Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 08 Dec 2008 15:56

See how the Delays in arms procurement and induction and all deals going through red tape harm national Security and preparedness. if we had

1.Gorky
2.MRCA
3.LCA
4.Akula
5.Phalcons
6.Nag Ready
7.Astra ready
8.Arjuns
9.155mm guns probably Bofors

if we had these,Porkis wouldnt have even thought of doing a misadventure,all above were expected to be in service on or before 2008.

Ofcourse Above all we need balls at the first place

nsa_tanay · Post by **nsa_tanay** » 08 Dec 2008 16:03

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081208/j ... 221988.jsp

Undercover tag on catch by city cops

OUR BUREAU
Dec. 7: A SIM card suspect arrested by Calcutta police could be a counter-insurgency policeman from Kashmir on an undercover mission, according to highly placed sources.

If the claim is established, it will mean the law enforcement network unwittingly helped the Mumbai attackers procure communication cards. It will also blow the cover of an undercover operative, which puts his life and that of his family at risk.

Calcutta police, unaware that the suspect could be associated with counter-insurgency, though he screamed “I too am a police constable” at the time of his arrest in Delhi, had publicly announced his name yesterday. The Telegraph is mentioning his name as it is already in the public domain.

Mukhtar Ahmed was arrested after a SIM card found on a slain terrorist in Mumbai was traced to him, according to Calcutta police, which are still to verify whether he is a policeman.

The sources said senior police officers in Kashmir have demanded Mukhtar’s release, saying he was one of their own and had infiltrated the Lashkar-e-Toiba. However, Calcutta police said they had not heard from Kashmir.

The arrests of Mukhtar, 37, and Tausif Rehman, the Calcutta youth who allegedly bought 22 SIM cards for him, were the first after the Mumbai attacks.

“Several days back, my son told me he is going to Jammu. This morning, I received a call from him and he said he is fine and would be home in a day or two,” Mukhtar’s father said in Srinagar today.

The father, a shopkeeper, said his son was in the police and was working with a senior officer. “After reports that Mukhtar was arrested, I approached (the officer) and he told me my son is perfectly all right,” he added.

The officer, however, told The Telegraph in Srinagar: “I know nothing about him. There were thousands of policemen working under me (in his last posting).”

Kashmir police are not commenting on the arrest officially. “I have not been informed about the issue. How can I order an investigation when I have no information?” state police chief B. Srinivasan said.

But police sources said Mukhtar was on an undercover mission and had “successfully” penetrated the Lashkar. He was recruited some years ago after his brother Aijaz was killed by militants, and had been promoted as constable.

Such undercover operations have helped crush the Hizb-ul Mujahideen and fight the Lashkar and the Jaish-e-Mohammed, a source said.

“Lashkar men had sought his help for procuring some SIMs, for which he had approached Tausif Rehman in Bengal,” a source said. “The central agencies were informed about these SIMs and they were told to monitor them.”

One of those SIMs was found in the belt of slain terrorist Abu Ismail in Mumbai.

The sources said one phone connection was first activated on October 9 briefly, probably for testing. Thereafter, signals from the SIM were picked up on November 26 — the night of the Mumbai attacks, the sources added.

A senior police officer said: “Sometimes we use our men in counter-insurgency operations to provide SIM cards to (militant) outfits so that we track their plans down.”

Another source in Delhi said Calcutta police had gone by an alert from Mumbai and the eastern force would not have had any information on the counter-insurgency operation in Kashmir. “In intelligence operations, the left hand need not always know what the right hand is doing.”

However, the source added, Calcutta police should have verified Ahmed’s claim thoroughly as soon as he cried out that he was a constable. The reported site of the arrest in Delhi, the J&K House, should also have alerted the police to the possibility of a government link.

Calcutta special task force officer Rajeev Kumar said: “We inquired about it and there was no confirmation. We will request our counterparts in Jammu and Kashmir to inform us in writing about Mukhtar’s background.”

He underscored that terror charges had not been pressed against Mukhtar. “We booked him under the particular charges applicable for the crimes that he committed in Calcutta. Whether he had any role in the terror attack in Mumbai is for our counterparts in Mumbai to find out,” Kumar added.

niran · Post by **niran** » 08 Dec 2008 16:06

Mistah N^2, Saarji war is not won by whining over and waiting for
better weapons, but "He who uses best, what he has will win" nuff said.
IMHO now is the time, what with Unkil and others hands forced to
slap their pet, take back POK, Balkanize Pakeistan.

bart · Post by **bart** » 08 Dec 2008 16:22

Gerard wrote:Naxal Ram is an expert in International Relations...

Use U.N. Security Council Resolution 1373 to bring pressure on Pakistan, says N. Ram

This is pure and simple a diversionary tactic by the leftwing crazies with their own agenda. They know that will go nowhere, but point it out to appear to show solidarity with India's cause. The guy is aptly nicknamed Naxal Ram.

nsa_tanay · Post by **nsa_tanay** » 08 Dec 2008 16:23

SK Mody wrote:I got the following url in my mail:
STRATFOR-strategic_motivations_mumbai_attack
Please comment.

A December 2001 Islamist attack on the Indian parliament triggered an intense confrontation between India and Pakistan. Since then, New Delhi has not responded in a dramatic fashion to numerous Islamist attacks against India that were traceable to Pakistan. The Mumbai attack, by contrast, aimed to force a response from New Delhi by being so grievous that any Indian government showing only a muted reaction to it would fall.

Very Interesting and intellectual document. The point is, why some element in Pakistan wants a vigorous response from India, in the form of a military attack ?

Point to think and ponder, pals.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 08 Dec 2008 16:51

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 08 Dec 2008 17:01

Salute the brave constables of D B Marg police station

December 08, 2008
Let me begin this column on a personal note. I spent the last years of college in Mumbai (then Bombay). I cut my teeth as a journalist in Mumbai. It was to Mumbai that I brought my wife after my marriage. In all those years I never thought of the Taj Mahal Hotel [Images] as an 'icon,' which is how seemingly all my journalistic brethren refer to it today. If anything it was VT -- now Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus [Images] -- that was a touchstone of my life, not the Taj Mahal Hotel.

Given the frequent references to how 'all of us' visit 'the Taj' -- no other identification required! -- young reporters today enjoy a different lifestyle. Back then I met very few CEOs in the elegant suites at the Taj but did spend time with SHOs in police stations on the crime beat. It is to such men, the policemen in those grimy rooms, that I respectfully dedicate this column.

A few days ago as you read this there was a simple ceremony at the not-so-iconic D B Marg police station, when garlands were placed around the photograph of Assistant Police Inspector Tukaram Gopal Ombale. Were there any reporters present to honour Ombale's tale of heartbreaking courage?

On the night of 26-27 November, Ombale and several other policemen were on alert in the Girgaum Chowpatty [Images] area. They had been told that two terrorists were on the run in a Skoda. The twenty policemen out there had a grand total of two self-loading rifles and two bullet-proof vests. The vests were given to the men with the rifles, who were placed at vantage points around metal barricades. The rest of the policemen carried only lathis (batons)); some were plainclothesmen, others in uniform.

Those (virtually unarmed) policemen tried to stop the Skoda. The driver fired at them. The police shot back from the pre-determined vantage point and got him. The other man slid out, pretending to surrender, but carrying an AK-47.

Ombale rushed to secure him when the terrorist started pumping away with the AK-47. Call it guts or instinct but Tukaram Gopal Ombale refused to let go of his assailant. I am told that something like 30 bullets were recovered from his body.

His colleagues took advantage of Ombale's last act as they rushed at the terrorist with their lathis. The plainclothesmen were later identified as a 'mob' in grainy footage shot by someone on a mobile phone!

Tukaram Gopal Ombale died for his bravery. Assistant Police Inspector Sanjay Govilkar received bullet injuries. But those ordinary policemen -- some in their forties, laughably ill-equipped -- succeeded in doing what nobody else could, they captured a terrorist on a suicide mission alive. They also recovered artillery dwarfing their modest weapons -- AK-47s, several magazines, 9mm pistols, and grenades.

Today security agencies from across the planet are sending men to Mumbai, from the FBI, the CIA, Britain's MI-6, Israel's Mossad and Shin Bet, and even from Russia [Images]. Between them, they have mixed opinions of the Indian security forces' tactics -- especially the Israelis -- but to a man they salute those constables from D B Road police station.

There is nothing they prize more than information, and that is what they are extracting from the captured terrorist -- how he was recruited, how, and where, and by whom he was trained, and so forth.

Every major nation, even the Chinese, have problems with Muslim fundamentalists, yet none could capture a suicide attacker trained from the Al Qaeda [Images] manual. That honour goes only to the Mumbai police.

These were ordinary constables, not trained men from the Anti-Terrorist Squad, the Black Cats, or the Marine Commandos. I would love to say that their naked courage has been honoured by a renewed determination to fight terrorism but it would be untrue.

With one accord everyone is rushing to place all the blame at Pakistan's doors. I do believe the ten terrorists who carried out the actual attacks were indeed all from Pakistan, but it stretches credulity to breaking point to believe that there was no local support.

Investigators say there is no way that just ten men carried all that equipment, including timers and explosives, into the Taj Mahal hotel, so who smuggled it all in? Can men setting foot in the city for the first time really negotiate Mumbai's network of streets without guides to find Nariman House?

What of the politicians? What was the situation in Mumbai in the week after a weary NSG leader confirmed that the last terrorist had been killed in the Taj Mahal hotel?

No chief minister. No home minister. No replacement for the chief of the Anti-Terrorist Squad. A director general of police fighting for his office.

Maharashtra Director General of Police A N Roy was appointed amid controversy several months ago; the appointment was quashed by the Central Administrative Tribunal on October 8, 2008, and he is now battling it out in the high court.

Sharad Pawar [Images] named Chhagan Bhujbal as a replacement for former Maharashtra home minister R R Patil, but he could not take office until the Congress got its act together because you cannot have ministers without a chief minister.

The Congress loves to accuse others of playing 'politics as usual.' What do you think kept the party from selecting a new chief minister if not 'politics as usual' -- with more to come from Narayan Rane [Images]?

So Sonia Gandhi [Images] packed off the external affairs minister and the defence minister to Mumbai -- not to inspect the security situation, but to find a new chief minister. These are precisely the two ministers who must be in Delhi [Images] during an international crisis. Couldn't his mother have sent Rahul Gandhi [Images] in their place?

Few expect better of our politicians. But what of the media? It spent so much time around its beloved 'icon' that it almost forgot about VT -- or CST, call it what you will. There are roughly 13 million citizens of Mumbai. Do you think even a million of them have set foot in the 'icon?' But how many of those millions are not familiar with the railway station?

VT became a footnote to those reporters around the 'icon.' So, I fear, will be the names of Tukaram Gopal Ombale, and the other ordinary policemen with him, the likes of Hemant Bowdankar, Mangesh Yende, and Bhaskar Kadam. Can this ungrateful nation offer the living policemen and the families of the dead nothing but faded garlands around a photograph in a police station that today's journalists rarely bother to visit?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 08 Dec 2008 17:28

New York Times i thought was an atlanticist newspaper, adroit at hyphenation, but this time Pakis seem to be getting an earfull from NYT..

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/08/world ... l?ref=asia

Pakistan’s Spies Aided Group Tied to Mumbai Siege

American officials say there is no hard evidence to link the spy service, the Directorate for Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, to the Mumbai attacks. But the ISI has shared intelligence with Lashkar and provided protection for it, the officials said, and investigators are focusing on one Lashkar leader they believe is a main liaison with the spy service and a mastermind of the attacks.

Unlike Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, who have been forced to retreat to mountain redoubts in western Pakistan’s tribal areas, Lashkar commanders have been able to operate more or less in the open, behind the public face of a popular charity, with the implicit support of official Pakistani patrons, American officials said.

Looks Yanks are beginning to see what we've been seeing for decades..betta late than neva though..

adityaS · Post by **adityaS** » 08 Dec 2008 17:40

harbans: not sure, it might just be a case of all hot air and no (feasible) response from them.

In other news, it appears that a LeT leader has been arrested

Interesting little tidbit:

Even so, a US Office of Foreign Assets Control statement from June 1, 2006 listed at least four addresses for Dawood Ibrahim in Karachi, Pakistan:
617 CP Berar Society, Block 7-8, Karachi
House No. 37, Street 30, Phase V, Defense Housing Authority, Karachi
House No. 10, Hill Top Arcade, Defense Housing Authority, Karachi
Moin Palace, 2nd Floor, Opp Abdullah Shah Gazi Dargah, Clifton, Karachi

The Foreign Assets Control list also included Ibrahim's Dubai address: White House, Al-Wassal Road, Jumeira, Dubai, United Arab Emirates.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 08 Dec 2008 17:51

The Pakis are under pressure. Next step is to hand them over to us. Including that Gul dude. India must keep the pressure up. Pakistan should not be allowed to get away with this. No house arrest and stuff. These murderers must be got to trial on Indian soil where they mercilessly murdered innocents. If they don't then military options are a must!

PS: Right time to check deff n dumb..amazing hatred and typical paki denial and dishonesty in the face of truth shoved right up them.

adityaS · Post by **adityaS** » 08 Dec 2008 17:58

I hope they are under pressure - so far it looks like they are trying to save face (and our leaders will let them get away with that).

btw, what is deff and dumb? the way MMS normally reacts?

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 08 Dec 2008 18:02

This "crackdown" is bogus. We need to keep up the pressure. Next step:

1. Make them acknowledge the arrests of Lakhvi
2. Arrest Muzammil
3. Ban JuD and shut down Muridke
4. Try Lakhvi, Muzammil and Makki similar to Daniel Pearl killers but in open court

The demands must be steady and non-stop.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 08 Dec 2008 18:09

Even if they did arrest Zaki ur rehman, what are they going to do? They will put him in a paki court. Ask India/US to provide evidence. India might provide call intercepts, which will probably give away they technology india uses and the satellites that are being monitored. Which works out great for the paki's anyway - Remember V K Singh's book and the aftermath of handing over the kargil conversations. If we refuse, this guy will be released "Not enough evidence".

If Qasab's evidence is provided, his lawyers will just argue and say that was given under pressure from Kaafir security service.

Its all a charade, waste of time. Paki's just trying to take pressure off themselves. I don't understand why India didn't take any action against ISI after Kabul blasts. What about the people who are died in the many other attacks that we have faced in the last 5 years due to the ISI. What about the fake currency and numerous other activities that are supported by the ISI. We should have taken a stiffer action after Kabul blasts (When we had solid evidence of their involvement) or even Mumbai train blasts. But hey, no foreigners died in any of those attacks, so who cares.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 08 Dec 2008 18:19

John Snow wrote:kobe, in 1971, Mrs IG had balls,
Now in Delhi we have imported leader who does not have balls
Thats a huge difference

The two sentences sums up the thousand of tones of newsprint and GB+GB+Gb+ ... of bandwirdth used by everybody

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 08 Dec 2008 18:25

Raj Malhotra wrote:It is utter non-nonsense that the issue of equipping Police with modern arms is afflicted with Corruption or is too costly (i.e. budget issues). The equipment like weapons, ammo and BPJ will come from OFB or PSUs, so no corruption issues. While the center subsidizes the cost of such equipement from 50-80%, which means Bombay Police or the whole nation Police can re-armed by spending just 1% to 5% of their annual budget. The real reason is INDIFFERENCE-RED TAPE-DISINTEREST-CHALTA HAI

No Now the netas and babus will want the BEST equipment in the world for our poor police.

PS. OFB and PSUs do not give kickbacks !!!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 08 Dec 2008 18:32

The next step after each arrest is and should be this ONLY:

1. Buy a plane ticket and escort the scum under hand and feet cuffs to India.

There can be no other step in the intermediate between this.

If they did'nt feel humiliated murdering innocents then why feel humiliated to stand trial in India?

This is exactly what i stated earlier India should have negotiated in lieu of War.

PS: D n D is the famous Pakistani Defense Forum..if you haven't been there then there is an education waiting.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Dec 2008 18:54

pakis have no equivalent jassoo mithaiwala service.. read Rice's acceptance that they are so called stateless actors!!!!!

high hopes we have that pakis will act to return those terrorists to us. they just arrest and produce to their courts and return them back to pavillion.

no evidence found.. terrorist becomes national heroes of pakistan

gowri · Post by **gowri** » 08 Dec 2008 18:58

[quote="harbans"]New York Times i thought was an atlanticist newspaper, adroit at hyphenation, but this time Pakis seem to be getting an earfull from NYT..

An Op-ed in NYT by Patrick French. Interestingly, he talks specifically about hyphenation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/08/opinion/08french.html

adityaS · Post by **adityaS** » 08 Dec 2008 18:58

I don't think they will ever give us a former (and still influential) ISI chief, though the other two might be possible. Even D company boy is not likely, simply because of that guys "networking" in the corridors of power.

Still, we can hope, and be optimistic

(OT: PDF is real fun

I am hunting for gems of wisdumb there.)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Dec 2008 19:18

vdutta wrote:Salute the brave constables of D B Marg police station
Tukaram Gopal Ombale died for his bravery. Assistant Police Inspector Sanjay Govilkar received bullet injuries. But those ordinary policemen -- some in their forties, laughably ill-equipped -- succeeded in doing what nobody else could, they captured a terrorist on a suicide mission alive. They also recovered artillery dwarfing their modest weapons -- AK-47s, several magazines, 9mm pistols, and grenades.

Just watch the cops in the CST station video. Nobody can question their courage.

It is a crime to keep virtually unarmed policemen to perform such duties. I feel so sorry for them - watching that video.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Dec 2008 19:34

its a crime to have cops to wield batons against ak47s.

ezra · Post by **ezra** » 08 Dec 2008 19:51

[quote="vdutta On the night of 26-27 November, Ombale and several other policemen were on alert in the Girgaum Chowpatty [Images] area. They had been told that two terrorists were on the run in a Skoda. The twenty policemen out there had a grand total of two self-loading rifles and two bullet-proof vests. The vests were given to the men with the rifles, who were placed at vantage points around metal barricades. The rest of the policemen carried only lathis (batons)); some were plainclothesmen, others in uniform.

Those (virtually unarmed) policemen tried to stop the Skoda. The driver fired at them. The police shot back from the pre-determined vantage point and got him. The other man slid out, pretending to surrender, but carrying an AK-47.

Ombale rushed to secure him when the terrorist started pumping away with the AK-47. Call it guts or instinct but Tukaram Gopal Ombale refused to let go of his assailant. I am told that something like 30 bullets were recovered from his body.

I guess we will now witness the bureaucrats in the Government tripping over themselves to arm the police with modern weapons and bullet proof vests.
I have read news articles which report that there are funds available to purchase new weapons and BPV but due to widespread corruption and mismanagement the equipment was not obtained. If this is the case then deaths of those that perished are on the hands of the Government Bureaucrats responsible, who should face punishment.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 08 Dec 2008 19:53

Lets let Pukis obey us for now. let them arrest all those piglets and put them in one place. after that we will have three options.
1: we pay for their one way ticket to India
2: We send NSG to go get them.
3: We send them to hell by surgical strikes and let them claim their 72 owners.

Either we attack pig farms in porkistan now or we attack them later after they have obeyed our wishes. The later option is better as we also prove that we are their masters.

I know their strategy is to show the world that they are cooperating and prolong this issue until the world forgets about it. We need to make sure that we follow up on this.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 08 Dec 2008 20:01

ezra wrote:[quote="vdutta On the night of 26-27 November, Ombale and several other policemen were on alert in the Girgaum Chowpatty [Images] area. They had been told that two terrorists were on the run in a Skoda. The twenty policemen out there had a grand total of two self-loading rifles and two bullet-proof vests. The vests were given to the men with the rifles, who were placed at vantage points around metal barricades. The rest of the policemen carried only lathis (batons)); some were plainclothesmen, others in uniform.

Those (virtually unarmed) policemen tried to stop the Skoda. The driver fired at them. The police shot back from the pre-determined vantage point and got him. The other man slid out, pretending to surrender, but carrying an AK-47.

Ombale rushed to secure him when the terrorist started pumping away with the AK-47. Call it guts or instinct but Tukaram Gopal Ombale refused to let go of his assailant. I am told that something like 30 bullets were recovered from his body.

I guess we will now witness the bureaucrats in the Government tripping over themselves to arm the police with modern weapons and bullet proof vests.
I have read news articles which report that there are funds available to purchase new weapons and BPV but due to widespread corruption and mismanagement the equipment was not obtained. If this is the case then deaths of those that perished are on the hands of the Government Bureaucrats responsible, who should face punishment.

I work with police in USA and i can tell you that just giving them better weapons wont solve problem. There is a lot more that needs to be done.
1: After the adequate weapons are distributed it should be made mandatory for the cops to take firing test in every 18 months. if they fail then they need to take firearm course again.
2: They need to prove their physical fitness in every so many years. if they fail then they need to be sent back to academy.
3: Any sort of additional defensive training should pay extra. that will motivate cops to take extra defensive trainings.
4: Preference should be given to young ex military personals from fighting units.
above is the minimum steps to be taken. there are many more but they can wait.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 08 Dec 2008 20:08

I feel immense sorrow,guilt and am truly humbled at the sacrifice of ordinary people who make up our NSG, Police, Soldiers and officers, whose courage I can proudly say is unparalled. They hardly ever complain about equipment or conditions of service or political abuse heaped on them.

No amount LCAs, Groshkovs, SUs Baraks, can inspire confidence with out these people soldiers, they are worth their weight in gold and all are volunteer soldiers.
Thank you Thank you
Jai Hind

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Dec 2008 20:11

vdutta, your first step has flaws... while your bank account reflects the transaction amount to ISI/pak gov, the PIA flight would land with some street beggars in i-slama-bad.. next headlines, "miraculous escape /great escape by terrorists"... plane swap happens, pilots at gun point, lands in khandhara, and all terrorists are now part of afghanistan control.

you don't need tom clansy to think about well known pigs.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 08 Dec 2008 20:13

SaiK wrote:its a crime to have cops to wield batons against ak47s.

Its human rights violation to feed baton wielding police against AK47s

arun · Post by **arun** » 08 Dec 2008 20:27

X Post:

Hindus and Western extremist and Mossad behind Mumbai terrorist attacks

Pakistan Daily

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 08 Dec 2008 20:33

18 months is too long. These guys should go to the firing range once a month or atleast once in two months. They need to have confidence in their guns, bullets and operating procedures.

skher · Post by **skher** » 08 Dec 2008 20:36

Sanku wrote:
Tanaji wrote:I have a very stupid, naive but an honest question:

Why do all terrorists carry ID cards conveniently?
So that they can catch the plane when they are done. (not joking)

So CISF / BCAS shld question ppl with ID cards......most of us SDREs don't bother....the person who has a particularly shiny ID and has a lot of personal documents....is suspicious customer.

The Indians who currently bother themselves with ID are high ranking govt. officials or Politicos....potential candidates for a jail term themselves.

Hopefully,the situation should change when every Xth pass has a national ID card and a citzen database is maintained.
But for this to be effective,the BD illegal problem must be solved pro-actively....something unlikely as they're a votebank in themselves.

This must be done before the Commonwealth Games 2010.....jannat for jihadis.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 08 Dec 2008 20:39

HariC wrote:18 months is too long. These guys should go to the firing range once a month or atleast once in two months. They need to have confidence in their guns, bullets and operating procedures.

18 months is not to go for practice. i think they should practice every week.
18 months is for the firearm exam. they need to re-certify themselves in every 18 months. typical score to qualify is 96/100.
If you fail, you need to take firearm course again...

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 08 Dec 2008 20:43

The danger, of course, is that India is a nation intended for Indians to live in peace and enjoy life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Combat training for urban policemen sounds fine and dandy, except that the primary purpose of urban police is to serve the law-abiding public.

Look again at those two pictures:
1. The policeman at Chattrapati Shivaji railway Terminal: WW1 rifle slung over his right shoulder, left hand guiding that old gentleman through the blood and gore and scattered personal belongings, to safety.

2. The policeman (outside the Taj?) applying the oxygen mask to the baby pulled out of the fire, with all the soot on his little face.

THIS is Indian police. The other problem should be solved, not by training Indian policemen to be Green Berets or Black Cats, but with the national will to do what is needed to let Indians live in peace, enjoying life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

GIVE PEACE A CHANCE. DESTROY TERRORIST PAKISTAN

All our collective might worldwide must be focused on solving THAT problem, not on training policemen to aim Uzis at the public.

The real point of that article is being missed. With all the Black Cats and Green Berets and Delta Forces and SAS and Mossad, it took a team of Mumbai cops to CATCH A SUICIDE TERRORIST ALIVE.

BECAUSE THEY ARE TRAINED TO CATCH PETTY CROOKS ALIVE, NOT TO SHOOT THEM DEAD.
The Black Cats (bless their brave hearts!) came out dragging the terrorists in pieces, and when asked if they had tried to take any alive, responded:

Who has any need for these scum alive?

And they HAD the bulletproof vests and combat helmets and super training, and they were attacking terrorists who had been exhausted from 3 days of siege.

Tell me, who really won this for India? ALL the pressure that Pakistan now faces is because the Mumbai cops caught the one scumbag alive, not because the rest helped the other terrorist to proceed to houristan (and it appears that they allowed several to escape).

Just a perspective from another angle....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Dec 2008 20:53

One of the reasons why corrupt cops are so rampant is that the level of discipline is not high - along with salaries, accountability and responsibility. The average cop in Indis gets the amount of attention that the average fruit vendor - blown up in so many bomb blasts in india, gets.

So the cop is an adult version of an errant schoolboy with vastly more power and a bad reputation.

Ar\ming and training cops to inculcate discipline and responsibility is likely to reduce the ease level of misuse of power by cops and would probably have the salutary side effect of making him less pliable to the usual demands.

The underworld hardly gives a damn for the average pandu and that suits a lot of people, private and public servants included.

Having a more disciplined and trained police force upsets a whole lot balancing acts that now exist with criminals and others in cahoots with officials with impotent irresponsible cops watching.

It can be done. For example Bangalore started an intensive training course for bus drivers in road manners and courtesy - and this shows on the roads - with government buses "behaving" far better than pvt buses.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 08 Dec 2008 21:04

neelkamal wrote:NGO helping Mumbai victims, just in case you want to pass it along - you can donate in USD, etc also, tax exempt.....

Neelkamal - Can you (or others who are familiar with these) x post these links (and you reco) in Action Thread also please. More than one person has inquired for it and it is a good way to show support. Narayanji - Is IDRF is partnering with anyone? Thanks in advance. (I want to keep people away from any SINGH (Secular India's National Growth and Harmony") type fraud, as I am sure, those are going to do what they do)

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Dec 2008 21:10

Pakistan is under intense pressure to act against militants
Pakistan's armed forces have moved against a camp used by banned militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba in Pakistani-administered Kashmir.

Witnesses heard several loud explosions and saw a helicopter and dozens of army personnel at the scene.

Pakis sure have mastered the art of dramabaazi after repeated rehearsals in FATA to visiting journalists.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 08 Dec 2008 21:15

GopalVaidya wrote:
Amber G. wrote:Chicago Tribune's Kim Barker confirms Observer, Guadian and McClatchy Newspapers' reporter story - The story is further confirmed by NawasSharif .

Here is the link:
Mumbai attacker linked to Pakistani village
This information is now publicly available for 2 days. Yet, not one of the Pakistani TV or papers have done any investigation.... It's nation completely lacking in decency or integrity.

Sent an email to Larry King, to see if he can follow it up with Zaradari. Z on LK's show said that he does not think that Kasab was from Pakistan at all.. yet from Kim Barker's story its evident that NS and official knew that. quite early .. so Z must have known it too when Z was telling a lie on the show..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Dec 2008 21:24

police system should be divided into two major sections. one for handling regular civilian security and handle petty thiefs and things like that. again, no use.. my mother was chain snatched from bangalore bus.. no complaints can get her back her chain.. but she is alive cause, it was stolen in stealth. thanks to the robber. so, this is something the regular police setup have to chase after.. for that example, the bus system could prevent standing passenger for not more than 20% of seating capacity- by increasing the number of service or timing the service such that they handle crowd appropriately.. the same could have been handled better by providing a metro system such that people use bus less.. the chain of chaos theory helps in inter relating various events that happen. simply put, we have more demand to supply., and thats the way we live, and like to live in India.

How do we police such a setup is by more cops and cop units. Every bus has couple of cops, or cop seats reserved.. he is only trained to run and catch the thief, and erring idiots. he must be trained not to abuse citizens or even the petty criminal.

now, that should take care of few civilian setups.. of course not the least, but what i am pointing is we need a holistic view to this setup.

for terror, we need a quick reaction group for every city, at least 100-500 men depending on the size and class of city, NSG units. they can get transfered to various cities, and get exposures periodically.

naval assets needs improvement.. we need to prevent small vessels to be used by terrorists. we need 300 fast attack boats for Coast Guard., and setup a sagar maala of naval setup to handle terrorist coming in.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 08 Dec 2008 21:27

why cant we return favor in Karachi etc?

Unless ofcourse we are mindful of costs.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 08 Dec 2008 21:40

John Snow wrote:why cant we return favor in Karachi etc?

Unless ofcourse we are mindful of costs.

Precisely.. it is appropriate for a seaborne attack.

And takeout the naval offensive capabilities as the price. Agosta's in water and on land!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Dec 2008 21:45

N^3, FYEO!

anupmisra wrote: