Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 09 Dec 2008 01:45

This is not the thread to delve into politics but one post from me too.

I think that we need to seriously reconsider BJP's chances this general election of coming to power. They lost Delhi, a state with an anti-incumbency factor, and people cribbing about price rise and security.
Many reasons are being forwarded by the BJP wallahs now.
1. Poor choice of Candidates
2. No strong CM / Leadership candidate here.

If the BJP wasn't able to resolve these issues and prepare beforehand, then god help them and god help this country. For the only rising opposition we have now is Mayawati and the left is still there.

I was developing a theory but Rajasthan blows it apart. That of a feminine touch.
Congress has Sonia Gandhi and Sheila Dixit to coo softly to the women and dhimmi voting public, (This ain't the US where people will see through the falsehood of a sarah palin, and see the seriousness and intent of purpose that Obama and Biden represented).
The all man team that the BJP brings to fore, is all serious and result driven, but they are all men. The women that the BJP has managed to attract to the top levels are all sadhvi types. How do you expect nearly 50% of the voting public - the women to vote for these? Of course a feminine Sonia Gandhi will win the battle with a smile and a ta-ta that loads of dry lecturebazi from a BJP-ite will not. This is not dhimmitude - this is biology and sixth sense operating here. People feel secure when a happy family picture is painted before them, they feel that they know the gandhis through thick and thin.
I've spoken to politicians and the common refrain is that for people to vote for a candidate they must've heard of that bugger at some point earlier - usually doesn't matter if he was last mentioned in a criminal case. If he's made the news, chances are that he'll get some votes too - as opposed to some doctor or college professor who'll run but is completely unknown.

Lots of loose ends in this ramble, Just my thoughts.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 09 Dec 2008 01:49

For guru logs here ... Courtesy google ...

The alleged sites where Lakhwi was allegedly arrested
Shawai nullah
and
JUD office

Side note: - Can this be converted to crater located at r 18.6N and 5.2E on the moon (the name is crater osama - no I am not making that up) .

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 09 Dec 2008 01:51

john snow sir

the whole of india is a seive
water plants
IT parks
busstops and train station (Already done)

each of these can easily cripple a city to cripple hundreds of families
anyone working in indian environment can tell it is just a disaster waiting to happen
its a matter of time.

point is not to make india a police state, but to take the fight into pakistan by attacking them 10x worse at JUD office, at all recruiting rallies, at hitting back on ISI
but this is what shows the utter moral cowardliness of indian leaders
people like gujral would be ok with indian dying in attack but shut down covert ops capability and were indian leader after that sleeping?
was MMS sleeping till now (only got awake when haneef got into trouble)

such is the way of a cowardly unfeeling leadership who are surrounded by layer and layer of security provided by indian taxpayers and lives of indian rural youth who join armed forces and are sent to protect these people
when even they are hurt, these worthy dont care
SPG budget for these "worthy people" was 11 crorers more than budget for entire NSG
just think of how shameless these people are

psaggu

yes correct. many reasons can be given - yours is also correct and valid to a large degree, but think of it this way and it is more depressing, the indian women will vote for SG and then cry uselessly when it is her kid who is hurt, but SG of course has SPG to protect her and her kith and kin valuable lives.
(the "prince" was partying on night of mumbai attack)
useless commoner like me did not sleep all night in anger --> i am sure there will be others like me among you also
so who is the actual fool, the prince or us?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 09 Dec 2008 02:21

Was talking to a lady in my office who just came back from desh and was in Delhi airport when the “shooting incident” BBC was talking about happened.

She said that people had to literally hide under the chairs as bullets were flying in the lounge (post security) for 20 30 minutes.…She could not see if there were any casualties.

it is possible that the gov’t and international media has suppressed the story of the shooting to prevent the situation from further deterioriation.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Dec 2008 02:23

Paul wrote:Was talking to a lady in my office who just came back from desh and was in Delhi airport when the “shooting incident” BBC was talking about happened.

She said that people had to literally hide under the chairs as bullets were flying in the lounge (post security) for 20 30 minutes.…She could not see if there were any casualties.

it is possible that the gov’t and international media has suppressed the story of the shooting to prevent the situation from further deterioriation.

given how information has been gushing out of the different security forces over the past week, i find it hard to imagine that such a big cover up is underway in Delhi

but I am willing to be persuaded!

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 09 Dec 2008 03:26

If each of us carried a gun...

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Dec 2008 03:30

Lalmohan wrote:
given how information has been gushing out of the different security forces over the past week, i find it hard to imagine that such a big cover up is underway in Delhi

but I am willing to be persuaded!

My friend landed in Delhi yesterday R2I and he said everything is fine. More security

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Dec 2008 03:41

MUST READ!!!!! WHAT A WONDERFUL ARTICLE BY AN
EDITOR OF TIMES OF INDIA

LETTER TO PRIMEMINISTER

Dear Mr. Prime minister,

I am a typical mouse from Mumbai. In the local
train compartment which has capacity of 100
persons, I travel with 500 more mouse. Mouse at
least squeak but we don't even do that.

Today I heard your speech. In which you said 'NO
BODY WOULD BE SPARED'. I would like to remind you
that fourteen years has passed since serial bomb
blast in Mumbai took place. Dawood was the main
conspirator. Till today he is not caught. All our
bolywood actors, our builders, our Gutka king
meets him but your Government can not catch him.
Reason is simple; all your ministers are hand in
glove with him. If any attempt is made to catch
him everybody will be exposed. Your statement
'NOBODY WOULD BE SPARED' is nothing but a cruel
joke on this unfortunate people of India.

Enough is enough. As such after seeing terrorist
attack carried out by about a dozen young boys I
realize that if same thing continues days are not
away when terrorist will attack by air, destroy
our nuclear reactor and there will be one more
Hiroshima.

We the people are left with only one mantra. Womb
to Bomb to Tomb. You promised Mumbaikar Shanghai
what you have given us is Jalianwala Baug.

Today only your home minister resigned. What took
you so long to kick out this joker? Only reason
was that he was loyal to Gandhi family. Loyalty to
Gandhi family is more important than blood of
innocent people, isn't it?

I am born and bought up in Mumbai for last fifty
eight years. Believe me corruption in Maharashtra
is worse than that in Bihar. Look at all the
politician, Sharad Pawar, Chagan Bhujbal, Narayan
Rane, Bal Thackray , Gopinath Munde, Raj Thackray,
Vilasrao Deshmukh all are rolling in money.
Vilasrao Deshmukh is one of the worst Chief
minister I have seen. His only business is to
increase the FSI every other day, make money and
send it to Delhi so Congress can fight next
election. Now the clown has found new way and will
increase FSI for fisherman so they can build
concrete house right on sea shore. Next time
terrorist can comfortably live in those house ,
enjoy the beauty of sea and then attack the Mumbai
at their will.

Recently I had to purchase house in Mumbai. I met
about two dozen builders. Everybody wanted about
30% in black. A common person like me knows this
and with all your intelligent agency & CBI you and
your finance minister are not aware of it. Where
all the black money goes? To the underworld isn't
it? Our politicians take help of these goondas to
vacate people by force. I myself was victim of it.
If you have time please come to me, I will tell
you everything.

If this has been land of fools, idiots then I
would not have ever cared to write you this
letter. Just see the tragedy, on one side we are
reaching moon, people are so intelligent and on
other side you politician has converted nectar
into deadly poison. I am everything Hindu, Muslim,
Christian, Schedule caste, OBC, Muslim OBC,
Christian Schedule caste, Creamy Schedule caste
only what I am not is INDIAN. You politician have
raped every part of mother India by your policy of
divide and rule.

Take example of former president Abdul Kalam. Such
a intelligent person, such a fine human being. You
politician didn't even spare him. Your party
along with opposition joined the hands, because
politician feels they are supreme and there is no
place for good person.

Dear Mr Prime minister you are one of the most
intelligent person, most learned person. Just wake
up, be a real SARDAR. First and foremost expose
all selfish politician. Ask Swiss bank to give
name of all Indian account holder. Give reins of
CBI to independent agency. Let them find wolf
among us. There will be political upheaval but
that will better than dance of death which we are
witnessing every day. Just give us ambient where
we can work honestly and without fear. Let there
be rule of law. Everything else will be taken care
of.

Choice is yours Mr. Prime Minister. Do you want to
be lead by one person or you want to lead the
nation of 100 Crore people?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 09 Dec 2008 03:53

Sound, fury and arrest of ‘mastermind’ in PoK - Pakistan launches crackdown but rejects handover of old suspects, India assessing ‘seriousness’ by Nasir Jaffry: The Telegraph, Calcutta

To be honest, I am afraid of the way this is playing out.

Either Pakistan is going to say, they will prosecute Ziaur Rehman Lakhvi in Pakistan, thereby forcing India to supply evidence against this guy, and the court will throw out the case, on technical grounds or because all the evidence would be hear-say, claim and counter-claim. Pakistan may even force Kasab to be brought back to Pakistan for the hearings, and if India rejects that, than the case could be closed. If Kasab is brought to Pakistan, in case of acquittal of Lakhvi, it could mean that the whole case falls apart, and even Kasab, being a Pakistani citizen is allowed to go.

Even if Lakhvi is extradited to India, he may still be acquitted because it would be just Kasab's claim, that Lakhvi recruited him, and the case could again fall apart. Pakistan may not cooperate in supplying evidence against the guy, evidence that would be plenty in Pakistan.

We need another Law, handling terrorism cases as different than law and order cases, a Law which deals with evidence differently.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Dec 2008 03:56

Dec 8, 2008

There is growing anger against the English Media - an anger which the media can ignore only at its peril -- RR

from: Radha Rajan
date: Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 5:47 AM
subject: English media - taste of their own medicine?

The English media has lost the faith of good ordinary Hindus today. There is so much distrust, dislike and even intense anger against 2 24 hr English news channels, 3 English newspapers and one or two political journals that the ordinary good Hindu will today believe any negative news about them. Any negative news. The media persons must pay heed to this sentiment for their own credibility and durability.

I request all of you to take a look at the center page (Sunday Special) of Deccan Chronicle today titled 'when the box became an idiot'. There are 5 columns big and small on this page and ALL OF THEM have not only hit out sharply at all the media but specifically at 2 channels and 2 people by name - the same 2 names whom I had castigated 5 yrs ago for their near hysterical outbursts with blotched faces and tear-filled eyes all because the president of india had applied the brakes on Sonia Gandhi's towering ambitions to return colonial rule to India.

The orgy of sorrow was to have been seen to be believed.

The lady has been put squarely in the dock by all these columnists and not one of them is even mildly rebuking. The criticism is harsh, unapologetic and totally deserved. The lady's penchant to put her arms around muslim men in commisseration on ALL HER SHOWS I thought only I remarked about but so has this person Genesia Tahilramani too.

I just watched Rajdeep Sardesai responding to a polite question from one of his own colleagues on his own channel about giving out operational details which endangered lives, particularly with reference to the same lady and others.

Dear Rajdeep said something wholly hilarious. He said this is serious criticism but 'at the end of the day we need hard evidence'.

Fair enough rajdeep but what is the hard evidence that your channel or NDTV have when all of you along with Hemant karkare went hunting for saffron terror, Hindu fundamentalists, RSS killed Gandhi (oh yes I heard all the insinuating, nod nod wink wink allusions).

There was no evidence not one bit of hard evidence to materialize the Hindu terrorist but that did not stop Rajdeep S's channel or Barkha Dutt's channel from going on and on and on and on and on...

It will be a taste of the media's own medicine if these stories refuse to die down and these 2 channels are held responsible for endangering the lives of our men in uniform and our hostages.

Pontificating to politicians must stop, the virulent anti-Hindu posturing if it does not stop, will result in diminishing viewership. I watched only Times Now for 60 hrs. Arnab Goswami came thru as honest, caring and responsible.

There is growing anger against the English media - an anger which the media can ignore only at its peril.

-- RR

http://sarvesamachar.com/click_frameset ... glish.html

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 09 Dec 2008 04:00

Any person who believes in the inherent goodness and decency of elected officials (in any country) is an idiot.

Remember, no politician can even contemplate doing the "right" thing unless they are scared about their continued existence. Whether the threat is a lynch mob or judicial censure is largely irrelevant, it just has to a real and credible threat.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 09 Dec 2008 04:09

An 18-year-old Mumbai students asks why she's considered a burden to the country's polticians

Our Home Minister, the Hon Mr Shivraj Patil has resigned.

The Hon M. Shivraj Patil has very graciously taken moral responsibility for the Mumbai attacks. One's heart goes out to the Hon Mr Shivraj Patil, who will forever be remembered fondly as one who housed no bitterness in his heart when he resigned, after failing to do his job and protect the citizens of his country.

The Hon Mr Shivraj Patil must be a very relieved man as well. I'm guessing that's what he implied when he said that he felt that a great burden had been lifted off his shoulders. It is a pity when one has a job that one is not particularly fond of.

I'm awfully sorry for the Hon Mr Shivraj Patil, that he wasn't briefed about the responsibilities of the post of the Home Minister when he was sworn into office. Such a shame, really. How could one have been so inconsiderate to the Hon Mr Shivraj Patil? I truly hope he is happier, now that the burden of a nation's security is off his shoulders and now that he has washed his people's blood off his fair, moisturised hands.

I hope I don't sound too bitter. I'm trying to emulate the Hon Mr Shivraj Patil, but I don't have the same amount of graciousness or dignity he does. So, I'm going to allow myself this rant.

What did Mr Patil mean when he said he didn't feel bitter?
What is it that HE ought to be bitter about?
That he didn't do his job?
That he let people die because of his soft stand on terrorism?
That he muttered and mumbled and simpered long enough for two-dozen, well-armed men to hold a city to ransom like this?
What is HE bitter about?

If his job was such a burden, why didn't he step down long before this and let someone else do his job?
How dare he imply that the lives of all those who died, because HE let them down, was a burden?

Dear Sir, this is not about how this has affected you. This is not about you.

It is about this country and its people - one that you let down.
One that you have given enough cause to be bitter about.

The Hon Mr Shivraj Patil is only a symbol of our entire political system. Not being a political science student, I don't know what exactly political science students are taught about election campaigns. But I'm sure that professors of this subject will agree with me when I say that a hostage situation is not one that you milk for votes. A terrorist attack is not one that you utilise to gain power at the Centre. You don't use your peoples' blood to colour your money, your power and your posts.
What do we do? I don't know. I have no answers.

Can we threaten to not vote until all our leaders collectively take steps to ensure that we no longer fall prey to negligence of this kind?

What do we do? Sit quiet and wait for everybody in this government to resign, so that another equally inefficient and corrupt government can come to power?

All I have are questions and a few, minimal expectations. I want somebody who doesn't consider the people he's serving a burden.

One that won't request me to fall back on my spirit to tide through terror attacks. One that will realise that power is not a tool to be used for personal gain.

This is not about whether our leaders feel morally responsible, or whether they feel they've failed us. This is about making sure they never fail us again.
S R is an 18-year-old,
*YBA student studying at St Xavier's College in Mumbai

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 09 Dec 2008 04:12

I, for one, contest this british leftist elitist take on guns. The reality is that gun control is social control (in its ultimate form). Anyone who tells you that they alone know "what is good for you" because they are "better educated" without sound reasoning and scrutiny about their motivations are liars. I can write a lot about this topic with many historical examples.

Just one quick example- How did Nehru's Fabian socialism work out? Did it make indians richer, healthier or wealthier? Did it make india a safer country? Less corrupt? Can you deny that India functions despite the best efforts of its "planners"?

History has repeatedly shown that rulers never have the best interest of the ruled in their mind. They are just interested in maintaining control and status quo.

Gerard wrote:If each of us carried a gun...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Dec 2008 04:33

i am with the author, and if every one licensed can own a gun, there could be many corruption off the table to start with.. expectedly i can imagine hypothetically, there would be initially a billion country be reduced to a 1/2 billion.. and then a stable option will appear, with more and more responsible persons keeping the guns only for range practice use. by way of this, we would be resurrecting the neighborhood as well obeying the new gun laws.

amrika is a land that is seemingly peaceful, but at the same time is notoriously high crime oriented place on the planet.. there is a trade off.. but all these aspects, comes to one sense, that democracy is more important than any thing else.. democracy is only for the responsible.. if people are irresponsible, they might as well live in pakistan or in the jail (assumption: Jaswant Singh or his kind will never take up serious political position).

instead of guns, i am more with batons.. that is dual use.. has laser sight targeting, and renders non-lethal but crippling shock wave, rechargeable battery powered. this is more useful for our society and setup. can do wonders for both police and people to strike at petty thiefs, goondas, and rowdies.

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 09 Dec 2008 05:00

A better idea- license for automatic weapons. Let people buy semi-automatic weapons with the same ease they can buy a TV.

You might have noticed that terrorists have no problems with obtaining automatic weapons. I believe that the peculiar Indian obsession with non-violence and abhorrence towards weapons has cost us millions of lives over centuries- but hey, keep going down that road if you want to...

PS. Do you think anyone can invade America like muslims invaded India? And most of the gun deaths in USA are gang on gang violence.

i am with the author, and if every one licensed can own a gun, there could be many corruption off the table to start with.. expectedly i can imagine hypothetically, there would be initially a billion country be reduced to a 1/2 billion.. and then a stable option will appear, with more and more responsible persons keeping the guns only for range practice use. by way of this, we would be resurrecting the neighborhood as well obeying the new gun laws.

amrika is a land that is seemingly peaceful, but at the same time is notoriously high crime oriented place on the planet.. there is a trade off.. but all these aspects, comes to one sense, that democracy is more important than any thing else.. democracy is only for the responsible.. if people are irresponsible, they might as well live in pakistan or in the jail (assumption: Jaswant Singh or his kind will never take up serious political position).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2008 05:26

ramana wrote:Looking at the Delhi elections, there is very little chance that the INC will get booted out in Maharastra. Might even get full majority and not need the Pawar gang. People like their terrorist supporters to rule them. Maybe its Stockholm syndrome. But htey have spoken. Its only the chatterati who think they can make a difference over caste and votebank.

Ramana that is because individuals matter. At a local level the individual is king, not the party. Parties come and try and gobble up/absorb individuals who are capable, and vise versa - they try to destroy independents who are capable, who would grab votes.

For every party, this is "deniable". It is not the party candidate ho does he damage - or spreads rumors - they are party functionaries - the hangers on.

In Bangalore for example - nobody would vote for a BJP candidate known to be a corrupt bum, but would gladly vote for a JDS candidate who is known to be efficient.

National elections are different. National issues come to the fore. The party that can make capital from a national issue all over this huge country will win.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 09 Dec 2008 06:07

ss_roy wrote:A better idea- license for automatic weapons. Let people buy semi-automatic weapons with the same ease they can buy a TV.

You might have noticed that terrorists have no problems with obtaining automatic weapons. I believe that the peculiar Indian obsession with non-violence and abhorrence towards weapons has cost us millions of lives over centuries- but hey, keep going down that road if you want to...

PS. Do you think anyone can invade America like muslims invaded India? And most of the gun deaths in USA are gang on gang violence.

i am with the author, and if every one licensed can own a gun, there could be many corruption off the table to start with.. expectedly i can imagine hypothetically, there would be initially a billion country be reduced to a 1/2 billion.. and then a stable option will appear, with more and more responsible persons keeping the guns only for range practice use. by way of this, we would be resurrecting the neighborhood as well obeying the new gun laws.

amrika is a land that is seemingly peaceful, but at the same time is notoriously high crime oriented place on the planet.. there is a trade off.. but all these aspects, comes to one sense, that democracy is more important than any thing else.. democracy is only for the responsible.. if people are irresponsible, they might as well live in pakistan or in the jail (assumption: Jaswant Singh or his kind will never take up serious political position).

Are licensed citizens allowed to carry Handguns (let alone Automatic weapons) openly in USA? Or are they allowed to carry concealed weapon? What the restrictions on carrying licensed weapons?

How many Terrorist attacks have taken place in Britain or EU or Japan which have similar gun control laws as India?

Arming ordinary citizens is no answer to failure of gov. to protect it's citizens. To be competent with a firearm you need intense training (which even our policemen lack) and you need tactical training to handle the situation. Without proper training these armed citizens will end up as a danger to themself and to others around them.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 09 Dec 2008 06:08

I am spamming this all over, no apologies. ACT!
OK, folks, please propagate this one far and wide. It hits the right spots.

Please Don’t Use My Tax Dollars To Fund Terrorism
http://www.petitiononline.com/NoPak/petition.html

SIMPLE MESSAGE: STOP FUNDING PAKISTANI TERRORISM: THE LIFE YOU SAVE MAY BE YOUR OWN, OR THAT OF SOMEONE YOU LOVE!

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 09 Dec 2008 06:37

Most states in the US do not require you to obtain any license to buy a semi-automatic gun (long gun or handgun). Over 45 states allow 'concealed carry' as long you have no criminal record (they cannot refuse you if you are "clean"). Most states allow you to carry your weapons openly on your property or in your vehicle to any place you visit (with exceptions like church, universities, schools, army bases etc). Many states allow you to have guns in your car at work.

The reality is that elected government officials (and supporting babus) has failed their citizens once again. How long are you going to wait for them to change their ways? They will keep screwing up because their vote banks will keep voting them back.

As far as competency in firearm use is concerned:

How hard is it to train a willing woman to shoot a 9mm glock at a 2 x 2 (feet) target from 20-50 feet (3 out of 5 shots hit target)?

or

How hard is it to train an average willing adult to shoot a 5.56 mm semi-auto carbine with a simple red dot sight at a 2x 2 (feet) target from 150-300 feet (3 out of 5 shots hit target)?

These are the typical distances/target sizes for urban combat or self-defense. The vast majority of gun killings (over 90%) in the US are gang related. We do not lack armed gangs in India, so the additional death burden would be rather small compared to the benefits.

Are licensed citizens allowed to carry Handguns (let alone Automatic weapons) openly in USA? Or are they allowed to carry concealed weapon? What the restrictions on carrying licensed weapons?

How many Terrorist attacks have taken place in Britain or EU or Japan which have similar gun control laws as India?

Arming ordinary citizens is no answer to failure of gov. to protect it's citizens. To be competent with a firearm you need intense training (which even our policemen lack) and you need tactical training to handle the situation. Without proper training these armed citizens will end up as a danger to themself and to others around them.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 09 Dec 2008 06:50

Most states in the US do not require you to obtain any license to buy a semi-automatic gun (long gun or handgun). Over 45 states allow 'concealed carry' as long you have no criminal record (they cannot refuse you if you are "clean"). Most states allow you to carry your weapons openly on your property or in your vehicle to any place you visit (with exceptions like church, universities, schools, army bases etc). Many states allow you to have guns in your car at work.

You are kidding! "Many" is a misleading word. It is a felony in many states to carry a weapon in your vehicle without a permit. Without a permit, The only way you can carry these weapons is to carry them unloaded, make sure that that ammunition and weapon are in seperate locked compartments. If you are caught with a loaded gun in the passenger compartment of your car without a permit, you are in big trouble. regardless of the fact you bought the gun legally or not.

You can keep guns at home. but again states like NY, IL and CA have restrictions on the magazine capacity, gun length, gun features (no foldable butts - no mags over Xx rounds etc).

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 09 Dec 2008 06:53

A background check along with mental stability ( If an Psychiatric records are checked)

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 09 Dec 2008 07:09

narayanan wrote:I am spamming this all over, no apologies. ACT! OK, folks, please propagate this one far and wide. It hits the right spots.

Please Don’t Use My Tax Dollars To Fund Terrorism
http://www.petitiononline.com/NoPak/petition.html

SIMPLE MESSAGE: STOP FUNDING PAKISTANI TERRORISM: THE LIFE YOU SAVE MAY BE YOUR OWN, OR THAT OF SOMEONE YOU LOVE!

N^3,

USA $ are given to pakistan under several conditions and in many different ways.

- For example $2B aid by upgrading some F-16
- For example $450M aid in rice
- For example $3B cash aid to pay off XYZ

(Of course pakistan finds ways to circumecize around the conditions and get illegal money)

- for example: Send F-16 radar to china for $100M baksheesh
- for example: send dud hellfire missile to china for $50M baksheesh

(The above money is directly used for funding terrorism)

The main problem is saudi arabia. They are doling out cash to paki-whore-satan to buy paint for madrassa walls, but in fact its used to fund granades, suicide bomber's family, etc.

Summary:
Saudi Arabia is a bigger source of terrorism money to pakistan
and one pill of brahmos after dinner to Saudi refinery is what the doctor prescibes

BTW i sent in the form....

amit · Post by **amit** » 09 Dec 2008 07:19

ramana wrote:Looking at the Delhi elections, there is very little chance that the INC will get booted out in Maharastra. Might even get full majority and not need the Pawar gang. People like their terrorist supporters to rule them. Maybe its Stockholm syndrome. But htey have spoken. Its only the chatterati who think they can make a difference over caste and votebank.

There could be another reason for the election results (apart from the usual caste, vote bank and women power that's been written here).

And that is maybe when it came to national security issues the voters were faced with a Hobson's choice between a pathetic (in terms of looking after national security needs) Congress and BJP which in its stint of power did not exactly cover itself with glory as far as protecting India is concerned.

It seems like Indian voters, folks here have short memory for security issues, going back only until 2004.

Kandahar, Akshardham Temple attack, Parliament attack and the brutal lynching of BSF jawans by Bangladeshi soldiers and the dead body being carried tied to a stick like a cow carcass has been totally forgotten. The list is much longer but let's ignore that for the moment.

[Just to jog a few memories just see here and here.]

Sorry to say but unless someone like Narendra Modi becomes the head of BJP they don't look any better than MMS-Sonia led Congress as far as security issues are concerned.

The faster we realise this the better for us.

JMT

PS: I would also like to state that two wrongs do not make one right and just because NDA was soft on terror does not mean the UPA government has right to be the same. And just on the basis of what happened in Mumbai, I would have been the most happiest person if Congress suffered major electoral reverses in this set of elections as it would have sent an unequivocal signal to the political class that security and terror cannot be put on the back burner for vote bank politics.

I hope this makes my personal stand clear.

ss_roy · Post by **ss_roy** » 09 Dec 2008 07:21

Have you ever been in rural parts of the US? Midwest and South-East?

You are kidding! "Many" is a misleading word. It is a felony in many states to carry a weapon in your vehicle without a permit. Without a permit, The only way you can carry these weapons is to carry them unloaded, make sure that that ammunition and weapon are in seperate locked compartments. If you are caught with a loaded gun in the passenger compartment of your car without a permit, you are in big trouble. regardless of the fact you bought the gun legally or not.

You can keep guns at home. but again states like NY, IL and CA have restrictions on the magazine capacity, gun length, gun features (no foldable butts - no mags over Xx rounds etc).

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 09 Dec 2008 07:21

No argument there, Kobe, but what has changed is that the US Govt is no longer even pretending that the Pak Army is on the side of the West. Condy Rice managed to trip over herself very nicely by trying to defend the present Pak gang as "civilian, democratic" etc. So what happened to the "secular, modern, pro-west" army? Wasn't that what made Pakistan more aid-worthy?

Bush's and Rice's polices lie exposed, and over a thousand Indians are dead. Even Rice admits that the Indian frustration and anger against the US policy post-911 is "completely understandable". So I agree with the thrust of this petition - it accurately points the finger at those who have been sending $$$$B over to the terrorists, from US taxpayer money.

With that Congressional Report coming out predicting WMD attacks originating from TSP in side the next 5 years, time is almost out.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 09 Dec 2008 07:48

narayanan wrote:No argument there, Kobe, but what has changed is that the US Govt is no longer even pretending ... predicting WMD attacks originating from TSP in side the next 5 years, time is almost out.

As the resident pessimist may I add my 2.purane.paise:

Some abduls will attend resort training regarding not giving out their private phone numbers and not calling operatives while being under "house" arrest. No one will be handed over to anyone.
A few more vehicles will be burnt. Then, abdul's anger againt sam-uddin will cool down. periodic al-hellfires will continue.

that's about it. Nothing more can and will happen. Even if they take a WMD to the western shore of the promised land, EU will only increase development aid, and US will promise more supplies. Meanwhile, rajamata will be busy taking care of any remaining sense of nationhood in the subcontinent.

Anant · Post by **Anant** » 09 Dec 2008 07:49

SS_Roy,

I live in Iowa, arguably a rural and upper midwestern state. Jagan is spot on correct. Laws don't change just because of the rural/urban mix. Freemen nutjob types don't obviate the need to respect the law. FYI, Iowa has some of the toughest laws in the US to carry a weapon or to get one. Please don't generalize.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Dec 2008 08:38

Chicom shows hand on Mumbai attack?

SK Mody · Post by **SK Mody** » 09 Dec 2008 08:39

IIT_graduate_was_to_marry_next_week

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Dec 2008 08:44

Hope this has not been posted earlier:

Op-Ed Contributor :: The Terrorists Want to Destroy Pakistan, Too

By ASIF ALI ZARDARI
Published: December 8, 2008

Islamabad, Pakistan

THE recent death and destruction in Mumbai, India, brought to my mind the death and destruction in Karachi on Oct. 18, 2007, when terrorists attacked a festive homecoming rally for my wife, Benazir Bhutto. Nearly 150 Pakistanis were killed and more than 450 were injured. The terrorist attacks in Mumbai may be a news story for most of the world. For me it is a painful reality of shared experience. Having seen my wife escape death by a hairbreadth on that day in Karachi, I lost her in a second, unfortunately successful, attempt two months later.

The Mumbai attacks were directed not only at India but also at Pakistan’s new democratic government and the peace process with India that we have initiated. Supporters of authoritarianism in Pakistan and non-state actors with a vested interest in perpetuating conflict do not want change in Pakistan to take root.

To foil the designs of the terrorists, the two great nations of Pakistan and India, born together from the same revolution and mandate in 1947, must continue to move forward with the peace process. Pakistan is shocked at the terrorist attacks in Mumbai. We can identify with India’s pain. I am especially empathetic. I feel this pain every time I look into the eyes of my children.

Pakistan is committed to the pursuit, arrest, trial and punishment of anyone involved in these heinous attacks. But we caution against hasty judgments and inflammatory statements. As was demonstrated in Sunday’s raids, which resulted in the arrest of militants, Pakistan will take action against the non-state actors found within our territory, treating them as criminals, terrorists and murderers. Not only are the terrorists not linked to the government of Pakistan in any way, we are their targets and we continue to be their victims.

India is a mature nation and a stable democracy. Pakistanis appreciate India’s democratic contributions. But as rage fueled by the Mumbai attacks catches on, Indians must pause and take a breath. India and Pakistan — and the rest of the world — must work together to track down the terrorists who caused mayhem in Mumbai, attacked New York, London and Madrid in the past, and destroyed the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad in September. The terrorists who killed my wife are connected by ideology to these enemies of civilization.

These militants did not arise from whole cloth. Pakistan was an ally of the West throughout the cold war. The world worked to exploit religion against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan by empowering the most fanatic extremists as an instrument of destruction of a superpower. The strategy worked, but its legacy was the creation of an extremist militia with its own dynamic.

Pakistan continues to pay the price: the legacy of dictatorship, the fatigue of fanaticism, the dismemberment of civil society and the destruction of our democratic infrastructure. The resulting poverty continues to fuel the extremists and has created a culture of grievance and victimhood.

The challenge of confronting terrorists who have a vast support network is huge; Pakistan’s fledgling democracy needs help from the rest of the world. We are on the frontlines of the war on terrorism. We have 150,000 soldiers fighting Al Qaeda, the Taliban and their extremist allies along the border with Afghanistan — far more troops than NATO has in Afghanistan.

Nearly 2,000 Pakistanis have lost their lives to terrorism in this year alone, including 1,400 civilians and 600 security personnel ranging in rank from ordinary soldier to three-star general. There have been more than 600 terrorism-related incidents in Pakistan this year. The terrorists have been set back by our aggressive war against them in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and the Pashtun-majority areas bordering Afghanistan. Six hundred militants have been killed in recent attacks, hundreds by Pakistani F-16 jet strikes in the last two months.

Terrorism is a regional as well as a global threat, and it needs to be battled collectively. We understand the domestic political considerations in India in the aftermath of Mumbai. Nevertheless, accusations of complicity on Pakistan’s part only complicate the already complex situation.

For India, Pakistan and the United States, the best response to the Mumbai carnage is to coordinate in counteracting the scourge of terrorism. The world must act to strengthen Pakistan’s economy and democracy, help us build civil society and provide us with the law enforcement and counterterrorism capacities that will enable us to fight the terrorists effectively.

Benazir Bhutto once said that democracy is the best revenge against the abuses of dictatorship. In the current environment, reconciliation and rapprochement is the best revenge against the dark forces that are trying to provoke a confrontation between Pakistan and India, and ultimately a clash of civilizations.

Asif Ali Zardari is the president of Pakistan.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 09 Dec 2008 08:48

Today's NY times story about the use of VoIP phones, GPS and other technologies by Mumbai killers.
Mumbai Terrorists Relied on New Technology for Attacks

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Dec 2008 08:49

Pure, distilled BS.

NO mention of Pakistani Army nor ISI.

Just cannot happen. This editorial MUST have been dictated by the ISI.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 09 Dec 2008 08:52

All this to prove how dumb we are? As people? As a nation? As for ever bumbling incompetent, fit to be ruled but not rule.
May be MMS is right British rule was the best and call them back to rule us may be?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Dec 2008 08:55

Amber G. wrote:Today's NY times story about the use of VoIP phones, GPS and other technologies by Mumbai killers.
Mumbai Terrorists Relied on New Technology for Attacks

I find it very hard to believe that at the end of 2008 security agencies are complaining about keep up with terrorists using latest technologies. Criminals have always done that - Bonnie and Clyde did it. Al Capone did it.

Upgrading from lathis would be a major step in the right direction.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Dec 2008 08:58

India is the worlds first failed democracy.

This attack is starting to expose a lot of its deficiencies that have been known to Indian leaders, have not been fixed but in actuality have been left to get worse for a personal profit.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Dec 2008 09:01

meantime TOI is gleefullly proclaming today that terror is not a
electoral issue and the Kangress has trotted out Yuvaraj as its
mascot who won the 3-2 "semifinal verdict" (per TOI)

this was the guy who partied till 5am the day after the siege ended.

and this is our future PM.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Dec 2008 09:12

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/09/world ... an.html?hp

Zakiur ur-Rehman Lakhvi, the supreme operational commander of Lashkar-e-Taiba, at a rally in Pakistan in April.

December 9, 2008
Pakistan Raids Group Tied to Attacks
By JANE PERLEZ and SALMAN MASOOD

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — After mounting pressure from the United States and India, Pakistani authorities raided a camp run by the militant group suspected of carrying out the Mumbai attacks, Pakistani and American officials said Monday.

The operation on Sunday appeared to be Pakistan’s first concrete response to the demands from India and the United States to take action against the militants suspected in the attacks, which have raised tensions between the nuclear-armed neighbors to their highest point in years.

The Pakistani authorities said that among those arrested was Zaki ur-Rehman Lakhvi, who Indian and American officials say masterminded the attacks for the militant group, Lashkar-e-Taiba, according to a State Department official in Washington.

American Embassy officials could not verify the claim independently, he said. Neither would Pakistani officials in Islamabad.

A senior Pakistani security official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said about a dozen people had been arrested in the raid, which took place in Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistani-administered Kashmir.

The official at first said that Mr. Lakhvi, an operational commander for Lashkar, was among them, but later backed away from the assertion.

Lashkar-e-Taiba was founded 20 years ago with the help of Pakistan’s intelligence agencies as a proxy force to challenge Indian control of part of Muslim-dominated Kashmir.

American intelligence and counterterrorism officials told The New York Times that Pakistan’s spy agency, Inter-Services Intelligence, continued nurturing the group, even after 9/11, when the Pakistani government pledged to sever its ties with militant groups.

While investigators and intelligence officials say there is no hard evidence linking Pakistan’s spy agency to the Mumbai attacks, they have pointed to Lashkar as the likely culprit.

The Pakistani government has resisted the notion that Pakistani citizens may have been involved in the Mumbai attacks, and it has so far refused to hand over 20 criminal and terrorist suspects long demanded by the Indians.

The raid on Sunday appeared to be the first step by the Pakistanis that at least tacitly recognized the American and Indian claims.

Counterterrorism experts familiar with the behavior of the Pakistani security services said there was a need by Pakistan to be seen to be doing something to alleviate the American and Indian pressure, as well as to avert the possibility of an Indian military strike.

Still, the effectiveness of that action might be less than India or the United States would like, they said. In the past, Pakistan detained militants under pressure from the United States and Britain, and then quietly let them go, said Sajjan M. Gohel, a director of the Asia-Pacific Foundation in London.

A senior Pakistani official said the operation was part of a gradual effort to bring the militants under control. This accords with the general view among civilian politicians that Pakistan cannot afford to appear as if it is being coerced into shutting down militant groups that have been created to fight India.

“Pakistan will do it at its own pace, not at gunpoint,” said a senior politician in the Pakistan Peoples Party, who declined to be named because he was not authorized to speak.

Moreover, the politician said that the efforts by Pakistan’s president, Asif Ali Zardari, to deal with the Mumbai attack were interpreted by the Pakistani public as an attempt to mollify the Indians rather than stand up to them.

“The street is upset,” the politician said. For that reason, the government could not move too harshly against Lashkar-e-Taiba, he said.

The murky relationship between Pakistani military and intelligence services and Lashkar seemed to contribute to the confusion over what actually happened during the raid and who had been detained, as well as to the official reluctance to discuss the matter.

Whether law enforcement officers or soldiers were on the scene in Muzaffarabad was unclear on Monday. Most Pakistani news reports said a helicopter hovered near the compound.

Some reports said the compound was run by Lashkar-e-Taiba, while others said it belonged to Jamaat-ud-Dawa, the related charity organization.

On Sunday night, the senior official in the Interior Ministry, Rehman Malik, told the newspaper The Nation that he believed that the raid was being conducted by the local police, but that he was not sure.

The information department of the Pakistani Army released a statement on Monday evening saying an “intelligence-led operation against banned militant outfits and organizations” was under way. There had been arrests, it said, and the results of investigations would be available “on completion of preliminary inquiries.”

A resident near the compound told Dawn, an English-language newspaper, that she had heard an army helicopter over the area and then two or three loud explosions in the early evening.

All the national newspapers reported Monday morning that Mr. Lakhvi, the Lashkar-e-Taiba leader, was among those who were arrested during the raid. Later in the morning, a senior security official confirmed that Mr. Lakhvi had been arrested, along with about a dozen others.

But by the afternoon, after a meeting of the Defense Council of the Cabinet, a civilian body that includes the army chief of staff, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the security official said he understood that Mr. Lakhvi had not been arrested.

At one point during the day, word spread that Mr. Lakhvi had eluded arrest. On Monday night, two members of the cabinet declined to confirm whether Mr. Lakhvi was in custody.

If Mr. Lakhvi was indeed in custody, India and the United States would regard his arrest as a good first step, diplomats said.

But his arrest along with the arrests of a handful of others would fall well short of fulfilling the expectations of Washington or New Delhi, they said.

Mr. Lakhvi, who is in his 50s, fought in Afghanistan as a mujahedeen against the Soviet Union, said Arif Jamal, a visiting fellow at the Center on International Cooperation at New York University and the author of a coming book, “Shadow War: The Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir.”

Mr. Lakhvi had not actually fought since 1989, Mr. Jamal said. He said Mr. Lakhvi possessed excellent organizational skills and a strong ideological commitment to the jihadist cause. “If Lashkar-e-Taiba was involved in the Mumbai attacks, Mr. Lakhvi would have an important role because of his organizational abilities,” Mr. Jamal said.

Lashkar-e-Taiba, which regards itself as a wing of the charity Jamaat-ud-Dawa, dismantled most of his training camps after 9/11, Mr. Jamal said. “They keep erecting mobile camps for training,” he said.

Mr. Lakhvi was active in the relief effort organized by Jamaat-ud-Dawa after the earthquake in Kashmir in 2005. That was the last time Mr. Jamal said he had seen Mr. Lakhvi.

A spokesman for Lashkar-e-Taiba, Abdullah Gaznabi, confirmed Monday that the Pakistani security forces had carried out a raid “under pressure from India and the United States,” but would say nothing specific about who or how many people had been detained.

“We have already made it clear that the Lashkar has nothing to do with the recent attacks in Mumbai,” he said by phone from an undisclosed location, “and by constantly trying to drag our organization’s name into these is nothing but to malign it.”

He also warned the government against sacrificing the cause of Kashmir, which has been disputed by India and Pakistan for more than 60 years. “Being Kashmiris, it is our right to use any part of the territory of Jammu and Kashmir for our just freedom struggle,” he said.

The Pakistani authorities offered on Monday to send a “high-level” delegation to India for a joint investigation, the foreign secretary, Salman Bashir, said.

Police officials in India, meanwhile, said they had identified the hometowns of all 10 known gunmen — all of them from Punjab Province in Pakistan — and said they had evidence further establishing the Pakistani origins of the men. “There are mailboxes from Pakistan, there are medical kits from Pakistan,” said Rakesh Maria, the joint police commissioner in Mumbai who is in charge of the case. “The rations — the flour, the rice — that has markings from places in Pakistan.”

Eric Schmitt contributed reporting from Washington; Yusuf Jameel from Srinagar, Kashmir; and Robert F. Worth from Mumbai, India.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Dec 2008 09:17

BTW, Pres Z has taken a page from Russia. I recall, just after the Georgia incident, Russia had a 8 page supplement to teh Wash Post. One would think that Russia had the only door to heaven because of their piety.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 09 Dec 2008 09:17

Jagan wrote:
Most states in the US do not require you to obtain any license to buy a semi-automatic gun (long gun or handgun). Over 45 states allow 'concealed carry' as long you have no criminal record (they cannot refuse you if you are "clean"). Most states allow you to carry your weapons openly on your property or in your vehicle to any place you visit (with exceptions like church, universities, schools, army bases etc). Many states allow you to have guns in your car at work.
You are kidding! "Many" is a misleading word. It is a felony in many states to carry a weapon in your vehicle without a permit. Without a permit, The only way you can carry these weapons is to carry them unloaded, make sure that that ammunition and weapon are in seperate locked compartments. If you are caught with a loaded gun in the passenger compartment of your car without a permit, you are in big trouble. regardless of the fact you bought the gun legally or not.

You can keep guns at home. but again states like NY, IL and CA have restrictions on the magazine capacity, gun length, gun features (no foldable butts - no mags over Xx rounds etc).

In south people carry guns like they carry their wallets. my boss has 120 guns and he keeps two on him all the time and another shotgun in his truck. All loaded.
Most of my friends carry guns. Some even have AKs, and there was a report of a guy with a rocket launcher(illegal though).
you can carry a concealed weapon almost everywhere, the gun free zones will specifically mention that guns are not allowed.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 09 Dec 2008 09:27

Carrying guns is not a solution at all. i am proud that indians dont carry guns all the time. Its more of a liability then safety. We dont want to make India another pakistan.
Safety is the job of police and better left to them. there is no role of weapons in a civilized society. We need to equip and train our law enforcement and security agencies better for their job.
We need something like homeland security and strong laws. We need to have an agency which is off limits from most of the laws and works in parallel with other agencies.

We should have never allowed pakistan to have nukes. just like USA is so strict about who can have nukes and who cannot. We should have shown some balls and blown their facilities and the only copycat scientist living in it. Now we are in a situation which is unique. no other country has such a failed, unstable, scared and nuke possessing neighbor like ours.

We can still do it. pee-stan is in deep shyte right now. we can strip them of their nukes by all the channels available including strikes. if we dont do it now then we can never do it.
All we need is a will and guts. our corrupt leaders are small players and only worry about their cut. we have never been international player. our foreign policy is meek and presence on world stage is minuscule.
If we dont take care of it now then it will be even worse tomorrow. if we took care of them 10-20 years ago we would be so much better off now. sooner or later we will have to do it. so why not now.
with the fast development in economy we are building "Targets" at a rapid pace and all they have to do is build bombs.
no guts.. no glory..