Indian Missile Technology Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Dec 2008 22:27

They are still in the old mode to deny Indian capabilities. Any way they get paid for that.

So what is the op status for the AII and can a demo AIII be readied for ops?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 05 Dec 2008 23:33

The less the world suspects the better for India. Why go around explaining our capabilities. Somethings should be kept a secret.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 05 Dec 2008 23:51

ramana wrote:So what is the op status for the AII and can a demo AIII be readied for ops?

Ramana-ji,
It is now common knowledge that during the development of the Agni II series and then during the Agni-I there were always Preproduction models made for operational deployment during crisis periods. In view of the above surely a deployed Agni-III is not unfathomable specially if you consider the heightening of tensions with China a few months back.

What I find more interesting in the current situation that we are facing today wrt the terror attacks, Would the Nuclear weapons have been mated with the missiles? Will the air force and DRDO technicians be assembling warheads from their disassembled states? I think so.

There is a possibility of a military escalation and India surely has taken things to the highest preparedness level.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 06 Dec 2008 01:20

Ramana, I don't see why not. For each test 2 missiles are readied. In the event one has a minor glitch the other can be used.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Dec 2008 02:31

http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2008/12/india.php

check the second comment

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 06 Dec 2008 02:42

Gerard, so they doubt India's capabilities because Indians are liars ? Is that what they are saying ? There is no analysis or proof here at all. What a farce ! FAS = Farcical Analysis Site.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Dec 2008 03:16

Gerard wrote:http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2008/12/india.php

Some industry officials have said that both weapons will have multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles (MIRVs), but given the difficulties India has faced with the Agni I and Agni II—and the technological and financial challenges experienced by other nuclear weapon states developing MIRV technology —we remain skeptical of India’s ability to MIRV its missiles anytimesoon. Perhaps more importantly, MIRVed missiles would seriously challenge the credibility of India’s minimum deterrent doctrine.

going

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 06 Dec 2008 11:03

Gerard wrote:http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2008/12/india.php

check the second comment

Read the third comment, no marks for guessing who

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Dec 2008 13:51

From

India’s Nuclear Forces 2008 - By Hans M. Kristensen
http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2008/12/india.php
A decade after India officially crossed the nuclear threshold and announced its intention to develop a Triad of nuclear forces based on land-, air-, and sea-based weapon systems, its operational force primarily consists of gravity bombs delivered by fighter jets.

Mr. Hans M. Kristensen claims are based on "Indian nuclear forces, 2008" authored by himself and Mr.Robert S. Norris available on the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists site.
This is the link for the indian nuclear forces, 2008 pdf.
http://thebulletin.metapress.com/conten ... lltext.pdf

In this pdf on Page number 1, 3 column, 3 line, this is what is written,
Aircraft Fighter bombers are the mainstay of India’s nuclear strike force.4

The 4 refers to "proof" that hans and robert have for claiming aircrafts are the primary nuclear delivery systems that india depends on in the event of an all-out nuclear war.

In the last page of the pdf under the Notes section, we find that the 4 refers to,

4. Vishal Thapar, "N-Capable Agni-III Ready, but Aircraft Remain First Choice," CNN-IBN, May 8, 2008.

Members here will remember vishal "chemical weapons" thapar of the great videshi channel cnn-ibn and his by now legendary reporting on defence matters for which he has no knowledge and has even less patience to understand when others try to teach him the basics.

So all these claims being made by hans and robert are based on hearsay and false information rather than any research or intelligence input.

Great job then, ahmed chalabi would be happy with his students.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Dec 2008 18:44

Its good for us if the world underestimates our prowess....

They will get the rude awakening when "Gandhian" India bares it all in the near future in case of a conflict.

amanpuneet · Post by **amanpuneet** » 06 Dec 2008 19:00

less they know better for us.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Dec 2008 19:17

^^If hans had told some truth in his research about indian nuclear delivery systems then i would've no problem in accepting that even if he had made negative comments based on his research but this plain lying by linking to documents produced by him and robert and then presenting this "research" as truth is something that needs to be countered.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 07 Dec 2008 02:30

ok guys I fess up third was me

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Dec 2008 03:03

thats a classic picture of astra! awesome!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S ... C_0057.JPG

must have got near 100% burn rate

Mihir.D · Post by **Mihir.D** » 08 Dec 2008 08:46

will it be possible to carry more then 1 Astra's on the same launcher ? Its not possible with the R-77 is it ?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 08 Dec 2008 13:24

krishnan wrote:
Gerard wrote:http://www.fas.org/blog/ssp/2008/12/india.php

check the second comment

Read the third comment, no marks for guessing who

Well, well, well ... a very detailed comment went missing from the site.
Guys, let keep this guy busy. Post in comments and let him come up with defences. That will make him think twice before coming up with juvenile reports.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 08 Dec 2008 13:34

that ^&*^&*^& took off my comment

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 08 Dec 2008 19:52

ramana wrote:So he is making it a wooden round.

It felt a little uncomfortable looking at the Rail mount TEL that looked real flimsy compared to the missile slowly lifting it up and firing. Wooden round is the way to go.

Sathish_A · Post by **Sathish_A** » 08 Dec 2008 21:04

ok here we go... my share of bile for him

"Hi Hans,

A very well written article. However, there is one clarification to me made. All your inputs are based on published articles or newsprint, which in turn is relying on inputs from a person, an entity or organization based in India. These days, when even President of USA, is know to have mislead people with false pretext to wage war, How do you expect a country like India to tell everyone we have the capability? Basically, even US does not disclose all its capabilities in open until and unless its pretty sure that it has an superior alternative. In 1998, even CIA was not sure about the extent of nuclear weapons development in India and had to digest the fact that they(Injun's) in fact managed to detonate five different type of devices. So we can only be sure what you have concluded is 100% fact, when India puts its nuclear machinery to use and I am afraid we both don't want that to happen, just to prove what you have stated is fact and nothing less."

Kunal Dhami · Post by **Kunal Dhami** » 10 Dec 2008 23:12

I was googling and found this
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... ed/249959/

I find it little strange..why a SAM will be with nuclear warhead.

Any veteran member can throw some light??

Sorry if I posted in wrong section or violated any forum rules..am a n00b here..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Dec 2008 23:20

the newbie thread would have been a better place for this.

anyway, some SAMs did carry nuke warheads during cold war.
for example, one version of the soviet SA-2 SAM carried a nuke warhead.

there have been no reports that the akash does likewise meaning that the reporter is likely confused.

Kunal Dhami · Post by **Kunal Dhami** » 10 Dec 2008 23:26

Rahul M wrote:the newbie thread would have been a better place for this.

anyway, some SAMs did carry nuke warheads during cold war.
for example, one version of the soviet SA-2 SAM carried a nuke warhead.

there have been no reports that the akash does likewise meaning that the reporter is likely confused.

Thanks for the reply and will make sure in future that I post in right forum only..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Dec 2008 23:41

krishnan wrote:that ^&*^&*^& took off my comment

you should have posted it here for that very reason!

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 11 Dec 2008 23:19

From PIB

Ministry of Defence has signed a contract with M/s Rafael, Israel to procure Spyder Low Level Quick Reaction Missile System (LLQRM) for the Indian Air Force.

The proposal for Trishul system was foreclosed due to its inability to meet certain critical operational requirements. However, it served as a technology demonstrator and the expertise acquired with the technologies developed during design and development phase of Trishul Missile System are being utilized for developing state-of-the-art Short Range Surface to Air Missile System.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Tarini Kanta Roy in Rajya Sabha today.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 14 Dec 2008 09:14

Astra missile carriage trials next month

Astra missile carriage trials next month

Ravi Sharma

BANGALORE: The carriage trials of the indigenous air-to-air missile , Astra, are slated for January. Test pilots from the Aircraft Systems and Testing Establishment will take off in a Su-30MKI combat aircraft from Air Force Station Lohegaon (Pune) for the trials.

Disclosing this to The Hindu on Saturday, project director of the Astra programme S. Gollakota said the Indian Air Force had made available a Su-30MKI for the trials.

Flights evaluations and specific telemetry were on and the detailed Su-30 was undergoing instrumentation and modifications in order to allow it to carry the missile on its wing tips at the HAL’s Nasik facility.

During the trials, the Su-30MKI will carry a dummy Astra missile (with no explosives) which has not been electrically or electronically ‘connected’ to the aircraft’s on-board systems.

The trials, which involve around 20 odd sorties, will allow a verification of aspects such as the mechanical, structural and electrical compatibility between the missile and the aircraft, vibrations and strain.

The second phase of the trials — expected next July — will involve the integration of the missile’s avionics with that of the aircraft.

Dr. Gollakota expects the actual firing during the end of 2009.

In September, the Astra was successfully test fired from a ground launch at Chandipur-on-sea, off the Orissa coast. But India has a long way to go to master and indigenise some of the missile’s crucial technologies.

The Astra now depends on a Russian launcher and more crucially the seeker head is also imported.

India had tried to get a seeker from the French, but settled for the Russian one, which is yet to be integrated with the missile’s radar, algorithms, etc. Part of India’s Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme that was developed by a team of defence laboratories led by the Hyderabad-based Defence Research and Development Laboratory, the Astra, at its design altitude of 15 km, has the ability to evade radar.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 14 Dec 2008 09:26

russian launcher is of course makes sense as trials aircraft is mki and best to use RVVAE launcher

and seeker from russia means latest AGAT seeker which is quite competitive versus western seeker

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 15 Dec 2008 09:55

Final trials of Nag missiles from next week
Y. Mallikarjun

Missiles have fire-and-forget, top-attack capabilities

Nag is superior in terms of range and lethality

HYDERABAD: The final user trials of the land version of the third generation, anti-tank guided missile, Nag, will be held in Chandan Air Force range, near Jaisalmer, from December 22 to 30.

As many as seven Nag missiles, which have fire-and-forget and top-attack capabilities, will be fired during the trials to be conducted by the Army, according to Nag’s project director S.S. Mishra.

Mr. Mishra told The Hindu here the final trials will be conducted in two phases – next week’s winter trials will be followed by summer trials in June 2009, also by the Army. However, the induction process of the missile was expected to begin after the winter trials. The land version of the indigenously developed tactical system has been built for use by the Army’s mechanised infantry.

The trials come in the wake of successful completion of development trials in Pokhran in August last when the missile achieved the maximum range of four km and hit both stationary and moving targets. It also demonstrated top-attack competence, effective performance of tandem warhead and amphibious capability. Some improvements were carried out in the system on the basis of user feedback.

Mr. Mishra said Nag was superior in terms of range and lethality (potency of the warhead) when compared to other anti-tank missiles – Javelin (U.S.), Spike (Israel) and Trigat (Europe). The two-stage solid propellant missile is equipped with Imaging Infrared seeker, having a ‘lock-on-before-launch’ capability enabling the system to track the target even before it was fired.

The land version will be carried by a ‘Namica,’ a dedicated missile carrier – each having 12 missiles with eight of them in ready-to-fire mode.
Aerial version

He said work on the airborne version, ‘Helina,’ was continuing separately as a “fast track project” and the initial trials were expected to take place by the end of 2009. The aerial version will be mounted on an ALH helicopter.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 15 Dec 2008 10:18

Vikram_S wrote:russian launcher is of course makes sense as trials aircraft is mki and best to use RVVAE launcher

and seeker from russia means latest AGAT seeker which is quite competitive versus western seeker

Vikram any update on what are the new AGAT seekers???

I will try and do somer research to find some latest info...

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 15 Dec 2008 10:46

Goggling for AGAT seeker returns it as "active radar seeker"

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 15 Dec 2008 17:02

so next week nag tests, then BMD tests then next month Astra trials.
Hmm things started happening suddenly.

However, the induction process of the missile was expected to begin after the winter trials.

Interesting indeed, this means within this month or by next couple of months we will know the decision of induction of Nag in IA.
IIRC the order is for 13 carriers and 443 missiles and is worth a few hundred crores, while there is another competition for 4100 missiles for IA. If nag wins the competition that will be huuuuuge.

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 15 Dec 2008 17:20

Launcher Rail/Adapter is Russian
Seeker is from France (Mica ??)

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 15 Dec 2008 17:24

Himanshu wrote:Launcher Rail/Adapter is Russian
Seeker is from France (Mica ??)

see above

India had tried to get a seeker from the French, but settled for the Russian one

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 15 Dec 2008 17:27

K Mehta wrote: IIRC the order is for 13 carriers and 443 missiles and is worth a few hundred crores, while there is another competition for 4100 missiles for IA. If nag wins the competition that will be huuuuuge.

Mehta sahab, I think that is for shoulder fired missiles (correct me if I am wrong here).

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 16 Dec 2008 11:21

Nitesh wrote: Mehta sahab, I think that is for shoulder fired missiles (correct me if I am wrong here).

Well you are wrong here. google for nag 13 launchers 443 missiles. The only way i can be wrong here is that the media would have picked up Prasun's BS.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 16 Dec 2008 11:28

K Mehta wrote:
Nitesh wrote: Mehta sahab, I think that is for shoulder fired missiles (correct me if I am wrong here).
Well you are wrong here. google for nag 13 launchers 443 missiles. The only way i can be wrong here is that the media would have picked up Prasun's BS.

I am a bit confused now...I must agree with Nitesh as I do remember there were reports floating that the IA was looking for shoulder fired ATGMs and something about the Milan II (ER?) being produced domestically.

Also if the 4100 order includes the NAG, then have the DRDO already mod. the NAG for shoulder fire?

Anyhow the NAMICA sounds like a great idea accompanying T-90s and (hopefully:D) Arjuns in an armoured thrust.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 16 Dec 2008 11:43

IIRC that shoulder fired ATGM order for 4000 missiles has already been placed, with next competition for 4100 being for armoured carrier launched ones.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 16 Dec 2008 12:28

andyB,

http://www.airshow.ru/expo/334/index.htm
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... %26hl%3Den

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 16 Dec 2008 12:29

nag is too heavy to be shoulder fired.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Dec 2008 13:47

The ATGM order was for equipping the Infantry battalions. As for the armored carrier ones, are we talking about replacing the ATGMs fired by the BMP-1 or BMP-2 IFVs? Apart from these, we do not have any other armored platform for carrying and firing the ATGMs.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 16 Dec 2008 15:47

Vikram_S wrote:andyB,

http://www.airshow.ru/expo/334/index.htm
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... %26hl%3Den

Vikram mate you are an absolute champ.

Many thanks.
P.S. I probably should have gotten my lazy a$$ into gear and googled.