Indian Response to Terrorism

[AdityaM]

I think its clear without some substantial concessions from TSP, UPA cannot back down now... don't think TSP can deliver though. With the US also giving the ultimatum, TSP is feeling the heat.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Worl ... 870461.cms

India capable of giving befitting reply to terror sponsors: Sonia

The only befitting reply is to give Sonia Gandhi to Pakistan!

[RajaJi]

We should not make too much of karkare's death.I for one, have no sympathy for those who are maligning the Hindutva brigade.The pigs did not run to karkare's house/office to execute him, karkare and his team got in the pigs way and so run over.Let's not forget that karkare is not the only one who was shot.There were policemen , NSG commandos too who lost their lives.Karkare got what he deserved .The secular brigade has already harassed the Sadhvi enough while saving the piggy afzal guru.We need to go on the offensive against the pseudo seculars and Karkare was just one of them.

+1

[Arun_S]

Pranab asks Pak to stop being in 'denial' and take action

21 Dec 2008, 2126 hrs IST, TNN
KOLKATA: Keeping a tough line on Pakistan, foreign minister Pranab Mukherjee on Sunday asked the Asif Zardari government to stop being in denial and dismantle the terror infrastructure inside that country. ( Watch )

Simultaneously, the US told Pakistan it could not treat the Mumbai attacks as "an ordinary event" that could be "swept under the carpet".

Responding to repeated Pakistani calls for "evidence", Mukherjee categorically said that India had provided enough evidence already. "It's time for action," the minister added.

"We have enough evidence to prove involvement of Pakistan-based terrorists in the Mumbai attacks. At least 10 times, we have given evidence of that to Pakistan. Now, instead of issuing flat denials, Pakistan should act tough and take strong actions," Mukherjee said.

Speaking at an interactive session organised by the Bengal Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Mukherjee said Pakistan's arguments were not convincing.

The "chilling evidence" was derived from several sources, including satellite phones, from which calls were intercepted. "The attackers were in constant touch with their controllers," the minister said.

He also criticised Zardari's claim that "non-state actors" were involved in the Mumbai attacks. "Who are these non-state actors? They don't come from heaven or another planet, do they? From wherever they are operating, the government has to stop them," Mukherjee said.

His stand was echoed by the US as Pakistan's national security adviser Mahmud Durrani received a "tough" message from Washington that what Pakistan had done so far "was not enough". According to reports, top US officials told Durrani the US government was "getting increasingly frustrated" with what it views as Islamabad's "shifting position on the Mumbai attacks and its aftermath".

Mukherjee said on Sunday that India had clear evidence that "elements" from Pakistan came to India to carry out the terror attacks in Mumbai. But however tough he may have sounded, he also made it clear that India would not take any military action. In his interaction, Mukherjee stated flatly that India cannot chase terrorists in other countries and it was the responsibility of the Pakistani government to deal with them.

Earlier this week, Condoleezza Rice said her message to the Pakistani leadership was, "You need to deal with the terrorism problem. And it's not enough to say these are non-state actors. If they're operating from Pakistani territory, then they have to be dealt with." A stronger message was delivered to Durrani by his counterpart Stephen Hadley. Essentially, the US message was that it would no longer look the other way while Pakistan carried on as it did during the Musharraf years.

Meanwhile, Mukherjee laid out a similar line. Pakistan has to fulfil its commitment for not allowing Pakistani soil for terror attacks against India and it should hand over fugitives from India hiding there, the minister said. "And if there are any Pakistani nationals involved, we should be allowed to interrogate them," he added.

Mukherjee made it clear that Indian Muslims shouldn't be victimised for the attacks. "There is no reason to link Islam with terrorism. At least 40 of those who died in Mumbai were Muslims. There is a desperate bid to create a divide between Hindus and Muslims using these terror attacks. People of the country will resist any such evil design," he said.

Hitting out at the Pakistani government for its "doublespeak", the minister said, "First they claimed that Masood Azhar has been kept under house arrest. Later, they said he couldn't be traced. This should stop immediately. I have never mentioned that the Pakistani government was involved in abetting terrorism. But the government there has to deal with the situation. Musharraf and Asif Zardari have both pledged that Pakistani soil will not be used for anti-India activities. They must live up to that commitment."

[ramana]

Karkare was targetted due to an old feud with the D-company

Need to put excerpts of the piece. So there is motive but how was it achieved? And while at it might want to probe Antulloo at saem time to see what is his motivation?

[Dhiman]

what to do with the TSP ? after bombing it to smithereens, what should the Indian gov and the army do with the place, the people, and the consequences? should they incorporate it into a province of India? should they allow it to be a newly designed republic? should they incorporate part and leave the other bits to the "dogs"? what to do with the surviving military machine and political class? should democracy be restored or replaced on a "wait and see basis" by military rule or authoritarian givernance until the population is deemed ready for "democracy"? what to do with the captured ? go for a Nuremberg style trial or not? what to do with the Ulema at the heart of this pain and blood? what to do with the Islamic theology that reigns through the madrassahs and permeates the society? lots and lots of questions on which the current crop of politicians have no clue at all - this handicaps the Indian army - and makes its strategic objectives necessarily confused and therefore self-defeating.

All that needs to be done is to take complete control of Pakistani airspace by knocking out their air force as quickly as possible and then in the long run use that complete control of Pakistani airspace to push Pakistani military out and push the civilian government towards sanity. Let Pakistan have a new start that Pakistani public so desperately desires.

What many BRfites are hoping for, comes froma clear political will and vision about what to do with the inseparable twin questions of the state of Pakistan and the Islamic Jihadi ideology - and the Indian army should not be burdened with this expectation at the current state - they have not been prepared and nurtured to do this. They have a much a greater role to play and much greater rewards to receive - but in the future, when the polutics is ready.

As long as you are not advocating multiple center of power in India like the TSP - are they our role models now

[brihaspati]

Quote:
What many BRfites are hoping for, comes froma clear political will and vision about what to do with the inseparable twin questions of the state of Pakistan and the Islamic Jihadi ideology - and the Indian army should not be burdened with this expectation at the current state - they have not been prepared and nurtured to do this. They have a much a greater role to play and much greater rewards to receive - but in the future, when the polutics is ready.


As long as you are not advocating multiple center of power in India like the TSP - are they our role models now

Well I "clearly" mentioned that the army should play its role in satisfying the strategic objectives of the Indian nation as clearly formulated by the nation's politics and political leadership who have the task of such clear and concrete formulation. At the moment they are handicapped in not being given long-term, clear, consistent and feasible strategic objectives. It is not the task of the political leadership to micromanage the implementations of this objective militarily - giving this freedom to the military command is not creation of "multiple centres of power", it is a tactical necessity.

[Dhiman]

Well I "clearly" mentioned that the army should play its role in satisfying the strategic objectives of the Indian nation as clearly formulated by the nation's politics and political leadership who have the task of such clear and concrete formulation. At the moment they are handicapped in not being given long-term, clear, consistent and feasible strategic objectives. It is not the task of the political leadership to micromanage the implementations of this objective militarily - giving this freedom to the military command is not creation of "multiple centres of power", it is a tactical necessity.

It depends on how narrowly or broadly you define "strategic objective." The task of achieving strategic objectives is not upto the military - military is just one tool that can be used to partially achieve strategic objectives. It also requires a skilled understanding of geopolitical outlook and landscape, diplomacy, developing friends, alienating foes, and creating a long term environment on the back of economic growth etc that would lead to a satisfying strategic objectives in the long run. Military by itself is in no position to achieve stragetic objectives.

Although, I would agree that something needs to be done about communist China - Islamic Pakistan alliance that seems to have developed over the last few decades and is a great risk to the long term future of India.

[RajaJi]

Well, as much as I and I'm sure others on this forum and elsewhere think that this is the correct time to strike porkistan. I really don't think our leaders are upto it, they just don't have it in them to pull something like this off. Unless next time the terrorists kill a few netas and their family members, I don't think GoI will take any military action against pukistan, other then giving some lip service to pacify the anger of the masses. Our netas always do what's best for them, something that will get them praises from the interanational community and minorities in India. They will always opt not to strike militariliy and show the world that they have taken the high ground (gandhigiri). It's really ridiculous, but there's really not much a patriot can do other then watch all this tamasha. Even if there is to be a military conflict, these Indian netas will run to the u.n. or declare a ceasefire or something right at the moment the Indian forces are winning and have the upper hand, or they will instruct the Indian forces to not go over the LOC or some other idiotic rule that will hurt the Indian Army more in a conflict, putting them at a disadvantage, while the neta takes praises in being "raja harish chandra" ki aulad (gandhigiri at work again). Maybe the only way to change these politicians is to dress em up in military attire give them a rifle and put them in the fontlines in case there's a war. Maybe when they're in the solider's shoes they will understand that wars are not won by being a gandhi and following rules of dharma. Even Rama had to strike Bali behind the back in Ramayana, and Laxman had to pounce on Inderjeet, son of Ravana, while he was conducting prayers to a godess, which were against dharamyudh, but to defeat the devil, sometimes you have to change the rules of engagement. Even Lord Krishna had to break his oath and pick up shastr, in Mahabharat to defeat the Kaurvas.

[shynee]

India's options on Pakistan still open
By Richard M Bennett

Pakistan can rightly be described as a failing state. Its internal unity has dissolved into open warfare in significant parts of the country and its relations with India, its heavily armed and nuclear capable neighbor, are in tatters. Even the patience of its long suffering ally, the United States is now wearing decidedly thin.

Pakistan has a militaristic society that has grown tired of its generals playing politics and instead placed in charge a civilian government that soon appeared to be virtually incapable of tackling head-on the main issues threatening to tear apart the fabric of the nation:

The growing influence of Islamic extremists in FATA (Federally Administered Tribal Areas), Pakistan-administered Kashmir and many of the northern cities in particular. The devious role played by the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence) agency with what appears to be evidence that it is still supporting terrorist activity in Afghanistan, Indian-controlled Kashmir and most significantly within India itself.
The degree to which extreme Islamic beliefs have been wholeheartedly accepted within large parts of the regular army and the junior ranks of the officer corps in particular.

There can be little doubt that besides shoring up the world's shattered economy and dealing with a potentially nuclear armed Iran, high on the list of priorities for the incoming Barack Obama administration will be the fear of a meltdown in Pakistan some time in 2009.

Obama's choice of Hillary Clinton as his secretary of state is a highly significant move in relation to South Asia and has been broadly welcomed by many observers in New Delhi.

Clinton developed a close working relationship with both India and the Indian-American community back home during the eight years her husband Bill Clinton served as president.

It is unlikely that the new US administration will or would want to continue to excuse Pakistan's wanton unwillingness to at least attempt to deal with the rising tide of Islamic extremism threatening both the integrity of the nation and the stability of an already troubled region.

Pakistan's options
In response to the growing chorus of international criticism Pakistan has hinted at a variety of responses, but looked at carefully these would appear to be largely empty gestures made by an increasingly panicked and confused government in Islamabad.

The Pakistan army presently deploys four regular infantry divisions (7th, 9th, 14th and 23rd) in the FATA, the vital region that borders Afghanistan. Islamabad quickly made it known that in response to any saber-rattling by New Delhi, it would be forced to move these units back to their old defensive positions on the border with India. This in theory would expose the Western forces inside Afghanistan and their long supply route which sees some 350 trucks carrying over 7,000 tons through Pakistan every day to even greater danger from Islamic insurgents. The recent attack that destroyed over 100 US and NATO supply vehicles on Peshawar's outer ring road merely served to highlight this threat.

However, as many seasoned observers quickly pointed out, the Pakistan army with a severely restricted logistic capability would not be able to achieve this massive redeployment quickly or effectively.

Indeed, as many of the army units currently deployed in the FATA have shown little or no interest in actually combating the local insurgency, the withdrawal of one or all of these divisions would probably not have a significant effect on the overall border security situation.

Recently some Pakistan officials have felt it necessary to quietly remind New Delhi - and the world in general - that it is a nuclear power. However, there must still be some doubt as to how many usable nuclear devices Pakistan actually has. Some estimates have been as low as just two 20 kiloton warheads.

Whatever the correct figure may be, Washington's studied indifference to Islamabad's implied nuclear warning goes some considerable way to confirming reports that Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is very closely monitored, if not actually controlled in some way by the United States. It is quite possible that any attempt to move these weapons, let alone deploy them would result in a swift US response and their total destruction.

No change yet
Pakistan is also once again going through the pantomime performance of publicly arresting a few leading members of the Islamic extremist groups that proliferate inside their borders.

Short of these prisoners now being handed over to the Indian authorities along with many others listed as terrorists, New Delhi and an increasingly impatient Washington are likely to remain largely unimpressed.

There has still been no serious attempt by the Pakistan authorities to disarm the militants, close down their training camps or dismantle the organizational structure that provides both new recruits and financial support.

The Lashkar-e-Taiba and other such militant groups with a long track record of carrying out attacks in both Kashmir and India remain very largely untouched and free to continue planning the next terrorist outrage.

The ISI apparently continues to covertly arm, support and train Islamic militants, and some observers have claimed that they may even play a significant role in planning and directing attacks such as those on Mumbai.

Despite the replacement of Lieutenant General Nadeem Taj as head of the ISI on October 1 by the reportedly more moderate Lieutenant General Ahmed Shujaa Pasha, seen by some as an attempt to placate Washington, little of substance has altered and the ISI seems as firmly wedded to its pro-Taliban, pro-Kashmir, anti-Indian stance as before.

The Pakistan army also appears content to remain on its path toward radicalization, providing yet more training and - according to some sources – playing a large role in protecting and maintaining the militant infrastructure.

However, this level of semi-official Pakistan involvement with national and international terrorism may finally bring significant problems for the government in Islamabad.

India's options
India, though usually hamstrung by governments that appear to suffer from some form of strange rictus that prevents anything more than a studied inaction and overwhelming willingness to compromise, may now be forced to at least consider a genuine response.

If the present Congress party government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is removed in the upcoming elections, its replacement in the form of the nationalistic Hindu Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) would probably be far more likely to launch a military strike at Pakistan.

The BJP has long accused Congress of being insufficiently aggressive in combating terrorism and now argues that the Mumbai attack was in part a result of this failure.

If the killing of over 170 civilians, police and military in Mumbai proves to be India's September 11, 2001, then it will not be long before New Delhi now finally accepts that one of the most important ways to protect its citizens is to be viewed as willing to retaliate against those who openly sponsor, house, arm and train terrorists.

This could be by way of limited air strikes and commando raids on the scores of Islamic terrorist camps and arms dumps most likely within Pakistan-administered Kashmir, initially.

Some sources have even suggested that the outline of a suitable plan was shown to US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice recently. Rice is reported to have quietly commented that while the United States was strongly opposed to a full-scale war between India and Pakistan, it might not be totally averse to some form of limited counter-terror operations.

Risk of greater confrontation
However, a lack of serious and successful crackdowns on Islamic extremist groups within Pakistan by the government of Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani, or the repetition of major terrorist acts against Indian targets, could lead to a far wider and more significant confrontation.

Under those circumstances New Delhi may have no alternative but to launch major punitive military operations across the border into Pakistan itself. It is possible that a clearly exasperated United States may even sanction this as a much-needed salutary lesson for Islamabad that it must take responsibility for the actions of its citizens and for any extremist groups based safely within its national borders.

A military assault is not, of course, the only means of applying pressure on Pakistan. Other punitive measures have been aired ranging from an Indian naval blockade of Karachi and the coast to the withdrawal of large amounts of vital financial aid used to shore up Pakistan's crumbling economy.

Pakistan is rightfully a proud country, but has little to be genuinely proud about in its current situation. It is a nation that has been constantly let down by a succession of weak civilian governments and heavy-handed military dictatorships.

It now faces economic meltdown, a chaotic political situation, widespread extremism and the growing disaffection of significant numbers of the middle class, civil service and the military.

Some experienced observers have openly suggested that tanks and armored vehicles may once again be seen on the streets of Pakistan's cities as the military takes back power from yet another failed civilian administration.

Normally this might have been greeted by a resigned and cautious welcome in Washington. However, this time it might just be that militant Islamic elements within the officer corps are staging a coup.

The real fear then is of an unstable Pakistan sinking into chaos and anarchy and vast amounts of territory, weapons and perhaps nuclear materials falling under the control of Islamic extremists linked to al-Qaeda.

This would without a doubt be the United States and India's worst nightmare. Indeed it might turn out to be the last act before decisive foreign military operations to neutralize Pakistan began in earnest.

Pakistan is potentially a powerful ally in the "war on terror" and a firm friend of the West. Sadly it has chosen to play the devious game of running with the fox and hunting with the hounds for far too long.

Islamabad's continued deceptions are having a caustic effect on its international relations and dangerously increasing tension with India.

Having lived by the sword for so long, Pakistan now risks dying by it as well.

[shynee]

Let's play hardball with Pakistan

SWAPAN DASGUPTA

Collectors of esoteric cricketing trivia may be aware of a letter published in The Times, London, on July 5, 1932. Written by O H T Dudley, a gentleman who spent 25 years teaching English in India, it recalled an intriguing sentence from an Indian schoolboy’s essay on cricket: “Cricket is a very comfortable game: in it we disremember all our Condition.” That, concluded Dudley, “seems to me a great saying worthy of the tongue that Shakespeare spake.”

Accustomed to wielding the red pencil, the old schoolteacher was too obsessed by correctness to recognise profundity. Last week, as India and England played their 100th Test match in India, “our Condition” was magically “disremember(ed)”. A characteristically swashbuckling Sehwag innings, complemented by the classical elegance of Sachin Tendulkar gave India a remarkable victory.

There were cheers when Sachin dedicated his innings to those died in Mumbai and there was an all-round show of gratitude to the England team for braving travel advisories and batting in a dangerous country. The whole occasion was so moving that Tunku Varadarajan, my chum from the carefree days, wrote in The Times that he had finally passed the infamous Tebbit test and had cheered for the Queen’s country.

It took 22 “flannelled fools” — Rudyard Kipling’s rather heartless description-playing in terrorist-infested India to make Tunku “disremember” his situation. Cricket transformed him into Her Majesty’s pukka subject. By that logic India was guilty of yet another Himalayan blunder — we seem to make a habit of it — in cancelling next month’s cricket tour of the Old Enemy. The sheer nobility of a Tendulkar or VVS Laxman standing up to a combination of hostile bowling and menacing barracking would surely have melted every second liberal heart in Clifton and won India a mountain of brownie points among the Aitchison College alumni.

There’s a “little bit of India in every Pakistani and a little bit of Pakistan in every Indian”, President Asif Zardari had claimed before a Delhi gathering just four days before 26/11. An exhibition of “disremember(ing)” in exotic corners of Punjab and Sind would surely have invoked ancestral memories and, who knows, even stirred some anguished Pakistanis to undertake a healing walk of Noakhali proportions past Nariman Point, the Gateway of India and culminating in the debris of the Sea Lounge at the Taj.

Tragically, when it comes to cross-border engagement, self-flagellation is the prerogative of only one side. In the mid-1990s, just as the other side was fine-tuning their war of a thousand cuts, some of our great and good evolved the doctrine of asymmetry. In plain language it involved Us overlooking every criminal misdemeanour and spoiling Them silly with over-indulgence.

The consequences were bewildering. In 1993, Mumbai witnessed blasts in seven different locations which led to 257 deaths and over 700 serious injuries. The bombings were a joint operation of the ISI and Mumbai’s criminal underworld. What was the Indian response? Between 1996 and 1998, India dismantled its entire intelligence gathering and covert networks in Pakistan, networks that had taken decades to build.

Therefore, while the ISI steadily increased its penetration within the country to the point it could attack Parliament and mount commando raids in the heart of Mumbai, India literally sold off its “assets” within Pakistan. Old-timers in the intelligence services still recall with horror the unconscionable betrayal of those who had helped safeguard India. Many of them died horrible deaths. If, and if ever, India’s deepest secrets are ferreted out from the archives, they will identify the people responsible for India wilfully turning the other cheek.

India often flaunts its credentials as a “soft” power. The belief is that cricket, Bollywood, information technology and our media will wow the enemy so thoroughly that it will recognise the senselessness of its military and the mullahs. It’s a theory based on the unfailing Indian ability to turn disability into philosophy. India peddles its “soft” power because it has lost its “hard” power capabilities.

Last Friday, Pranab Mukherjee announced that a cussed Pakistan had forced India to “consider the entire range of options that exist.” It’s telling that the minister didn’t spell out the list. The country may have discovered it has peremptorily foreclosed one of its most compelling options: cricket and the art of disremember(ing).

This leaves the land of the Mahatma with the terrifying option of confronting the enemy with love, lollipops and the comforting assurance that there is a bit of you in us. In the words of the great music hall genius, Noel Coward, “Let's let them feel they’re swell again and bomb us all to hell again, / But don't let’s be beastly to the Hun.”

[sanjaykumar]

The pressure is building. Is this compellence or it the prologue to active hostilities such as India's meticulous diplomatic and military preparation in 1971. This time India may be able to elicit fundamental changes in Pak policy and civilian-ISI-military relations without firing a shot.


I believe the US has certain objectives it wants India to fulfill wrt the ISI. Expect reports of GBU-28 being readied and leaked reports of Indian advances in/American facilitation of Indian-enhanced GPS accuracy.


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2008_pg1_1

Diplomatic campaign: The Indian government has convened a two-day conference of India’s 120 ambassadors and high commissioners today (Monday) during which Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will initiate a global campaign to build international pressure on Pakistan in the wake of the Mumbai attacks, the Indian media said in various reports on Sunday.

Prior knowledge: Sources in the Indian government said New Delhi believed Pakistan Army and the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency had prior knowledge of the Mumbai attacks. “They may not have authored attacks, but they knew of both the Kabul as well as Mumbai attacks,” they said.

The assessment was shared at a security meeting chaired by Prime Minister Singh on Saturday night. Indian ministers, top security and intelligence officials and services chiefs attended the meeting.

Indian Army believes such terror outfits cannot be curbed unless the Pakistani military’s war-waging potential is severely damaged. There was also talk of launching “covert actions” against ISI either targeting its headquarters or using air and missile strikes on pinpointed targets without ground operations. But, that is likely to heighten tensions with Pakistan. A section within the security establishment is favouring limited actions within AJK.

An action like Operation Parakram – a grand deployment of Indian troops along the Pakistani border in 2001 – is also being discussed with the aim to hit Pakistan’s economy. iftikhar gilani/ agencies/daily times monitor

[shiv]

There is a lot of support for a "war" in Pakistan. The levels of frustration in Pakistan are so high, after multiple failed military and civilian governments, that a lot of people there look at war a way to purge Pakistan of all its self-perceived wrong and make a new beginning. So while the Pakistanis still hate India, there are many in Pakistan who are truly hoping for a war so as to rid the country of its misery and help them make a new start rather than to score a point against India. It their hearts of hearts they know that any all out war would lead to complete destruction of current Pakistani military/establishment and hence a new start.

My compliments - and I'm not saying that sarcastically. I don't know who you are and I probably would have attacked you about your forum name had I been admin.

But you certainly show a keen insight into one aspect of Pak-piskology and you earn my respect for that. There are a few articles quoting Pakis that back up your observation. An additional data point is that even as the holders of this view hate the set up in Pakistan, they hate India too and want India and Pakistan to be destroyed and "rebooted" - such is their frustration.

But I must offer you my sympathy and support in advance. On BRF - your post can be understood. You post what you have written outside and it will get a hostile reception from a whole lot of blinkered Indians. Only attacks of the intensity that occurred in Mumbai can wake up some Indians.

[ramana]

Do you really think that the Indian Army will wait for Pakistan to nuke us first in a full blown war? Policies like these are just that policies, they will be scrapped the moment India plunges into war. If an India-Pakistan war takes place, I bet my right arm that India will nuke those pigs back to stone age before they can even think of doing the same to India. The IA is not foolish, in an event of war & emergency, this Rajmata & our Sardar Ji will not do anything, they will be locked in a bunker, thats it. The people pulling the strings would then be our Generals, and they are not foolish & they don't have votebanks to cater to. They will nuke Porkistan & extract revenge of a thousand years in a moment of bright fury & destruction.

I am not sure we are expecting a lot from the army command in our fervent wish to see the leadership and determination we miss in the current existing crop of politicians. The Indian army started out with one great disadvantage - it was nurtured under a British colonial doctrine that justified its opportunism in selecting the major army components based on ethnicity - practically those groups who happened to help them during the 1857 war. This gives a rather uneasy picture of clan/family loyalty to opportunity rather than patriotism. The British imperialists maintained this throughout, and we can see the effects in the treatment of the INA soldiers, or the treatment of the naval mutineers of 1948 - who surrendered on the deceptive promise and requests of the Indian political leadership. This was a command structure carefully and deliberately built up to remain loyal to individual political families in power - and we know the fallouts of such "family influenced" choices during the reign of Nehru I in the first Indo-China war [the Kaul episode]. This structure of tenuous control by a "particular family" over the army higher echelons is coming to a shaky phase - out of two processes - (1) the British coordinated and nurtured development of upper echelons of civil and military hierarchy through a complex process of education, psychological manipulation and invented separation/alienation/disidentification from the "commoners" is weakening as the newer post-colonial generations are educated in increasingly free-from-post-colonial hangover in the institutions and finding their way into the lower ranks of the forces, and the military traditional aristocracy is getting winded down (2) the weakening of the "personal hold" over Indian politics in two major shocks of 1977 and the BJP interlude which has made the traditional "officer class" aware of the possibilities of alternate paths upwards rather than relying purely on loyalty to a particular family - and the realization that in the future the scenario of "personal influence" based track could become altogether unavailable.

Just as Indian politics, the Indian army is in a transition period too, although just like the politicians the army command may not actually be aware of this. All over the subcontinent, the newer generations of army recruits show the social processes going on for decades - where the "mass will" gradually trickles in and finds its way into the army - after the removal of the colonial imperial authorities whose regime depended on exactly the prevention of such trickling in of popular will. This is reflected in the increasing Jihadization of the Pakistani army and the increasing Islamic orthodoxy in BD - there is no reason why the Indian army will be free of this trend too in reflecting more an dmore of the majority trend in Indian society.

But this trend is not yet so strong or has been in play for such a long time that the upper command will be swayed completely by it. The greatest difficulty of the Indian army has been the weak political will of the reigning political leadership which makes it vacillating on strategic questions and leads to complete lack of calrity on concrete strategic issues - for example, as relevant for the case under discussion, what to do with the TSP ? after bombing it to smithereens, what should the Indian gov and the army do with the place, the people, and the consequences? should they incorporate it into a province of India? should they allow it to be a newly designed republic? should they incorporate part and leave the other bits to the "dogs"? what to do with the surviving military machine and political class? should democracy be restored or replaced on a "wait and see basis" by military rule or authoritarian givernance until the population is deemed ready for "democracy"? what to do with the captured ? go for a Nuremberg style trial or not? what to do with the Ulema at the heart of this pain and blood? what to do with the Islamic theology that reigns through the madrassahs and permeates the society? lots and lots of questions on which the current crop of politicians have no clue at all - this handicaps the Indian army - and makes its strategic objectives necessarily confused and therefore self-defeating.

What many BRfites are hoping for, comes from a clear political will and vision about what to do with the inseparable twin questions of the state of Pakistan and the Islamic Jihadi ideology - and the Indian army should not be burdened with this expectation at the current state - they have not been prepared and nurtured to do this. They have a much a greater role to play and much greater rewards to receive - but in the future, when the polutics is ready.

Interesting post. When we harp on the Kaul episode and the blow it dealt India-China debacle, we forget that the general in charge was Gen. Thapar. He dropped out of sight by resigning and the media concentrated on Kaul and Krishna Menon. I think he was also related to Nehru.

And dont forget Krishan Menon was trying to purge the Indian Army of its officer corps and promote loyalists/self serving folks as Kaul.

One thing I noted during Kargil was that the officers were the children of ex-servicemen and very few of the old elites. So a sea change was coming over in the army I thought.

[brihaspati]

Ramanaji,
Thapar, Kaul and KM all had roles to play, and KM perhaps the most sinister. However, it is perhaps better not to touch KM on open forum - the US state dept. still releases documents from the period after significant blackening out of "sources". Those interested could do a little research on KM...US and UK secret services...Indian student organization in UK....British Communists....and "future" Indian leaders of the early twentieth century in UK. I used Kaul more as a mnemonic!

[Chinmayanand]

deleted -

[ManuT]

I agree to with the view that an India and Pakistan conflict is unavoidable, India is just allowing Pakistan to babble itself out of the game.

On India's no first use policy, IMO it is the saner policy.

The thing is, a nuclear strike will have fallout - because of proximity and sharede weather patterns - on both the Countries. Besides, since nuking carries a SERIOUS moral burden, it should only be done as an act of retaliation. I would not want India to initiate it.

If Pakistan is really THAT stupid, it would have forefieted its right to exist, for which we need to GUARANTEE Second and Final Strikes.

IMO Pakistan resorts to Nuclear blackmail - because it is one of the few cards it has that it gets the attention of the West. IMO, India hesitates not because of the Nuclear bluff, but because it will setback the economic growth. Since this growth was targeted in the Mumbai terror attacks, conflict has now become inevitable.

India's No First Strike policy does not discount a First Conventional Strike to defang a Nuclear Strike. Also, today if Pakistan readies nuclear strike it will give open season to US Speical Forces on Pakistani nuclear arsenal. Hence, there is a need to co-ordinate options with other Democratic nations.

India's retaliation will not be just an India-Pakistan match as in the past. Pakistan's Nuclear arsenal, has ensured that it will be a joint US-NATO-Israel-India-Afghanistan effort. In that sense Pakistan has cooked its own goose.

US is putting more troops in Afghanistan and once they are in sufficient numbers Pakistan will not be in a position to move any of its troops to its East. In case of such a conflict resupplying US troops in Afghanistan is not even an issue, Indo-US air forces will just fly over Pakistan. Mumbai terror attacks have created this alliance by default.

Pakistan will launch a First Nuclear Strike on India? I don't think so. Any escalation will remain at conventional level. Hence, No First Strike policy should stand.
----
India can inflict serious damage if it can ensure Pakistan deny not 6 billion USD loans it seeks, without firing a shot.

[ramana]

It seems 120 envoys are back in Delhi for consultations. i would have the evoy to TSP delay a little bit to give the message.

[Paul]

There could be two explanations, not necessarily divergent;

1. situation is similar to march 1971, where there is tremendous pressure from the aam admi to act (as in 1971). the ground is being prepped diplomatically as IG did when she went on a world tour at that time.

2. UPA wants to time this to be take full advantage in the next general elections. To pull this off

[Chandragupta]

Do you really think that the Indian Army will wait for Pakistan to nuke us first in a full blown war? Policies like these are just that policies, they will be scrapped the moment India plunges into war. If an India-Pakistan war takes place, I bet my right arm that India will nuke those pigs back to stone age before they can even think of doing the same to India. The IA is not foolish, in an event of war & emergency, this Rajmata & our Sardar Ji will not do anything, they will be locked in a bunker, thats it. The people pulling the strings would then be our Generals, and they are not foolish & they don't have votebanks to cater to. They will nuke Porkistan & extract revenge of a thousand years in a moment of bright fury & destruction.

I am not sure we are expecting a lot from the army command in our fervent wish to see the leadership and determination we miss in the current existing crop of politicians. The Indian army started out with one great disadvantage - it was nurtured under a British colonial doctrine that justified its opportunism in selecting the major army components based on ethnicity - practically those groups who happened to help them during the 1857 war. This gives a rather uneasy picture of clan/family loyalty to opportunity rather than patriotism. The British imperialists maintained this throughout, and we can see the effects in the treatment of the INA soldiers, or the treatment of the naval mutineers of 1948 - who surrendered on the deceptive promise and requests of the Indian political leadership. This was a command structure carefully and deliberately built up to remain loyal to individual political families in power - and we know the fallouts of such "family influenced" choices during the reign of Nehru I in the first Indo-China war [the Kaul episode]. This structure of tenuous control by a "particular family" over the army higher echelons is coming to a shaky phase - out of two processes - (1) the British coordinated and nurtured development of upper echelons of civil and military hierarchy through a complex process of education, psychological manipulation and invented separation/alienation/disidentification from the "commoners" is weakening as the newer post-colonial generations are educated in increasingly free-from-post-colonial hangover in the institutions and finding their way into the lower ranks of the forces, and the military traditional aristocracy is getting winded down (2) the weakening of the "personal hold" over Indian politics in two major shocks of 1977 and the BJP interlude which has made the traditional "officer class" aware of the possibilities of alternate paths upwards rather than relying purely on loyalty to a particular family - and the realization that in the future the scenario of "personal influence" based track could become altogether unavailable.

Just as Indian politics, the Indian army is in a transition period too, although just like the politicians the army command may not actually be aware of this. All over the subcontinent, the newer generations of army recruits show the social processes going on for decades - where the "mass will" gradually trickles in and finds its way into the army - after the removal of the colonial imperial authorities whose regime depended on exactly the prevention of such trickling in of popular will. This is reflected in the increasing Jihadization of the Pakistani army and the increasing Islamic orthodoxy in BD - there is no reason why the Indian army will be free of this trend too in reflecting more an dmore of the majority trend in Indian society.

But this trend is not yet so strong or has been in play for such a long time that the upper command will be swayed completely by it. The greatest difficulty of the Indian army has been the weak political will of the reigning political leadership which makes it vacillating on strategic questions and leads to complete lack of calrity on concrete strategic issues - for example, as relevant for the case under discussion, what to do with the TSP ? after bombing it to smithereens, what should the Indian gov and the army do with the place, the people, and the consequences? should they incorporate it into a province of India? should they allow it to be a newly designed republic? should they incorporate part and leave the other bits to the "dogs"? what to do with the surviving military machine and political class? should democracy be restored or replaced on a "wait and see basis" by military rule or authoritarian givernance until the population is deemed ready for "democracy"? what to do with the captured ? go for a Nuremberg style trial or not? what to do with the Ulema at the heart of this pain and blood? what to do with the Islamic theology that reigns through the madrassahs and permeates the society? lots and lots of questions on which the current crop of politicians have no clue at all - this handicaps the Indian army - and makes its strategic objectives necessarily confused and therefore self-defeating.

What many BRfites are hoping for, comes froma clear political will and vision about what to do with the inseparable twin questions of the state of Pakistan and the Islamic Jihadi ideology - and the Indian army should not be burdened with this expectation at the current state - they have not been prepared and nurtured to do this. They have a much a greater role to play and much greater rewards to receive - but in the future, when the polutics is ready.

The questions such as what to do with Pakistan after it has been bombed like a whore, will arise later on. In an event of war, the most important question is of survival. In 99 Kargil, the NDA government side stepped to give the armed forces the whole court to play on, despite the limitation of not crossing the LoC & IB. In a full blown war, any political party cannot make the mistake of making a judgement superseding that of the army. Make no mistakes, our politicians are pussies, they know that their party & they themselves could be stoned to death by the people if they make one wrong judgement and that changes the face of the war. Let's take Kaangress for example, if the Rajmata & Sardar Ji let even an Indian city to be nuked, Congress would be devastated forever. They will be hunted like dogs. It's a nightmare for every single party in India, to let the country be attacked with nuclear weapons. Thus, arises the need for them to need scapegoats. If a minister takes a call not to use N-weapons in the first strike, and India is attacked with nukes, he'll not only be lynched in public but his party will be doomed for atleast a century. We don't have leaders like Indira Gandhi any more, who, despite all her flaws, had a clear vision of what she wanted from the war & after it. The Indian Army has since grown, from 1962, both in strategic presence & power. I hope & believe, that in an event of the Indian leadership chickening out (which is very probable indeed), it will be left to the IA to take over the mantle.

I truly believe that the Army has grown tired of the weak political will, there are Armymen who have spoken at lengths, off the record, about the growing frustration in the IA. A war will only ignite that frustration.

[Singha]

I have decided in my mind that I can live with 5 more years of the
inept UPA govt should they give pakistan the richly deserved beating
it deserves and reaps a electoral victory. one has to think tactically,
there is no guarantee the BJP would do it and moreover they can always
be easily accused of anti-muslim agenda if they do. the muslim vote banking UPA has no such vulnerable cleft in the armour.

there is supposed to be 2-day closed door meeting of foreign country envoys ongoing in delhi. this is apart from the indian ambassadors meeting methinks.

the 'international community' cannot be expected much from, but
should atleast stop all economic aid to TSP including the IMF bailout
until we get our men handed over at the border.

[Singha]

if elections are in april, they need two clear months before that to
run the PR campaign and let the dust of war clear.

which means Jan-Feb is the only available window. Paki babbling is
looking quite eccentric lately. there is not much need to give them too
much rope, their lies are now well documented in the media.

a long and sustained air campaign to wipe the PN and PAF off the
map would be best for the region. the PA can be managed by unkil
and demobbed into a frontier/anti-taliban force if they want to
survive, else die under the rain of B52 bombs if they go feral and
merge with pakiban in the western caliphate.

zardari will be appointed as a regent to administer the remainder,
with western and indian support.

[Lalmohan]

wiping PN off the map may only take 24 hrs or less. grounding PAF similar, destroying PAF completely perhaps 72 hrs. In all this, the PA can be left bottled up and tending to their goats. PNS Iqbal also is a legitimate anti-terror target.

i am torn between the scenario where PA opts for Samson option or the one where they think of their long term survival. either way the chips are down - there are now three clear constituencies in pakistan - the civilians who see ridding themselves off the faujis as the best way, the jehadis who want to turn the civilians into slaves, and the faujis who are enjoying the best of both worlds.

so, who guarantees the civilians safety from the beards if the fauj is dismantled?

[Dilbu]

Pakistan scrambles fighter jets over major cities

Pakistan scrambled fighter jets over several major cities on Monday, including the federal capital, as it said it had stepped up "vigilance" in view of the "current environment".
The aircraft roared over Islamabad [Images], the nearby garrison city of Rawalpindi and other cities this afternoon as Air Force spokesman Air Commodore Humayun Viqar Zephyr said in a statement: "in view of the current environment, PAF has enhanced its vigilance."
The brief statement from the air force did not give any more details. Residents in the capital made panic calls to media stations to ask about the low-flying aircrafts.

The air sorties by the PAF came a day after External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee [Images] said India is keeping "all options open" to deal with the aftermath of the Mumbai terror attacks.

India has blamed Pakistan-based elements, including the Lashkar-e-Tayiba [Images] terror group, for the attacks and asked Pakistan to take action against them.

Congress party chief Sonia Gandhi [Images] too has said that India could give a "befitting reply" to those involved in the Mumbai attacks.

The two countries were involved in a spat last week over alleged violations of Pakistani airspace by Indian warplanes.

Pakistan lodged a formal protest that Indian jets had violated an agreement on airspace violations in the Pakistan-occupied Kashmir and Lahore [Images] sectors, a charge flatly denied by India.

Indian High Commissioner Satyabrata Pal is in Delhi [Images] to attend a meeting of all Indian envoys and Pakistani High Commissioner Shahid Malik is in Islamabad for consultations.

[Chandragupta]

so, who guarantees the civilians safety from the beards if the fauj is dismantled?

Easy, we destroy both - the beards and the phauj.

[SaiK]

we need to put pressure on the middle east.. sorry, we may have to take a factor that we know is bad, but chankiyan should we be, and tell them, to choke pakistan not to supply oil/sanction them. if we can do it, then we have something in us.. else, pakistan will get a free ride after mumbai attacks. american pressure is needed, but a gulf pressure could end paki craps much earlier.

[Singha]

beards and civilians are all mixed up. faujis are the only clearly identifiable elements with PN followed by PA being the clear and easy whipping boys.

civilians will have to take their chances and move in concert with police
to control the beards - stuff them both, civilians are all busy donating
in zakat boxes setup by terrorists in the markets.

more the internal bloodletting the better for the world.

I am willing to walk around blr 10 times with a placard saying "10 janpath zindabad" if they authorize finally going in and doing some
serious damage. I am willing to live on a diet of rice, dal and potatoes
for 5 yrs likewise if need be. no milk, no meat, no fish, no eggs.

I want revenge.

[sum]

Quoting Swapan Dasgupta's part of the article where he mentions how our assets were betrayed in Pak in 96-97.

#@&$^$& I.K.Gujaral...May you feel the wrath of each of the assets you betrayed even in the netherworld.
WKKs doing their dramabaazi/nautanki harmlessly is one thing but getting Indian interests smashed is another!!!


Why is the post not getting accepted if i quote someone??

[ramana]

beards and civilians are all mixed up. faujis are the only clearly identifiable elements with PN followed by PA being the clear and easy whipping boys.

civilians will have to take their chances and move in concert with police
to control the beards - stuff them both, civilians are all busy donating
in zakat boxes setup by terrorists in the markets.

more the internal bloodletting the better for the world.

I am willing to walk around blr 10 times with a placard saying "10 janpath zindabad" if they authorize finally going in and doing some
serious damage. I am willing to live on a diet of rice, dal and potatoes
for 5 yrs likewise if need be. no milk, no meat, no fish, no eggs.

I want revenge.

This has to be highlighted.
BTW once the PA kabila guards are shown to be defeated the civilians will turn on them and clean them out and the beards.

[ramana]

Cong Protecting Antulay for Muslim Votes: Uddhav Thackeray

Cong Protecting Antulay for Muslim Votes: Uddhav Thackeray


PUNE, DEC 22 (PTI)
Congress was not inclined to sack Union Minorities Affairs Minister A R Antulay for his controversial remarks on the killing of Mumbai ATS chief Hemant Karkare in order to retain its Muslim vote bank, Shiv Sena Executive president Uddhav Thackeray has alleged.

Addressing a farmers rally at Saswad, about 60 km from here last night, Thackeray said his party would press its Hindutva agenda with greater vigour to dislodge the Congress-led UPA government in the coming Lok Sabha elections.

Hitting out at the Union Agriculture Minister Sharad Pawar for his "failure" to prevent farmers' suicides in Maharashtra, the Sena leader said the minister always remain preoccupied with cricket affairs.

Mocking at Pawar, he said, it is difficult to make out whether Pawar held the portfolio of agriculture or sports.

Its not correct reading. Antulloo is covering for Dawood Ibrahim's role. Same with Pawar. Its not cricket but the match betting that goes on for Pawar.

I think the focus should be on the underworld linkages to the terrorist attack. Its not Indian Muslims who also suffer from this terrorists attacks from TSP.

And

I was shocked by Antulay's remarks : Shabana Azmi

[ezra]

The question that should be asked in my opinion is what will be the response of the GOI to the next terrorist attack originating from Pakistan, which no doubt is being planned this very minute.

Pakistan has to be placed on terms that future attacks originating from its soil will not be tolerated and its claim of sovereignty over tribal arears harbouring terrorist bases will not be recognized and be regarded as Stateless arears.

[Lalmohan]

the probability of another terror strike on india is very high - the PA want desperately to initiate a war with India to take the heat off the afghan front - now you have to ask yourself is that for the survival of pakistan or the furtherance of the khilafat dream? the PA also want Unkil to stop the war quickly so that they retain their goats

a more measured destruction of their war machine is better. they don't need PN and PAF to save themselves from the beards. We can help them with redistributing their hardware... our not going in on the ground is more likely to make them implode

[John Snow]

The 122 envoy Pasha Saluja is still paking bags as per MI and his three party analysts (Maverick Indian and his bunds 005 006 008). Saluja is confused as MI says
"This is not a request"

[p_saggu]

so, who guarantees the civilians safety from the beards if the fauj is dismantled?

Destroy the teeth of Pak Army, so that it is effectively a police force that can battle it out for its own survival and the civilians survival in Punjab remnant. The others breakaway entities - Sindh, Balochistan will go through a rough phase of consolidating the idea of nationhood and stabilizing over a period of time, will need to be helped and guided along the way.

Pashtoonistan, well, cough cough.

Pakjab - will be hellishly Pissed off. will stop all water downstream. All its military and civilian elites will fly off to Dubai / ouirope / amreeka. The ones who will be left will have to fight it out with hafiz mohd sayeed for control

[Prabu]

It seems 120 envoys are back in Delhi for consultations. i would have the evoy to TSP delay a little bit to give the message.

Ramana garu & other BR elites,

What should be our tactical military response / economical ?

1) Missile attacks on select targets in POK along with SPL operations ? or
2) Do a pre emptive Air strike to destroy Paki air power completely
and dominate paki air space or
3) Let paki's have a natural starved death due to poor economy , by blocking all aid funds or

some thing else ?

In my view is Option 1 would give a chance to paki's to hit back by air.
Hence my preference is for option 2. This will kill what ever pride is left over with paki army ! and make them to dance to our tunes !
Admin views please ?

[Prem]

India FM: We will act on Mumbai if Pakistan won't

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081222/ap_ ... a_shooting
NEW DELHI – Pakistan is shifting blame and responsibility for last month's deadly attacks in Mumbai, India's foreign minister charged Monday, adding that Delhi would take action against the perpetrators if Islamabad failed to.

India also gave Pakistan a letter written by Mohammed Ajmal Kasab, the only gunman captured after the rampage. Kasab wrote that he and the nine other gunmen involved in the Nov. 26 attack all came from Pakistan, India's Foreign Ministry said. He also requested a meeting with Pakistani envoys, the ministry said.

Islamabad has not acknowledged that Kasab is Pakistani and has said it is waiting for proof of his citizenship before it will take further action.

Mumbai attack hotels greet guests BBC

[brihaspati]

India FM: We will act on Mumbai if Pakistan won't

India will act, okay - but how?

A surgical air/missile strike to take out or punish terror camps? If India has detailed, and up to date info on strength/facilities/location (which implies infiltration) perhaps feasible. But this in itself will not prevent regeneration of these camps, and it will be a tactical mistake to think that these terror camps are stationary by nature. The fixed locations could simply be deceptive, while the whole campaign by the Pakiban smacks of mobile warfare used by the Chinese Red Army in its early days. If most of these strikes are near or about POK, Kashmiri Jihad in addition to Pakibani Jihad will galvanize almost all of Pak - it will really be a fanatsy to imagine that the "civilian" will not side with the "beard" - this will be the great opportunity to break the vast sense of national ennui and frustration in the Pak national project - give something to do, some sense of purpose for its people, something to focus their existence and energies on. This in itself is not bad if India is prepared to go the full hog. But is the GOI comfortable with the possible consequences within its own backyard - is it sure of the reaction of the vast networks of orthodox Islamic thought and leadership based within India like the Deobandis who after all inspired almost all of the modern Islamic Jihadi thought processes? What if the Muslim populations in Kashmir as well as substantial populations in North India decide to act for the Pakiban - either militarily or politically - in the "rear"? Moreover, India will have to follow up the strikes with actual military takeover of at least the entire POK, as otherwise all gains of the strikes will be lost.

There is also no existing "Kashmir doctrine" - a bold policy statement about India's decisions about the entire region of Kashmir. The Congress had a great chance to pose as "devil's advocate" :
(1) Hey all Jihadis and supporters of Jihadis from Euro cultures - you have to drop the claim of religion based nationhood, at least for Kashmir as otherwise it will be difficult for us to prevent claims of "Hindu" based Indian national identity
(2) We have to reunite the whole of Kashmir under "secular" regimes, as otherwise in the future this could happen anyway under "Hindu nationalism"
(3) So it is mutually beneficial to agree to this unification under "us".

A less sarcastic but realistic Kashmir doctrine needs to exist (using current convenient "weaknesses" ):

(1) religion based national identity is not recognized by the Indian constitution and India therefore has to prevent formation of such an identity in POK.
(2) India will do all that is necessary to reunite POK with the rest of India
(3) Separatism in Kashmir is based on religious identities aimed at complete exclusion and liquidation of non-Muslims as evidenced in the genocidic treatment of Kashmiri pundits and therefore a treasonable offence and will be treated so. India will treat this as a "major surgery" to save the "life" of the nation, even if a major portion of Kashmir appears to support this treasonable offence.
(4) India looks at reunification of POK with India as part of defeating forces of religious retrogression, and as part of liberation of subcontinental populations from retrogression back into primitive cultures.

[ramana]

Deccan Chronicle, 23 Dec 2008

Pranab has a sudden realization!!!

Pranab: We are alone


New Delhi, Dec. 22: The external affairs minister, Mr Pranab Mukherjee, suggested that India was all alone in its efforts to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan “which is the greatest terrorist danger to peace and security in the entire civilised world.” Mr Mukherjee was addressing over 100 Indian ambassadors and high commissioners at the first-ever conference of Indian mission chiefs, being held in the backdrop of the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks.

Mr Mukherjee said there had been “some effort” by the international community to bring Pakistan to book but this is “not enough.” “Much more needs to be done (by the international community) and the actions should be pursued to their logical conclusion,” he said. Mr Mukherjee said New Delhi, which had so far acted with utmost restraint, hoped the international community would use its influence to urge Pakistan to take effective action against terrorism, but he iterated that New Delhi was acutely conscious that “ultimately it is we who have to deal with this problem”.

“We will take all measures necessary as we deem fit to deal with the situation,” he asserted. “In pursuit of our objectives, we are not closing any option. We will explore all options because we are obliged as our people were killed and properties destroyed,” he said. India expected the “civilian government of Pakistan” to take effective steps to deal with elements within Pakistan who still continue the use of terrorism as an instrument of state policy but “unfortunately Pakistan’s response so far has demonstrated their earlier tendency to resort to a policy of denial and to seek to deflect and shift the blame and responsibility.”

I guess he hasnt read Panchatantra at the least he should have read Aseops' tales. Sounds like bleat in front of the envoys.

[JwalaMukhi]

PA has already initiated war with India. What PA is hoping is for escalation.
There is nothing that prevents the BakiSh1theads from launching strikes on India, as a last ditch attempt of war with India as their final suicidal strategy. BakiSh1theads will go to full scale war and there is no need to wait for India to escalate the issue.
The only reason PA sh1theads are not going to war is, they and most importantly their handlers are not ready for the consequences.
Although, the conditions are causing the PA to implode, their implosion will not be without explosion. Meaning, the PA is not going to melt away when they have more enticing chance to surrender as in BD war. Next time, the stamp issue from what is left of Bak, can boast of beating the previous record: number of surrendered prisoner PA thugs in India.

Either way India needs to prepare its citizens with adequate information about the fundamental change that pak will undergo and the ramifications/fall out of it on India's citizenry. India needs to post-haste build the internal dynamics to meet this ugly prospect of doing the honors for the pigs.

[asprinzl]

wiping PN off the map may only take 24 hrs or less. grounding PAF similar, destroying PAF completely perhaps 72 hrs. In all this, the PA can be left bottled up and tending to their goats. PNS Iqbal also is a legitimate anti-terror target.

i am torn between the scenario where PA opts for Samson option or the one where they think of their long term survival. either way the chips are down - there are now three clear constituencies in pakistan - the civilians who see ridding themselves off the faujis as the best way, the jehadis who want to turn the civilians into slaves, and the faujis who are enjoying the best of both worlds.

so, who guarantees the civilians safety from the beards if the fauj is dismantled?

In the present scenario of evident presence of nuke weapons, India if ever she decides to use military option, the first half hour to second hour must be used to complete destruction of the Paki airpower and their ability to launch any nuke borne missiles. Thus the speculation of destroying the PAF in 72 hours to a week is non-starter. Cannot afford to give the enemy a single minute of respite because he might use the nuke the first chance he has.

The second stage of the action should be taking out partially damaged airpower assets that the enemy could revitalized in the next two three days and the assorted abilities to assemble and deliver nukes that survived with partial damages which the enemy could also revitalize in the next two three days.

The motif is to prevent even a single nuke deployment by the enemy.

Once the IAF have complete mastery of the airspace with assurance that there is no threat of the enemy sending into air any aerial platform nor missiles, other arms of the military and airforce can be brought in to do their assigned tasks.

If India botches the critical first half hour to and hour of the conflict, there will be damages that the PAF and their Surface to surface missiles could inflict on India.

Without the AWACS and dedicated satelite surveillance, this aerial blitz though not impossible but would be extremely extremely extremely difficult. Just imagine what wonders 100 extra Mirage-2005s would do if only the govt had not bungled on the MRCA deal.

Looking at it I understand why there is a lot of hesitation on the part of the government regarding military solution.
Avram

[shynee]

India Asks US to Fast-Track Request to Supply CBU-105