Indian Response to Terrorism

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Dec 2008 04:52

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... 24-hours/2
IAF plans to hit targets in 24 hours
Source: SPECIAL REPORT submitted 2 hours 6 minutes ago
Indian Air Force intends to hit certain target in Lahore and Azad Kashmir during the next 24 hours in the same way as the US Air Force is doing in the tribal areas of Pakistan, the sources confided. As per source Pakistan military leadership has refused to accept US pressure and deployed F-7 fighter jets at Lahore Air-base which are fully capable of not only intercepting Indian strikes but also counter-attacking effectively. All the air-force stations have been put on high alert and military leadership has made it clear on the US that in case of Indian attack, Pakistan will at once discontinue logistic support to US and shift it army from the western front to the eastern.

The arrival of the Interpol D.G to Pakistan also points to the fact that India is stressing hard upon Pakistan to hand over the persons demanded by her in list provided to Pakistan.
Meanwhile, the ex-Army Chief of Pakistan General (R) Aslam Baig has said that US General Mullen is pressing our authorities to allow India to hit certain targets, keeping silent and indifferent to the situation as they have been doing in case of US attacks, which he believes, will cool down India and diffuse tensions between the two countries.

I don’t think that conscientious Pakistani nation and brave armed forces of Pakistan will accept such a situation. This will be shameful and render Pakistan submission to India,” the retired General said. While talking

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 23 Dec 2008 05:12

So the Lawhore logic is
IF and when IAF hits targets its curtsey TSPA

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 Dec 2008 05:43

India Asks US to Fast-Track Request to Supply CBU-105

Dekho ji, I predicted it would be GBU-280. The Indians are ratcheting up the pressure on Pakistan to breaking point. No one procures ordance through the media.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 23 Dec 2008 05:43

Paki's Preparing for War

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 23 Dec 2008 06:58

New Delhi takes nuanced approach in dealing with Islamabad

Sandeep Dikshit

NEW DELHI: India has unveiled a nuanced approach in dealing with Pakistan after the Mumbai terror strikes. There is a feeling that the situation is different as compared to 2001-02 when tensions were high after the attack on Parliament. There is also an understanding of the new power structure in Pakistan which is evolving and under attack by other more established power centres.

New Delhi is clear that while international pressure is a force multiplier, other nations will not be able to help India fully realise its two objectives — prevent more such attacks and try the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks in Indian courts.

India is also keen on scotching speculation about a military strike being attributed to briefings by government officials. “No one in his right mind would go through this option or give the time frame which would only put everyone on notice,” said sources while denying that India ever resorted to coercive diplomacy. “This is a different situation from 2001-02. We have not recalled the High Commissioner or sent forces to the border as was the case last time. But this is a different Pakistan in other respects as well. General Pervez Mushharaf was the chief executive officer of Pakistan as well as the Chief of the Army Staff, but now the formal authority appears to be separate from the real one,” they said.
It’s Pakistan’s turn

India does not want to enter into a debate into the extradition of suspects and is not even keen on discussing the people it would want to be sent for trial because that would “trivialise the main issue.” Having given evidence in the past and having seen how Islamabad has dealt with Interpol’s previous red corner notices, New Delhi feels it is now Pakistan’s turn to prove its sincerity in rooting out terrorism. “The world also is waiting, otherwise there would be consequences,” the sources added.

Apart from the changed situation in Pakistan, investigators here have noticed a change in the Lashkar-e-Taiba’s operating behaviour. Although the LeT is Pakistan-based, created by the Inter-Services Intelligence and used in Jammu and Kashmir, its operations have now been detected in Sudan, Chechnya, Iraq and Afghanistan. There are also some reports of its plans to link up in South East Asia. “It is beginning to look like the Al-Qaeda,” the sources said.

India agrees that part of the purpose behind the attack was to get out of the war in the west with the Taliban. “It is possible that this could have been used to relieve pressure. One can’t prove these things but if you examine the way a section of Pakistan has reacted by creating a hysteria about air intrusions, hoax calls and military build up on the border — there is an obvious interest in trying to move away from the west. The more we see them reacting, the more it indicates either involvement or cover up,” they said.

“The conclusive part is how one section of Pakistan reacted. Who created the war hysteria? Who gave the civilian government of Pakistan a bad name? At the same time, it is important to see what Pakistan is capable of doing because some bits don’t want to go down the Jehadi-ISI road,” the sources added.

After the “unhappy experience” with the United Nations Security Council in the past, there is a “built-in resistance” to taking that approach again. “We didn’t go to the UNSC. There was a requirement for two years. We are not expecting other countries to do 100 per cent of what we like. They might do some of what we want but not all … ,” asserted the sources but conceded that the possibility of a compulsory reference to the International Court of Justice could be explored as a last resort.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Dec 2008 07:01

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/22m ... -enemy.htm

Another falsehood perpetuated by the eternally helpless breed of Indians is that a stable Pakistan is in India's interest. It is not, stable or otherwise. Pakistan is a failed State. It is on the brink of disintegration. It simply needs to be helped to remove itself and the map redrawn. Otherwise, the cost to India will keep increasing disproportionately.

# To take this war to the enemy, New Delhi needs a deliberate, graded and escalating response with a clear political and military objective to help Islamabad [Images] disintegrate: Snap diplomatic relations immediately.
# Declare Pakistan a terrorist State.
# Discontinue all trains and bus services as well as trade and business transactions.
# Announce renegotiations of the Indus Water Treaty as the terms unduly favour Pakistan.
# Begin a process to regulate the water supplies and build new mechanisms to activate water flow controls.
# Cancel permissions for over flights.
# Seal the Nepal and Bangladesh borders on a priority basis.
# Build a grand alliance of democracies by increasing their stakes in the burgeoning economic pie of India, to leverage their support against authoritarian regimes on our border including Pakistan.
# Increase immediately FDI in the defence sector from 26 percent to 49 percent. This will help India to emerge as the most modern technology driven defence industry hub in Asia while making it profitable for Western companies to invest

Instead of fighting at cross-purposes with Asia's largest media, harness its resources to conduct unprecedented psychological warfare. In times of war, the media is a weapon, a platform to be used intelligently to secure the national interests without attempting to hinder its freedom.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 23 Dec 2008 07:10

Arun_S wrote:New Delhi takes nuanced approach in dealing with Islamabad

Sandeep Dikshit

NEW DELHI: India has unveiled a nuanced approach in dealing with Pakistan after the Mumbai terror strikes. There is a feeling that the situation is different as compared to 2001-02 when tensions were high after the attack on Parliament. There is also an understanding of the new power structure in Pakistan which is evolving and under attack by other more established power centres.

New Delhi is clear that while international pressure is a force multiplier, other nations will not be able to help India fully realise its two objectives — prevent more such attacks and try the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks in Indian courts.

India is also keen on scotching speculation about a military strike being attributed to briefings by government officials. “No one in his right mind would go through this option or give the time frame which would only put everyone on notice,” said sources while denying that India ever resorted to coercive diplomacy. “This is a different situation from 2001-02. We have not recalled the High Commissioner or sent forces to the border as was the case last time. But this is a different Pakistan in other respects as well. General Pervez Mushharaf was the chief executive officer of Pakistan as well as the Chief of the Army Staff, but now the formal authority appears to be separate from the real one,” they said.
It’s Pakistan’s turn

India does not want to enter into a debate into the extradition of suspects and is not even keen on discussing the people it would want to be sent for trial because that would “trivialise the main issue.” Having given evidence in the past and having seen how Islamabad has dealt with Interpol’s previous red corner notices, New Delhi feels it is now Pakistan’s turn to prove its sincerity in rooting out terrorism. “The world also is waiting, otherwise there would be consequences,” the sources added.

Apart from the changed situation in Pakistan, investigators here have noticed a change in the Lashkar-e-Taiba’s operating behaviour. Although the LeT is Pakistan-based, created by the Inter-Services Intelligence and used in Jammu and Kashmir, its operations have now been detected in Sudan, Chechnya, Iraq and Afghanistan. There are also some reports of its plans to link up in South East Asia. “It is beginning to look like the Al-Qaeda,” the sources said.

India agrees that part of the purpose behind the attack was to get out of the war in the west with the Taliban. “It is possible that this could have been used to relieve pressure. One can’t prove these things but if you examine the way a section of Pakistan has reacted by creating a hysteria about air intrusions, hoax calls and military build up on the border — there is an obvious interest in trying to move away from the west. The more we see them reacting, the more it indicates either involvement or cover up,” they said.

“The conclusive part is how one section of Pakistan reacted. Who created the war hysteria? Who gave the civilian government of Pakistan a bad name? At the same time, it is important to see what Pakistan is capable of doing because some bits don’t want to go down the Jehadi-ISI road,” the sources added.

After the “unhappy experience” with the United Nations Security Council in the past, there is a “built-in resistance” to taking that approach again. “We didn’t go to the UNSC. There was a requirement for two years. We are not expecting other countries to do 100 per cent of what we like. They might do some of what we want but not all … ,” asserted the sources but conceded that the possibility of a compulsory reference to the International Court of Justice could be explored as a last resort.

I call bullshit. You want to fight on the western border. Join the afghans openly, and dissolve the durand line.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 23 Dec 2008 08:02

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/22m ... -hurts.htm

Quote-
British Prime Minister Gordon Brown visited Islamabad and gave 6 million pounds (about Rs 433 million) to Pakistan's government as a reward for the attacks on Mumbai, carried out by trained Pakistani militants. Not that Gordon Brown meant to encourage terrorism. Quite the contrary. The funds were given to Pakistan for counter-terrorism support

. But in the equation of action and consequence, the Pakistan army would be happy to cash in another six million pounds. Every bit helps. But it is time for Western governments to ask whether the strategy of doling out dollars and pounds for terror has delivered the goods.

Being the 'frontline State' in the war on terror has netted the Pakistan army over $10 billion (Rs 500,000 million) in military assistance from the United States

. The frontline of terror runs through the state of Pakistan -- for its army it has proven to be rich vein of gold. Most of the military assistance from the US has helped the Pakistan army arm itself to the teeth against its 'enemy State' India and helped tighten its dominant economic and coercive control over Pakistani civil society. Fighting terror is such a profitable business for the Pakistan army that one wonders what they would do if they actually caught the terrorists.

Instead, the Inter Services Intelligence, another arm of the Pakistan army, is busy eliminating evidence to maintain a very implausible deniability. A journalist from the respected Pakistani newspaper Dawn interviewed captured Mumbai attacker Ajmal Kasab's parents before a pall of secrecy descended on the town of Faridkot in Pakistani Punjab. Subsequent journalists noted the carpeting of the area by the ISI. Enough fear and awe was generated for Faridkot residents that subsequent visitors found their lips were securely sealed.

The evidence of Kasab's testimony, including the very existence of his parents, needed to be swiftly removed before too many other nosey journalists came calling. When the army's perpetual fig leaf, the need of India to provide more 'evidence', has become so tattered, every fibre is worth saving. Kasab's parents may well have been made to disappear yet, according to news reports, Hafiz Saeed, leader of the banned Jamat-ul-Dawah, is plainly visible outside his house despite his official 'house arrest.'

The more things change, the more they remain the same in Pakistan. A nudge and a wink, a few months of decreased visibility, and the terror apparatus will be back in business. The tactic of the carrot has not worked. Billions of dollars of US military aid has not led to a Pakistan that is any less an epicentre of terror than it was ten years ago.

Like a reliable cash machine, Gordon Brown went to Pakistan and coughed up some more money for terror. One wonders, what is the incentive for the Pakistan Army to change -- what it has done so far is clearly working well to keep it well-fed and well-polished.

Just as a thought experiment -- what if Gordon Brown had gone to announce that the International Monetary Fund is putting a stringent cap on defence spending in Pakistan? What if every terror attack having a link with Pakistan, caused the army's budget to be slashed and compensation handed to the attacked country? One suspects that the pro-active willingness of the army to take care of terror emanating from its soil would be greatly increased. After all, this is an institution that has shown it can protect its own interests fairly well.

The cost of terror must be raised. Not for ordinary Pakistani citizens. Not for its largely impotent civilian government that has become a diplomatic attache of the army. Not even for the terror camps and its brainwashed participants that emerge from and merge back into the Pakistani landscape. Wispy ghosts, these appear and disappear at the whims of the powers that be. But the cost must be raised for the Pakistan army, the singular institution that is responsible for the creation of the terror infrastructure and must be held responsible for its dismantling.

And there is no better way to raise this cost than to hit the army exactly where it actually bleeds -- from its pocket books. What the Pakistan army lacks is not resources but will. It needs a clarifying message that the support of terror will directly hit its interests rather than those of the over-burdened citizens of Pakistan or the forbearing citizens of India. Who will call the Pakistan army's bluff and free the citizens of Pakistan, along with the rest of the world, from its yoke? If Gordon Brown is not up for it, will Barack Obama show some spine?

Sankrant Sanu is an independent researcher and writer based in Seattle, USA.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2008 08:42

100 prithvis, 100 brahmos and 100 other special, sead-ing missiles must have acquired their coordinates now. we need to begin with a shock and awe before we nail sea route to pakis, and the yellow sea crossing should bring back jassoo's mithais back to delhi.

Div · Post by **Div** » 23 Dec 2008 09:15

JwalaMukhi wrote:http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/22m ... -enemy.htm
Another falsehood perpetuated by the eternally helpless breed of Indians is that a stable Pakistan is in India's interest. It is not, stable or otherwise. Pakistan is a failed State. It is on the brink of disintegration. It simply needs to be helped to remove itself and the map redrawn. Otherwise, the cost to India will keep increasing disproportionately.

# To take this war to the enemy, New Delhi needs a deliberate, graded and escalating response with a clear political and military objective to help Islamabad [Images] disintegrate: Snap diplomatic relations immediately.
# Declare Pakistan a terrorist State.
# Discontinue all trains and bus services as well as trade and business transactions.
# Announce renegotiations of the Indus Water Treaty as the terms unduly favour Pakistan.
# Begin a process to regulate the water supplies and build new mechanisms to activate water flow controls.
# Cancel permissions for over flights.
# Seal the Nepal and Bangladesh borders on a priority basis.
# Build a grand alliance of democracies by increasing their stakes in the burgeoning economic pie of India, to leverage their support against authoritarian regimes on our border including Pakistan.
# Increase immediately FDI in the defence sector from 26 percent to 49 percent. This will help India to emerge as the most modern technology driven defence industry hub in Asia while making it profitable for Western companies to invest

Instead of fighting at cross-purposes with Asia's largest media, harness its resources to conduct unprecedented psychological warfare. In times of war, the media is a weapon, a platform to be used intelligently to secure the national interests without attempting to hinder its freedom.

Someone's been reading BRF.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 23 Dec 2008 09:35

If India goes to war with pakistan now, these are the palusible scenarios.
1. The best is a stalemate. Nothing gained except massaging a bruised ego and jingoism.
2. In case of stalemate, pakistanis will call it victory, since India could not destroy the machinations of terrorist apparatus. The fifth column of India is already activated listen to Abdul Rahman Antulay, Brinda Karat, Prakash Karat, AB Bardhan and all the illegal pakis who have disappeared in India during the WKK bhai chara BS. These hidden elements can wreak havoc on supply lines causing absolutely dangerous situation for Indian Military.
3. Worst Possible Scenario--Pakistan actually wins this war. You can kiss Kashmir good bye, balkanization of India begins in earnest.

In any situation it is not the fault of Indian Military but politicians who have been pussy footing all these years and now they want to prove their machoism all the while Military is in tatters. These politcians would not agree to equal pay package for these soldiers and now agreeing to military demands because they need them to prove their "Mardangi". Up until few months ago, Indian Military commanders were in cahoots with fuel supply dealers stealing disesel fuel for extra income all the time water was transported in fuel tankers. There is no war reserve of fuel stock to fight this war. There is no ammunition stock to fight this war. Where are Phalcons to neutralize the threat of PAF? We don't even have enough clothing for our troops to fight in cold weather. We are asking USA to expedite CBU kits and we as a nation think Unkil will oblige us with enough quantity for strikes, where is the gurantee that these bombs will work in war time. Why would unkil give this opportunity to India such that it will give an excuse for pakis to move their troops from Afghan border and leave American supplies even more vulnerable than they are now. This brings two questions...
1. Maybe Unkils wants Paki Military moved out of there such that they will have a free run to bomb NWFP to ruins. Cut paki to pieces and settle Afghan war once for all.
2. Let there be a long war between these two nations and when they are finally so weak they will accept their NPT demands, Unkil and her children will spank us into submission and sign away whatever dignity we have left. Unkil will have bases in India and Pak, peace will last forever. Unkil will share the spoils with china by giving them Arunachal, Tibet, Sikkim.

What a nation we are, we must prove our Machoism aka Mardangi even if we don't have enough clothing to cover our peanuts.
JMT.......

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Dec 2008 09:47

Baljeet:

Even a rabid Paki couldn't have made their case better. So what are you suggesting? That India just accept Mumbai attack as another one of those that can be swept under the rug?

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 23 Dec 2008 09:49

GIVE PEACE A CHANCE..

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 23 Dec 2008 10:23

Singha wrote: beards and civilians are all mixed up. faujis are the only clearly identifiable elements with PN followed by PA being the clear and easy whipping boys.

civilians will have to take their chances and move in concert with police
to control the beards - stuff them both, civilians are all busy donating
in zakat boxes setup by terrorists in the markets.

more the internal bloodletting the better for the world.

I am willing to walk around blr 10 times with a placard saying "10 janpath zindabad" if they authorize finally going in and doing some
serious damage. I am willing to live on a diet of rice, dal and potatoes
for 5 yrs likewise if need be. no milk, no meat, no fish, no eggs.

I want revenge.

Very moving post indeed. My feelings will be assuaged only after we have atleast tactically nuked RYK. We need to get that missile defence and the beam weapon fast tracked. Hope we will soon be in a position to destroy PA. The PA does not deserve anything less than the big one. I live in hope. Meanwhile, I will accept the break up of Pakistan as the first installment.

--hanumadu

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 23 Dec 2008 10:31

CRamS wrote:Baljeet:

Even a rabid Paki couldn't have made their case better. So what are you suggesting? That India just accept Mumbai attack as another one of those that can be swept under the rug?

CRamS
Under current military strength analysis that does not take into account the Jingoism, BS media statement of Generals, Hijda Mardangi of our politicians---there is nothing much we as a nation can do but live and learn from it, move on with a plan to avenge not just Mumbai attack but all terrorist attacks that had been carried out against Indians by Pakis, Bangladeshis, naxalites, communists.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 23 Dec 2008 10:33

narayanan wrote:GIVE PEACE A CHANCE..

makes a good read.

to those getting their hopes up, nothing will happen^. calm down and watch cricket.

^ unless the fizzleyah decide to produce some more tactical brilliance out of their rolling pork barrels.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Dec 2008 10:39

Baljeet wrote:
CRamS wrote:Baljeet:

Even a rabid Paki couldn't have made their case better. So what are you suggesting? That India just accept Mumbai attack as another one of those that can be swept under the rug?
CRamS
Under current military strength analysis that does not take into account the Jingoism, BS media statement of Generals, Hijda Mardangi of our politicians---there is nothing much we as a nation can do but live and learn from it, move on with a plan to avenge not just Mumbai attack but all terrorist attacks that had been carried out against Indians by Pakis, Bangladeshis, naxalites, communists.

How do you know better? One does need to fight the war on TSP's terms. If India lets this one pass withput making TSP pay a price, all the doomsday scenarios you presented will kick in. I think Pakis must be dealt a few heft blows, even if it is expensive for India.

True to TSP form, I just saw eye-ass amir on TimesNow declaring with impunity that the pig's letter confirming that he is Paki iis not 'proof' enough. This kind of chutzpah needs to be dealt a hefty blow as I said above. Or else, the next time TSP will score an even bigger and mightier hit.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Dec 2008 10:43

narayanan wrote:GIVE PEACE A CHANCE..

Saar, whatever differences I have had with you, you are indeed a scholar par excellence and a genius. Very authoritative publication that can't be matched. I hope ebough Indian elites read this and stop sucking up to ******** like Uneven Cohen.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Dec 2008 10:49

So what is CBU-105? And how does fast tracking help now. I think it will be on slow track. One doesnt go shopping for weapons and put war on hold. You fight with what you got. havent heard of more asinine proposal. Its not like a standard pataka you get and throw.

Manas · Post by **Manas** » 23 Dec 2008 10:50

narayanan wrote:GIVE PEACE A CHANCE..

A master piece. True NETA of N^3 RAT quality. Thank you.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2008 10:53

ramana, its media psyops.

we already have ample cluster munitions though not of the WCMD variety.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Dec 2008 10:57

Singha wrote:ramana, its media psyops.

we already have ample cluster munitions though not of the WCMD variety.

I hope so. In kargil time some one complained about the DRDO not being able to reverse engineer the JP-233 bomb from the Brits. It might still be in the archives.

BTW to me its a letdown to go begging for CBU when India just refused to sign the cluster bomb treaty as if they had their own when all along when push comes to shove DRDO suggests they rush import the stuff. Is that credible to go to market for weapons while threatening the local goonda?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 23 Dec 2008 11:00

narayanan wrote:GIVE PEACE A CHANCE..

Bism-illah! Kya baat hai.
Request permission to distribute this freely?

Manas · Post by **Manas** » 23 Dec 2008 11:19

ramana wrote:So what is CBU-105? And how does fast tracking help now. I think it will be on slow track. One doesnt go shopping for weapons and put war on hold. You fight with what you got. havent heard of more asinine proposal. Its not like a standard pataka you get and throw.

GOI is busy doing a pump fake hoping TSP will cower and give up a few of the dirty twenty. If so, GOI will declare victory and go into elections to try and secure 5 more years. This is Indian electoral politics at its worst.

TSP will not fall in line. Time and again they have proven that they will fight to safe guard H & D to score tactical victories than demonstrate a genuine change of heart & long term reapproachment. I am convinced that this will be another Parakram type buildup followed by a standdown minus the land forces mobilization. TSP in its current geographical and political framework cannot and will not co-exist peacefully with India. The society is too radicalized and is in complete denial. It needs to be denuked (under U.N. auspices) and its military intelligence terror complex destroyed systematically.
This will be India's dirty job to do either by covert (spread over many years) or overt (one brutal violent war) means. Both options are messy and Indian blood will be shed in both wars but TSP goes scot free if it is allowed to carry on with its current war of thousand cuts.

Of the 3 A's holding sway over TSP - America's influence is waning. The U.S. will instinctively resort to awarding some carrots (a few billion $'s of weapon systems) to desperately garner and sustain some leverage. In the long run this is counter productive to India's interests. Let us not forget that almost every successive head of ISI over the last decade has been appointed after tacit U.S. approval but the U.S. has been able to achieve very little to secure its own interests in Afghanistan (leave alone India's). There are limits to what the U.S. can do for India.

The TSP generals are first and foremost worried about self preservation and I will bet will not go nuclear. As expensive as it is going to be, India will be forced to cross the rubicon either now or after the next terror attack or the next or the one after. It is not a question of if, it is a question of when. The longer the delay the more expensive it gets.

India has to put the U.S. and especially China on notice that it is a 3 way street.

1) India will cross the rubicon.
2) If TSP gambles and nukes India and tries to take India down with it, India will take China down as China's reckless proliferation in direct contravention of its NPT obligations has resulted in terrorists overtly gaining access to nuclear weapons.

India is barking up the wrong tree to solve the TSP problem. GOI should look northeast instead of west. Expand the canvas, this is a India, China and TSP problem NOT a Kashmir problem. Make the comrades in Beijing pay some economic price and things will start falling in line.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 23 Dec 2008 11:32

Shreeman wrote:to those getting their hopes up, nothing will happen^. calm down and watch cricket.
^ unless the fizzleyah decide to produce some more tactical brilliance out of their rolling pork barrels.

No,
Pakis are finished economically. They are going to be irrelevant within 3 years. It will happen whether or not Indians do it.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 23 Dec 2008 11:46

ramana wrote:So what is CBU-105? And how does fast tracking help now. I think it will be on slow track. One doesnt go shopping for weapons and put war on hold. You fight with what you got. havent heard of more asinine proposal. Its not like a standard pataka you get and throw.

Ramana

CBU-105 is not just a cluster bomb, its a 'smart' cluster bomb. It releases about 40 smart top attack submunitions that cover a fairly large area and can take out tanks/armoured vehicles using a heat warhead on their less armoured tops. In theory, an aircraft does a single pass over an armoured column and drops two of these and takes out 50% of the tanks/apcs.

But why is the Indian govt. asking for these weapons to be fast tracked? Are they anticipating a land attack by the tactically brilliant commandos?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Dec 2008 12:02

suddepJ, its precisely that kind of weapon that was being worked on by DRDO and nothing has turned up. Before buying it those DRDO guys should be shot. they give optimistic press reports and when tested noting works and everyone bashes the forces for being too strict.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 23 Dec 2008 12:04

ramana wrote:So what is CBU-105? And how does fast tracking help now. I think it will be on slow track. One doesnt go shopping for weapons and put war on hold. You fight with what you got. havent heard of more asinine proposal. Its not like a standard pataka you get and throw.

ramana,
The order was placed before the attacks, as you stated may be they are asking to fast track.

http://www.asd-network.com/press_detail ... eapons.htm

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 23 Dec 2008 12:12

CRamS wrote:
Baljeet wrote: CRamS
Under current military strength analysis that does not take into account the Jingoism, BS media statement of Generals, Hijda Mardangi of our politicians---there is nothing much we as a nation can do but live and learn from it, move on with a plan to avenge not just Mumbai attack but all terrorist attacks that had been carried out against Indians by Pakis, Bangladeshis, naxalites, communists.
How do you know better? One does need to fight the war on TSP's terms. If India lets this one pass withput making TSP pay a price, all the doomsday scenarios you presented will kick in. I think Pakis must be dealt a few heft blows, even if it is expensive for India.

True to TSP form, I just saw eye-ass amir on TimesNow declaring with impunity that the pig's letter confirming that he is Paki iis not 'proof' enough. This kind of chutzpah needs to be dealt a hefty blow as I said above. Or else, the next time TSP will score an even bigger and mightier hit.

Baljeet,

We spend $20+billion on our armed forces each year which is more than entire pakistani national budget in some years. We have only twice as many men for five x budget and similar men power cost. Their armed forces, weapons, stores and stocks are no mach for Indian armed forces.

At this moment it’s not a question of how much or what we would achieve by taking punitive actions but how much and what we would loose by not taking any military action again after so much provocation. We must make sure that if India is ever attacked there will be escalation and consequences for GoP and its armed forces. That fear and uncertainty should be instilled in their mind.

What is the point of having such large armed forces and expenses if all we ever do is mount diplomatic offensives. If that is all we want to do than in that case we should divert a large chunk of defense budget for creating an army of highly trained diplomats and lobbyists to get some where.

If this hoopla again ends up with no real action we would further loose our credibility in minds of terrorists. We must have faith in our armed forces and their ability to deliver the goods as required by the Indian PM, his cabinet and parliament.

Give GoP the file that UN accepted as good enough evidence to ban JuD. Set a four week timeline for Pakistani govt
After 4 weeks India should deploy its navy to put a selective, loose but sustained economic blockade of Pakistan
Punitive airstrikes on all major ISI assets including the personal assets of all the serving ISI top officers and the retd ones like Hamid Gul
JuD headquarter, Hafeez, Azhar and other pig’s houses in Punjab and AJK should be bombed
Short but intense air force attacks on large known arms depot, airbases and naval dock yards
Publicly announce there would be massive blowback for every Pakistani reaction/provocation. Tell ‘em we don’t want culprits of Mumbai or any attacks neither do we want Dawood or Azhar or anyother pigs. Keep ‘em for yourself. We'll hold the nation of Pakistan accountable for these acts of war/terrorisms not any individual or group.

Pakistanis are the biggest cowards, those ******** can only brainwash their teens and send them to die. If there own life, property and pleasures are put on stake they would sell their H&D for few bones. Its politicians and generals have billions of dollars stashed away in western banks and real estates. They would never do anything to endanger (think about nukes etc)their hard earned loot.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 23 Dec 2008 12:15

Friends,
Wiki says India has produced cluster bombs.Have we indeed?

Do we need to import this to use against TSP of all?
I must admit I couldn't find any info of Indian cluster bombs, though. Google doesn't help.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Dec 2008 12:54

ramana wrote:suddepJ, its precisely that kind of weapon that was being worked on by DRDO and nothing has turned up. Before buying it those DRDO guys should be shot. they give optimistic press reports and when tested noting works and everyone bashes the forces for being too strict.

when ?
I remember only a very vaguely worded report within the last year. that is hardly enough time.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 23 Dec 2008 12:57

Security upgrade? 90% of budget yet to be spent

New Delhi: Behind the glaring images of police and security personnel armed with outdated weapons and equipped with hardly any preventive gear is an inexplicable reality of unused finances surrendered each year by the Home Ministry.

Of the Rs 715.25 crore marked for the police under plan expenditure this year—that would largely include fresh purchases likes weapons and equipment—police organisations under the Home Ministry have only spent Rs 76.9 crore until November, a mere 10.7 per cent.

The elite National Security Guards, for instance, has just spent over Rs 4 crore of about Rs 15 core that was set aside for capital expenditure in its budget. Last year, of about Rs 9 crore meant for machinery and equipment, the NSG returned over Rs 3 crore. This was the reason it gave: “non-finalisation” of procurement process for bullet-proof jackets, holographic reflex sights and some other hi-tech communication equipment.

Similarly, the Intelligence Bureau was allocated about Rs 50 crore for capital expenditure this year. Till November, it had spent only Rs 9.8 crore.

The worst, incidentally, is the National Technical Research Organisation, the apex technical intelligence body set up on the recommendation of the Kargil Review Committee. It has Rs 2,420 crore marked for capital expenditure this year, which includes massive technological upgrade and construction of a new building. Until November, it had spent just about Rs 195 crore. Last year too, NTRO got Rs 1,850 crore, of which it surrendered Rs 1,414 crore saying it could not finalise purchase of communication equipment.

In the context of coastal security that has come under focus after the Mumbai attacks, a little over Rs 130 crore was allocated in 2007-08 for capital expenditure under three specific schemes — Coastal Security Scheme (CSS), Joint Coastal Patrolling under Operation Swan in Maharashtra and Gujarat, and scheme for hi-tech surveillance on international borders. Of this, Rs 69.9 crore was surrendered or could not be spent.

As for hi-tech surveillance, the MHA said the money was not spent because of delay in “tendering process”. In all, under capital expenditures last year, the Home Ministry surrendered about Rs 1,788 crore of some Rs 4,611 crore allocated for this purpose.

The BSF said it could not procure fast attack crafts because Goa Shipyard Ltd could not provide a proper “cost break-up” and other related documents.

• The CRPF said it could not finalise purchase of over 18,000 AK-47s and 10,000 assault rifles due to “non-materialisation of supplies” from the Ordnance Factory Board.

• Delhi Police had set aside Rs 20 crore for “induction of latest technology” into the force, but surrendered the entire amount citing “non-finalisation of proposals”.

• The CISF returned Rs 195 crore meant for X-Ray baggage inspection system because a certificate from the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board was not submitted.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 23 Dec 2008 13:05

narayanan wrote:GIVE PEACE A CHANCE..

Wonderful! and Simply amaGing..

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 23 Dec 2008 13:09

Bism-illah! Kya baat hai.
Request permission to distribute this freely?

Of course, especially in Rawalpindi.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Dec 2008 13:31

and 10 Janpath

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 23 Dec 2008 14:45

Manas wrote: 2) If TSP gambles and nukes India and tries to take India down with it, India will take China down as China's reckless proliferation in direct contravention of its NPT obligations has resulted in terrorists overtly gaining access to nuclear weapons.

India is barking up the wrong tree to solve the TSP problem. GOI should look northeast instead of west. Expand the canvas, this is a India, China and TSP problem NOT a Kashmir problem. Make the comrades in Beijing pay some economic price and things will start falling in line.

I quite agree with that, the idea of threatening China that if their dog takes us down with it, then they, too, can kiss goodbye to Shanghai, Beijing & a host of their big cities. China, for all their macho-ism, shiver at the thought of a nuclear warhead undoing what they have been doing for the last 25 or so years. If even one nuclear warhead explodes over say, Beijing or Shanghai, they can kiss their dream of standing up to the US goodbye. We're in the same position wrt China as Pakistan wrt to us.

If Pakistan says "we have nothing to lose, but we'll take you down with us", we say the same to Beijing. Pakistan loses nothing, but India & China will have to kiss their superpower dreams goodbye - exactly the scenario China will hate to be in.

Ofcourse, there might also be a negative in the form of Chinese military intervention against India, but I believe with some hard talking, India might pull it off, causing the Chinkis to tighten their leash on their pet dog.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2008 15:16

narayanan, great job!! wanna check some typos, billed<-bilked

and nice qualifiers like "terrorist pakistani military dictatorship..."

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 23 Dec 2008 16:42

My apologies if my post derail the continuity

My suggestions to Response to Terrorism -

First there should be a fear in the minds of those who are supporters of terrorists. For examples those who helped in organising a trip for these pakistan terrorists to come, stay and study the structures of the hotel and so on.

Secondly there should also be a fear in the mind of Pakstani Army, ISI and others who openly support these terrorism in the name of liberating Kashmir. They know that they even get sympathies from China and others in this regard. For me usually before attacking the West in a large scale the terrorists often try at a small scale in India or nearby. For example before sept 11 they hijacked an Indian Plane to Kandhakar and then they repeated such things in US. Now they have rehearsed well in Mumbai through sea. It is time for the West to expect the next major attack on their coasts. West cannot play two games here. On the one hand it is ok with Pakistan to hide and indirectly or directly support terrorists in the case of India and other countries and then try to stop them when they try to attack West. it is impossible to keep this dialectical approach. Kashmir issue can be addressed through dialogue and democracy only. Terrorism has to be uprooted clearly in its base. Even for those who are trying to promote a positive image of Islam and Hinduism it becomes very very difficult when the terrorists strike in this way. It is essential that a nation that supports the terror openly is kept in its knees.

India has to give a fear in the mind of Pakistani's who tend to sympathesize, support and allow terrorists in their place. India needs her muslims to fight a war against pakistan. India has second largest Islamic population in the world. India has to have a big army of Muslims to fight for their country against Pakistani terror. If Muslims in India want to save their children, their own properties against such terrorists attacks and outfits, it is time for them to fight against Pakistanis terrorists.

India should make it clear that we are not fighting against Pakistan. We are only fighting the terrorists. If Pakistan is not able to fight their own terrorists, we are only helping by attacking them from the air. For this US and other countries have to join in.

The government of India has to have a counter political theology to the Islamic political theology which is well spread in the minds of considerable Muslims in Pakistan and also in India. India provides all the facilities to Muslims like any other Islamic country. Fighting against Pakistani terrorists is not fighting against Islamic country rather fighting against the terror, jihad against those who try to destroy islam and make Muslims' lives terrifying everywhere. Terrorists never understand how muslims are suffering because of their activities.

Indian government has to develop some Islamic universities (MAdraasas) where mullas will be trained in pluralistic context and anti-terrorist way. It is also essential whenever the threats are made by movements, destroy those movements altogether rather than being afraid of them. It should be made clear to any communities that they cannot be a threat to any individual or any other communities.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Dec 2008 17:16

Guys,take Narayanan seriously.Do give Peace a chance first.No,I'm not being flippant.As I've said before,"Revenge is a dish best eaten cold".So how do we give "Peace a chance" while keeping all our options open? Let's take a dispassionate view of the situ.

Pak today has clawed itself back from decades of military rule,years of great mischief,especially under Ge,Bandicoot Musharrat.Finally,the Lawyers movement brought about a revolution on the streets of Pak and the military under Musharrat was in total retreat,forced to conduct elections,where his puppet party was defeated.But he struck back immediately by executing Benazir's assassination-by default,using the very same shadowy terror figures that struck on 26/11.These shadowy figures have been the pointed sword of the Paki military machine of the last two decades.easily sent into diabolic action and just as easily deniable,today as "non-state actors".Therefore,we must acknowledge the attempts being made in Pak by those opposed to the military and give them support from outside too,without making them look like Indian stooges.We could get our friends to praise them and support them covertly.

So who rules the state?We know that true power is in the hands of the military.Howevever,war fever will help perpetuate the role of the Paki military and resurrect it from a state of disgrace through rabid calls of hate against India from the street.Therefore,the attack against pak should be squarely aimed at the uniformed tribe of terrorists under the leadership of Gen.Arsefu*k Killany and his ISI.

1.Our first action should be a massive diplomatic offensive.This has been set into motion.Inform and educate the world community about the perfidy of the Paki military.Pakistan must be decared as "Rogue State" by the UN.Pakistani military men especially must be declared "passport paraiahs",liable to be picked up by Interpol,etc.if they travel abroad.We should give a massive list to Interpol and the international community all those in pak who are involved with terror,including Musharrat,etc.Pak citizens living abroad propagating Islamist ideology should be arrested or deported back to their native land,especially those in the UK,as even Gordon brown says that 75% of all terror in Britain has its origins in Pak.He should put into action his mouthings on the subject,not giving Pak more money ! Limited diplomatic action by India first,with finally after no results forthcoming,diplomatic ties being severed.

2.Demand military sanctions,if not economic as well.Nations that are supporting/selling weaponry to Pak should be on India's shortlist/blacklist.Germany for passing the sale of U-214 subs,Sweden for AEW aircraft,Brazil for anti-radar missiles,etc.The US in particular should be warned that Indo-US military cooperation will cease if it supplies Pak with F-16s and assorted military hardware.It now HAS to choose betwen India or Pak. "Cuntries" that still support pak should face diplomatic ostracism by india.We should expel their ambassadors and declare the govts. of those countries as supporters of terror.We should lobby the opposition parties to demand a change in foreign policy of such states.This can be done very well in Europe where the Green parties are pro-active and demonstrate on every issue.

3.Covert Operations.Identify those individuals and targets who are responsible for such terror aganist India and use covert ops. to prosecute and eliminate those involved.We should adopt the tactic of the Israelis.No one will care a fig if Gen.Hamid Gul "explodes" in public .A massive counter-terror strategy of covert ops right across pakistan should be planned.Striking at military targets,bridges,troop trains,key military bases and establishments.Pak struck at Bangalore IISc.So should we too.We should also strike across borders anywhere in the world.Assassinate Paki diplomats .and others well known to be involved in such terror.Hit at elements of the Porki media that are rabidly anti-Indian.Rub out their key correspondents.In fact,conduct a war by any other means instead of conventional fashion.This is what Pak has been doing to us and we should return the compliment.
In doing this one will ensure that the Paki political classes are untouched! The Paki military/ISI are already under deep suspicion for Benazir's assassination and others and no one will believe that India wants to knock off their leaders,even if the paki army tries to besmirch India's reputation by doing just that.Praise Paki political leaders at interational fora for their attempts to rein in terror-"being sabotaged by the Paki army" .Try and drive the wedge between them that already exists even wider.

4.Economic warfare.Counterfeit Pak's currency.Use cyberwarfare to attack pak's establishments like the stock exchange,etc. at selected times,especially when there is local turmoil,a regular feature thanks,to the legions of ungodly species who have some grouse or the other against the neighbours in Pak.Lobby stoppage of economic aid to Pak from the western nations by showing them how such aid is being misused.Reward those countries with huge govt. contracts that support India in this endeavour,while cutting out those nations that do not play ball.Lobby corporate India to boycott high-value products like Mercs,etc. from Germany if it does not stop military supplies to Pak.In all economic fora,use every opportunity to damage Pak's "good name" (Ha!ha!) and demand Pak be taught an economic lesson.Warn the global community that unless they do,war is inevitable that will also engulf them one day.

5.Promote cultural ties! Show the world that we are not against the Paki people,but their military men.Lobby foreign govts. to support their poltiicos against the military.Democracy vs dictatorship.Sporting ties abroad only.This might sound anachronistic,but it will pay in the long end,when we can show the world that we tried everything before hitting Pak militarily.

6.The military option.First,seize opportunites that present itself at eliminating terror masterminds.The US's use of UCAVs/drones in the FATA should be emulated.It takes time and effort to wage a war.The planning and logistics are massive.we should not go to war unprepared.Sam Manekshaw and Indira Gandhi showed us the way in '71.We need to urgently beef up our war supplies and increase our striking capability with massivenew inductions of weaponry and assorted equipment.

7.Revamp out intel outfits thoroughly.Appoint professisonals who suit the tasks in each outfit..This is the key to any military success.Forewarned is forearmed.It is a tough task,but it has to be done.The current state of affairs is scandalous.

There is an opportunity here for for Sonia Gandhi,like Catherine the Great,a foreigner in Russia,to rise to great heights by using her intelligence,wisdom and guile in defeating our worst enemy.She only has few months more though with elections round the corner.Thus,Peace can be first given a chance,failing which we will have to seek other unpleasant (for Pak) options.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 23 Dec 2008 17:35

Philip, I agree with everything you said but for the last point. Sonia Gandhi is one of the most worthless leaders ever in India, it's a disgrace she's running the country.

Back to what you said, I agree that India can overwhelm Pakistan without firing a single bullet. We're an IT superpower for christ's sake! Hack into their defence networks, stock exchange & government websites, we can do this easily. Maintain a IT warfare force to tackle China & attack Pakistan. Let RAW make Pakistan their playground, pump millions to create RAW networks inside Pakistan, assasinate any threats to India, Israeli style.

Most important, the GoI _must_ declare that we would have absolutely NO military relationship with ANY country that sells even a bullet to Pakistan, and that selling any military equipment to Pakistan will be considered an indirect act of war. Then, I'll love to see how Germany,
France, Brazil & even the US sells to them Pigs.

In addition to that, scrap Indus water treaty, snap diplomatic relationship, seal the border, ****** the Bus & the Train, make sure not even a Pakistan bird enters India, leave alone a whole pig. Infuse massive funds into Afghanistan, maintain close relations with the Afghan military establishment & their government, if possible, maintain military presence in Afghanistan.

We can bring Piggistan to their knees without firing a single bullet, only if our leaders show some balls.