Indian Response to Terrorism

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Vikram_S
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

vivek k wrote:How did that help? Should JS have gone with Masood Azhar i.e. to personlly deliver him to the Talban? That was even worse than the Rubaiya incident.
so, if he hadnt gone people like you would have been first in line saying he was a coward and sent soldier into harm way without going himself. JS went with NSG team inside to a possible combat scenario. at least he put his money where his mouth was unlike mumble mumble singh and his followers
i care two hoot about jaswant singh but fellow showed more spine than current leadership


Vikram you've put up a spirited defence of your political beliefs my friend.
what bakwaas
i have asked for national security to be treated as non negotable by all political parties concerned. it is your problem that your favourite UPA does not do so because of which you defend UPA like broken record each time attack occurs by diverting attention to corruption, all politicians and what not. at least show some spine now. instead of defending such scum.
I can put up a volley too. But, that does not help the people of India who are insecure while these politicians and their families stay safe. ALL POLITICIANS have huge swiss accounts. So do not waste your patriotism on them. We must demand that they provide the citizens the same security that they have. Drop your filters and see these scum (UPA/NDA/...) for what they are. Running around in cars full of security personnel. Does anyone remember the security personnel that gave their lives for these scum during the attack on the Parliament. Why did the security personnel give their lives for these scum. They should have let them die at the hands of the terrorists. Maybe that would have opened the eyes of the politicians to the reality that ordinary people face going to the train stations or bus stops.
correction. the buck stops with the present GOVT. that is UPA. if it was NDA buck would have stopped with THEM. UPA has not defended India they need a kick up their backside
if you dont like that, i am sorry but i dont care about your love for the congress!!
trying to divert the issue will NOT work on me

Now you're getting lost. So one is more patriotic if he stays in India? Also, I would request Admins to please note the language being used. If it is permissible, I rest my case.
if you are telling indians in india suffering monthly attacks to be patriotic and be proud of india go get your arrogance level checked. after each attack this is your standard useless prescription if someone expresses anger against useless MMS and shivraj patil.

you have no business telling victims to be patriotic and proud when they deserve to hold the present Govt in contempt and spit upon those who will not defend them.

if you want to put your money where your mouth is come back to india and be on the same level and then talk of patriotism and pride instead of preaching lesson sitting in another country which is far safer than india.

patriotism and pride are hollow word if nation does not fulfill its oath to citizens and by nation i mean the idiotic elected leadership whom you always make excuse for no matter how many attacks occur.

and my language is evoked by your arrogance in telling people about "dithering" and stuff about patriotism and pride. all these tactics will not work anymore to subside public disgust
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

Nihat wrote:
The blunder was allowing the aircraft to go to Kandahar, not the release of the terrorists, which, let's be honest, was inevitable once the plane landed in Afghanistan.
That is the crux of it , if we would have blocked the aircraft in India and stormed it - perhaps a few more innocent lives would have been lost but Masood Azhar would still have been in Jail and would not have managed to stage so many terror attacks which ultimatly led to innocent deaths in far greater numbers.

It was a painful lesson for an inexperienced GoI
correct!

that was the actual issue instead of being stuck on irrelevant issue about JS going to kandahar and other useless issue. the basic problem there was that crisis management committee flopped allowing for hijackers to get fuel in place and run to middle east then to afghanistan

and about inexperience i now believe NDA is more experience than UPA because it retains a core of experienced parliamentarian and grassroot politicians who at least do not have to toe to some dynasty line.
congress has to remove the dynasty to reinvent itself.

madam maino in order to make sure her dynasty remains has gutted Congress of all nationalist strong willed politicians. those who remain are bend all over place puppets without fire in the belly or strong convictions. only handful like pranabda are not enough when surrounded by arjun singh, shivraj patil and other worthy

hence this problem.

in earlier PVNR era congress had many strong will type who would take the fight to pakistan already and led by decisive leader like PVNR who was very shrewd person.

instead this present govt scrapped pota, did not replace with better law, did nothing to address gujarat concern about vulnerable coast, has deliberately played politic with every non UPA state, and has hit defence modernisation

this all shows the lack of experience and bipartisan culture which PVNR type maharathi had and also it shows lack of understanding of national power and security because current sycophants infesting the congress party are only concerned about kingship and kinship not leadership.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

Arun_S wrote:
John Snow wrote:MMS is a very unique person as he brings respect to idiots!

Why so ?

When MMS sqeeks (aka) speaks
It is neither comforting nor commanding, at the same time when he promises stern action against the enemy, He evokes termors of laughter, people are said to die laughing.
I am one of the survivors who almost died from laughing while listening to the feminine Sardar :rotfl:
to make the terrorists even more afraid, he had a bust of Gandhi in the background. i am sure Laskar people had heart attack from fear on seeing his speech.

when jamaat guys are distributing sweets in pak, our honorable PM came on TV and squeaked about resilience

why does not he give up his SPG cover (along with rest of leadership) and then talks of resilience

least he could have done as PM is to reauthorise covert action against pak, but instead this worthy person proposed (among many other such crazy stuff)

-siachen peace park
- pak is victim of terror, joint mechanism to explore
- peace talks will go on (till recent outrage)

how many indians have had to die till this shameless PM realised reality?
has he been elected to win nobel peace prize or to defend indian citizen?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ManishC »

^^^
He has been Selected to keep the seat warm for the Yuvaraj. By being suitably effiminate MMS is making sure the PM in waiting will have an easier time establishing his National Security credentials.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by brihaspati »

26/11 has revealed many things about India that we were content to obscure from ourselves but must now face frontally and do something about. First, we have to acknowledge openly that serving the Indian public could not be further from the minds of our political class. The statements made by satraps in every party after 26/11, prove that beyond reasonable doubt. Should they be taken at face value? Yes. Can they all be cases of misspeaking? They reflect a visceral contempt for us who are obviously seen as lumpen morons. We vote these sad excuses into office (despite their ignorance, malfeasance, self-enrichment and criminality) time after time. Thus we establish that we do not care for ourselves or how we are represented. They seem themselves as our masters (netas) rather than our servants (naukars). We collude in perpetuating that ridiculous notion; thus giving our democracy a particularly nasty twist.
What "turiananda" state the author was in previously ? That only on 26/11 we were faced with facing this frontally? When were politicians in Republican India our "servants"? In my teens I have met eye-witnesses in Calcutta who described how a certain Ahimsa Congress CM of the state in the 50's went out surveying the bloodied and mangled remains of poor village women lathicharged (under his explcit orders) to death who had come protesting lack of rice/corruption by rural distributiors and hoarders who almost inevitably happened to be Congress supporters (I have found real cases that most of the time these enthusiastic Cong supporters after Independence were British collaborators who had helped in repression of the "freedom fighters" - there are very natural political explanations for this, but this is not rlevenat here) - my interviewee broke down in tears saying that this experience turned his whole family from a strong Cong supporter into anti-Cong. I know of many more similar stories from eye-witnesses/case studies from the South. The Cong leadership used Gandhi's mass mobilization to obtain the machinery of colonial state power - they had no interest as a "class" to be "servants" of the "commons" - they remained and strongly retained all their interest networks which simply took advantage of a change of regime members (and not the regime character) to better control the exploitation of the nation's resources.
Second, what comes across most clearly from 26/11, is how disconnected our political class is from us. It is apparent that, apart from undertaking the tedious task of seducing and bribing us at election time, our political class (with the exceptions being counted on two hands) exists to serve itself: i.e. to enrich, empower, indulge, protect and insulate itself from us; using the resources we provide but they command as their own. Our Treasury has become their piggy-bank. Our forces of law-and-order have become their vassals and servants used to serve their personal needs and political ends not ours. Our bureaucracy (endowed with some truly exceptional people who are badly used and abused) has become their machinery for their own political gain than for advancing our national interest.
No, the disconnection was apparent from even before Independence. The political class was always disconnected - it remained elite. One just has to look at the face of Cong leadership as it shaped up after Gandhi's alliance formed up with the Nehrus. Ironically perhaps it was influenced by the "epics" - it was a "Gujarati Krishna" tying up with "immigrants from the North" "Uttar Pardeshi Kuru clan" to achieve his version of the dream of "Bharata". The family based leadership was encouraged by the British as their tactical local "potentate" specifically for their "elite disjunction" from the commons - leading to continuing colonial dependence of this potentate for surviving in political power. This is a long tradition in northern India - many kings and princes had followed a similar policy faced with Islamic invasions or overlordship - they used this "disjunction" to curry invaders' support against domestic rivals and used this support itself as a leverage factor to gain support of the commons. This culture retained former British bootlickers who had actively collaborated in the repression of freedom-fighters in the administration and state machinery including security services. That the Left was no exception and their leadership comes from the same elite disjunct - is also proved by similar behaviour when they came to power in the states. The using of this people-maintained/paid people-repressing state machinery is simply a continuance of the older pre-colonial social structure refined excruciatingly by the British, and enthussiastically carried on as habitual practice by this elite.
Third, state-provided security of political megalomaniacs has become more important than the security provided to protect our lives. And, despite this tragedy, political goons at every level of government -- including those who go out of their way to destabilise our societies, divide and fracture us by accentuating ethnicity, caste and language, and open themselves to retaliation -- are surrounded by policemen putting themselves out of real harm's way. When will this absurdity cease? How many more of us have to die before things change? What will it take to dismantle the perverse, ridiculous, VVIP culture that disempowers us all?
Do they invite retaliation for destabilizing our society? Wrong, they invite retaliation from within their own class of competing rival forces of the same colour - groups which do not differ from the target in their ideology and when in power would carry on the same policy of "destabilization". Those whom they destabilize are too weak politically to retaliate.
Fourth, our great institutions of state have become political instruments for taking advantage of us in every way imaginable. Maharashtra, affected by the most vicious act of terrorism yet experienced was held hostage to the political machinations of the Congress and NCP for days before appointing a more capable Chief Minister. Is caste politics emblematic of a 21st century India? And should choices for the Maharashtra CM be confined to a list of the dubious?
Assuming that it was not a case of replacing one "whipping boy" by another, when were our institutions not political instruments for taking advantage of us? The elite disjunction I talked about should have been apparent to the author if he had studied the patterns of voting in the very first elections India had within the Republican setup- even then the dual system of voting with separate/twin candidature for the same seat reserved on caste lines showed that it substantially damaged the Cong candidates - and that this system was promptly withdrawn - whereas a case study of a South Indian city shows how beginning in the late 50's the Cong found the Left threat growing and revived a fundamentalist Muslim "party" to counter the communists, and in another revived caste-based candidatures for the same purpose.
Fifth, our political system has now become completely dysfunctional in form and substance. Present political machinery is inherently incapable of delivering good governance no matter how well-intended it might be; which it is not. The senior Mrs. Gandhi's imperial hauteur triggered the end of one great national party. Since her ascension, Congress has become a private family business that no one but the family can run. But family members are not wise, knowledgeable, or capable. If they were, they would not have kept as Home Minister someone who had proved himself so grossly incompetent (though sartorially elegant) time and again, just because he was loyal. They are unable to distinguish between their political interests and those of the country. They live off an unfortunate legacy of involuntary sacrifice. The Nehru-Gandhi dynasty has done some good. But it has also done much harm to India's economy, polity, and the integrity of its social fabric with profoundly mistaken strategic choices. What this family should do now is leave India to find its own feet without them. They could let India dispense with the curse of dynasty and allow what was once a great national party to rebuild itself, so that talent, not heritage and surname, are valued. They could let capable young politicians rather than sycophants kowtowing to the family come to the fore.
Well, well, it is not just dynasty - it is about a party structure that allows selection from the top of lower functionaries - be it formally grounded in elections or not - remember how the great Gandhiji threw tantrums when his candidate lost direct party elections and engineered a committee "boycott" of the elected "party chief"? This was the first obvious example even in pre-Independence India of the intolerance of popular will in electing party functionaries and choices based on selections arising from caste/region/family/linguistic considerations (Krishna from Gujarat used Pandava-Kuru's from UP to "split" Jarasandha from Magadha of Bihar/Bengal). When you start doing this, you will only let in "hand raisers" weak enough in capabilities so that they will always remain dependent on you and always support you in internal party struggles and staying in posts. Over time your lower functionaries will recruit even weaker subservients and over time you will replace the whole party with dumbheads.
But, just as Congress has degenerated into becoming a family firm, the BJP has morphed from various preceding branches of an 'opposition' to Congress to go the communal route; hinting none too subtly that democracy should be replaced with a tyranny of the religious majority. An accompanying trend to the mutation of the two national parties has been the emergence of fractured regional entities posturing as political parties when they have no beliefs, values, or philosophies about economics, politics, social development or governance. But, playing on themes of caste, creed (greed?) and language, such parties have gained local traction. They are the price that India now has to pay in the form of dysfunctional coalition governments in which the national parties provide a platform. The rest represent caste interests (dalits, yadavs, thakurs, gujjars, marathas, brahmins ... the list is endless) or a Marxist Left incapable of learning. They are available to the highest bidder. They need ministerial office for immunity from prosecution and enrich their privy purses. But we have no defence from them.
Can the majority be "tyrannical"? Is democracy which is firmly based on the principle of majority tyrannical? What a state of consfusion you are in dear author!! The regional fractures were encouraged primarily by the Congress to divert popular discontent and rival claims from the left of centre or leftist trends. We have defence definitely, but not your way!
Sixth, our ability to exert any real political choice and discipline over those who supposedly represent us, when they go astray, has disappeared. Since one political coalition is as venal as the other we have no real choice. Our laws for investigating assets disproportionate to known income as a check on political malfeasance have fallen by the wayside. Indeed no politician cares about being prosecuted for amassing wealth illegally. Many are happy to reveal ill-gotten gains publicly. They are aided and abetted by laws intended to encourage equal opportunity, but instead provide perverse incentives for entrenching the caste system through a pervasive and pernicious system of preferences. In all these ways, we the Indian public, have become complicit in the ethical disintegration and corruption that engulfs us; that makes India a lawless, non-compliant, undisciplined, ungovernable society, in more ways than one.
The fundamental problem is the proliferation of power centres and decision makers, and lack of direct responsibility which is diffused in vague groups - that will sacrifice one goat from among themselves to keep the rest munching on. A concentration of power and accountability in a drastically reduced group or perhaps even individuals - directly elected and accountable to the people, can reduce the number of "lucrative" political careers open now and reduce at one stroke the myriad problems mentioned.
But we also lack in our desire as citizens to demand the best. Why?
Because: seventh, we are pretty lawless ourselves. We pride ourselves on our individualism to the point where we do not notice how antisocial we are. We take short cuts as a matter of course every day in every way. We seek preferences at every turn, and look for favoured treatment through political connections to employment, promotion, licenses and other forms of advantage. The way we drive on the roads, cross streets, or queue for buses, trains or tickets at a cinema, shows just how unruly and undisciplined we are. We have not yet come to accept what is taken for granted in developed societies: i.e. that laws and rules apply to us in every aspect of our daily lives. They are not applicable only to others. We need to become a law-abiding, compliant society to reduce the frictional losses and transaction costs of selfish and undisciplined behaviour. We need to care not just for ourselves but for our neighbours. We need not to keep just the inside of our home clean while allowing common areas outside to be filthy. We need all these things more urgently than we need anything else to develop and grow. We need them sooner rather than later.
Have you ever really studied how these so-called developed societies transitioned from even more "lawless/apathetic" societies into "law-abiding" ones? In each case, they were lawless exactly because they were poor, exploited ruthlessly, invaded by looting/raping/slaughtering forces - these were people surviving anyway they could - almost always descendants of more peaceful/agrarian/atavic cultures in sync with their environment and surviving non-destructively who were completely unprepared culturally to deal with the violent expansive and destructive intrusions from outside. They did not have a theory of first-strike which their opponents had - and were knocked senseless before they even could think of standing up. By the time they recovered their senses - they were wounded, bones broken, skulls knocked in - this was how our people became apathetic. What arrogance is this in blaming the people first - just as elites do :evil: ? All the so-called transitions for the better in these "developed societies" were under ruthless "dictatorships" - you won't have any problem with that for India, would you?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Singha »

very good post Brihaspati..need to read it a few times....

both the yuvraj's have some traits in common, like the tendency to be a little lazy and party hard.

but the real kirket yuvraj is a patriot and swings his sword really hard.
he has killed many enemy centurions and scattered their ranks. gotta
love the guy, he has attitude and mostly delivers.

the other yuvraj is the kind who has never been 10ft away from his
Momma and leads a protected 5* existence that makes bilawal bhutto
look like a vympel trooper. looks like he will break into tears and run
to his mum if slapped hard. talk about a white piece of fragile porcelein.
any foreign leader worth his salt will have this poor guy for a snack.
and nor is he is the cerebral chankian to make up for lack of physical
intimidation.

nobody has really furnished convincing evidence that he has even held
down a real job so far (some "sw company in UK" has been half heartedly mentioned) or had to support a family on his own shoulders and earnings. thats the bare bottom rung of capability one would hope
to see in a 'leader'.

he +vely makes GW2 look like a guy who worked his way up from a
hardscrabble farm in say tenessee :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by RajaJi »

I see some people calling MMS a fag or feminine sardar etc., i think a more appropriate word for him would be EDITED. lol!

thanks you for that comment Rajaji.
people I do think we should have more productive activities than ascribing various innovative names to MMS.
This should NOT go on.
Rahul.
VikramS
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by VikramS »

Folks there is no point screaming against MMS. He is what he is, an economist, not an orator. Further he does not have any real power.

What I do worry about is Sonia whose instincts to preserve the gaddi for the the prince, overwhelms national interests. The UPA thrived on the minority vote but unlike the past leaders, she does not have have any history or association with the Indian nation; she almost left India for Italy after RG's assasination. I remember seeing a news item talking about how UPA was releaved that the IMs still voted for them after the sabre-rattling against Pakistan after the Mumbai attacks; shows the regard they have for IMs.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by vsudhir »

Folks,

Am no fan of (say in chaste bangla accent) Shri moan-moan-sing, but calling him names like f@g, h1jra etc is beyond the pale, cheapens debate and achieves little. Would be nyce to edit out such pointless references onlee. Moi mere 2 cents and all that.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

vikrams wrote:Folks there is no point screaming against MMS. He is what he is, an economist, not an orator. Further he does not have any real power.
agreed about first point but not second. he is just another G family sycophant who in greed for power and to rule it over other bureacurats has forgotten oath to the nation and the common citizen

there is basically no difference between lalu prasad, mayawati or mms. all three are people of the same level caliber, it is just that some are better at disguising inner "ambition" and desire for power and other are more open.

mms plays to the media gallery which see mms as "one of us" so he gets free pass

mms danger is that he has used this "honest economist" image to constantly play a very nasty political game at expense of electorate

just an economist would not defend antulay, or make politician statement about haneef

all this would not matter but for fact that he has not fulfilled his requirement to protect indian citizen.

he could have got all the prizes he want , as long as he was strong on national security.
What I do worry about is Sonia whose instincts to preserve the gaddi for the the prince, overwhelms national interests. The UPA thrived on the minority vote but unlike the past leaders, she does not have have any history or association with the Indian nation; she almost left India for Italy after RG's assasination. I remember seeing a news item talking about how UPA was releaved that the IMs still voted for them after the sabre-rattling against Pakistan after the Mumbai attacks; shows the regard they have for IMs.
agreed but if she is bad, crown prince will be many time worse. crown prince has even less idea of indian reality or culture, since he is grown up in elite establishments and limitless wealth which insulate him even more.

in other thread about indian elections, vir sanghvi has written PC piece about Sonia but with detail
cutting away the fluffs, there is still information in it.

she has fundamental belief in:
- hatred for hindu right (vir sanghvi says "viscerl dislike")
- belief in goodness of NGOs (we all know what NGO are upto in india)

basically she is no different from talbott, clinton and many other "expert on india" like them
all of these people have fundamental belief in intense hating of hindu right (but not for similar minority activities) and they support NGO activities (which are root cause of intense social conflict in many place)

now each of above reflect on policy:

many ngo are against strong stand on national defence also internal law and order giving human right as critical. congress goes along with that behaving.

since hindu right takes a strong position on defence, anti pak terror, internal strong laws and similar stance, sonia reflex action is to do opposite, which is at crux of issue since her party supporters will do likewise

so in that sense, this congress is useless and is becoming another cpi style grouping which work on idealogy and not reality and it will not change till the dynasty is gone.
only then congress will have chance to reinvent itself and become a strong nationalist party
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vivek K »

Vikram S - your rants are a) divisive, b) biased and c) childish!

ABV was a great orator, yet what did he do to secure India? Vacation in Lahore while the PA was mobilising and occupying Indian territory in Kargil? Then after the attack on the parliament oh he spoke in such a manly way about fighting the decisive "aar paar ki ladayi". OOOh! I almost fell off the bed with the adrenalin rushing through my body!! Yet what did he do? Nothing!

Read my posts again and take the blinkers off! I have no cause to defend ANY politician. I bring out ABV as an example for you to learn from. I doubt you will.

I am gald that saner people are in control of the situation, though. The Indian response will take the shape and form that the situation warrants.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

Vikram S - your rants are a) divisive, b) biased and c) childish!
better than your comments which are:
a)shameless b)dishonest and c) idiotic

especially when after every attack you make same comment defending the current fool of Govt.

otherwise you can keep defending your UPA to your heart satisfaction and people here can see how callous people like you are. we dont care if you have family in UPA and about your personal political belief.

come back to india and get your wonderful UPA to protect india and i will vote for them. like singha said we will take procession out to salute them.

right now they have lost faith.

do not sit in US and lecture about patriotism and pride. these word sound stupid and hollow given your butt is safe.

ABV was a great orator, yet what did he do to secure India? Vacation in Lahore while the PA was mobilising and occupying Indian territory in Kargil? Then after the attack on the parliament oh he spoke in such a manly way about fighting the decisive "aar paar ki ladayi". OOOh! I almost fell off the bed with the adrenalin rushing through my body!! Yet what did he do? Nothing!
if you fall off bed thinking of war, you are an immature child with no business to talk of war.

by dumping on ABV you dont excuse your beloved MMS.

ABV at least had guts to test nuke, your beloved MMS was first to get up in parliament and oppose it

during ABV tenure india first tried the peace approach but when it did not work india went on offense against pakistan using fire assault approach

you are absolutely ignorant about reality of situation. in 2001 india mobilzed to prevent pak incursion and kept hitting pak with artillery till pak begged away.

read brajesh mishra comments about there being option other than war. talk about childish that you did not even know this.

at least that old fellow did something instead of mumbling. MMS has done nothing! that is what is the problem!

your above statement also prove that you know nothing of reality in india and are sitting somewhere making pompous statement about pride. who is child here. talk of patriotism and pride will make us worthless idiot in india safe?

about talk of divisive, whom are you fooling?

instead of making statement about MMS constraint or where he made mistake your stupid approach is to dump crap on NDA ---> that is not divisive

your only approach so far has been to dip your hands in the toilet and wave it on NDA because i said one statement about UPA being worthless on national security which everyone know after umpteen stupid decision on artillery purchase to MRCA
Read my posts again and take the blinkers off! I have no cause to defend ANY politician. I bring out ABV as an example for you to learn from. I doubt you will.
your posts are quite open about your own bias.

you give ABV as an example to defend UPA incompetence. this is umpteen BRF thread on attack in past few month and each you have defended MMS and incompetence by doing the same stupid trick and making false appeal to patriotism and pride.

you can keep your patriotism and pride, it is worth nothing to victim of terror. it is cheap, hollow talk which people like you use to divert attention away from govt failing because their favorte party is not to be said anything against.
I am glad that saner people are in control of the situation, though. The Indian response will take the shape and form that the situation warrants.
yes you will be glad, sitting safely someplace else with nothing at stake.
people like us who have something in stake and who are worried about our daily live and where next attack will occur do not have your self assure sanity and arrogance to speak worthless comment about false pride and false patriotism.

any Govt even if this present UPA changes things, it will be worth it.
Last edited by Vikram_S on 24 Dec 2008 21:23, edited 2 times in total.
enqyoob
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by enqyoob »

So, to summarize this thread, the Indian Response to Terrorism is to :(( :(( :(( ?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Mort Walker »

Vivek,

As far as the leadership goes. ABV and MMS have actually behaved in a similar way. And in fact it was shameful for JS to travel to Kandahar. The big difference in the UPA and NDA is the administrative policies of both governments. If the NDA were in charge, the Home Ministry would have more legal teeth and assets (perhaps 26/11 would not have happened). The MMRCA would be toward final purchase and the LCA would be further along in production. The IA would have modernized its artillery and have better air mobility.

The ultimate response to TSP terrorism must be a full nuclear strike on TSP assets and then ensure that there are at least 20 million dead Pakistanis. This will buy lasting peace. It can be done. Nuclear war is winnable and there is no need to fear. India is in possession of several 10-20 KT weapons with clean burn capability. That is there would be fewer radioactive elements and most of the fissile material is burned or converted to energy. Striking TSP would eliminate AQ and terrorist Islam.
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Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.
Please read:

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Atomic-Bom ... 474&sr=8-1
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by negi »

Vivek K wrote:Vikram S - your rants are a) divisive, b) biased and c) childish!

ABV was a great orator, yet what did he do to secure India? Vacation in Lahore while the PA was mobilising and occupying Indian territory in Kargil?
Wait a minute , we are here criticizing the REACTION of the GOI to the attacks and not why did it fail to prevent the same, infact I am pretty sure that given our security infra and chalta hai attitude JIHADI's can do another MUMBAI at will.

So yes ABV and his regime failed to prevent Kargil but they never politicsed the whole episode unlike the current GOI which has been using lunatics like Antulay,Lalloo and even Amar singh to
divert the public attention.

The reason why mumble mumble singh has been lamented is for his sheer ignorance and self denial until the MUMBAI attacks with respect to the ground realities in Pakistan.He was the one who endorsed the idea about India == Pakistan when it came to terrorism. He was the one who was almost about to give up on SIACHIN this despite the Kargil misadventure :eek: .

This fool even went about apologizing on the behalf of the whole of the country for GODHARA as if the government itself had staged the massacre , I never saw any political party resorting to dirty politics when Sikh's were killed in 84 riots when Kangress regime was at the helm of the affairs.

It is his Governement that is supporting the separatists in the J&K for the vote bank and even trying to deepen the Hindu Muslim divide in the name of HINDU ZIONISTS/TERRORISTS . And now various segments of the UPA have started justifying their appeasement of the extremists as a response to the former.

Kangress regime has tried their best to exploit the BABRI masjid demolition and GODHRA to fan hatred and disgust for the BJP amognst the IM , however in process they have actually managed to pitch the two communities against each other.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Baljeet »

CRamS wrote:Baljeet:

You are paiting a way too pessiomistic scenario; exactly what TSP is hoping for. I have never advocated a full-scale attack on TSP; matter of fact thats exactly waht they are waiting for, and the only reason why TSP undertook Mumbai slaughter. They are hoping for India to go head on, forcing a stalemate, nuke flashpoint bla bla, and Unkil stepping in and re-drawing the landscape. Short of that they are also expecting that India will be reduced to that of TSP in terms of foreign investment etc. Thats why all the heartburn that England resumed their cricket tour. My point is that TSP should be made to pay for this slaughter. And there are many ways of accomplishing this including military option. All this cowardly talk about TSP will be the ante, we will be held back by 10 years etc means TSP has already won the gaame and set. And boss, you and I both know TSP RAPE. When push comes to shove, when they sense they are loosing their wine, women, and $, you can be rest assured they will buckle like 9 pins. So, please stop all your cowardly nonsense. Freedom and great power status does not come for free, costs are involved. Look at US. It sacrificed 1000s of its troops for Iraqi oil and mid-east dominance.
CRamS
First of all you don't know anything about me, and you are calling me coward. Dude, please know someone at personal level before doing the name calling. You give an example of US, well where is US now, neither they have Iraqi oil nor do they have Osama even after spending $80 Billion a year and deaths of thousands of life--the latest toll being just notch above 4k dead and 10k wounded. Even US can't do anything all the while their supply lines are being held hostage and burned down. The same US that wants to drag us into war has been giving Cobra Attack Helos, F-16s, Amraam Missiles, Hawk Eyes, cluster bombs, 2000 TOW Missiles etc. Didn't they know what was going on before or their Intel agencies just woke up from slumber because few Westerners died. Wasn't it Sec of Defense who said after Kabul Embassy Attack there is no proof that Pakistan was involved in this attack.
My scenario is based on ground reality. That is why I am not advocating Overt War. I am 100% in favor of covert war. Lets get on World Bank Board, IMF Board, Make our alliance with France, Spain, Britain, Italy such that in future when Mullahs come before our friends with begging bowl noose gets tightened slowly and surely. Lets put our covert assets in place, they should be well funded, well equipped. We don't have to give them equipment if we are smart (highly doubtful) we can use RDX, Explosives, Guns provided by Pakis, on Pakis. Why is it so hard to recruit some people in pakistan itself send them to lashkar camps get their weapons and training let them loose in pakistan.

Pakistani have been playing this game with precision and established methodology. They know our weaknesses and strengths. They invested in modernized submarines force while India was pussy footing, launching all kinds of corruption probe delaying the modernization of subs. Pakis have been modernizing their Heavy Arty, WLR, long range rockets with clinical precision whereas we keep putthing 155mm guns on needless trials over and over and over again. Pakis have their armored force ready to strike, our armored corps is fighinting tooth and nail battle over if Trash 90 is worse or better than Arjun. Their SSG group is fully rested and trained, Our Special forces are busy protecting the Netas and privileged class.

The only saving grace for India is her Air Force with hair line advantage over Pakis. Other than that it is a stalemate. In stalemate Pakis win, India loses. They will emerge stronger, ask for kashmir even more bluntly. Do you think Indian Leaders or population is ready to fight a prolonged war.

All we can do is talk on BRF, do our venting, prove our Jingoism, make ourselves feel good but in the end nothing has changed, nothing will change. Give it year or so, there will be calls for bhai chara, WKK, another test series with pak, all the media hype and everything will be forgotten till next time and the cycle repeats.

So Mr. CRamS professionals never get angry, angry man are never professionals. Since you have already shown yourself by resorting to personal attacks, I rest my case.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vivek K »

Mort Walker wrote:As far as the leadership goes. ABV and MMS have actually behaved in a similar way.
And that is a fact! No amount of good oratorial skills can hide this fact. There were/are ground realities which held back the hands of both administrations.
And in fact it was shameful for JS to travel to Kandahar.
Agree there too!
The big difference in the UPA and NDA is the administrative policies of both governments. If the NDA were in charge, the Home Ministry would have more legal teeth and assets (perhaps 26/11 would not have happened).
Did POTA stop the attack on the parliament or Akshar Dham or Kaluchak?
The MMRCA would be toward final purchase and the LCA would be further along in production. The IA would have modernized its artillery and have better air mobility.
Mort, come now. That is wishful thinking isn't it? NDA would have got the LCA further along? MMRCA? (We need to sit and discuss this later over a cup of tea and Pizza)!!
The ultimate response to TSP terrorism must be a full nuclear strike on TSP assets and then ensure that there are at least 20 million dead Pakistanis. This will buy lasting peace.
The only time in human history that this has been true is in the second world war where the US used atomic weapons against the Japanese. True it has kept the Japs quite for 6 decades but it would be against the Hindu nature to kill so many.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

negi

i was thinking when NDA was in power, this is inexperienced party and not good enough

and "grand old party of india", Congress will now come to power and give a proper slap to pakistan or at least be strong on internal security

instead these fools all they have done is break laws, shackle policemen actions, attach tags like saffron terror to both indian army and hindu community.
amar singh even attack batla house encounter police force and congress minority group supported him

even after all this, there are still attack after attack in india. every city has now been hit and now we are going to round 2 of attack and even defence services dont have MRCA (which was sanction by NDA) or new arty guns (because Bofors name cannot be standed by UPA)

if you say these people are idiots then you will have great people to say ABV had affair, was drunk or foolish or was eating babies so congress is better

anyone who is in india and is suffering thanks to these scum should curse them so that next party to come in know what is expected of national secuirty
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vivek K »

{OT post, deleted}
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by brihaspati »

Isn't it time to think beyond ABV or MMS, they will of course play their roles sometimes into the future. There were specific circumstances that led to their rise. And in spite of whatever we say about them on BR, we have little direct influence on their future. It is time to focus on the future and look for what criteria we should establish or demand from leadership candidates. How about demanding that the parties hold secret ballot elections for party candidature for elections and party posts in the presence of representatives of the NEC? What should we set aspiring leaders as targets to achieve in 5 years, in 10 years, in 20 years, in 50 years. With all due respects to BRfites, please avoid swears and innovative interpretations of initials - many of these are stigmatizations of poor animals or humans who are themselves perhaps of much higher "standards" of behaviour than those whom you ascribe them to.

"Nripaniti barangana-sama" (not from my pen :) )

{But please continue this discussion on the "ELECTIONS 2009"" thread.}
Last edited by enqyoob on 24 Dec 2008 21:46, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: OT
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

MORT wrote:The ultimate response to TSP terrorism must be a full nuclear strike on TSP assets and then ensure that there are at least 20 million dead Pakistanis. This will buy lasting peace. It can be done. Nuclear war is winnable and there is no need to fear. India is in possession of several 10-20 KT weapons with clean burn capability. That is there would be fewer radioactive elements and most of the fissile material is burned or converted to energy. Striking TSP would eliminate AQ and terrorist Islam.
Ultimately i am also coming around to this point of view. pakistan biggest card (only card) against india is nuclear war. now question is, is there a way to win a nuclear war. my thoughts are:


-city, economy are people. protect the people, get them out of target cities during wartime to tier 2 and tier 3. but dont publicize these plans otherwise targeting will change

- complete devastation of pakistan military capability and jihad capability

- detail planning of post war scenario (there will be huge pressure on india by other player like china, west to take care of pak burden of economy, human rights, claim of genocide & try to denuclearize india - so we have to have this planned out to see how to use UN, and "Ally-states" to split up pak)

yes, indians can die in nuclear war and much worse, but same can happen to us in next terrorism strike also. how can we tell which next shopping mall, which next cinema theater or workplace is going to be attack?

so only way forward is to prepare for unthinkable (ie nuclear war) and ramp up covert war within pak to pit pak army against own jihadis. so if you are prepared for "worst", then you can take tough actions

this has to be consensus across parties.

if we force this thought pattern across, then automatically defense purchase, internal security will be strengthen now internal party know there is consensus on defeat pakistan at all cost
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by enqyoob »

protect the people, get them out of target cities during wartime to tier 2 and tier 3. but dont publicize these plans otherwise targeting will change


Ah! Move 15 million people out of, say, Mumbai to "tier 2 and tier 3" in a few days without the Pakistanis knowing about it...
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

And in fact it was shameful for JS to travel to Kandahar.
Agree there too!
this is VERY wrong. you guys are actually pulling out one commendable action that the person did and painting it black ! really disgusting.

minus the rhetoric (ably used by INC every time anyone accused them of being soft on terror), what exactly was shameful about it ?
what should have been done once the a/c was outside India ?
JS went to kandahar and particiapted in some very tough negotiations. the team required a person with political authority who could take the decisions on the ground.
How many politicians would be willing to risk their skin in a hell on earth like taliban ruled afghanistan ?
Did POTA stop the attack on the parliament or Akshar Dham or Kaluchak?
are laws supposed to magically stop terrorism ?
what preventive ability would a law have if it is not allowed to take its course by political interference.
leave laws, even a gun isn't effective unless somebody is ready to fire it.
btw, would you deny that the previous govt terror record was far better ?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

Vikram_S, IMO it is possible to take out pakistan's nuclear dagger in pre-emptive counter-value strikes backed up by some meticulous intel gathering.

the internal disturbances has seriously affected pak's ability to spread its assets. instead of dispersal pak would be forced to hold its nukes in military strongholds and cantonments.
there are not that many of those ! :wink:

NWFP is mostly out of contention leaving pakjab, sindh and balochistan.

targets close to border areas in the first two can be tasked to army LR arty and missiles and to the airforce for deeper targets.
targets in baluchistan can be targeted by IN and IAF.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

narayanan wrote:
protect the people, get them out of target cities during wartime to tier 2 and tier 3. but dont publicize these plans otherwise targeting will change


Ah! Move 15 million people out of, say, Mumbai to "tier 2 and tier 3" in a few days without the Pakistanis knowing about it...
narayanan

logistic will be problem but is not undoable if india gives real effort into this. this "trick" cannot be played 2-3 times. even one time, and hand will be exposed but that one time gives india decision maker huge leeway.

the point is not to announce this decade in advance like the NSG hubs proposal so that pak knows far in advance and takes measures (increases nuke)

there are several cities around each metro, or temporary camps that can be organized and planned along with detailed planning on line of disaster relief.

run disinformation campaign to disguise real plans.

with combination of BMD, population dispersion the amount of nuke pak has to allocate to each target rises.

aim is to keep this method low key so that pak still allocates same amount of nuke as earlier but this is no longer effective (for pak).

if 70% of population of city is destroyed, that is city gone. if 70% can be saved, that is still (limited) success. a lot of us will be in that 30% but perhaps it is better than sitting around and drawing lottery card of who will die in next attack. this just breaks the belief in nation, faith and even life.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by negi »

I am not for strikes on PAKISTAN why ?

Our Country is no longer United even when it comes to issues like National security

1. GOI and its components and the media have inflicted severe damage to our case by scoring umpteen self goals, this is the first time when after a terrorist attack in the country people (read the comments in TOI/Outlook/Hindu etc) have actually bought the conspiracy theory about RAW-MOSAD-Hindu terrorist nexus.Office bearers like Antulay,Amar singh and Lalloo have not helped our case by indulging in skulduggery.

2. By approaching the UN and International community , GOI has already passed on the buck, now what has happened is USA as expected has swept things under the carpet (look at CNN,NYTIMES, WAS post no coverage :mrgreen: ) for the latter is more concerned about the Al-Quaeda witch hunt in Afghanistan & according to the latest reports UN too has given Pakistan clean chit (and rightly so) as Pakistan has banned Jamat-ul-dawa as directed isn't this what MMS and Co wanted. :lol:

3. IT's TOO LATE, GOI has wasted time in procrastinating and playing politics , the guilty obviously might have become underground and Pakistan forces are now on all alert. And attacking now will only cause collateral damage on both the sides and more civilians will die.

And btw isn't the war already over I heard some dozens of ASHOK chakras will be distributed to the IPS. :)
Last edited by negi on 24 Dec 2008 22:04, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by vsudhir »

Some rabid porki using nukes (acquired from deal fleind PRC, if the current lot is in unkil's lota) against yindia is not a question of 'if' but of 'when' followed by 'where' and 'how'. 'Why' doesn't even figure in serious tought on this issue anymore.

Further, whether the said porki nuker would be on official govt payroll or not is a pointless distinction.

Going even further, moi would fully expect TSP to continue its diplomatic offensive after launching its nuke attack by demanding to see evidence that TSP has any role at all in the nuking.

Hence, GoI needs to move fully assuming TSP will use whatever nukes it may have. Kicking this can down the road can only serve to pass the heat on to the next government but wouldn't be any sort of 'solution'.

Hope NBC capability of our military (at least the frontline units) is not negligible.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

Rahul M wrote:Vikram_S, IMO it is possible to take out pakistan's nuclear dagger in pre-emptive counter-value strikes backed up by some meticulous intel gathering.

the internal disturbances has seriously affected pak's ability to spread its assets. instead of dispersal pak would be forced to hold its nukes in military strongholds and cantonments.
there are not that many of those ! :wink:

NWFP is mostly out of contention leaving pakjab, sindh and balochistan.

targets close to border areas in the first two can be tasked to army LR arty and missiles and to the airforce for deeper targets.
targets in baluchistan can be targeted by IN and IAF.
rahul

i wonder if we have really even tried doing this? we should do the level best to determine each and every detail on pak down to even underwear size of kayani but after gujral, morarji type of leaders ----> are indian leaders 20% serious about pakistani problem
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

vsudhir wrote:Some rabid porki using nukes (acquired from deal fleind PRC, if the current lot is in unkil's lota) against yindia is not a question of 'if' but of 'when' followed by 'where' and 'how'. 'Why' doesn't even figure in serious tought on this issue anymore.
.
wmd strike in india is given for sure at rate things are going.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Abhi_G »

And in fact it was shameful for JS to travel to Kandahar.
Agree there too!

For Kandahar episode, please refer to this.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/145600/The- ... dahar.html
Last edited by Abhi_G on 24 Dec 2008 22:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ramana »

AajTak and all are reporting TSp troops moved to border.

Our man in Mumbai says some of his sources were contacted to brace for hostilities soon.

I think TSP will launch a pre-emptive strike and claim they did that to prevent Indian attack. So watch and pray that Lord gives some buddhi and spine to ur mumbling leaders. And MKN for once does not betray his oath to the country when he graduated from Police Academy and the forces are ready and not come up with excuses.
----------

NDA's action or inaction is no excuse to justify not defending Indian interests by the UPA. OK JS and NDA is nikammah.

Having granted that it does not mean UPA gives up its Constituional duty. Unfortunately UPA wasnt formed in India.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

Vikram_S wrote:
vsudhir wrote:Some rabid porki using nukes (acquired from deal fleind PRC, if the current lot is in unkil's lota) against yindia is not a question of 'if' but of 'when' followed by 'where' and 'how'. 'Why' doesn't even figure in serious tought on this issue anymore.
.
wmd strike in india is given for sure at rate things are going.
more a question of when than if.

even in the last incident the pak irregular terrorists could have EASILY smuggled in a nuke and exploded it in the middle of mumbai.
they didn't because of fear of retribution but that fear would be replaced by manic bloodthirst as the situation for the pak state gets more desperate.
Raju

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Raju »

Strike against Pakistan only question of when and not if.

the sword is being taken out and polished.
prepare for war
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

Raju wrote:........prepare for war
how ? :-?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Vikram_S »

Abhi_G wrote:
Agree there too!

For Kandahar episode, please refer to this.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/145600/The- ... dahar.html
“We want our relatives back. What difference does it make to us what you have to give the hijackers?” a man shouted. “We don’t care if you have to give away Kashmir,” a woman screamed and others took up the refrain, chanting: “Kashmir de do, kuchh bhi de do, hamare logon ko ghar wapas lao.” Another woman sobbed, “Mera beta… hai mera beta…” and made a great show of fainting of grief.

To his credit, Mr Jaswant Singh made bold to suggest that the Government had to keep the nation’s interest in mind, that we could not be seen to be giving in to the hijackers, or words to that effect, in chaste Hindi. That fetched him abuse and rebuke. “Bhaand me jaaye desh aur bhaand me jaaye desh ka hit. (To hell with the country and national interest),” many in the crowd shouted back. Stumped by the response, Mr Jaswant Singh could merely promise that the Government would do everything possible.


I do not remember the exact date, but sometime during the crisis, Mr Jaswant Singh was asked to hold a Press conference to brief the media. While the briefing was on at the Press Information Bureau hall in Shastri Bhavan, some families of the hostages barged in and started shouting slogans. They were led by one Sanjiv Chibber, who, I was later told, was a ‘noted surgeon’: He claimed six of his relatives were among the hostages.

Dr Chibber wanted all 36 terrorists named by the hijackers to be released immediately. He reminded everybody in the hall that in the past terrorists had been released from prison to secure the freedom of Ms Rubayya Sayeed, daughter of Mufti Mohammed Sayeed, while he was Home Minister in VP Singh’s Government. “Why can’t you release the terrorists now when our relatives are being held hostage?” he demanded. And then we heard the familiar refrain: “Give away Kashmir, give them anything they want, we don’t give a damn.”

On another evening, there was a surprise visitor at the PMO: The widow of Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja, whose plane was shot down during the Kargil war. She insisted that she should be taken to meet the relatives of the hostages. At Race Course Road, she spoke to mediapersons and the hostages’ relatives, explaining why India must not be seen giving in to the hijackers, that it was a question of national honour, and gave her own example of fortitude in the face of adversity.

“She has become a widow, now she wants others to become widows. Who is she to lecture us? Yeh kahan se aayi?” someone shouted from the crowd. Others heckled her. The young widow stood her ground, displaying great dignity and courage. As the mood turned increasingly ugly, she had to be led away. Similar appeals were made by others who had lost their sons, husbands and fathers in the Kargil war that summer. Col Virendra Thapar, whose son Lt Vijayant Thapar was martyred in the war, made a fervent appeal for people to stand united against the hijackers. It fell on deaf ears.
..this is my other fear, how long will defence services keep fighting for such a country? if they also stop fighting realising kind of people they are defending (us) then it is a repeat of history and that is not enjoyable to say least
Last edited by Vikram_S on 24 Dec 2008 22:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by brihaspati »

Very very surprised indeed to know that we are thinking of evacuating megacities in preparation for nuke fallouts! Where would you move them? Take the case of Mumbai - how far would be safe and out of range for "fallouts" - out of Maharashtra it appears: what about having a million odd people having to learn to forget Marathi and speak the native tongues of MP/Orissa/Andhra/Karnataka - insurmountable problem of infrastructure. Add to that populations of Delhi, Ahmedabad, Surat, Chandigarh, Jaipur, Meerut.....given the unity of diversity, an "infrastructure" problem beyond imagination. There would be social tensions that can itself be compared to multiple mini civil-wars.

The nuke option if taken probably needs lobbing them to the rear of the main Pak forces in the east, a first strike option, and a simultaneous neutralization of all air capabilities - probably even a satellite based missile shield (but China could take it out with an "accidental" launch of anti-satellite missiles). Bettter if the war could be fought under a nuke superiority shadow rather than having to actually use it.

What about mounting media blitz about (1) what Pak commons will face when nuke strikes them in graphic details apart from smell of vanishing beards (2) that Pak has less territory to squeeze away from such a fallout compared to India and just in case they think of a "watery escape" that the Indian navy would be ready to block all passages out of K.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

Abhi_G wrote:
Agree there too!

For Kandahar episode, please refer to this.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/145600/The- ... dahar.html
thanks. nice article.
Raju

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Raju »

by being fully alert
and gaining complete control over your perimeter.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by milindc »

Baljeet wrote: That is why I am not advocating Overt War. I am 100% in favor of covert war. Lets get on World Bank Board, IMF Board, Make our alliance with France, Spain, Britain, Italy such that in future when Mullahs come before our friends with begging bowl noose gets tightened slowly and surely. Lets put our covert assets in place, they should be well funded, well equipped. We don't have to give them equipment if we are smart (highly doubtful) we can use RDX, Explosives, Guns provided by Pakis, on Pakis. Why is it so hard to recruit some people in pakistan itself send them to lashkar camps get their weapons and training let them loose in pakistan.
..........

So Mr. CRamS professionals never get angry, angry man are never professionals. Since you have already shown yourself by resorting to personal attacks, I rest my case.
Baljeet,
You are claiming to be a professional yet seem to ignore the most important point in your calculation, the economic situation of Pakistan. War requires tremendous money and they will in-fact compete for same resources with us during war-time.
Though there might be stalemate during initial days, the tide will immediately turn once the paki resources are exhausted.
Last edited by milindc on 24 Dec 2008 22:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

..this is my other fear, how long will defence services keep fighting for such a country? if they also stop fighting realising kind of people they are defending (us) then it is a repeat of history and that is not enjoyable to say least
vikram, this particular case is normal human nature.

even in rough and tough israel, there were vociferous demands by the victims' families to give in to the entebbe hijackers.
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