Indian Response to Terrorism

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2008 22:35

thank you Vikram for posting the details of the Kandahar episode. I have
always thought given the decision to release the three terrorists, JS did the right thing by making sure a very senior person from indian side went along to ensure the taliban would not renege on commitments or threaten the hostages any further.

it was not his decision alone to release the three but a cabinet one.

people have gone on and on about this, please stop.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 24 Dec 2008 22:38

brihaspati

if you read about nuclear war in military forum there is a primer and link. the largest devastation is immediate from attack (thermal/shock), surviving initial attack and fallout for next few days is most important. that is point about getting population out of harm way

so the point is to save population from the immediate attack by thinning population density in megacities

also go to fas and use nuclear strike calculator it shows what effect different warhead have
so it will take multiple strikes to take out complete city

what pak will do is try and saturate defence in 2-3 key citie with entire stockpile (if india have BMD system) so if the population density is also reduced at least there is chance of defeating this nefarious design

nobody is talking of settling populations in other cities permanently but to use them as temporary base camps since they have functioning infrastructure. if not existing cities then large camps with (at least) basic minimum facilities which are connected to tier 2/ tier 3 citie which act as base node for giving critical resources

govt has to take stand because india is not US where standard of living is high enough for people to on own take money and make nuclear shelter and stock food/water

if you have better idea i am all open to hear
my basic point is that one way or other we have to face the threat by pak and face reality
otherwise we are facing escalating attack with no end in sight

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2008 22:40

by being fully alert
and gaining complete control over your perimeter.

a cryptic comment and meanings at many levels Raju sir....

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 24 Dec 2008 22:44

Rahul M wrote:vikram, this particular case is normal human nature.

even in rough and tough israel, there were vociferous demands by the victims' families to give in to the entebbe hijackers.

ok, but i guess govt has to now come out with standard policy to take a tough stand no matter about people. it can hurt me and you as well..but no other option.

in that sense i think one positive about mumbai was that we did not engage in shameful negotiation. i dont know whether this was deliberate or just happened..?

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 24 Dec 2008 22:45

Singha wrote:thank you Vikram for posting the details of the Kandahar episode. I have
always thought given the decision to release the three terrorists, JS did the right thing by making sure a very senior person from indian side went along to ensure the taliban would not renege on commitments or threaten the hostages any further.

it was not his decision alone to release the three but a cabinet one.

people have gone on and on about this, please stop.

abhi_g posted the link,

i agree about JS, he is old school soldier so i dont think he is the laloo, mayawati type. also means he is naive about public perception.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 24 Dec 2008 22:52

Never ever compare MMS and ABV
ABV won many elections MMS is only a stand up told to stand.
(Sort of Italian poodle)

ABV was running the show when USA was courting TSP to sort out twin tower debris. This stand up is ruloing in the times when Bush Rice has made India super power

ABV could articulate if not execute, The stand up squeeks
Yes he is an economist not a leader. Lead or get out of the way. 2ven for that he needs orders from Sonia G

That in explains his lack of self esteem

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Dec 2008 22:53

^^ Vikram_S while I myself do not read much, but please this is the height of ignorance there were no demands from the attackers so question of negotiation was not there.

How difficult it is to comprehend the simple fact that this was an out an out attack on India's financial capital ? as against the Kandahar hijack which was staged to secure release of a terrorist which I am pretty sure would have been dealt in the same manner even by the Knagress as there were simply too many civilian lives at risk for one lone terrorist.

As I have said earlier criticism for MMS or GOI is not because they were unable to prevent the attack , but for politicising the issue and sending out confusing siganls to the aam junta and world community at this hour.

My grudge with NDA was not about how they handled Kandahar but with what did they do to prevent a future Kandahar, the security and the baggage clearance at the airports is pathetic .

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 24 Dec 2008 22:55

Vikram_S wrote:
Rahul M wrote:vikram, this particular case is normal human nature.

even in rough and tough israel, there were vociferous demands by the victims' families to give in to the entebbe hijackers.
ok, but i guess govt has to now come out with standard policy to take a tough stand no matter about people. it can hurt me and you as well..but no other option.

in that sense i think one positive about mumbai was that we did not engage in shameful negotiation. i dont know whether this was deliberate or just happened..?

Its not the policy but the will to implement it in tough times that is the problem for GoI. Once all hell breaks loose enough vested interest goad the Govt to give in. Case in point the recent pakistani attack in Mumbai. Even as the Govt of India kept saying there was no negotiations going on with the terrorists, some media celebrities kept pushing the argument for negotiation with the Pakistani Attackers. This was all done on live TV with a lot of hysterical theaterics from these personalities even as the Armed forces were engaged in a tough battle. These theaterics help in swinging the public opinion against the Govt and the Govt of the day for its own immediate survival gives into such demands. We have seen this happen enough times with all types of GoI dispensations. Media self censorship needs to be implemented before we can hope for any favorable outcomes. Without media acting in a mature and balanced manner there is zero chance of any policy succeeding.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Dec 2008 22:58

would mr. mumble have done pok 2, had he been the pm then?

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 24 Dec 2008 22:59

negi wrote:^^ Vikram_S while I myself do not read much, but please this is the height of ignorance there were no demands from the attackers so question of negotiation was not there.

what are you talking about and which post are you responding?
----

on rereading i understood:

you say you do not read much - ok fine, because that excuses your comment about ignorance and remaining

for your information: there were statement that at nariman the terrorists tried to negotiate and claims were made they were not responded to. this is getting play on TV channel. so this made me think.

my question of rahul m is deliberate. if this is official policy not to negotiate, then good, we have policy. if this was by "accident", then care should be taken to ensure there is policy.

another thing i read was NSG/armed forces ask for complete control of day 2 day ops and this was granted. i think this is one more positive aspect of horrific mumbai attack. this sets precedent for future emergencies for babucracy.

unified command control is must. and unified policy about dealing with terrorist is also must.
these bugger next time will try to get more media attention also

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 24 Dec 2008 23:01

BijuShet wrote:
Vikram_S wrote: ok, but i guess govt has to now come out with standard policy to take a tough stand no matter about people. it can hurt me and you as well..but no other option.

in that sense i think one positive about mumbai was that we did not engage in shameful negotiation. i dont know whether this was deliberate or just happened..?
Its not the policy but the will to implement it in tough times that is the problem for GoI. Once all hell breaks loose enough vested interest goad the Govt to give in. Case in point the recent pakistani attack in Mumbai. Even as the Govt of India kept saying there was no negotiations going on with the terrorists, some media celebrities kept pushing the argument for negotiation with the Pakistani Attackers. This was all done on live TV with a lot of hysterical theaterics from these personalities even as the Armed forces were engaged in a tough battle. These theaterics help in swinging the public opinion against the Govt and the Govt of the day for its own immediate survival gives into such demands. We have seen this happen enough times with all types of GoI dispensations. Media self censorship needs to be implemented before we can hope for any favorable outcomes. Without media acting in a mature and balanced manner there is zero chance of any policy succeeding.

agreed, i have posted on barkha dutt on another thread.
as senior jounralist she was expected to be sober instead she was most hysterical and may have also been responsible for loss of life. but no action was taken against media antics.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 24 Dec 2008 23:03

BijuShet wrote:These theaterics help in swinging the public opinion against the Govt and the Govt of the day for its own immediate survival gives into such demands. We have seen this happen enough times with all types of GoI dispensations. Media self censorship needs to be implemented before we can hope for any favorable outcomes. Without media acting in a mature and balanced manner there is zero chance of any policy succeeding.

All the media needs to do is show Zaid Hamid videos with his panipat battle message....
All desi janta will be behind GoI

Raghav K · Post by **Raghav K** » 24 Dec 2008 23:04

Can Gurus comment on this.

Indian strike capability

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... capability

According to Hindustan Times, Indian military intelligence officials maintain that India has developed the ability to carry precision strikes on LeT targets inside Azad Kashmir. G. Parthasarthy, former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan, confirms that a surgical strike by India is feasible, "But it would take two months of preparation. Diplomacy right now should be about preparing the ground for such action." In other words, attack loudly, but be stealthy about it afterwards.
Let us examine whether India can actually carry out these threats. Surgical strikes would fall under the domain of its air force or cruise and guided missiles. A brief look at Indian Air Force's Order of Battle should tell us about India's strike capabilities.It is evident that the Indian Air Force (IAF), ground attack platforms inventory includes 282 (including 32 Trainers) 98 x MiG-27 ML, 16 x MiG-23 BN, 72 x MiG-21 M/MF, 64 x Jaguar IS and 10 x Jaguar IM. Its inventory of 321 (including 32 Trainers) multi-role aircraft comprises 48 x MiG-29, 36 x Mirage 2000H, 104 x MiG-21 Bison, 48 x Sukhoi-30 MKI, 48 x MiG-21Bis. Out of the 600 odd aircraft enumerated above, the complement of 200 MiG 21s should not be considered as the entire fleet is near obsolescence; from the remaining, too, miracles should not be expected, as it has no Guided Bomb Units (GBUs) or Precision-Guided Munitions (PGMs) worth naming and thus has little or no surgical strike capability.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 24 Dec 2008 23:10

Raghav K wrote:Can Gurus comment on this.

Indian strike capability

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... capability

Plagiarist Hali's article

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 24 Dec 2008 23:14

Hali is smoking hashish, he is complete idiot

98 x MiG-27 ML, 16 x MiG-23 BN, 72 x MiG-21 M/MF, 64 x Jaguar IS and 10 x Jaguar IM. Its inventory of 321 (including 32 Trainers) multi-role aircraft comprises 48 x MiG-29, 36 x Mirage 2000H, 104 x MiG-21 Bison, 48 x Sukhoi-30 MKI, 48 x MiG-21Bis.

120 + Bison is capable of PGM strike (kab bomb, kh-25/29 missile)
4 Sq of MKI --> 60-80 aircraft capable of PGM strike (kab bomb, kh-25/29 missile)
2 Sq of MiG-27 upgraded planes --> capable of PGM strike (LGB)
3 Sq of Mirage 2000 --> capable of PGM strike (lgb, crystal maz missile)
2-3 Sq of Jaguar planes --> capable of PGM strike (lgb)

he is doing this to fool pakistan public and make them proud

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Dec 2008 23:15

Vikram_S wrote:
negi wrote:^^ Vikram_S while I myself do not read much, but please this is the height of ignorance there were no demands from the attackers so question of negotiation was not there.

what are you talking about and which post are you responding?
----

on rereading i understood:

you say you do not read much - ok fine, because that excuses your comment about ignorance and remaining

for your information: there were statement that at nariman the terrorists tried to negotiate and claims were made they were not responded to. this is getting play on TV channel. so this made me think.

Thanks but no thanks

Arrey baba that was when Terrorists were masquerading as Indian Mujahideen and were claiming that these attacks were in response to what happened in BABARI and GODHRA , and btw for a record we on the forum would like to know what were their demands ?

This was not a hostage situation and hence no question of negotiations , they were hell bent on burning/blowing the Hotel and kill as many guests (however IMO they had limited ammo and with NSG and police already at the scene they might have thought about the risk of running out of ammo for the gun fight).

All in all Mumbai attackers did not have any demands period, they had come here on a mission to kill and cause damage which they did. Their conversation with the media before getting captured was meant for creating a smoke screen and showing to the world this a reaction to the alleged attrocities on the minority community .

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 24 Dec 2008 23:17

I think that MMS was lucky to be able to pretend to be a good economist. During his FM stint with Narsimha Rao, it was IMF & Rao who were making policy while now he is just reaping the benefit of BJP ground work during 1998-2003. I can not think of any major economic, tax or industrial policy initiatives which he has brought about in his last 5 years as PM

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 24 Dec 2008 23:22

Vivek K wrote:Vikram S - your rants are a) divisive, b) biased and c) childish!

ABV was a great orator, yet what did he do to secure India? Vacation in Lahore while the PA was mobilising and occupying Indian territory in Kargil? Then after the attack on the parliament oh he spoke in such a manly way about fighting the decisive "aar paar ki ladayi". OOOh! I almost fell off the bed with the adrenalin rushing through my body!! Yet what did he do? Nothing!

Read my posts again and take the blinkers off! I have no cause to defend ANY politician. I bring out ABV as an example for you to learn from. I doubt you will.

I am gald that saner people are in control of the situation, though. The Indian response will take the shape and form that the situation warrants.

Think twice before you talk about ABV. He had his bad moments, but he was thousand times a leader any one in Kaangress can ever be. You talk about his debacle in Lahore, but don't forget that we did rape the Pigs in Kargil. If Rajmata & Sardar Ji was in power, they would have run to the UN to intervene, and Porkis would be enjoying their coffee on the peaks of Kargil till this day.

You're just behaving like one of those FHMs who, since they have been forced to criticise the UPA, want to drag the BJP down with it too.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 24 Dec 2008 23:26

Vikram_S wrote:brihaspati

if you read about nuclear war in military forum there is a primer and link. the largest devastation is immediate from attack (thermal/shock), surviving initial attack and fallout for next few days is most important. that is point about getting population out of harm way

Paki army is not rabid enough to bomb population centers with mega-bum (they like their scotch and plots) and is not tame enough to not use the mega-bum (if they have control over it). Expect conventional missile attacks on population centers and mega-bum attacks on their own territory against IA, if IA crosses the border.

I am afraid that this is proving to be Israel-Lebanon redux. We go in and beat the sh** out of them, they lob a few missiles at our population centers, a few thousand innocent SDREs die, the world gets shocked and we end the war. Since bakis are still standing, they claim great victory.

A war at this point serves baki needs very well they
1. Can blame the economic shambles on the war
2. Stop fighting the talibunnies and hunker down
3. Use war as a further tool to negotiate more baksheesh
4. Institutionalize army's role in administration and reverse the mushy backlash

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 24 Dec 2008 23:28

negi wrote:
Thanks but no thanks

Arrey baba that was when Terrorists were masquerading as Indian Mujahideen and were claiming that these attacks were in response to what happened in BARI and GODHRA , and btw for a record we on the forum would like to know what were their demands ?

This was not a hostage situation and hence no question of negotiations , they were hell bent on burning/blowing the Hotel and kill as many guests (however IMO they had limited ammo and with NSG and police already at the scene they might thought about the risk of running out of ammo for the gun fight).

All in all Mumbai attackers did not have any demands period, they had come here on a mission to kill and cause damage which they did. Their conversation with the media before getting captured meant for creating a smoke screen and showing to the world this a reaction to the alleged attrocities on the minority community .

first understand what i asked right now you are posting all this without reading what i asked

is there a policy about dealing with these pigs or is it just ad hoc. this is not about babri or godhra or whatever idiots claimed or media claimed.

rest of your response is not relevant, i saw events unfold all night and day and was talking to people seeing tv all the time, so i know as much/more/not less than you do

tomorrow there will be hostage situation or whatever. terrorist adapt. question is what is our policy. if nariman house terrorists did try to use media/common person to negotiate and hard measure was taken then i am saying it is good. and this measure need to be standard.

During the siege, a US Chabad official, Rabbi Levi Shemtov, talked with one of the terrorists, calling on Holtzberg's cell phone.[36] The FBI and other negotiation experts helped guide him through the process which included around five phone calls.[37][36] Having to find an Urdu speaker to speak with him, they were unable to directly speak to any of the hostages, but Shemtov did say he heard the voice of one woman screaming in English, "please help immediately."[36]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nariman_House
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/narim ... d/393841/2

so cool down, nobody is criticising sec force here, just asking whether india has finally learnt some hard lesson and made it stick

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 24 Dec 2008 23:35

lakshmic wrote:Paki army is not rabid enough to bomb population centers with mega-bum (they like their scotch and plots) and is not tame enough to not use the mega-bum (if they have control over it). Expect conventional missile attacks on population centers and mega-bum attacks on their own territory against IA, if IA crosses the border.

your answer fails KISS test (and i am last S in KISS not you, so no insult here) because if pak army does not have threat over india, india will go to war and would go to war in 1999 or 2001 itself but it did not.

even earlier pak has managed to convey it is unpredictable with nuclear response.

eg ABM development:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/30missile.htm

But Pakistan was considered unpredictable and, in 1996, the MoD asked its Scientific Advisor APJ Abdul Kalam [Images] whether India could quickly develop protection against an inc

and zia-ized Pak army is not same as pure RAPE army.

lakshmic wrote:I am afraid that this is proving to be Israel-Lebanon redux. We go in and beat the sh** out of them, they lob a few missiles at our population centers, a few thousand innocent SDREs die, the world gets shocked and we end the war. Since bakis are still standing, they claim great victory.

A war at this point serves baki needs very well they
1. Can blame the economic shambles on the war
2. Stop fighting the talibunnies and hunker down
3. Use war as a further tool to negotiate more baksheesh
4. Institutionalize army's role in administration and reverse the mushy backlash

i doubt we can go in and beat the sh** out of them because paki rightfully or wrongly have politician convinced they will nuke our population center. of course if IA gets orders they will devastateingly tear pakistan into small pieces but they will not be allowed because people in power are deterred.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 24 Dec 2008 23:40

Suicide Bombers for hire in Pakistan

I guess if ever RAW is going for covert ops again... this is the stuff we need to use

. But our pussy politicians wont do much... so its just vain hope!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Dec 2008 23:41

Vikram_S

if you have better idea i am all open to hear.....
my basic point is that one way or other we have to face the threat by pak and face reality
otherwise we are facing escalating attack with no end in sight

I agree that we have to face the threat :
(1) short term, moving or thinning of population density is not possible. I have participated in population moving exercises - almost no Indian city is fully equipped or trained to do this on emergency basis. This will need a couple of years of practice - however, if started right now, as regular part of safety exercises could provide the cover for such training and help build required infrastructure or even show the problems that can crop up in real event.

(2) there is little divergence of opinion about the need to remove the state machinery of TSP and bring the populations under Indian control. The debate is about preparation, tactics, and timing. Unless Pak is brought under full political and military control of India, the terrorist threat from Pak will never go. If the plan is not made for such an eventuality, with full preparation, the end product will be a bitter pill neither ejectable nor swalloable. I was in favour of using the threat of nuclear superiority but not actually using it keeping in mind the long term political necessities of winning over future "western provinces" of India populations and also keeping the area habitable and economically viable. I see war as not standing alone but an extension of politics.

We really do not have to be so bitter among ourselves. Let us try to arrive at consensus (but a dynamic and forward looking one!)

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 24 Dec 2008 23:46

milindc wrote:
Baljeet wrote: That is why I am not advocating Overt War. I am 100% in favor of covert war. Lets get on World Bank Board, IMF Board, Make our alliance with France, Spain, Britain, Italy such that in future when Mullahs come before our friends with begging bowl noose gets tightened slowly and surely. Lets put our covert assets in place, they should be well funded, well equipped. We don't have to give them equipment if we are smart (highly doubtful) we can use RDX, Explosives, Guns provided by Pakis, on Pakis. Why is it so hard to recruit some people in pakistan itself send them to lashkar camps get their weapons and training let them loose in pakistan.
..........

So Mr. CRamS professionals never get angry, angry man are never professionals. Since you have already shown yourself by resorting to personal attacks, I rest my case.
Baljeet,
You are claiming to be a professional yet seem to ignore the most important point in your calculation, the economic situation of Pakistan. War requires tremendous money and they will in-fact compete for same resources with us during war-time.
Though there might be stalemate during initial days, the tide will immediately turn once the paki resources are exhausted.

Millind
I have not forgotten that either. In case of overt war chinese and the kingdom will come through. It will be a god send opportunity for chinese they can check mate India by using their proxy and some money. In grand scheme of things $10-20 Billion is chump change to establish yourself as the alternative superpower and carve out your sphere of influence. This overt war will certainly make china the other power center. The most important factor in any war is fuel. Saudi can provide fuel free of cost for great cause of Muslim Ummah.
Lets not forget this war and the end result is not about mumbai attack or defanging the terrorist network but it will have a profound affect on the future of this nation called India. Is there a possibility that my analysis can be wrong and India may actually win this war decisively--it is a possibility (a remote possibility).

My question has been, Is this nation willing to pay the price needed and required to achieve the end result that is complete destruction of pakistan and dismemberment that means, a birth of few new nations called balochistan, Sind is absorbed into India minus the muslim population, FATA and NWFP into afghanistan, POK kashmir is liberated? My answer is big NO. We do not have the stomach, capability, resources for this endeavor. Indian population itself will become war weary, every Roy, Ghose, Karat, Antulay, BuKhari will join hands to bring the war to end while we are half way through. There is not historical evidence where this nation went to war for long, unimaginable period of time. We as a nation do not have the aptitude, mental strength, to stomach large amount of losses in men, material, high prices for food, fuel, bijli, sadak, paani, etc. Once the euphoria wears down, the same people who are on streets baying for revenge will be the one protesting war. What about our inherent corruption, we are masters of smelling opportunity to make money even in event of national crisis. How about all the traders who will be hoarding food, fuel and other essentials for higher profit margin.
Lets not fight a war for the sake of war, we should fight any and every war with clear objective, determination, mandate, resources. We should always clearly enunciate our war objective to our soldiers, citizens, and industry. Every one should speak in one voice, work toward one goal, with complete discipline, and laser sharp focus on objective. Given Indian facts there will never be complete discipline, never focus, forget about reaching goal. There is a reason why India as a nation has never attacked other nation, we never had the stomach, determination, ability to fight and win large scale wars.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 24 Dec 2008 23:54

brihaspiti wrote:I agree that we have to face the threat :
(1) short term, moving or thinning of population density is not possible. I have participated in population moving exercises - almost no Indian city is fully equipped or trained to do this on emergency basis. This will need a couple of years of practice - however, if started right now, as regular part of safety exercises could provide the cover for such training and help build required infrastructure or even show the problems that can crop up in real event.

this is also my point. short term it is not possible but if dedicated effort is put in .. couple of years or even five years, it has to be done, or some method to approach this in a logical manner.

(2) there is little divergence of opinion about the need to remove the state machinery of TSP and bring the populations under Indian control. The debate is about preparation, tactics, and timing. Unless Pak is brought under full political and military control of India, the terrorist threat from Pak will never go. If the plan is not made for such an eventuality, with full preparation, the end product will be a bitter pill neither ejectable nor swalloable. I was in favour of using the threat of nuclear superiority but not actually using it keeping in mind the long term political necessities of winning over future "western provinces" of India populations and also keeping the area habitable and economically viable. I see war as not standing alone but an extension of politics.

you are being unecessarily optimist sir. this same Govt was unwilling to realise the threat from TSP just some time back, so much that BRaman and other worthies are totally frustrated. read ajai sahni, g parthsarthy, maloy dhar blogs also. they are all at wits end dealing with present GOI impotence and unwillingness to understand TSP policy.

simply put nationalism equated with strong defence is not a consensus issue in india. TSP is regarded by some parties as extension of IM (an insult to IM for no reason) so political parties go soft.

We really do not have to be so bitter among ourselves. Let us try to arrive at consensus (but a dynamic and forward looking one!)

i disagree sir. bitterness and anger are human emotions and required when we are dying like dogs and still told to be patriotic and have "pride", as if these can compensate for useless govt. and terror deaths. what is state for, if it refuses to protect citizens while these netas go around with SPG.

if there are people who still will not wake up and realise reality then there is no option but to tell them they can live in own paradise but leave us to deal with reality. instead of false hopes about pride, unity, all this is useless. even at this time, this is being abused by antulay and javed akhtar types to push agenda (probe into karkare, ban bajrang dal..)

public anger works, otherwise these types will watch indians die like dogs and prevent any action unless TAJor TRIDENT is attacked. then it becomes "personal" and is too late

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 24 Dec 2008 23:55

I am still waiting for action from the anti Hindu Congressies!

Where is it?

<tapping foot>

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Dec 2008 00:42

Us is playing a complex game. One hand it finds evidence of TSp hand in the Mumbai attack and onthe other it urges restraint.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 25 Dec 2008 00:58

The Newshour Debate 'Pak reaction within minutes' Part 1

The Newshour Debate 'Pak reaction within minutes' Part 2

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 25 Dec 2008 01:02

ramana wrote:Us is playing a complex game. One hand it finds evidence of TSp hand in the Mumbai attack and onthe other it urges restraint.

It's Christmas season in US, but seems like US media has completely blocked the sabre-rattling from Pakis.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Dec 2008 01:04

We really do not have to be so bitter among ourselves. Let us try to arrive at consensus (but a dynamic and forward looking one!)
i disagree sir. bitterness and anger are human emotions and required when we are dying like dogs and still told to be patriotic and have "pride", as if these can compensate for useless govt. and terror deaths. what is state for, if it refuses to protect citizens while these netas go around with SPG.
if there are people who still will not wake up and realise reality then there is no option but to tell them they can live in own paradise but leave us to deal with reality. instead of false hopes about pride, unity, all this is useless. even at this time, this is being abused by antulay and javed akhtar types to push agenda (probe into karkare, ban bajrang dal..)
public anger works, otherwise these types will watch indians die like dogs and prevent any action unless TAJor TRIDENT is attacked. then it becomes "personal" and is too late

Dear Sir! I meant by "us" - we BRfites. I know anger first-hand - every street fight to make a pulp out of a "goon" or an "eve-teaser" or "stone throwing irate mobs" I was involved in was a mistake, and when I realized this I decided not to act immediately when I felt that "towering inferno" rising - it always led to wrong, and far less effective or punishing actions. Those I did in "coldness" were devastating.

Having said that I would still do what is needed to protect my family "instantaneously" - and "coldly". But do "they" think of all Indians as "my family"?

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 25 Dec 2008 01:34

Yet another article by G Parthasarathy..................I love this guy

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 500800.htm

Pakistan stalls, obfuscates and erases evidence

G. Parthasarathy

It is time India told its friends that they should reduce their dependence on Pakistan and hold out the threat of economic and military sanctions against it, if the latter continues to stonewall on dismantling the infrastructure of ISI-sponsored terrorism, says G. PARTHASARATHY.

In the five years I lived in Pakistan, a constant feature was the ever-present ISI minders who followed me wherever I went. Their surveillance was crude. On one occasion they seated themselves next to a table at which I was hosting Maleeha Lodhi, (later Pakistan’s Envoy in Washington) at the height of the Kargil conflict.

Nervous and rattled by the proximity of the ISI goons, Ms Lodhi even declined to accept from me a copy of the infamous Musharraf-Aziz conversation that had been taped by the R&AW during the Kargil conflict. It was, therefore, not difficult to spot the ISI goons swarming over the village of Faridkot to intimidate ordinary citizens and erase all evidence that the captured terrorist Mohammed Ajmal Imran ‘Kasab’ and his parents had lived there.

In urban centres ranging from Sialkot and Multan to Dera Ismail Khan, the ISI has spread out to erase evidence of the other terrorists being Pakistani nationals. Thus, despite professions of readiness to co-operate, Pakistan is erasing all evidence of its involvement in the carnage.

Sadly, the Manmohan Singh Government has bungled badly by stating there was no evidence of ISI involvement in the Mumbai carnage. At a recent public meeting in Washington, the former Commander-in-Chief of India’s Eastern Fleet, Vice-Admiral Premvir Das, explained the immense complexity of the operations undertaken by the hijackers who boarded a Pakistani ship in Karachi, hijacked an Indian fishing trawler, navigated using global positioning systems and transferred weapons, ammunition, explosives and an outboard motor in turbulent waters, into a small boat.

Admiral Das averred: “It is just not possible for ordinary jihadis, trained in camps in Muridhke, to do this. Only people with rigorous military training could have done what these people did”. In short, the entire commando style operation had the backing of elements from the Pakistan army and navy.
Inexplicable silence

Despite this, it is inexplicable why the Manmohan Singh Government does not publicly speak of circumstantial evidence of ISI/Pak military involvement.

New Delhi’s pusillanimity on this score has inevitably led to foreign leaders like Senator John Kerry giving the Pakistan military establishment a clean chit on the Mumbai carnage. While there is sympathy in western capitals for India after the Mumbai attack, western chanceries now appear to believe that India is acting like a supplicant in pleading for them to act against Pakistan.

Given the Western and particularly American reliance on Pakistan for logistical support in the war against the Taliban and Al Qaeda, the Americans now believe that expressions of sympathy and understanding alone will deter New Delhi from taking any action that adversely affects their operations in Afghanistan.

Sensing this, Pakistan regularly threatens them that it will move its troops to the Indian border unless they “restrain” India. Is it not, therefore, time for India to tell its friends that they should reduce their dependence on Pakistan and that they should hold out the threat of economic and military sanctions against Pakistan, if the latter continues to stonewall on dismantling the infrastructure of ISI sponsored terrorism?

Ever since the NATO Summit in Bucharest in April 2008, NATO officials have been seeking alternative routes bypassing Pakistan for supplying their forces in Afghanistan. During the NATO Summit, Russia agreed to facilitate a land transport corridor to Afghanistan. Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan have been approached for the same purpose and Azerbaijan and Georgia have been sounded out for a Caucasian corridor to Afghanistan through Turkmenistan, via the Caspian Sea.
Need for pressure

Such moves will reduce Western dependence on Pakistan and effectively undermine Pakistan’s ability to blackmail its American allies. Recent attacks on NATO supply convoys near Peshawar appear to be part of a calculated Pakistani effort to force the US to plead for more Pakistani military support.

India should now let it be known that it feels the US should not be deterred from imposing sanctions on Pakistan if it persists in its refusal to act against terrorism emanating from its soil and that the US should actively reduce its dependence on Pakistan for its operations in Afghanistan. Indian security will after all not be as seriously affected as American security interests if Pakistan chooses to move elements of its four divisions, now on its western borders, to its borders with India.

If Pakistan continues to blackmail the US with threats of pulling out troops from its western borders to its eastern borders, India can justifiably say that Pakistan’s threats will not deter it from to acting to protect its interests, if the US and others do not go beyond paying mere lip service to Indian forbearance.

There may be fears that this will lead to growing Talibanisation of Pakistan. But would a spread of Taliban control towards the capital Islamabad also not lead to the weakening of the Pakistan army, which is, after all, the lead player in sponsoring terrorism against both Afghanistan and India?

Further, can the Pakistan army afford to create a situation that would lead to NATO air-strikes deeper into Pakistani territory? In the present power structure of Pakistan, President Zardari and his Government play second fiddle to the army establishment. This will not change unless the army is isolated and forced to give up its favourite pastime of “bleeding” India.
Policy options

These are policy options that New Delhi must adopt and articulate before the Obama Administration assumes office. President-elect Barack Obama has, on more than one occasion, endorsed India’s right to “self-defence” The incoming Administration is also more open to ideas, like widening the dialogue on Afghanistan by bringing in not only the country’s Central Asian neighbours but also Russia, Iran and India.

It is true that China which, in a way, was responsible for the Mumbai carnage by blocking moves in the UN Security Council to get the Jamat-ud-Dawa declared a terrorist organisation will continue to stand by its “all-weather friend” Pakistan. But once the US and its NATO allies decide to call Pakistan’s bluff, work on alternative supply routes to Afghanistan and threaten Pakistan with sanctions if it does not dismantle the infrastructure of ISI-sponsored terrorism, Pakistan and China will be compelled to comply with the demands of the international community.

The leverage that India has to make the US and its NATO allies act on these lines lies is its ability to compel the Pakistan army to move from its western to its eastern borders, should it chose to do so.

In dealing with Pakistan, we would be well-advised to take note of the analysis by Canadian academic Salim Mansur, whose family was almost wiped out by Pakistani soldiers in Bangladesh in 1971.

Mansur notes that the army-dominated establishment in Pakistan is “ideologically anti-Hindu and anti-Semitic” He adds: “The attack on Mumbai could not have been launched without large-scale planning and logistics support, and these could not have been provided without a secure base of operations in the knowledge of the Pakistani authorities”.

One hopes that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, who has shed many a tear over Pakistan being a “victim of terrorism” and still fights shy of speaking of ISI involvement in the Mumbai carnage, will take note of Mansur’s words.
(The author is a former High Commissioner to Pakistan. [email protected])

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 25 Dec 2008 01:53

My sources in Nai Delhi are saying that all the 122 envoys called into capital to a meeting by Man Mohan Squeek agreed with PM that not a pipsqueek of response should be offered to TSP. The PM was in pain and labored on the aspects of No War is costlier than No War. He stood by his conviction that peace process should be strengthed and more economic incentives were needed for TSP for a war free zone. Few Bombay lives and NSG lives are a small price to pay.

The envoys unanimously agrred with PM and sough the blessings of Sonia G for future prospects. As usual the meeting ended on high note of samosa biscoot, there were a few murmurs heard that there was no Italian wine

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 25 Dec 2008 02:09

John Snow wrote:My sources in Nai Delhi ... wine

Meanwhile,

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/25i ... e-blast.ht

"The accused was identified as Munir alias Satish Anand Shukla, a resident of Kolkata," TV channels quoted police sources as saying. Some of the reports claimed that the arrested had earlier worked with the Indian High Commission in London.

Some of these "envoys" would do well to grow a spine.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 25 Dec 2008 02:16

Chandragupta wrote:Think twice before you talk about ABV. He had his bad moments, but he was thousand times a leader any one in Kaangress can ever be. You talk about his debacle in Lahore, but don't forget that we did rape the Pigs in Kargil. If Rajmata & Sardar Ji was in power, they would have run to the UN to intervene, and Porkis would be enjoying their coffee on the peaks of Kargil till this day.

You're just behaving like one of those FHMs who, since they have been forced to criticise the UPA, want to drag the BJP down with it too.

Problem is that you cannot understand written english. That is why you came up with such a post. Read the posts carefully and understand the written words.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 25 Dec 2008 02:16

ramana wrote:Us is playing a complex game. One hand it finds evidence of TSp hand in the Mumbai attack and onthe other it urges restraint.

What evidence Ramana? If we can intercept calls between TSP Corps Commanders, then think of what the US knows. They can make clinching evidence public today if they want to.

It is a political decision to not blame ISI/TSPA that they forced on MMS. Whether it was due to Indian response to flattery/sweet talk (likely) or an explicit quid-pro-quo for the nuclear deal (less likely) we will not know anytime soon.

We are all alone in this war. US will push the bus to the point it goes in the direction they want to, but they will either let it go or even steer it away after that point.

As GPartha says - we need to work to make sure that TSPA's bluff is called - while avoiding war now as much as possible. For India, nothing is better than a rapid and increasing Talibanization of TSP, which would erode the "moderate" facade of TSPA.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 25 Dec 2008 02:35

"avoiding war as much as possible" boss...all these massive chai biscoot diplomatic games may be enough to make for public sympathy but as indian citizen i want some retaliation so that for next 1-2 years at least there is some peace before cycle begins again.

one way or other pakistan army is taliban. makes no difference what world thinks.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 25 Dec 2008 02:45

Rangudu wrote: while avoiding war now as much as possible.

Why Paki Army so desperate for war NOW ? They are trying every thing but directly attack India. As Ramana stated earlier, they might just launch preemptive strikes claiming that India was going to strike.
The obvious points are unity, troop movements from west.
What bothers me is that all this is happening very close to POTUS transition.

Vikram_S, notice 'now' in rangudu's comments.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Dec 2008 02:49

Rangudu wrote:
ramana wrote:Ussoon.

We are all alone in this war. US will push the bus to the point it goes in the direction they want to, but they will either let it go or even steer it away after that point.

As GPartha says - we need to work to make sure that TSPA's bluff is called - while avoiding war now as much as possible. For India, nothing is better than a rapid and increasing Talibanization of TSP, which would erode the "moderate" facade of TSPA.

Parathasarthy knows Bakasurstani society first hand .
India should to war only when She is ready to sustain fight alone for long time and overt preparation must be made for strategic retaliation against any power which comes to help Bakasurstan . If we cannot do it then its better to use other means to punish the Killgion practioners and their assets in India itself.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 25 Dec 2008 02:54

milindc,

TSPA has some kind of set up and game plan ready so that it can "declare victory" and threaten nukes. It could be that they have people inside our land to sabotage or blow up key military facilities, ready to sink a ship etc. The longer time goes, the likelier it is that those plans will be found out. They too don't want a full scale war, they just want India to start one so that they can execute their playbook and then declare "victory." It could be that they have a submarine in the Bay of Bengal, for instance.

Plus, they know that it will be 2-3 months before any alternative Afghan supply line opens and the Bush-Obama transition has left US with a big vacuum so their leverage with the US is at its highest point now.

We need to take revenge on our own schedule.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 25 Dec 2008 03:06

Salim Mansur's columns are usually worth reading in full. No Islamic chip on the shoulder here.

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/colum ... 1-sun.html