Indian Response to Terrorism

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Dec 2008 07:45

like MARCOS asking for written instructions and indeminity from any situation

well if never know, if things head south, politicians and HR activists
are quick to pounce and find scapegoats.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 26 Dec 2008 07:47

John Snow, rest

do not underestimate babus. those claims about MARCOS and Army are also babu attempt to downplay Army Navy role.

it is because there is now wide spread support in india and even urban elite for ARMY NAVY and military services.

all that written claim stuff is bullsh*t per what is revealed. navy held a conference where they revealed reality and also timeline.

why is NSG spared? it is spared because it comes under MHA and is owned by babu and led by IPS officer

in military forum there is report by ASPUAR which says that journalist were asked not to write about ARMY NAVY role in Mumbai but only about NSG and not to mention issue of officer deputation to NSG

you can see how shameless and brazen babu giri is in india

read the shishir article carefully and you will see from which side of babu-military fence the "source" was.

it is all a joke to expect these people to admit faults.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Dec 2008 08:06

Too many Indians lickers of US backside.

The government merely does what the people do.

If an American thinks that Indian Muslims are going to rise up and destroy their own India they are either stupid or they are getting their inputs about Indian Muslims from suspect sources.

You can call Indian Muslims "traitors", "Closet Pakistanis" "Jihadis, "ZamZam cola drinkers", whatever. But they are not stupid. Any Muslim who lives in india has to live in India. And even if this Indian Muslim believes that his ancestors ruled India he understands that if he wants to rule India his best chance is by being here in India and not by being in Pakistan or in America.

It is wrong to believe that Indian are united about American policy. American policy is a a self serving policy that has not helped India and an American saying that Indian Muslims will revolt is a mistake. And Indian non Muslims who imagine that Non Muslims are going to rise up in revolt against Indian Muslims are equally mistaken and fall well within the US back-licking brigade.

A whole lot of Indian Muslims do not care for the US despite its help and support for Pakistan. Shouldn't that be ringing some bells in Indian minds about where India Muslim loyalties lie? Or does everyone only hear American bells?

While kicking Pakistan, India really needs to shove a little rod up American backside for the trouble they have helped create and propagate in India - with sweet words and egregious warnings on the side. India Muslims are not going to revolt to support Pakistan or fulfil American policy. And neither are anyone else going to do that.

Recall that if Indians have been "too nice" to Pakistan by maintaining friendly relations we have literally been licking US backside for decades even as the US has armed and funded Pakistan

Oh we who have such large cojones when we speak of Pakistan, do we have even small ones to question the great US of A?

RajaJi · Post by **RajaJi** » 26 Dec 2008 08:08

So, basically with all these corrupt babus and politicians at the helm, it seems like there is no hope for India, the future seems bleak to say the least. God Bless India!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Dec 2008 08:09

RajaJi wrote:So, basically with all these corrupt babus and politicians at the helm, it seems like there is no hope for India, the future seems bleak to say the least. God Bless India!

Asking God to bless India is fine - as long as the Indian people do not imagine that the US means good for India and imagining that the US will bless India.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Dec 2008 08:19

RajaJi wrote:So, basically with all these corrupt babus and politicians at the helm, it seems like there is no hope for India, the future seems bleak to say the least. God Bless India!

I would add the business community too.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 26 Dec 2008 08:19

rajaji

pakistanis are ch*tiyas. they are pushing useless common man and even selfish elite in india to say

pakistan delenda est

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthago_delenda_est

3-4 more attacks on elite coffee shop target and even burkha dutt will start screaming for war to boost TRP.

if this attitude comes then even these third rate babus and 4th rate politicians will change.

problem is of course how many of common indian dogs (common indian citizen) will die like dogs in india before politician-babu nexus defend us. (to save own skin)

and these useless babus and politician will be ZERO prepared for all out war so more indians will die like dogs but pakistan will be torn into tiny piece

this does not make me happy. i want pakistan to burn and turn away from india, and this is doable at low cost but this useless babu-GOI- UPA nexus is third rate and will not do it.

they will sit and spin and write articles and attend seminar and finally wipe pakistan off map at higher cost.

but still pakis are stupid idiot for provoking india in such manner to final war.

@ shiv

india run to US because indian babus and indian GOI is so useless and corrupt that it has not prepared for the actual scenario.

when day to day work is attending weddings (Maha police) and parties (NSA) or chasing hindu terror for elections (ATS) where is the time to develop national security strategy?

after mumbai, bangalore, ahmedabad attacks what was great measure undertaken to prevent next series of attack?

these people knew na that there are going to be more such things!!!

but they did NOTHING

so even after this attack NOTHING is being done, chidambaram is sending 5th standard ideas and letters to state Govts.

there is no review of NSA, RAW,IB to deter pakistan by hitting in Pakistan.

that is why GOI run to US and lick US back(side) because that means GOI does not have to do ANYTHING but US will save indian back(side)

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 26 Dec 2008 08:35

It seems to me BRF is divided like, majority of members want war, few don't want war at this time, fewer dont want war. I have stated my reasons for not wanting war at this time, one reason I left out is that our Prime Minister is acts and look like a stray dog who got his nuts cutoff. There is not a single leader across the spectrum who has given this nation a idea, a leadership at this juncture. They are all busy preparing for next election with the exception of Bhangi Leader Mayawati who is getting people killed because some Rishwat Khor Engineer will not share his wealth for her birthday party.

RajaJi · Post by **RajaJi** » 26 Dec 2008 08:40

I don't trust the amerikhans one bit, they will do anything for their own personal gain, they are friends of no one. I'm not into conspiracy theories etc., but from alot of the stuff i've read online and alot of evidence that is presented by scholars, intellectuals, etc., most of whom are amerikhans, and also just from my own observation and my own intellect, even though i'm no expert in these things, those damn buildings couldn't have fallen like that from airplane hits, and what about building number 7? That's an obvious demolition, and the fact that it was announced as having been come down on bbc when it was still standing in the background of the news broadcast. lol! So, yeah, instead of asking U.S. of help we need to be warry of them. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Personally, I don't even like the comparison of the Mumbai attacks to 9/11. The Mumbai attacks were clearly orchesterated by elements or the whole of porkistani machinery while, there are alot of murky things about 9/11, even most amerikhans believe it was an inside job. The rabbit hole goes much deeper then what it seems.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 26 Dec 2008 08:41

baljeet

on BRF one thing is common, we all want revenge, whether by open war or covert strike, revenge has to be there to prevent more attacks. make pakistan pay.

rajaji

all those guys are idiot

the same fellows who say 9/11 is inside job also say 26/11 is hindu zionist
they can all go to...

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 26 Dec 2008 08:45

NRao wrote:
RajaJi wrote:So, basically with all these corrupt babus and politicians at the helm, it seems like there is no hope for India, the future seems bleak to say the least. God Bless India!
I would add the business community too.

you are absolutely correct.

new business community being rich and elite did not care 1 moment for previous attack on ordinary indians
if 26/11 had not happened these people would not wake up. they are living new york, london lifestyle in india.

many top business types are filthy rich and move in fancy socialist left groups and think any comment on jehad, maoism is communal, very bad.

this is group to which burkha dutt and ghose of CNN IBN preach

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 26 Dec 2008 08:50

Too many rakshaks are getting an ulcer over GoI inaction. I propose to use the Adminullah Rahul's cricket approach often seen on Nukkad dhaga. Let us all pray together.

India will not fight Pakistan and Pakistan will prevail.

munna · Post by **munna** » 26 Dec 2008 08:55

^^^Yes Rahulam Uvach. Pakis have owned MMS/Ulta Pulta Alliance.

RajaJi · Post by **RajaJi** » 26 Dec 2008 08:57

Vikram_S wrote:baljeet

on BRF one thing is common, we all want revenge, whether by open war or covert strike, revenge has to be there to prevent more attacks. make pakistan pay.

rajaji

all those guys are idiot

the same fellows who say 9/11 is inside job also say 26/11 is hindu zionist
they can all go to...

I know most of the same fellows are saying that 26/11 is a inside job just like 9/11 was, and i'm not one to believe something easily, and if the amerikhans want to use 9/11 or some other terror attack as an excuse to blow up islamic countries the better, I have no sympathy of islamic states. However, one thing is for sure, there are some things that just cannot be overlooked about 9/11. I'm not to be brainwashed easily but there are some hard facts that just can't be easily swept under the rug. Alot of people think there was more to it then airplaines hitting the towers that brought them down in a demolition like manner.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 26 Dec 2008 08:57

Vikram_S wrote:baljeet
on BRF one thing is common, we all want revenge, whether by open war or covert strike, revenge has to be there to prevent more attacks. make pakistan pay.

Vikram
You got it little bit wrong my brother. Revenge does not have to be to prevent more attacks, revenge we must have for all the innocent lives lost because of the mere existence of nation called pakistan. We take revenge to honor the bravery of Satbir singh bus driver who lost a leg and eye when he threw out the bombs from bus he was driving in Delhi and saved Indian Lives. We take revenge because Saurabh Kalia and his jawans of 9th Jat Regiment were barbarically murdered, etc etc.
We do not take revenge to prevent more attacks. We go to war when we are fully prepared, have all resources, have leadership, have men who will fight, nation willing to sacrifice to exist. We take revenge and settle the score with our enemy once for all such that enemy does not exist. Remember at mahabharat, war did not end until Duryodhan was killed and left to die in agnoy and pain. We must destroy pakistan and when it is on the death bed, we should prevent anyone else from providing any kind of medication to ease their death. They must die in same agony as Saurabh kalia and his men died. Those pictures will never be made public but those who have seen them, have puked in disgust. We must do the same to every pakistani what was done to Saurabh and his men.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 26 Dec 2008 08:58

The point really is that the pakis have neatly turned the tables on us. It is they who are forcing a war on us but making it look like it is the other way around. We have given them this advantage by resorting to long-winded bombast instead of action and they have actually drawn some sympathy. Look at the Interpol b@stard's comments in Isloo. I expect a paki air attack at anytime, leaving GoI to come up with an ill thought-out response which will almost certainly leave us worse off than before. That is because we have never thought this problem through to its logical conclusion and have no long-term solutions in mind. As for pakis, the heat will be taken off their terror infrastructure, all the actors--jihadis, army, civilians--will have been given a fig leaf to become "united against bully India" and the saudis will pump in more oxygen.

In my memory, never have so many ducks been aligned in a row to give us blanket global support to take action and solve a festering disease but we are p!ssing it away and making asses of ourselves. Nothing short of killing the lead actors both in pak and BD will do to redeem ourselves and send the message that there will be payback from now on. This is a golden opportunity to even solve Cashmere once for all in our favour with occupation and re-unification. But that is asking a bit much from the current leadership and, I am sorry to say, even the Indian voters themselves. We are clueless and unprepared as a people and have no idea how to change that condition or that it needs changing.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 26 Dec 2008 08:59

The deadline was set to buy time for Indian Forces to be in defensive position, so no further terror attacks takes place immediately. The deadline was for India and not for Bakis. The formulations are done to keep any further escalation and attack from bakis to be pushed far out into future (read till elections).

"Nobody wants war" is code word for "please do not escalate any further" an appeal to the baki establishment, else will force India to act. This is a nightmarish proposition for the dispensation to deal with, because acting would mean making decisions, setting direction, agenda and goals.

So basically, the gamble is on goodwill of Bakis with the oversight of chinkils and other interested parties, to rope in bakis from pushing it further. The chances are that gamble will payoff and the govt. will ride the storm to repeat the same circus with next set of people in both the houses.

With so much sannata and prevarication to deal with a piddly baki state, what exactly is the best course if lizard actually comes calling? Maybe me thinks it is time for aam admi to memorize the "little red book" and learn chanting "chini-india bhai bhai", which may save the day because "nobody can make us bend" type of statements will not work with lizard.

Well there is no need for any response at all. Because we have "requested" "issued statements" and even "talked about resilience of people from terror" as our responses. That is cool. The train has left the station for response and/or revenge.

What is needed is not response, but a complete realization of the problem called bakistan and proactive steps to eradicate it. Whether Bakis stop terror or not is no longer the concern. Fighting terror is going to be side show. The main concern is: does India wish to survive? if yes, then eradicate the artificial existence of something called as Bakistan. If not, then one can start collating all the high sounding statements which can be automated everytime something inconvenient as a terror strikes.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Dec 2008 09:03

I don't trust the amerikhans one bit, they will do anything for their own personal gain, they are friends of no one.

Interesting.

IIRC, it was Lt. Gen. (ret) Hamid Gul that wanted India and Pakistan to unite and toss out the U.S from the region and as I recall he then wanted Indo-Pak to go back to essentially fighting each other again (after tossing out the U.S).

Innovation on the fly.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Dec 2008 09:05

MMS needs ALL of those *stans, specially Pakistan. How else can he get his boat loads of Uranium ore to India?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 26 Dec 2008 09:08

RajaJi wrote: Alot of people think there was more to it then airplaines hitting the towers that brought them down in a demolition like manner.

RajaJi, these "people" are all the wrong kind. Let me assure you that the collapse of the towers was unexpected by everyone but easily explained from a structural engineering point of view. Please don't try to peddle paki stories or exonerate the Islamic terror machine here on BR. If you believe that then you also should believe that Kasab was a Hindu because of the red wrist band.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 26 Dec 2008 09:25

I'm not to be brainwashed easily but there are some hard facts that just can't be easily swept under the rug. Alot of people think there was more to it then airplaines hitting the towers that brought them down in a demolition like manner.

AllahoAkbar! You have made my din, birather!

Little known fact: Twin Towers actually never existed. They were just apparitions like an Amitabh Bacchan Double Act: Tall but flat at the top.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 26 Dec 2008 09:59

A whole lot of Indian Muslims do not care for the US despite its help and support for Pakistan. Shouldn't that be ringing some bells in Indian minds about where India Muslim loyalties lie? Or does everyone only hear American bells?

There is an unconditional sympathy towards America among Hindus of India even though there is no justification for it.

However, muslims of India have very hardline approach towards America. Muslims of India have resentment towards America for following reasons:
- America's staunch support for Israel
- Rape and murder of muslims in Iraq
- Virtual monopoly of muslim properties (oil money) in Middle East
- Subjugation of muslims in gulf states through American propped up dictators
- And many more

It will be a mistake for American policy makers to bet their money on a horse called, Indian Muslim. Keep in mind, majority of Indian muslims oppose close Indo - US ties but they went along with GOI's so called strategic partnership with U.S. just like many other Indian communities that were opposed to it but kept quiet in the name of national interest.

Americans think they are playing some sort of divide and rule great game but I think they are simply out of touch with the ground realities.

RajaJi · Post by **RajaJi** » 26 Dec 2008 10:00

Victor wrote:
RajaJi wrote: Alot of people think there was more to it then airplaines hitting the towers that brought them down in a demolition like manner.
RajaJi, these "people" are all the wrong kind. Let me assure you that the collapse of the towers was unexpected by everyone but easily explained from a structural engineering point of view. Please don't try to peddle paki stories or exonerate the Islamic terror machine here on BR. If you believe that then you also should believe that Kasab was a Hindu because of the red wrist band.

I'm not trying to peddle anything, and as i've said that it is not my perception about these events but of the local populace. It's just that here in NA (North America) alot of white folks and I mean quiet a few believe in these conspiracy theories as well, even on the internet, one can't help but come across, such theories which are mostly peddled by white amerikhans. The first time I heard such theories from a puki mouthpiece was that zaid hamid dude, and that hamid gul dude on youtube and that was just recently after the mumbai attacks and i was really disgusted when they were roping in Hindus into all these theories, calling Hindus, zionists and what not. Obviously the porkis are using these conspiracy theories to their own advantage. But to be truthful i initially didn't hear of these conspiracy theories from muslims or pukistanis but mostly americans and canadians, predominently white folks, alot of it is posted on the internet, and then you hear co workers, etc., talk about such things as well. And these conspiracy nuts are not only talking about the 9/11 theories but there are a host of other things they talk about that thier own government is doing to enslave them even more. Things like putting fluoride in the water supply, chemtrails, cancer viruses being put into vaccines etc., there is a big movement of people here in the west who believe in these things for real. I'm just an observer, i really don't know how much truth there is to such stories.

However, I have heard from many fellow Indians talk about how most of the terrorism in India and the world is covertly being sponsored by the U.S. etc., and their motive behind such acts is to destabilize other nations so they don't reach superpower status, etc., etc., Isn't it a fact that most of these so called jihadis were funded by the states with weapons and money when they were fighting USSR forces in afghanistan? Wasn't there a recent Tom Hanks movie which shows how the amerikhans helped the jihadi elements within pukistan take over afganishtan, i think it was called Charlie Wilson's War? There are many other similar occurances in hisotry which point to this also, that's why i was saying that we Indians shouldn't blindly trust the U.S. and it's a shame when Indian PM and Indian politicians look towards U.S. to solve our problems like the Mumbai attacks instead of taking stern action agains these pigs. Also, if i remember correctly it was here in these forums that I had read something aobut how the FBI had lost all evidence given to it by the Indian investigators of the 1993 bomb blasts? Do, amerkhans share evidence with India of what happened on 9/11? NO! Do they ask others permission when they are going to attack Iraq or Afganistan? So, why does India look at them for help like some helpless lost child when such attacks happen on Indian soil? As an Indian i'm hurt when I see all these things happening, i'm sure others feel the same way too. Why does India need the green light from the U.S. to attack porkistan? We have enough evidence that the terrorist attacks in India are being orchestrated by porkis, and we are not some small country, we have a huge army and air force, it's time we need to show some muscle and kick some porki ass instead of looking at western nations to bandage our wounds. sab western nations tamashbeen hain sale.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 26 Dec 2008 10:27

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote: The former top official in the Jimmy Carter Administration, who has been consulted by Obama on security matters, also pointed out the pathetic state of Muslims in India as a factor contributing to tension-ridden South Asian scenario.

“And, also it is related to the fact that great many Muslims in India are very underprivileged and don’t have a share of the sort of Indian development growth and all of that. So there is a lot of residual resentment among the 140 or so million Muslims in India.”

It is completely stupid for the US to imagine that Indian Muslims are going to fck themselves and their prosperity by screwing the only country they have and be very happy and supportive of America - whom they know has played a duplicitous game.

The US will need to wake up and smell the coffee. If Indian Hindu have a strange slavish lovey-dovey sympathy for America - India remains a democracy and the voice of many Indian Muslims and others will show out in indian policy. India is hardly likely to commit suicide just because Americans think Indian Muslims will start a civil war. How phenomenally stupid.

Yes, it is completely stupid, and to a large extent this perception exists because the Americans don't do their homework. They have no idea what a Muslim in Malleshwaram or Bandra or Chandni Chowk thinks of his country. They go by the posturings of people like CAIR and the Indo-American Muslim Federation and those types of organizations.

The trouble with getting too cosy with the Nussbaums and FOIL/FOSAs, supporting them in their Arundirty Roy lecture tours and anti-Narendra Modi campaigns, is that sooner or later you will start to buy into the familiar trills of their propaganda... and consume such drivel in preference to the facts on the distant ground. The Americans will find this out to their peril.

What's more, among all Americans we're referring to the views of Zbignew Brzezinski... the cretin directly responsible for spawning and nurturing the jihadi forces arrayed against Western and Israeli interests today. He couldn't see beyond his left ball when it came to devising strategies against Communism during the Cold War; why should we expect him to be anything but hopelessly myopic when it comes to his pronouncements on the "Moslems of India" today?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Dec 2008 10:41

Singha wrote:like MARCOS asking for written instructions and indeminity from any situation

well if never know, if things head south, politicians and HR activists
are quick to pounce and find scapegoats.

Singha ji,
The MARCOS were justified.
If they were to shoot dead someone on the mistaken assumption of a bureaucrat and get vilified by "human" rights activists of the roy and setalvad variety for murder, no one is going to help them out. Said bureaucrats have long perfected the art of quietly melting into the shadows to be protected by their own. Demonizing the forces in kashmir and the northeast by the DDM has left them vary and confused.
Much as I deplore the attitude of the MARCOS, we have a situation where the forces have not seen action for decades. This breeds a certain bureaucratic and somnolent mindset. The can do sprit is missing.
Under the current political milieu and mindset of the politicos and bureaucrats, the forces are seen as just an extension of the police. They get called in to rescue kids trapped in borewells. Such wanton misuse of highly trained forces leads to a degradation of their perception in the public eye. The forces themselves lose self esteem and motivation.
You cannot expect a junior level officer to jump out of his pjs, mobilize his men, grab his MP5 and hightail it to the Taj and commence battle with adversaries unknown. Even to open the armory and draw weapons requires all sorts of explanations and written authorizations. Boards of inquiry loom large at every corner. Blossoming careers have ended abruptly for less.
What the **** was the Chief Secretary doing? AN Roy was of course shampooing and blow drying his golden locks as he is wont to do every night. It was all the poor lower level cops that were running around as the initial read was that it was a gang war. They paid a very heavy price for lack of firm direction.
The soured civil military relationship, who's the king of the castle and mines bigger than yours syndrome has resulted in an unmitigated disaster of epic proportions. The concepts of senior service, teeth and tail etc is non existent among the IAS when they deal with any such situations. They are used to being fawned upon, their every word received as god given, while laughing all the way to the bank.
This situation does not obtain in the UK upon which model we have based our systems. This cataclysmic degradation is to be laid squarely at the door of the IAS commencing from 1947. They were constantly wetting their pants in those days at the (non existent) threat of a military takeover. They still wet their pants from sheer force of habit.
The situation is exactly what the IAS and the politicos set out to reinforce in the sixth CPC when they attempted to fiddle with the relative parities of forces vis-a vis their civilian counter parts. Probably still hallucinating about an imminent military takeover that's long coming from 1947.
They seem to have received a gigantic rocket up their nether regions for their misguided efforts. Hope the janta vote with their boots this time around.
Soldiers will think twice before they go out and sacrifice their all just because some incompetent IAS jaffo says so, especially when he takes good care to say so from a safe distance.

RajaJi · Post by **RajaJi** » 26 Dec 2008 10:46

Baljeet wrote:
Vikram_S wrote:baljeet
on BRF one thing is common, we all want revenge, whether by open war or covert strike, revenge has to be there to prevent more attacks. make pakistan pay.
Vikram
You got it little bit wrong my brother. Revenge does not have to be to prevent more attacks, revenge we must have for all the innocent lives lost because of the mere existence of nation called pakistan. We take revenge to honor the bravery of Satbir singh bus driver who lost a leg and eye when he threw out the bombs from bus he was driving in Delhi and saved Indian Lives. We take revenge because Saurabh Kalia and his jawans of 9th Jat Regiment were barbarically murdered, etc etc.
We do not take revenge to prevent more attacks. We go to war when we are fully prepared, have all resources, have leadership, have men who will fight, nation willing to sacrifice to exist. We take revenge and settle the score with our enemy once for all such that enemy does not exist. Remember at mahabharat, war did not end until Duryodhan was killed and left to die in agnoy and pain. We must destroy pakistan and when it is on the death bed, we should prevent anyone else from providing any kind of medication to ease their death. They must die in same agony as Saurabh kalia and his men died. Those pictures will never be made public but those who have seen them, have puked in disgust. We must do the same to every pakistani what was done to Saurabh and his men.

denigrating a community in general terms is not acceptable on BRF.
do understand this.
Rahul.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Dec 2008 11:00

Rudradev wrote:
shiv wrote:
It is completely stupid for the US to imagine that Indian Muslims are going to fck themselves and their prosperity by screwing the only country they have and be very happy and supportive of America - whom they know has played a duplicitous game.

The US will need to wake up and smell the coffee. If Indian Hindu have a strange slavish lovey-dovey sympathy for America - India remains a democracy and the voice of many Indian Muslims and others will show out in indian policy. India is hardly likely to commit suicide just because Americans think Indian Muslims will start a civil war. How phenomenally stupid.
Yes, it is completely stupid, and to a large extent this perception exists because the Americans don't do their homework. They have no idea what a Muslim in Malleshwaram or Bandra or Chandni Chowk thinks of his country. They go by the posturings of people like CAIR and the Indo-American Muslim Federation and those types of organizations.

The trouble with getting too cosy with the Nussbaums and FOIL/FOSAs, supporting them in their Arundirty Roy lecture tours and anti-Narendra Modi campaigns, is that sooner or later you will start to buy into the familiar trills of their propaganda... and consume such drivel in preference to the facts on the distant ground. The Americans will find this out to their peril.

What's more, among all Americans we're referring to the views of Zbignew Brzezinski... the cretin directly responsible for spawning and nurturing the jihadi forces arrayed against Western and Israeli interests today. He couldn't see beyond his left ball when it came to devising strategies against Communism during the Cold War; why should we expect him to be anything but hopelessly myopic when it comes to his pronouncements on the "Moslems of India" today?

Why is no one talking of the pathetic conditions of muslims in pukistan? or the world over?
Its much worse than those in India.
Check out the queues for the visa section in any amerki consulate. Why so many muslims? If they hate the amrekis all that much what the fck are they doing in such queues? Long route to mecca?
Perception and practice are very different for the "warriors"

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Dec 2008 11:07

Aaj Tak had a whole segment in their Vishesh half hour on the Talibanization of the TSP Army. They made the connections that Shiv is making about how the Pakiban and ISI and Kiyani are all mile jhule. Question is English language media hasnt woken up yet.

iI think the forecasted outing of the fundoos in TSP Army is occuring earlier than forecast. And looks like the fundoos are on the ascendent.

Maybe time to revisit POK tests.

RajaJi · Post by **RajaJi** » 26 Dec 2008 11:09

irrelevant stuff deleted by admin

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 26 Dec 2008 11:10

shiv wrote: While kicking Pakistan, India really needs to shove a little rod up American backside for the trouble they have helped create and propagate in India - with sweet words and egregious warnings on the side. India Muslims are not going to revolt to support Pakistan or fulfil American policy. And neither are anyone else going to do that.

Recall that if Indians have been "too nice" to Pakistan by maintaining friendly relations we have literally been licking US backside for decades even as the US has armed and funded Pakistan

Oh we who have such large cojones when we speak of Pakistan, do we have even small ones to question the great US of A?

The real danger posed by the Americans is in Kashmir. Expect the Obama administration to come at us with guns blazing on that score, no sooner than the American economy has shown its first signs of stabilizing.

Here's what many of us tend to overlook. It's very common for NRIs, especially US-based NRIs like many people on this forum, to subscribe to a certain smug truism regarding America and the Paki snake it nurtured at its breast for decades.

We say, ah-ha, see how the Americans have been played for fools by the double-dealing Pakistan army! See how the terrorism emanating from Pakistan finally came around to hurt the Americans themselves! See, now the Americans will have to admit that supporting an Islamist military dictatorship against India (a secular democracy and "natural ally" of the West) was the wrong thing to do!

Even as we prepare ourselves to embrace our prodigal American allies with all-forgiving hugs, the fact is that we're only 2/3rds of the way correct in making that assumption. Yes, the Americans are only now beginning to realize that they have been on the receiving end of a Hudaibiya scam by the Pakis, ever since the Global War on Terror began. And they are only now responding to the scamsters by insisting on predator strikes, SF missions across the Durand line and so on.

And yes, the terrorism emanating from Pakistan did come around to hurt the Americans also, most spectacularly on 9/11/2001 of course, but for the better part of a decade in a number of other ways.

However, we're dead wrong if we think the Americans have learned some sort of "Dharmic Lesson" or Hitopadesha from all this.

Even if the US finally decides to destroy or break up Pakistan as a means to victory in its Afghan conflict, we'd be sadly mistaken to believe that such an action heralded the abandonment of US policies aimed at containing India through the manipulation of Islamism.

Because the US doesn't think it was a bad idea to play a "Moslem State" against India at all. It served them very well for many decades to do so. Pakistan just happened to be an instance of the experiment that began to go wrong, for reasons unrelated to India, sometime around 1988. Why should we expect the Americans to conclude from the specific failure of Pakistan, that the principles behind the experiment were themselves flawed?

No: in fact, if it becomes imperative for the Americans to destroy Pakistan, they will be all the more eager to carve off another slice of Hindoo land to serve that dual purpose... a Muslim rentier state providing unfettered strategic access to Central Asia, which can also be leveraged for the containment of India whenever necessary.

I believe the Americans will definitely attempt to partition our country once more, in pursuit of the same geopolitical advantages that the British reaped by partitioning us 60 years ago; they will try to break off another piece to replace the utility of the one broken off in 1947, which became gangrenous and failed; and they will do it along religious lines once again, so that Islamism remains a useful nemesis of the Indian union, both within its borders and from outside.

Having achieved an independent Islamic Republic of J&K, the Americans would have no difficulty maintaining access to it. The successor states of Pakistan will be falling over each other to provide a corridor from Karachi through rump-Pakjab, in exchange for American patronage and aid.

Beware. Maybe not all American thinkers have a second partition of India in mind, but you can be sure that people like Brzezinski do... and very likely the incoming SOS Hillary Clinton as well. We all remember Madeleine Albright's autobiography, in the preface of which Bill Clinton ascribed the Chittisinghpora massacre of 36 Sikhs to the "Indian Army". We've all been seeing renewed cartographic aggression against Indian territory on every single Democrat-friendly Western media outlet, from CNN to BBC to MSNBC.

We've also seen a recent Times of India poll-- following 11/26-- wherein 24% of respondents declared their willingness to "give up our interests in Kashmir" in order to stop future terrorist attacks. If one compared these respondents with those opining in favor of the sellout "nuclear deal" brokered by Manmohan Singh , I wonder how much of a correlation one would find. Clearly, a fifth column of deracinated elite Indians who will clamor in favour of America's interests has already been created.

Most of all, India may have given those Americans who seek to rip away Kashmir, a very strong reason to believe that the window of opportunity for carving up our territory is rather urgently limited in scope. Last year, amidst a chorus of scornful psyops from the Western media, we launched the Chandrayaan mission. The chorus fell abruptly and completely silent as the mission demonstrated our capabilities... entering lunar orbit and placing an object at an exact, predetermined location on the moon's surface. The question must have run through the minds of every Zbignew, Albright, Clinton, Brown, Sarkozy and Merkel watching this happen... if those Hindoos can do that today, how long can we count on their rockets not being able to deliver anything they want to any place in the world?

Ali · Post by **Ali** » 26 Dec 2008 11:19

I usually don’t post here, but this nugget has caused me to de-lurk for a brief moment

Jang Urdu is reporting that Pakistan has showed Admiral Mullen photographs of a fully loaded SU-30 MKI, backed by a formation Mig 29s, flying over Khariyan (sp?), Punjab on 12th December. Jang further states that the plane was intercepted by Pakistani Fighters jet which caused it to return back to India. This incidence caused Pakistan to inform US that it is putting its operation on hold in FATA immediately...
http://jang.com.pk/jang/dec2008-daily/2 ... 8/main.htm

Now I don’t know how credible this report is but if it is true I find it fascinating that India decided to send a SU-30 over Pakistan but decided not to go through with the surgical strikes.

RajaJi · Post by **RajaJi** » 26 Dec 2008 11:25

ramana wrote:Aaj Tak had a whole segment in their Vishesh half hour on the Talibanization of the TSP Army. They made the connections that Shiv is making about how the Pakiban and ISI and Kiyani are all mile jhule. Question is English language media hasnt woken up yet.

iI think the forecasted outing of the fundoos in TSP Army is occuring earlier than forecast. And looks like the fundoos are on the ascendent.

Maybe time to revisit POK tests.

Yes aajtak has been playing that segment over and over and over all day today, it's called "napak love story".

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 26 Dec 2008 11:27

Ali wrote:I usually don’t post here, but this nugget has caused me to de-lurk for a brief moment

Jang Urdu is reporting that Pakistan has showed Admiral Mullen photographs of a fully loaded SU-30 MKI, backed by a formation Mig 29s, flying over Khariyan (sp?), Punjab on 12th December. Jang further states that the plane was intercepted by Pakistani Fighters jet which caused it to return back to India. This incidence caused Pakistan to inform US that it is putting its operation on hold in FATA immediately...
http://jang.com.pk/jang/dec2008-daily/2 ... 8/main.htm

Now I don’t know how credible this report is but if it is true I find it fascinating that India decided to send a SU-30 over Pakistan but decided not to go through with the surgical strikes.

Woah. Thats like 60 Km or so into Pak territory at least?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Dec 2008 11:30

fully loaded SU-30 MKI, backed by a formation Mig 29s, flying over Khariyan (sp?), Punjab on 12th December.

that claim is a dead give away.

mig-29s have nowhere near the range a su-30 has. moreover any fully loaded su-30 will be escorted by other su-30's (or even by itself only) not mig-29s.

Ali · Post by **Ali** » 26 Dec 2008 11:36

FWIW, according to the report only SU-30 crossed the border, Mig 29s were spotted on the Indians side. Its kinda hard to translate from URDU to ENglish without losing some context.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Dec 2008 11:41

RajaJi wrote:
Baljeet wrote: Vikram
You got it little bit wrong my brother. Revenge does not have to be to prevent more attacks, revenge we must have for all the innocent lives lost because of the mere existence of nation called pakistan. We take revenge to honor the bravery of Satbir singh bus driver who lost a leg and eye when he threw out the bombs from bus he was driving in Delhi and saved Indian Lives. We take revenge because Saurabh Kalia and his jawans of 9th Jat Regiment were barbarically murdered, etc etc.
We do not take revenge to prevent more attacks. We go to war when we are fully prepared, have all resources, have leadership, have men who will fight, nation willing to sacrifice to exist. We take revenge and settle the score with our enemy once for all such that enemy does not exist. Remember at mahabharat, war did not end until Duryodhan was killed and left to die in agnoy and pain. We must destroy pakistan and when it is on the death bed, we should prevent anyone else from providing any kind of medication to ease their death. They must die in same agony as Saurabh kalia and his men died. Those pictures will never be made public but those who have seen them, have puked in disgust. We must do the same to every pakistani what was done to Saurabh and his men.
I had never heard or read about Capt. Saurabh Kalia and what happened to him. After reading your post I did a google search and came across what he went through, such inhumane torture. I am still shivering from immense anger and utter sadness after reading what he went through. These b**tard muslims don't deserve to be called humans. They are a disgrace to humanity. Aren't these also the type of things they did to innocent Hindus and Sikhs during partition? Also, these b**tards did such dastardly acts to the Sikh gurus during mughal rule. So why they hell were they not all kicked out of India? What the hell is wrong with us Indians? All bloody muslims should of been kicked out of India at that time. And even after them commiting such acts against our innocent citizens how can we invite them and play bhai bhai with them? This is just outrageous, how can we invite their artists to come an participate in our television shows? How can we appreciate their singers singing songs on Indian television and on bollywood movies? Do we forget such atrocities that these b**tards have commited against innocent Indians. It's high time that these pigs be slaughtered for the sins they have committed. An eye for an eye. We should do the same to these b**tards after capturing them in war, a hundred porkis should be made to pay and die in the same manner for every Saurabh Kalia they have tortured and killed.

Wake up and smell the coffee.
That is the way the puk army attempted to strike terror into the hearts of the Indians.
Its also the most important and basic part of their operational doctrine.

When we do the same, Suzanna Arundhati Roy, Teesta and her friends will kick up a storm, aided by their secular hindu friends. Talk about useful idiots!! There is an orchestrated and coordinated international effort to portray muslims as being oppressed whilst they conveniently forget their own oppressions. How many times has the DDM taken up cases of Hindus being persecuted in pukistan or bangladesh? or elsewhere.
There is a distinct pattern to their propaganda. Look at how things are playing out in pukistan right now and our own DDM going on and on about not having given the pakis enough proof.
Why so much of Indian TV time for pukis? Are Indians getting a similar chance to put across our point of view to puki audiences?
This is also a part of their strategy which we often fail to understand and grasp.
Burkha Butt and Turdesai are leading the charge here. Both padmashris mind you!
Hope that they have undergone female and male circumcision respectively without benefit of anesthesia.

http://www.leinsdorf.com/quranic.htm

The Quranic [Koranic] Concept of War

The Quranic Concept of War by Brigadier S. K. Malik shows why the conflict with Islam is going to be a long, drawn out affair. To begin, it has been going on in spurts and fits for almost 100 years, since the end of World War I when the collapse of the Ottoman Empire exposed its former subjects to the benevolent colonialism of the West. From the betrayed promises to England's Arab allies, to the creation of Palestine and Israel, the Algerian War for independence in the 1950's, the attempt to overthrow Nasser, to the overthrow of Mossadegh's legally elected government in Iran in 1953 and the installation of the Shah's dictatorship with the assistance of the CIA trained Savak secret police, the illegal Israeli occupation, ethnic cleansing of and annexation of the West Bank, to the Iran-Iraq War, the canceling of the second round of the Algerian elections in 1992 because they were going to be won by the Islamic Salvation Front, to the military intervention in Turkish politics to prevent the rise of Islamic influence to the Gulf War and now the Occupation of Iraq it would be hard to argue that the west has contributed anything other than death and misery and stealing oil to the Moslem world. Now, in the tradition of all peoples who fight for their freedom and self-determination, the Islamists are fighting back.

George Bush and the neo-conservative nincompoops are waging a crusade to bring freedom, democracy and a capitalist "market economy" to the middle east. Whether these political and economic forms can ever work in a water deficit society remains to be seen. As has been written elsewhere, societies whose traditions evolved in water deficit parts of the world have socialist traditions almost by necessity. There can not be a market economy in water, the absence of which leads to death. Islam is the monotheistic religion that evolved in the desert. Bush seems to have repeated the mistake of the Gulf War, failing to understand that no one cares about land, because desert is useless in the absence of water.

Also, western strategy and war aims are significantly different from Islamic strategy, at least according to Brigadier Malik. For his own selfish domestic political purposes, Bush is the major progenitor of Islamic war aim of terrorizing the enemy. So Bush is the Islamic warrior's biggest ally. Malik also explains the function of suicide bombing.

"The Quranic military strategy thus enjoins us to prepare ourselves for war to the utmost in order to strike terror into the heart of the enemies, known or hidden, while guarding ourselves from being terror-stricken by the enemy. In this strategy, guarding ourselves against terror is the 'Base'; preparation for war to the utmost is he 'Cause'; while the striking terror into the hears of the enemies is he 'Effect'. The whole philosophy revolves round the human heart, his soul, spirit and Faith. In war, our main objective is the opponent's heart or soul, our main weapon of offence against this objective is the strength of our own souls, and to launch such an attack, we have to keep terror away from our own hearts.

"The Quranic strategy comes into play from the preparation stage, and aims at imposing a direct decision upon the enemy. Other things remaining the same, our preparation for war is the true index of our performance during war. We must aim at creating a wholesome respect for our Cause and our will and determination to attain it, in the minds of the enemies, well before facing them on the field of battle. So spirited, zealous, complete and thorough should be our preparation for war that we should enter upon the 'war of muscles' having already won the 'war of will'. Only a strategy that aims at striking terror into the hearts of the enemies from the preparation stage can produce direct results and turn Liddell Hart's dream into a reality.

"During peace-time, our 'Will' must find its expression through 'Preparation'. The war of preparation being waged by us during peace is vastly more important than the active war. Strategy has comparatively greater stakes in a drill square, during a training exercises, at a model discussion and in an operational conference than in the theater or zone of operations. Anything we do or fail to do during peace-time is creating a certain impact - favorable or otherwise - upon our potential adversaries. Seemingly trivial and innocent acts of commission and omission can also accumulate together to asume great importance. We must be constantly conscious of the fact that our strategy is working in full swing during peace-time, and by our actions, we are either contributing towards the attainment of its aim or are undermining it, as the case may be.

"Preparation must be 'to the utmost', both in quality and in quantity. It must be a continuous and never ending process. Preparation should be at the plane of total strategy, that is, Jehad, and not of the military instrument alone. Military preparedness will yield the desired results only if it forms a part of the total preparedness. Quantitative preparation may have its physical limitations but qualitative preparation is limited only by our will and energy to acquire it. The lesser the physical resource, the greater must be the stress and reliance on the spiritual dimensions of war. Their operational effectiveness of a fighting force depends upon its total strength: physical as well as spiritual. An army might be inferior in one field but should be superior to the opponent in the aggregate. The side that is inferior in physical strength can draw on its spiritual strength to acquire a higher degree of aggregate strength. Physical strength must, however, be prepared for and applied 'to the utmost'. Physical preparedness is complimentary to spiritual preparedness and vice versa; none can compensate or intercede for the other.

"Terror struck into the hearts of the enemies is not only a means, it is the end in itself. Once a condition of terror into the opponent's heart is obtained, hardly anything is left to be achieved. It is the point where the means and the end meet and merge. Terror is not a means of imposing decision upon the enemy; it is the decision we wish to impose upon him. Psychological and physical dislocation is, at beat, a means, though, by no means, conclusive for striking terror into the hears of the enemies. Its effects are related to the physical and spiritual stamina of the opponent but are seldom of a permanent and lasting nature. An army that practices the Quranic philosophy of war in its totality is immune to psychological pressures. When Liddell Hart talks of imposing a direct decision upon the enemy through psychological dislocation alone, he is taking too much for granted.

"Terror cannot be struck into the hearts of an army by merely cutting its lines of communication or depriving it of its routes of withdrawal. it is basically related to the strength or weakness of the human soul. It can be instilled only if the opponent's Faith is destroyed. Psychological dislocation is temporary; spiritual dislocation is permanent. Psychological dislocation can be produced by a physical act but this does not hold good of the spiritual dislocation. To instill terror into the hearts of the enemy, it is essential, in the ultimate analysis, to dislocate his Faith. An invincible Faith is immune to terror. A weak Faith offers inroads to terror. The Faith conferred upon us by the Holy Quran has the inherent strength to ward off terror from us and to enable us to strike terror into the enemy. Whatever the form or type of strategy directed against the enemy, it must, in order to be effective, be capable of striking terror into the hearts of the enemy. [Underlining added.] A strategy that fails to attain this condition suffers from inherent drawbacks and weaknesses; and should be reviewed and modified. This rule is fully applicable to nuclear as well as conventional wars. It is equally true of the strategy of nuclear deterrence in fashion today. To be credible and effective, the strateg;y of deterrence must be capable of striking terror into the hears of the enemy." p.58-60.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 26 Dec 2008 11:46

RajaJi wrote:
Baljeet wrote: Vikram
You got it little bit wrong my brother. Revenge does not have to be to prevent more attacks, revenge we must have for all the innocent lives lost because of the mere existence of nation called pakistan. We take revenge to honor the bravery of Satbir singh bus driver who lost a leg and eye when he threw out the bombs from bus he was driving in Delhi and saved Indian Lives. We take revenge because Saurabh Kalia and his jawans of 9th Jat Regiment were barbarically murdered, etc etc.
We do not take revenge to prevent more attacks. We go to war when we are fully prepared, have all resources, have leadership, have men who will fight, nation willing to sacrifice to exist. We take revenge and settle the score with our enemy once for all such that enemy does not exist. Remember at mahabharat, war did not end until Duryodhan was killed and left to die in agnoy and pain. We must destroy pakistan and when it is on the death bed, we should prevent anyone else from providing any kind of medication to ease their death. They must die in same agony as Saurabh kalia and his men died. Those pictures will never be made public but those who have seen them, have puked in disgust. We must do the same to every pakistani what was done to Saurabh and his men.
EDITED

Not just the brave Capt. Kalia but scores of young Indian army officers have had the same fate. Our army is the greatest fighting force in the world, they don't fight for themselves, they don't fight for religion, they fight for Bharat Mata.

Everytime I read about our soldiers being killed, my blood boils, I cannot understand how our politicians & babus do not feel the same. For every Saurabh Kalia, we must capture & dilapidate the bodies of atleast 100 pigs.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Dec 2008 11:48

Ali wrote:FWIW, according to the report only SU-30 crossed the border, Mig 29s were spotted on the Indians side. Its kinda hard to translate from URDU to ENglish without losing some context.

any details about how the pictures were supposed to be taken ?

it's difficult to understand why PAF didn't engage a lone a/c if it really was there. goes against normal paki behaviour.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Dec 2008 12:33

Border Security Force allowing thousands of terrorists into India as the Samjhauta Express from Pakistan crosses the Attari border gate in Amritsar on Thursday.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 26 Dec 2008 13:26

Well the dead line has arrived and is dead already. Meanwhile the Indian response is already planned and ready...