Indian Response to Terrorism

[uddu]

fully loaded SU-30 MKI, backed by a formation Mig 29s, flying over Khariyan (sp?), Punjab on 12th December.

that claim is a dead give away.

mig-29s have nowhere near the range a su-30 has. moreover any fully loaded su-30 will be escorted by other su-30's (or even by itself only) not mig-29s.

So you don't pelieve in the skills of the Mujahudeen in Adop-e-photoshopee. Even Amrikhan Mullen is convinced.

[Dhiman]

The former top official in the Jimmy Carter Administration, who has been consulted by Obama on security matters, also pointed out the pathetic state of Muslims in India as a factor contributing to tension-ridden South Asian scenario.

“And, also it is related to the fact that great many Muslims in India are very underprivileged and don’t have a share of the sort of Indian development growth and all of that. So there is a lot of residual resentment among the 140 or so million Muslims in India.”

Washington, he said, has to urge restraint on both sides. He said while India may have an edge in the case of war “but India could blow itself up.”

From what I can tell it was actually Arundhati Roy who first proposed this rediculous hypothesis linking strong action against terrorism with "underprivileged indian muslims" and "civil war". Seems like Arundhati Roy has developed quite a fan following among Washigton power circles.

What Arundhati Roy does best is to combine one or more unrelated indian insecurities into a theory that presents its worst-possible (often delusional) senario in most sensationalist manner possible. She did this with recent Amarnath Yatra violence as well by famously saying "India needs freedom from Kashmir as much as Kashmir needs freedom from India." However, she failed to make a comment after the recent Kashmir elections which had almost 60% voter turnout that marginalized the seperatist platform in Kashmir Valley. As best as I can tell, Arundhati Roy is an "intellectual terrorist." She suddenly comes in an pokes her nose in a crisis situation drawing up worst possible deluations and without bothering to cross check them against past, present, or future reality. While the terrorists play against physical insecurity, Arundhati Roy plays against intellectual insecurity. Perhaps she didn't receive enough attention as a child and hence her attempts to draw attention towards herself by coming up with such unrealistic delusions. (see http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/the-mo ... 05526.html and http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/de ... ndhati-roy.)

Regarding US and Muslims, the less that can be said the better, but one thing is for sure: they are trying to exploit the most delusional and unrealistic case of Indian security with respect to its minorty community in order to gain some leverage. CNN brought many so called "experts" immediately after the Mumbai attacks who even tried to link "cast system" (out of all things in the world they could have picked) with mumbai terror attacks - sheer ignorance about Indian affairs combined with insecurity that US itself has regarding its relationships with the Muslim world, and their desire and somewhat arrogant disposition to continue to be a "world leader" in all things concerned (a.k.a the "New American Century") despite the fact that the Iraq war was started on false grounds, Afghanistan is not showing much progress, and US economy is slipping with worst case economic senario being nothing short of alarming.

So I for one would not delve much into rabble that is coming out of new administration in US - after 8 years of going nowhere, they are now trying too hard to win muslim mindshare by giving weight to rediculous hypothesis such as that which links "civil war" with "muslim minority population" and "terrorism". Indirectly they are now basically labeling all Indian muslims as supporters of terrorism. Nothing could be more offensive to Indian muslims in general and the social upliftment (and often gandhian) policies that have been consistenty been follwed in India since Independence in many sections of Indian society which also include disadvantaged sections of Muslim society as well.

Religously US is an extemely homogenous country with more than 90% cristians. They simply don't have enough experience, knowledge, and perspective of dealing with muslims and specially Indian muslims who they probably consider to be same as Pakistani muslims or those from Middle east. The first thing that they need to understand about Indian Muslims is that muslim population in India is not a homogenous entity but a very diverse set of groups. I don't think they are even at step 1 yet - let's see what the future holds in the new Obama admininstration which is creating this great aura of awe and invincibility in terms of tackling problems.

[Dhiman]

Are we ready for a war?

c) Don't we need AWACS? What about INS vikramaditya? Fact is weapons delivery and operationalization takes time in the armed forces. What arrives tomorrow will still need the time to incorporate it into the large orbat in an effective manner. From Parakram 6 years ago, think of what we have managed to get done.

80+ Sukhois mki
Dhruvs 100+
Upgraded Jags 32+
40 Mig 27s upg
120 bisons
Pinaka and Smerch
Testing of the ABM
etc the list is long. Just the Bisons alone are more than enough to wipe out the whole PAF. What more time do we need? how many more must die while we wait on for an AWACS or the like. The firepower is there now. What lacks is the will to use it.

Clearly the air force along with missile inventory should be strong enough to gain a complete dominance over Pakistani airspace in less than a day or two if the response is well coordinated. It's good that TSP has their fighters in air on active patrol, since it will be easier to take them out through BVR missiles as compared to those that are hidden in bunkers at their various airfields. So a combined missile + air force action that targets both fighters in air and airbases along with radar installation should be sufficient to put TSP air force out of service.

If IAF is able to quickly get air dominance over Pakistan it should greatly reduce TSPs ability to deliever nukes to India to manageable risk levels, serve as a great bargaining chip for the diplomats to put Pakistan's house in order, and allow for picking targets on the ground at will. We don't even need to engate the TSP army on the ground where the chances of casualities are higher. As long as it leaves the civilian administration in TSP intact, such an action should be a win-win situation for everyone except offcourse the army and the Jihadist. Offcourse if there are any doubts regarding battle preparedness of IAF to take complete air dominance within one or two days, we should wait and quickly arm IAF upto a level that they can quickly gain control of Pakistan's airspace within a day or two - otherwise the TSP's nukes become a major risk factor.

We would have had less to loose in case of an all out war if such a war would have taken place in 2001/02 after operation Parakram. As India develops over time, we would have more and more development assets on the firing line in case of a war, so better to take care of the problem now rather than wait for future. The benefits of winning the war against TSP now far outweigh all the risks invoved in the war.

Pakistan is no threat to India, but a Pakistan - China alliance is and will get more problematic as India develops. Hence better to take care of it now rather than later. It can only improve India's place in the world affairs and improve our positition with respect to the Chinese who have no qualms about putting hurdles in our path. The sooner this is taken care of the better and the odds are greatly in our favor if we are ever to grow out of our self-imposed boundries in south asia. Dr. Manmohan Singh, please rumble your mumble and take care of this mess - we all noticed that you still haven't ruled out the military option yet

[Philip]

For many us on BR,we have watched for decades the utter chicanery,duplicity,venality,barbarity,mendacity,rapacity,perversity and inhumanity of the US of A.From Hiroshima to Vietnam to Iraq,the US has thought nothing of invading nations,destroyng their ancient heritage ,butchering their people with an assortment of WMDs,and deceiving the so-called civilised nations of the world with the fiction of restoring democracy around the globe,while in actuality it has been as rampant and rapacious of nations as Nazi Germany was in WW2.

In our region,it has consistently allowed Pak to rape India for decades,supplying it with military hardware and the money to do so,so that it could continue to commit its despicable act of geo-political buggery with its favourite rent boy,Pakistan.Seduced by tall tales of making India another "superpower",the despicable regime of Bush & Co. seduced the government of a debauched Congress led govt. of the day,whose leaders have betrayed the country for 30 pieces of silver.The horrific acts witnessed on 26/11 are a grim and stark reminder of this betrayal.One month has passed and our great "strategic partner",the US of A,has only reaffirmed its great friendship with ally Pakistan.The imminent Sec. of State,Mrs.Clinton,now plans to send her hubby,ex-pres. Bill,who turned a blind eye to the Sino-Pak nuclear froliferation as an "honest broker" to the Indian subcontinent! The US must surely now be seen as India's ENEMY."My enemy's friend is my enemy",to paraphrase Chairman Mao.

Here is what Harold Pinter,Nobel Prize winner for Literature and the world's greatest playwright who died yesterday said about the US.

Excerpts from his Obits.

Harold Pinter, the son of tailor from London's East End who rose to become one of the nation's greatest playwrights, has died aged 78 after a prolonged battle with cancer.

Pinter was born into a Jewish family in the London borough of Hackney. His grandparents had fled persecution in Poland and Odessa. He was attracted to acting from an early age and his political activism was evident when in 1948 he refused, as a conscientious objector, to do National Service.

An outspoken political campaigner, Pinter was a critic of Tony Blair and George Bush, who he called a "mass murderer".

He condemned the invasion of Iraq as "a bandit act, an act of blatant state terrorism, demonstrating absolute contempt for the conception of international law". He singled Tony Blair out for criticism when Nato bombed Serbia.

Not only a remarkable playwright with one of the most illustrious careers in contemporary theatre, Pinter's career also encompassed acting, poetry and political activism as a vociferous critic of American and British foreign policy.

On the United States

"The crimes of the US throughout the world have been systematic, constant, clinical, remorseless, and fully documented but nobody talks about them"

On cricket

"I tend to think that cricket is the greatest thing that God ever created on earth – certainly greater than sex, although sex isn't too bad either"

[AdityaM]

It was in the Indian express today that trade has again restarted between the 2 countries & a consignment of Kinoos were received & tomatoes exported

[Chinmayanand]

The biggest terrorists engaged in destroying Indian culture,heritage and history and ofcourse the tiny little "Proud to be Indian" syndrome can be found at 10,Janpath and 7 Race Course Road.They should be dealt with POTA...

[shiv]

The former top official in the Jimmy Carter Administration, who has been consulted by Obama on security matters, also pointed out the pathetic state of Muslims in India as a factor contributing to tension-ridden South Asian scenario.

“And, also it is related to the fact that great many Muslims in India are very underprivileged and don’t have a share of the sort of Indian development growth and all of that. So there is a lot of residual resentment among the 140 or so million Muslims in India.”

Washington, he said, has to urge restraint on both sides. He said while India may have an edge in the case of war “but India could blow itself up.”

From what I can tell it was actually Arundhati Roy who first proposed this rediculous hypothesis linking strong action against terrorism with "underprivileged indian muslims" and "civil war". Seems like Arundhati Roy has developed quite a fan following among Washigton power circles.

Not just ARoy. Any fool who gets half his inputs from Pakis will talk like this. And the US is full of such fools who use Pakis to get info about indians.

[Philip]

Not to mention the "Biased British Corporation",who love in particular one jingoistic journo from the Dung (?),who uses every opportunity on Dateline London to rant and rave at India.The last time round after 26/11,even his rantings was too much for some of the others on the panel and he got the stick up the nether end.However,a careful examonation of those at the helm of the BBC's news dept. must be made to discover the true reasons why the Paki line is totuted and every attempt is made to discredit India,as the rest of the British media is far more objective and after 26/11 have even been pro-active in exposing Pak's linkages to terror.

One month on,we seem yet again to be on the verge of snatching propaganda defeat from the jaws of victory! Where has there been a white paper on 26/11 available for all nations?Where has there been an invitation to the world's media (including Pakistani) to visit India,speak (under strict supervision) to the captured terrorist? Films of his interrogation could've been also shown.It would've put the Paki media that is attempting to deny Pak involvement totally off balance and almost impossible to deny.Right now,it appears to be Pak that it making all the running,in the media,on the battlefield (to come) and there is actually an air of defiance from Pak,as if it were India that had been attacked and who should be punished!

Even stranger have been the hurried visits from the US military top brass.The head honcho,aptly named Adm."Mule",has been as procreative at pushing Pak to deliver the suspects wanted by India as his name suggests.More astonishingly,it appears that the US and Pak have made a deal,which will be evident on the Afghan front.The US is blatantly using this opportunity to grab Pak by the ghoulies and demand a payoff on the Afghan front,instead of making them pay for 26/11.Obama the "Messiah" even wants to send an envoy to the region,none other than Hillary's randy hubby Bill,who turned a blind at the Sino-Pak N-prolferation perfidy during his presidency,as he was well financed and serviced by a Chinese general's daughter at the White House!India must refuse to talk to any US envoy until Pak delivers on the wanted list.What the GOI should do if it has any genitalia at all-and there is serious doubt on this "point",is to suspend ALL military realtions with the US.A total cessation of all exercises and defence cooperation,no orders of any US defence hardware and the expulsion of all US military/intel./diploducks connected in any way with the US's armed forces and intel agencies.WE must make the US choose who it wantsas its freind in the region.IF this govt. is too impotsnt,then a new govt. must be voted in next year that will.

There seems to be a total lack of focus by the GOI under MMS,except for the odd statement from one minister or the other.He has also not showed true leadership qualitites in a crisis and if he has any self-respect should resign,but after all he is a Congressman ,a tribe who first look for power,pelf and survival at any cost,even at the expense of the nation and its people!

[RavinM]

Not to mention the "Biased British Corporation",who love in particular one jingoistic journo from the Dung (?),who uses every opportunity on Dateline London to rant and rave at India.The last time round after 26/11,even his rantings was too much for some of the others on the panel and he got the stick up the nether end.However,a careful examonation of those at the helm of the BBC's news dept. must be made to discover the true reasons why the Paki line is totuted and every attempt is made to discredit India,as the rest of the British media is far more objective and after 26/11 have even been pro-active in exposing Pak's linkages to terror.

I totally agree with you mate, first they say gunman- now they call that moron porki "suspect", and even when the attacks were on, there was a porki man on Dateline- LON and he said Faridkot is not in Puki, and got away saying that, there were a bunch of 4 pro-porki , duds chatting. what's happening to this channel? looks like it's got a hidden agenda of it's own! I have stopped watching it! I think CNN is much better, there is a blackout on what the pokis are screaming!! I think BR should pass a resol. to stop watching this totally upside down channel!

[NRao]

Jimmy and ARoy have done their jobs, Obama will do based on what he knows, what has GoI done so far? With some 20%+ under Maoists there are plenty of non-Muslims who are in similar predicament.

[brihaspati]

"The Quranic military strategy thus enjoins us to prepare ourselves for war to the utmost in order to strike terror into the heart of the enemies, known or hidden, while guarding ourselves from being terror-stricken by the enemy. In this strategy, guarding ourselves against terror is the 'Base'; preparation for war to the utmost is he 'Cause'; while the striking terror into the hears of the enemies is he 'Effect'. The whole philosophy revolves round the human heart, his soul, spirit and Faith. In war, our main objective is the opponent's heart or soul, our main weapon of offence against this objective is the strength of our own souls, and to launch such an attack, we have to keep terror away from our own hearts.

"The Quranic strategy comes into play from the preparation stage, and aims at imposing a direct decision upon the enemy.... We must aim at creating a wholesome respect for our Cause and our will and determination to attain it, in the minds of the enemies, well before facing them on the field of battle. So spirited, zealous, complete and thorough should be our preparation for war that we should enter upon the 'war of muscles' having already won the 'war of will'. Only a strategy that aims at striking terror into the hearts of the enemies from the preparation stage can produce direct results and turn Liddell Hart's dream into a reality.

"Preparation must be 'to the utmost', both in quality and in quantity. It must be a continuous and never ending process. Preparation should be at the plane of total strategy, that is, Jehad, and not of the military instrument alone...Quantitative preparation may have its physical limitations but qualitative preparation is limited only by our will and energy to acquire it. The lesser the physical resource, the greater must be the stress and reliance on the spiritual dimensions of war... Physical preparedness is complimentary to spiritual preparedness and vice versa; none can compensate or intercede for the other.

"Terror struck into the hearts of the enemies is not only a means, it is the end in itself. ....An army that practices the Quranic philosophy of war in its totality is immune to psychological pressures.

Excellent article, but I see one fundamental fault: this assumes that the cornerstone of Quranic strategy of war is based on "deeply establishing the hold of terror" in the "hearts of the enemy". This is a fundamental and fatal error of understanding on the part of non-Muslims. Whatever the Islamists might say, we have to look at how they actually behaved in real historical wars. Right from the beginning of Muhammad's wars, terror was not the declared aim of the Islamic party - terror was only unleashed after full preparation under all possible deception to annihilate the entire social structure of the enemy once and for all - it was of utmost importance for the Muslims not to let the enemy suspect anything of this until the Muslims were fully ready - establishing terror in the hearts of the enemy implies that "enemy's hearts" are still beating! No, this must get into our heads - that Muhammad's strategy was aimed at liquidation of "enemy" in such a way, that no ideology of the enemy survived to rally the people around against him, that the social structure of the enemy was completely broken. This was aimed at satisfying the fundamental aims of Islamic strategy as evident in the core texts - personal dominance and safety of the "Imam/leader", satisfy the biological greed of the army of Islam - land, wealth and women of the enemy - and for this complete destruction of the main obstruction - the military strength and persistent holders of the ideology of the enemy - its intelligentsia and adult males. The BR admin may not like these words of mine, but it is written out plainly in the core texts for all to read ans see - and I urge you all to read them, in authentic translations or better in the original.

The core principle as laid out by Muhammad - is "war is decpetion/deception is war" - this is the fundamental strategy - striking terror into the hearts of the enemy is not an end itself- it can reveal the intent of the Islamist long before the ultimate destrcutive program of Islam can be unleashed. The early Muslims make and break treaties to suit their strategic thinking - they rely more on ambush/sudden hostile actions etc.

The Islamic strategy, right from the days of its inception, was to hide the real intent of Islam and not indulge in casual action that gives away the ultimate program of Islam. We should never make the mistake that Brig. Malik makes. The terror strategy comes rather out of frustration and a reverse deep terror in the hearts of Muslims themselves - that their ultimate aim is perhaps unrealizable. This came up because of failures to convert societies like India, or losing out to European imperialism.

The reason Muslims fail to understand their failure is because they are brought up to believe rigidly in the mindset and logic of early Islam which formulated its strategy of expansion based on the 7th century Arabian and middle eastern experience. Their enemy were isolated, small community, low surpuls equilibrium economies - perhaps loosely connected over very long distances under a formal but weak empire - most of the time these communities did not always share strong national/cultural identities that could sustain them even in long isolation independent of political leadership to hold them to a culture. This was the reason they were unable to to resist proselytizing Islam. However Islam failed in India for exactly these reasons - as social cultural identities proved strong enough to survive even without state power to protect it and to regenerate political/military resistance even when older political power centres had been destroyed. Same happened against Europeans which by the time of Islam's advent had mostly fallen under the leadership of various tribes of pagan Germans who retained their cultural/military viciousness even under Christianity.

What is needed is to understand that it is "deception" that is the key in the "Quranic strategy" and not terror in itself. The sign that they are using more and more "terror" is a sign that their leadership is itself deeply "terrorized" - and this is the time for non-Muslims to prepare for the final annihilation of this ideology, its theological leadership. However distasteful it may appear, the revealed traditions themselves give us the records of how successfully they eliminated opposing ideologies they wanted to erase - and there can be no quesiness to adopting these strategies, think of it as ugly but necessary surgery. Islam now imposes terror because it blindly thinks it faces isolated Jews and Bedouin tribes or vapid Persian/Byzantine imperial lackeys and is worried that given more time the enemy is going to come after it and destroy it. Terror is defensive tactics in Islam - not an attacking one.

India needs to think in terms of longer term complete eradication of the ideological basis and this can only be done on the subcontinent by reassimilation of the Islamic populations in a single national framework - which allows comprehensive social/political/military intervention needed. Our only weakness is our self-censorship in facing and discussing the real sources of "terror" - in claiming that a "whole community" is being targeted - no, no community, no humans, no individuals, the target is the "ideology itself".

[Chinmayanand]

Brihaspatiji , you are inviting the wrath of (admin)Allah and ofcourse missing on the 72 virgins...

[A_Gupta]

Just to point out that Brezezinski is 80 years old, and likely is frozen in his world-view from US orthodoxy of 20 years ago.

[Singha]

extra! extra!

Pranabda threatens pakistan saying next time India will not show restraint.

he says next attack will escalate the situation.

---
now none of these boot lickers and 'leaders' will have to face to the
next attack. it will be us - the card carrying lowly street dogs.

its time to start a next attack thread and figure out ways and means to
safeguard ourselves, since obviously the GoI is not interested.

[Chinmayanand]

extra! extra!

Pranabda threatens pakistan saying next time India will not show restraint.

he says next attack will escalate the situation.

---
now none of these boot lickers and 'leaders' will have to face to the
next attack. it will be us - the card carrying lowly street dogs.

its time to start a next attack thread and figure out ways and means to
safeguard ourselves, since obviously the GoI is not interested.

"(Indian)Qaum demoralise ho chuki hai, isliye aggression zaruri hai" we don't even have an indian version of zaid hamid... letus hope tehreek-e-taliban sends its 500 suicide bombers to blow up the parliamentarians...inshaallah we will welcome them and so should the security apparatus...these mofos politicians and bureaucrats should be burnt alive...torched till death

[milindc]

Wow !! Vishnu som on NDTV live now

Are military strikes an option ?
will it solve terrorism
how will PGB be helpful at removing terrorism
A war will be costly.. thousands of crores
Are we ready for nuke war.

An analyst 'Gurmeet xxxx' says that we need to attack ammo dumps, bridges, and Paki army.
Vishnu asking Gurmeet how will attacking a Paki Jawan remove terrorism?

[Rangudu]

Singha

When did Pranabda make that "next time" statement? Any links?

[milindc]

CCS (Cabinet Committee on Security) chaired by MMS and FM, says Paki build up not alarming...
MMS just changed diaper and can keep changing them every 15 minutes. The stench can be controlled during meetings.... no need to be alarmed..

This is breaking news on TimesNow.

[milindc]

Singha

When did Pranabda make that "next time" statement? Any links?

It is a ticker on CNN-IBN, the full context is not known, but channel guys say that Pranabda is expecting more terrorist strikes.

[Rangudu]

It makes sense. TSP is deploying troops and missiles (or claims to do so). If they launch another attack, TSPA will be ready and India will be forced to act.

[SaiK]

nice one rangudu... that sounds more nofu kinds. but that i thought it was related to nbc planning. but never know with pakis.

on the "next time".. reminds me of tamil movie comedians.

[Baljeet]

Rajaji, Chandra and other esteemed brothers of BRF.
Here is an article by Mr A K Ray of pioneer. I have to say, Michael Huffington plaigrised the thoughts of Mr. Ray in his book "Clash of Civilization". Please read and simmer in anger. It is high time in this nations history that Gurjal, Paki Born Indian PM (Maha Moorakh Singh) and all their cronies be charged with treason. Gandhi Khandan and Congress party must be delivered to the justice of treason along with Janta Dal idiots like Gowda, Chandrashekhar, IK Gujral, and of course some of BJP netas too. Remember it was Gurjal who did the most damage to RAW and her assets. He ordered RAW to shutdown ARC operations during his tenure in 1997. Pakistanis used this as an opportunity to buildup for kargil. When every General, desh bhakt was screaming Intel Failure they were alluding to the failure of Inder Kumar Gujral Doctrine whose flawed doctrine led to torture of Saurabh and his men, Death of Shoorveer like Maj Acharya, Capt Batra, Maj Vivek Gupta, Lt Pandey, etc etc. Indian media and these Bh@dw* ki aulad politicians started to cover up their own failures. Remember this, these politicians will protect one another, behind the doors they are the same.

Title: The second coming of barbarians
Author: A K Ray
Publication: The Pioneer
Date: June 24, 1999

In one of the most brutal acts, the Pakistan Army tortured six Indian
soldiers, including a young Lieutenant, gouged their eyeballs, burnt
them with cigarette butts and chopped off noses, ears and genitals."
Thus ran the news report on June 11, aptly head-lined, 'Barbarians'.
That was the state of Lieutenant Saurav Kalia and five of his men from
4 Jats who had gone on a patrol on May 14 in the Kaksar area.

The same morning appears a piece by a renowned columnist in which he
says, "Now that the unspeakable dishonesty of the Pakistani
establishment (as opposed to the Pakistani people, let us always
remember) is manifest in Kargil..." That instantly brought back to
mind the days in Berlin (1955-57) where I read and heard about the
controversy over who were responsible for the horrors of the Holocaust
and other Nazi atrocities during the second World War. To the
question, "Who did it?" the infuriating reply from large numbers of
Germans was, "We didn't do it; the SS did it." Then one day, Gerhard
Reitlinger's "SS, the Alibi of a Nation" tore off the mask of
hypocrisy. Who were the SS, he asked. Were they not fathers,
husbands, brothers and sons of those who pleaded innocence? When Jews
loaded in cattle-wagons were being shipped to Belsen and Auschw4tz
over German railroads, did not the station masters know what was
afoot? And so on.

First, there was the deliberate murder of Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja,
and now comes the murder of Lieutenant Saurav Kalia and his five men
and the barbaric mutilation of their bodies after evident torture.
Who did these things? Are they not fathers and husbands, and brothers
and sons of the people of Pakistan? These foul deeds cannot be
watered down by ascribing them to the Pakistani "establishment" as
opposed to the Pakistani "people". These barbaric acts constitute the
collective guilt of the entire Pakistani nation, which every
Pakistani-including the Najam Sethis-must share and pay for. There is
absolutely no ground, no justification, for a schizophrenic
distinction between those who wield power in Pakistan and the rest.

It is not enough to be shocked and out-raged by instances of Pakistani
barbarism, now exposed to the horror of the civilised world. This
barbarism exists and thrives next door. Therefore, one must go beyond
the act to the mind that produced the act.

To he able to do that, it is imperative to shed the suicidal delusion
that Pakistan to-day consists really of the nice friends and
neighbours one had in pre-1946 Lahore. The fact is that it does not.

The reality is that the Pakistanis today are a different breed. Ayub
Khan's civilised gesture to Field Marshall KM Cariappa in 1965
be-longed to a different age altogether and an entirely different set
of values. Yet, the disease had perhaps begun to spread even
earlier. Conversation with the PoWs of the 1965 war revealed that the
officers and men of the Pakistani armed forces received intensive
indoctrination from mullahs about the superiority and invincibility of
Islam, and the religious merit to be gained by killing kafirs. Tank
crews were taught that if kafirs make things difficult, just recite
such and such ayat, and see them running away from the battlefield!

Perhaps we did not realise then what this revelation meant. It is
doubtful if we do even now. It actually signified the rapid growth of
the influence of the mullah and the increasing reach and clout of the
Jamaat-e-Islami. The Jamaat does not believe in representative
government, and cares not it is not represented in the legislature.

Its sole purpose is to "Islamise" the minds of the people, and to get
such "Islamised" people into crucial positions in the Government, the
armed forces and civil professions. Its targets are the lower level
Government employees, the rural population, and their children.
Together with a number of similar organisations, they teach that
Islam-the Sunni variety-is predestined to rule over the whole world,
and that it is the duty of every Muslim to contribute to that end;
that the earth be-longs to Allah and therefore only Muslim's have the
right to live on it and so on.

For the ideologues of these organisations, kafirs are sub-human-the
Untermenschen of the Nazis-not human at all. So what one does with
them and to them does not matter. Throughout their teaching runs the
theme, "Hate India, hate the Hindus".

Professor Tahir Mahmood condemns the atrocities committed on our
soldiers by the Pakistani Army as contrary to Islamic law. The
Islamist mullahs of Pakistan may well tell him that on the analogy of
what was done to the Banu Quraiza tribe in early seventh century, what
was done to our fighting men could not fall in the category of the
forbidden in the rive-degree Islamic scale of ethicality. Although it
may not belong to the category of the mandatory it could fall into any
of the other three categories.

The sadistic orgy indulged in by the Pakistani Army is not an isolated
instance of aberration by a few. It is an expression of-the deepest
feelings in the mind brought to the fore by battle conditions. What
was barely under the surface merely floated up with all its ugliness.

It is, therefore, time to square up to the fact that the present
generation of Pakistanis, nurtured and guided by rabidly Islamic
mullahs, share nothing with us-neither the past, nor the present, nor
the future. No amount of pre-emptive capitulation via the so-called
"Gujral Doctrine" is going to alter their mind-set even a wee bit. It
is, therefore, vitally necessary to abjure the shibboleth of bygone
days that a strong, united Pakistan is good for us.

It is a historical inevitability that Pakistan will go into the
Taliban mode. We must be indubitably forewarned in this regard, and
forearm ourselves accordingly. Mercifully, the kebabs of Lahore do
not attract the vegetarians in the BJP, nor do they tempt the BJP's
allies as they do the non-vegetarians and pseudo-vegetarians and the
motley crowd of fools and exhibitionists on the side opposed to
them-witness one of them embracing Riaz Khokar on the occasion of a
book release.

Sober reflection, untainted by the starry-eyed naivete of a
media-hyped garrulous few in this city and their gimmicks like the
candle-light vigil at Wagah, will show that the conflict between us
and Pakistan now is not political or territorial but essential
civilisational-one between the Indic and the radical Islamist. The
contradiction is total, and, in Mao's terminology, "mutually
annihilatory". This truth has to be relentlessly drummed into every
Indian mind. We must realise that we are fighting in the preliminary
round of the great coming battle between radical Islam and human
civilisation. None of us can escape the blood, sweat and tears that
this struggle involves.

The age of the barbarians is again upon us. We must stand up, fight
and defeat it decisively. Let the nit-picking brigade of nitwits
scowl and frown, rave and rant. Ignore them.

[ManuT]

CCS (Cabinet Committee on Security) chaired by MMS and FM, says Paki build up not alarming...
MMS just changed diaper and can keep changing them every 15 minutes. The stench can be controlled during meetings.... no need to be alarmed..

This is breaking news on TimesNow.

2 issues were discussed at this meeting.
1. Pak army buildup
2. the still lingering anamolies of the 6th Pay Commission.

Not to worry MMS and P Chidambaram are (still) looking into both the issues.

[RajaJi]

I was watching aajtak and noticed that one of their headlines was "800 ultras still in J&K" . How come they are calling terrorists ultras? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that 800 terrorists at large in J&K? Maybe they are doing this to aviod panick among the populace? We people condemn bbc when they term the terrorists as gunman, but, what about our own national channels?

[ManishC]

Just to point out that Brezezinski is 80 years old, and likely is frozen in his world-view from US orthodoxy of 20 years ago.

Also Brezezinski does not know that most IMs are also steeped in Indian ethos which translates to being incapable of any meaningful action under any circumstances

[Rahul M]

Wow !! Vishnu som on NDTV live now

Are military strikes an option ?
will it solve terrorism
how will PGB be helpful at removing terrorism
A war will be costly.. thousands of crores
Are we ready for nuke war.

An analyst 'Gurmeet xxxx' says that we need to attack ammo dumps, bridges, and Paki army.
Vishnu asking Gurmeet how will attacking a Paki Jawan remove terrorism?

milind, is it gurmeet kanwal ?

[shynee]

High Commissioner meets Pak foreign secretary

With India-Pakistan relations hitting a new low, Islamabad [Images] on Friday said that there was a need to 'de-escalate' the tension and it was awaiting a response to its proposals regarding the joint investigation of the Mumbai terror attacks [Images].

The message was conveyed to Indian High Commissioner Satyabrata Pal by Pakistani Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir during a meeting in the Foreign Office today evening.

"The Foreign Secretary called the Indian High Commissioner to the Foreign Office and discussed the current situation," Foreign Office spokesman Mohammad Sadiq told PTI.

Bashir emphasised the need for de-escalating tensions and for steps by India to 'defuse the tensions', Sadiq said.

The Foreign Secretary also said Pakistan is awaiting a response from India for several proposals made in the wake of the Mumbai attacks, he added.

Pakistan has proposed that the two sides should conduct a joint investigation into the Mumbai attacks. It has suggested that a joint investigation commission headed by the national security advisors of the two countries should be set up.

Islamabad has also said it wants to send a high-level delegation led by Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi to New Delhi [Images] to discuss the modalities for a joint probe and the sharing of evidence and information about the Mumbai incident.

The meeting between Pal and Bashir took place against the backdrop of the movement of additional Pakistani troops to the Indian frontier in the wake of an escalation in tensions.

Reports said Pakistan had scaled down anti-militancy operations in its northwest to rush troops to the Line of
Control in Kashmir and the international border. All leave for armed forces personnel have been reportedly cancelled.

India has blamed Pakistan-based elements, including the outlawed Lashker-e-Tayiba, for the Mumbai attacks that killed over 180 people. It has asked Pakistan to crack down on these elements instead of resorting to 'war hysteria' to divert attention from the issue of countering terrorism.

Pakistan has said it is waiting for evidence from India to push forward its probe into the Mumbai incident.

[williams]

Little bit perspective for BR Jingos who want war now. Here is the timeline for 1971 conflict

Dhaka crack down - Mar 25th 1971
New Bangla govt in exile - Mar 27th 1971
Treaty of friendship with USSR - Aug 9th 1971
Emergency declared in Pakistan - Nov 23th 1971
Paki airforce launched attack - Dec 3rd 1971
Instrument of surrender signed - Dec 16th 1971

Interesting point is Pakis launched their attack first, while Desh took their time planning, talking, chai-biscuit etc.

It took 13 days for Desh forces to clean Paki cloak fighting on two sides with negative GDP growth and 7th fleet Uncle blackmail. So just be patient, things are moving in very good direction for a good cloak cleaning excercise. Remember IAF ran 4000 sorties in 1971 now IAF chief is talking about 5000 targets, I am very satisfied with the progress so far.

Some of the good indications are MMS and co are talking with Chiefs too often, Pakis are panicking to a level not seen before and I know Uncle this time is sending far too much of materials to Afghanistan by air than before (I wont mention the sources google it to connect the dots)

[Rahul M]

one bangla news channel quoting a retd IA officer says there is paki armoured movement across the border from barmer.

NOTE : I'm not disclosing Indian troop movements. paki troop movements are of course, fair game.

[RajaJi]

extra! extra!

Pranabda threatens pakistan saying next time India will not show restraint.

he says next attack will escalate the situation.

---
now none of these boot lickers and 'leaders' will have to face to the
next attack. it will be us - the card carrying lowly street dogs.

its time to start a next attack thread and figure out ways and means to
safeguard ourselves, since obviously the GoI is not interested.

"(Indian)Qaum demoralise ho chuki hai, isliye aggression zaruri hai" we don't even have an indian version of zaid hamid... letus hope tehreek-e-taliban sends its 500 suicide bombers to blow up the parliamentarians...inshaallah we will welcome them and so should the security apparatus...these mofos politicians and bureaucrats should be burnt alive...torched till death

I don't think we need an Indian version of stupid zaid hamid, the only way that guy gets away with saying so much BS is because those shows are actually paid by him, and there is no one to engage him in a discussion and challenge his theories, etc., The host of those shows are there just there to look beautiful and go along with all of the crap he spews out of his dirty mouth. I actually was doing some digging on this guy and it seems like he was involved in some cult that believed in a so called false prophet named yousuf ali, who was eventually convicted on blasphemy and homosexuality charges and sentenced to death by a lahore court. Word on the street was that this zaid dude was yousuf's right hand man and his homosexual lover and was named the new "imam-e-zamana" of the cult after yousuf's death. So, most of what he's saying could be due to some hidden agenda to get the pukistani people all worked up and support war with India and ofcourse be on the losing side of the conflict. So, maybe he's not really a friend of the puki people, instead he's just instigating them to go to war with India and wants to see them lose miserably, maybe it's a way for him to take revenge for his lover yousuf's death from the whole of pukistan. who knows?

[vsudhir]

If Zaid Hamid does any call-in-talk radiostuff, I'd surely like to call and say

'Zaid hamid miyan, aapki tarah main bhi asli paigambar Yousuf Ali ka maanney wala hoon...."

[ldev]

Remember IAF ran 4000 sorties in 1971 now IAF chief is talking about 5000 targets, I am very satisfied with the progress so far.

Some of the good indications are MMS and co are talking with Chiefs too often, Pakis are panicking to a level not seen before and I know Uncle this time is sending far too much of materials to Afghanistan by air than before (I wont mention the sources google it to connect the dots)

I agree. I think India will act based on its timetable and neither on public pressure nor war hysteria built up in the media. The other crucial issue is the timing of the next polls. I believe that the present GOI will go into the next elections with results having being achieved (either via terrorists being handed over or via military action). Since handing over terrorists is tantamount to Pakistan lying prostrate in front of India, their H&D will not permit that course of action, leaving India no choice but to go in for the military option.

The similarities with 71 are there. Then as now, India is getting its diplomatic support in place first, just as IG did then.

I would also believe that there is tremendous pressure on IAI to hand over the AWACSs asap to give the IAF a decisive view of the air battlefield.

[Surya]

Does anyone have Nic Robertsons email id (CNN)

Idiot is pushing the Paki line that they "need help to help he west otherwise they have ot move troops to the east".

Please send emails explaining it is all a Pak army charade and yet another level of blackmail

[negi]

^^ And Unkil will make sure that AWACS won't be delivered unless tensions between the two countries subside to normal .

[munna]

Little bit perspective for BR Jingos who want war now. Here is the timeline for 1971 conflict

Dhaka crack down - Mar 25th 1971
New Bangla govt in exile - Mar 27th 1971
Treaty of friendship with USSR - Aug 9th 1971
Emergency declared in Pakistan - Nov 23th 1971
Paki airforce launched attack - Dec 3rd 1971
Instrument of surrender signed - Dec 16th 1971

Interesting point is Pakis launched their attack first, while Desh took their time planning, talking, chai-biscuit etc.

It took 13 days for Desh forces to clean Paki cloak fighting on two sides with negative GDP growth and 7th fleet Uncle blackmail. So just be patient, things are moving in very good direction for a good cloak cleaning excercise. Remember IAF ran 4000 sorties in 1971 now IAF chief is talking about 5000 targets, I am very satisfied with the progress so far.

Exactly Williams! Off late I have been busy with other commitments and find that dear old BR has become a rant forum where we refuse to even think and have a sense of proportion while talking of our helplessness and what not. I hate the current regime from the depth of my heart but I believe till now they have played a sensible game. The following points might make the things clearer:

1) The initiative in this case of Paki strike on Mumbai rested with Pakistan and hence they might have been ready with their wares more than we were. Hence to lob one or two bums immediately across the border was neither required nor sufficient as a response to this Ch****a baazi from Pakistan.

2) Diplomacy is needed to prepare the ground and the atmosphere for a conflict. We do not only need to be responsible but also act as a responsible country before we go in for the final kill because that will come handy in later post conflict disputes and surrender. IG went to USA and got herself humiliated (by all internal accounts) right before the 1971 for the sake of opinion mobilisation. You have to talk to the other people to convey your intent and your case.

3) Whether we like or not Pakistan is a plot of land owned by an Army that has some influential backers to give it weapons and grub. To take out the whole Gandu Kamandu fauj we need to plan and prepare the operations and not merely go there sabre rattling and wasting our weapons to shift some sand dunes. We need to have a strategy and goal at hands and not some wishy washy H & D rhetoric to clobber our politicians with while going in for the war.

4) BY all indications the conflict is coming if we do not start it the Pakis will. Regular posters will remember that there was a thread by Shiv ji (the destroyer) in which the nuking of Indian cities was gamed even when there was no apparent conflict on the horizon. People who know the things were aware of some stupid shenanigans being undertaken by Pakis to take India down with them and that is why.......

To summarise a war WILL take place any time in the next year or so but what happens in it has to be decided now. The poor Maligned Mohan Singh and real PM sahib are some ones who are very potent guys if they set their sights on something! Rest all I can say is keep the faith.
(PS: IMVVHO and JMTPs apply)

[ldev]

^^ And Unkil will make sure that AWACS won't be delivered unless tensions between the two countries subside to normal .

In which case the potential is there of India suffering a few losses in its air operations. But I believe the potential for IAF dominance even without the AWACS is very high. Any such US act to stymie an Indian-Israeli transaction will be certainly deemed as unfriendly post hostilities. Also I am not sure that Israel will succumb to that pressure. Remember the prommpt Israeli response in terms of supplies during Kargil inspite of pressure from the US?

[sonabh]

in all of this, GOI has successfully broken down the morale

of indians.

[milindc]

Wow !! Vishnu som on NDTV live now

Are military strikes an option ?
will it solve terrorism
how will PGB be helpful at removing terrorism
A war will be costly.. thousands of crores
Are we ready for nuke war.

An analyst 'Gurmeet xxxx' says that we need to attack ammo dumps, bridges, and Paki army.
Vishnu asking Gurmeet how will attacking a Paki Jawan remove terrorism?

milind, is it gurmeet kanwal ?

Yes it is, just googled on him. Very eloquent and forceful.

[prahaar]

I would also believe that there is tremendous pressure on IAI to hand over the AWACSs asap to give the IAF a decisive view of the air battlefield.

Wouldnt the IAF require some time to get used to the platform? If AWACS is going to be a decider, this means no overt hostilities for 2009?

[ldev]

Prahar,

There are some knowns and some unknowns re the AWACSs.

1. The IAF has exercised with other Air Forces where IAF controllers have been on board the AWACs fielded by those air forces viz the Royal Air Force.

2. One can be fairly certain that the multi year fitting out of the Phalcon by IAI involves a lot of interaction with the IAF and DRDO. As such one can deduce that the IAF has been involved in the Phalcon project ever since the aircraft was delivered from Russia to Israel with IAF/DRDO staff based/visiting Israel

3. While the above may not constitute the IAF having fielded an AWACs, it is certainly better than not having one at all. In the history of warfare many weapons systems have been rushed into operations with very little operational experience. And if that system will give one side an edge, then that makes the case all the more stronger.

One other issue is that in the case of the Mumbai attack Jewish people including a Rabbi were killed at Nariman House. I dont think the Israelis will take this lying down and will support India by all possible means.