Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 26 Dec 2008 22:30

Pakistan Army's recent behaviour shows that they were indirectly involved in the Mumbai attacks. They really wanted to take away the focus of confronting US in the north and pull India into the conflict and so Pakistanis will not be scared of US.
In a way Pakistani Army wants to shift the confrontation with US to a war mongering idea with India. This would settle many of their local problems. Pakistan Army also wants to show that they are still in power regardless of the new president and pm. Pakistan's statement and other kinds of news make them exactly look like Saddam Hussein before his fall.

It is time for India to plan and strategically identify those places where the terrorists are exactly located and are attacked immediately when there is another attack in India. Israelis would help in terms of entering and eliminating terrorists in other countries without a war. India needs a mechanism for such intrusions and attacks.

No war but helping Pakistanis to fight terrorist in their own soil when they are not able or nor willing to fight their own!!!! Be friendly with democratic govt but fight the terror wherever they are!!!! Kashmir dialogue should continue with anyone who is willing to talk and address the issues but terrorism in any form has to be put off!!!

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 26 Dec 2008 22:31

Indirectly? TSPA is directly involved.

nsa_tanay · Post by **nsa_tanay** » 26 Dec 2008 22:53

Prabharakan who was resposible for IGs death. We truly are a soft state.

Please correct your self. I believe you meant RG .

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 26 Dec 2008 23:01

Foreign nationals at the Taj were particular targets of barbaric terrorists who first forced some of the guests to strip, then killed them

{sorry, but I am going to temporarily delete that inline image. People who want to gawk can do so at the news link, but those images are of humans, not Pakis, so some respect for the dead is needed. Indian media outlets are incapable of exercising judgement, but some care should be exercised by normal people.

The basic info contained in those images was contained in the report on REDIFF by the doctors who conducted post-mortem examinations, and for many of us there is no need for graphics to understand what the doctors were saying.

If you want more horrible stuff to gawk at mentally, consider that the transport of the bodies to Israel was delayed a long time - because they had to remove live grenades from inside the bodies.

If some other BRF mod wants to reverse this and exhibit those images, they are at the news link. But please do so after some thought. - narayanan}

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/15/ ... lling-them

By Santosh Mishra
Posted On Thursday, December 25, 2008 at 02:25:08 AM

Disturbing photographs made available to this newspapers by police sources indicate that several of the guests at the Taj Mahal Hotel during the siege November 26 were sexually humiliated by the terrorists and then shot dead.
....

"Even the Rabbi and his wife at Nariman House were sexually assaulted and their genitalia mutilated," said a senior officer of the investigating team, not wishing to be quoted.

“We have CCTV footage which reveals how these terrorists forced some of the guests who were holed up in restuarants to strip, but there is not evidence of rape,” he added.

These pictures, most of which we have refrained from printing, are in the records of the police and are now part of the investigation.

nsa_tanay · Post by **nsa_tanay** » 26 Dec 2008 23:12

joshvajohn wrote:Pakistan Army's recent behaviour shows that they were indirectly involved in the Mumbai attacks. They really wanted to take away the focus of confronting US in the north and pull India into the conflict and so Pakistanis will not be scared of US.
In a way Pakistani Army wants to shift the confrontation with US to a war mongering idea with India. This would settle many of their local problems. Pakistan Army also wants to show that they are still in power regardless of the new president and pm. Pakistan's statement and other kinds of news make them exactly look like Saddam Hussein before his fall.

It is time for India to plan and strategically identify those places where the terrorists are exactly located and are attacked immediately when there is another attack in India. Israelis would help in terms of entering and eliminating terrorists in other countries without a war. India needs a mechanism for such intrusions and attacks.

No war but helping Pakistanis to fight terrorist in their own soil when they are not able or nor willing to fight their own!!!! Be friendly with democratic govt but fight the terror wherever they are!!!! Kashmir dialogue should continue with anyone who is willing to talk and address the issues but terrorism in any form has to be put off!!!

@joshvajohn, Very well said.
I also believe that we can not eliminate individual extremists using Tank, Prithvi Missile, Su-30 (though that will create a deterrence).I believe the masterminds and their foot soldiers have already abandoned those camps and living in crowded city areas. A full scale war with TSP, will only destroy the terrorist infrastructure, but not those individuals involved. It will also bring the Pakisthani Army(PA) into front. Defeating the PA in military conflict, is neither desirable nor possible.

So what we need to do is to assassinate those individuals responsible, by either covert action or punitive precise strike for which we will not take responsibility. And talk of Peace with Pakistan. India wants peace with Pakistan.

ManishC · Post by **ManishC** » 26 Dec 2008 23:23

nsa_tanay wrote: Defeating the PA in military conflict, is neither desirable nor possible.

Wrong and Wrong. And what extremists? The 160 million denizens of "Pakisthan" are all fair game.

nsa_tanay · Post by **nsa_tanay** » 26 Dec 2008 23:57

ManishC wrote:
nsa_tanay wrote: Defeating the PA in military conflict, is neither desirable nor possible.
Wrong and Wrong. And what extremists? The 160 million denizens of "Pakisthan" are all fair game.

@ManishC, I can understand your emotional outburst. I feel that, you also don't believe that
160 million of Pakistanis are terrorists or Criminals.

If you think all of them are criminals, then you have to kill all the 160 millions in a war. Including all the 'real muslims', 20000 Hindus in Karachi, the Sikhs, the children, the women, the students, the elderly and the innocents. Can you do this ? If you can do so, then you are most welcome.

Please do not forget that they are nuclear armed. By waging a full scale war we have to sacrifice the growth and prosperity of our country. It will lead to unemployment and lead to partial social instability.

So war is not an option.

nsa_tanay · Post by **nsa_tanay** » 27 Dec 2008 00:43

sudeepj wrote:
By Santosh Mishra
Posted On Thursday, December 25, 2008 at 02:25:08 AM

Disturbing photographs made available to this newspapers by police sources indicate that several of the guests at the Taj Mahal Hotel during the siege November 26 were sexually humiliated by the terrorists and then shot dead.
....
"Even the Rabbi and his wife at Nariman House were sexually assaulted and their genitalia mutilated," said a senior officer of the investigating team, not wishing to be quoted.

What the Hell ????

bhavin · Post by **bhavin** » 27 Dec 2008 00:49

nsa_tanay wrote:
ManishC wrote: Wrong and Wrong. And what extremists? The 160 million denizens of "Pakisthan" are all fair game.
...........Including all the 'real muslims', 20000 Hindus in Karachi, the Sikhs, the children, the women, the students, the elderly and the innocents. Can you do this ? If you can do so, then you are most welcome.

Please do not forget that they are nuclear armed. By waging a full scale war we have to sacrifice the growth and prosperity of our country. It will lead to unemployment and lead to partial social instability.

So war is not an option.

nsa_tanay - War is always an option. It is upto the leadership to decide whether to exercise such option... If you want to protect your loved ones, you will have to sacrifice something sooner or later... it is only a matter of 'when' and not 'if'. Either way pukes are not going to rest till either they kill us or we kill them.... I really doubt we have to kill all pukes .... Essentially we have to do what Army did in Kashmir - Kill the HM commander everytime... in due course whoever became HM area commander knew he was under a death sentence and that to a certain extent was why HM started fading from the Kashmir scene....In the same way we need to start from the top and work our way down, I am sure by the time we are halfway through, the pukes will licking our behinds to save them.... Resolve is what is needed... Finally, it does not matter if we want war or not, if the pukes want war, they will make sure that we get it.... in other words, war is upon us whether we like it or not and we have to be prepared to meet them head on...

ManishC · Post by **ManishC** » 27 Dec 2008 01:06

nsa_tanay wrote:
ManishC wrote: Wrong and Wrong. And what extremists? The 160 million denizens of "Pakisthan" are all fair game.

@ManishC, I can understand your emotional outburst. I feel that, you also don't believe that
160 million of Pakistanis are terrorists or Criminals.

If you think all of them are criminals, then you have to kill all the 160 millions in a war. Including all the 'real muslims', 20000 Hindus in Karachi, the Sikhs, the children, the women, the students, the elderly and the innocents. Can you do this ? If you can do so, then you are most welcome.

Please do not forget that they are nuclear armed. By waging a full scale war we have to sacrifice the growth and prosperity of our country. It will lead to unemployment and lead to partial social instability.

So war is not an option.

nsa_tanay, you seem to revel in absolutes - total war, war no option, 160 million killed etc. For all the terrorist outrages over the year I have yet to see any compunction or remorse displayed on part of the civil society in Pakistan towards killing of innocents in India. For that alone if some Baki "women, children, students' ( Taliban = Students?

) are collateral damage in any covert or overt action is no skin off any Indian's nose.
Your concern for unemployment is entirely misplaced- the 72 virginians would be working overtime after we are done with the terrorist infestation to the West.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 27 Dec 2008 01:07

RaviBg wrote:What went wrong: The inside story

What went wrong: The inside story
Shishir Gupta

ARMY, NAVY AND NSG
...
Marcos first refused to enter the hotels without state authorisation, then claimed to have killed two terrorists inside Taj within hours of starting operations. That information was totally false...

That is incorrect. The Navy has explicitly denied that it demanded written authorization from the state government. The chief secretary himself has said that “I immediately got in touch, (between 10.30 and 11.00 p.m.) with Maj.General Hooda of the Army and Admiral Cheema of the Navy stationed in Mumbai who responded immediately and without any hesitation dispatched Army Columns and Naval Commandos to the spots indicated by us.” In other words, he seems perfectly happy with the Navy’s response, claims by the sensationalist media notwithstanding.

Also, at no point in the operation did the Marcos claim any kills. This so-called official claim was never reported - not in the print media, and not in the press brief which the Marcos gave. All they did was claim that two terrorists were still inside the Trident, on Nov 28. Shishir Gupta’s claim is plain wrong, or worse, an outright lie.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 27 Dec 2008 03:27

joshvajohn wrote:No war but helping Pakistanis to fight terrorist in their own soil when they are not able or nor willing to fight their own!!!! Be friendly with democratic govt but fight the terror wherever they are!!!! Kashmir dialogue should continue with anyone who is willing to talk and address the issues but terrorism in any form has to be put off!!!

Thats the root of the problem.

On one side, India says - "Kashmir is part of India."

On other side, it invites Pakistan to hold talks on Kashmir.
[/size]

I know this sounds so simple but imagine how this shows weakness and stupidity of Indian leaders. Have you seen Russia holding talks with Georgians and holding elections each year in Georgian connected regions and inviting BBC, NYT to prove their points to GORA audience?

Solution - Stop Sucking to Western and world audience and DECLARE - "NO NEGOTIATIONS on KASHMIR." This will solve the root problem. Let terrorists bring it on.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 27 Dec 2008 03:28

MMS should atleast abolish article 370 after mumbai attacks ATLEAST.

What is keeping Indian leaders away from this is the, cunningness of Western puppets(some Babus who copy "superior" western ideas) in Delhi that doing so will highlight Kashmir on international stage.

This false fear is keeping Indian leaders weak.
[/size]
Once again, history is repeating. Nehru did mistakes and blunders because of same fear of Shame. MMS is doing same!

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 27 Dec 2008 03:40

nsa_tanay wrote:
sudeepj wrote:

What the Hell ????

Final act of Haraam on the Kufr....psycho-insane Porkis....

SQL LDR. Ahuja
Lt. Saurabh Kalia
Late Rabbi and his Wife

The pattern is clear, make captive, torture and mutilate the Kafirs

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Dec 2008 03:43

war is the only way to close the chapter k. we can't be storming on this issue for ever and ever, and no calm at all.. how many wars, and still we have left the pakis undisturbed.. breaking up pakistan is the only option. destroy them such that they dont exists as one unit.

let me say this.. we don't need to use our nuclear weapons.. call the countries who have been attacked. israel alone is enough to drop the bombs. they are ready to do it if our babooze says yes. just let them..

we have better history to read about.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 27 Dec 2008 03:47

SaiK wrote:war is the only way to close the chapter k. we can't be storming on this issue for ever and ever, and no calm at all.. how many wars, and still we have left the pakis undisturbed.. breaking up pakistan is the only option. destroy them such that they dont exists as one unit.

Right....Break them into small pieces and make them fight amongst themselves, "Ummah Wars", make sure they never unite...

Sort of like how the Bahmani Nawabs fought amongst themselves, only then they united did it mean trouble to the Vijayanagara Kingdom (Battle of Talikota)

Divide and Rule..Divide and Rule..

archan · Post by **archan** » 27 Dec 2008 05:20

SaiK wrote:war is the only way to close the chapter k.

Indeed. It seems to me that Bharat will have to eventually choose between giving up the part of Kaskmir it has or fighting a war. The nation has to make the choice sooner or later.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 27 Dec 2008 06:06

Archan, the choice has NEVER been "give up Kashmir or go to war". To the Pakis, "Kashmir" includes Delhi, Mumbai and all the rest of India.

Just consider: what will the Paki Army do the year AFTER they (Allah forbid) get "Kashmir"? Disband? Retire? There has never been a "K" problem - it has ALWAYS been a "P" problem, and that needs to be solved. Dis-solved, actually.

samuel.chandra · Post by **samuel.chandra** » 27 Dec 2008 06:39

Couldn't agree with you more. We cannot avoid a war. Its a matter of when. They are at war... while we hope that they will be somehow mollified. we try to see if we were wrong somewhere. maybe its their religious seminaries. maybe its their leaders. maybe its their school books. we hope that somehow, someday they will see reason. nothing of that sort is going to happen. they will not buy our rational arguments. hasn't happened until now. don't think it will happen in future. They are the bully we had in school who is always falling behind in class and always hated the successful kids. We have to understand that they are NEVER going to be okay with our success. We have two options:
- go down to their level by stopping our progress. not doing anything to stop their terror will also ensure that our economy fails.
- beat the crap out of them and keep threatening them and subverting them. it has to be a continuous process. there cannot be any letup or intermediate bhai-chara. i suspect, we will find a very pliant neighbor if we adapt the second strategy...that bankrupt nation has no other choice...all the peace talk started happening because they now know, we are serious.

bhavin wrote: nsa_tanay - War is always an option. It is upto the leadership to decide whether to exercise such option... If you want to protect your loved ones, you will have to sacrifice something sooner or later... it is only a matter of 'when' and not 'if'. Either way pukes are not going to rest till either they kill us or we kill them.... I really doubt we have to kill all pukes .... Essentially we have to do what Army did in Kashmir - Kill the HM commander everytime... in due course whoever became HM area commander knew he was under a death sentence and that to a certain extent was why HM started fading from the Kashmir scene....In the same way we need to start from the top and work our way down, I am sure by the time we are halfway through, the pukes will licking our behinds to save them.... Resolve is what is needed... Finally, it does not matter if we want war or not, if the pukes want war, they will make sure that we get it.... in other words, war is upon us whether we like it or not and we have to be prepared to meet them head on...

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 27 Dec 2008 08:56

Another sign of meticulous planning. The sickest, most brutal and inhuman among the pigs were probably given special indocrination and tasked to the Taj and Nariman House with instructions on how exactly to cause maximum humiliation and outrage. The sexual mutilation thingie is a well known paki bestial character trait and signature but what was it designed to cause besides extreme revulsion toward pakis in general? Is it not a self goal that makes it mentally easier for their enemies to squash them underfoot without mercy? Not that I'm complaining.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Dec 2008 09:15

The Kashmir gangrene has spread through all the veins and tentacles of TSP. At one point, they thought that the green crescent is all but set to fly over Srinagar (en route of course to the red fort in New Delhi). Thus, TSP as a nation will not surive if ever they cleanse themselves of the Kashmir disese. Its a fight to the finish.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Dec 2008 09:30

Have the gurus like N^3, R-man, Ramana, Shiv etc analyzed this, but why on earth would TSP have attacked the Jews at Nariman house? I mean what were they thinking by inviting the wrath of Israel (and Unkil)? Or is it the case that the foot soldiers could not control thier blood thirst of Jews once they had them in their grasp despite ISI/TSPA telling them to only go on a killing binge of us SDREs?

My view is that the initial reports of the TSP pigs asking US/UK nationals to show their passports was a bit of clever misinformation from someone within Indian establishment so as to draw the ire of Unkil and his lackeys towards TSP. But TSP quickly did a mid course correction (and once again upstaging India through stallite phones and SMS) and told the pigs to lay off the westerners. Hence we saw their mass exodus from the hotels, and thereafter it was the usual vile India alleges, TSP denies propaganda on western media. I would also speculate that if US wants to, it could make public every piece of slam dunk evidence it has of TSP involvement (as if India hasn't provided enough), I mean the very act of US saying so will be evidence enough to the world and TSP, but it has chosen once again to protect TSPA/ISI after their citizens were spared and the whole gory act was reduced to standard US geo-political strategy: battle between "South Asia rivals'.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 27 Dec 2008 09:33

I am watching TimesNow with a sense of despondency and shame: Pranabda urging his 'TSP friends' (his exact words) to calm down.

.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Dec 2008 09:39

My view is that the initial reports of the TSP pigs asking US/UK nationals to show their passports was a bit of clever misinformation from someone within Indian establishment so as to draw the ire of Unkil and his lackeys towards TSP.

no, this was reported by people held inside and some survivors to their relatives by phone and was first aired on BBC IIRC.

rest of the westerners, along with desis who were in their rooms were separated from the terrorists by the action of security forces, it was NOT an act of 'let go' by the jihadis.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2008 09:45

CRamS wrote: why on earth would TSP have attacked the Jews at Nariman house? I mean what were they thinking by inviting the wrath of Israel (and Unkil)? Or is it the case that the foot soldiers could not control thier blood thirst of Jews once they had them in their grasp despite ISI/TSPA telling them to only go on a killing binge of us SDREs?.

Why CRams - has your visit to desh made you a psec?

You have painstakingly mentioned every name and acronym except the one that matters : Islamic indoctrination and anti-semitism.

You read about the training these men had.

Get up
Prayer
Sleep
Prayer
Training
Prayer
Sleep
Prayer
Sleep

The prayer sessions were surely not aimed at appeasing the ghost of Marilyn Monroe.

These people may have been Pakistanis, but Pakistanis are Muslims first and their worldview rotates around Islam and all threats to Islam. If you listen to the rhetoric of Paki Mullahs and of even the Pakistani establishment - the idea is to hit India constantly in every possible manner with no thought about any consequences.

This method has some benefits - it operates on the same frequency as the dear ol' US of A does - i.e belief in shock and awe.

The only drawback is that shock and awe is not enough unless you can kill enough people in the first pass. But the secular, scientific, rational, rich, world-leading superpower has not figured that out yet - so why imagine that some Islamic indoctrination sessions will unearth simple truths?

archan · Post by **archan** » 27 Dec 2008 09:59

narayanan wrote:Archan, the choice has NEVER been "give up Kashmir or go to war". To the Pakis, "Kashmir" includes Delhi, Mumbai and all the rest of India.

Just consider: what will the Paki Army do the year AFTER they (Allah forbid) get "Kashmir"? Disband? Retire? There has never been a "K" problem - it has ALWAYS been a "P" problem, and that needs to be solved. Dis-solved, actually.

Indeed. The caliphate will not stop, Inshallah.

The suckers will have to be eliminated or completely disbanded for the Indian nation to have any semblance of peace. However, I have tried to say this fact in the company of just my extended family and have been met with disbelieving eyes. I have restricted myself to Kashmir for now (when talking in person to people) and try to avoid sounding like a "fear monger", "conspiracy theorist" because I need those people to be "with me" so I have a hope to slowly show them the light. I guess that restraint came through in that post as well.

nsa_tanay · Post by **nsa_tanay** » 27 Dec 2008 10:13

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 898659.cms

Pak textbooks build hate culture against India

The empowerment of terror in Pakistan has not happened overnight. This is the logical culmination of the politics and policies pursued by
Pakistan for years now.

Terrorism in Pakistan has its roots in the culture
of hate and the ethos of inequality on the ground of religious faith, leading to their being deeply ingrained in the Pakistani psyche and mindset.

One factor that has played a crucial role in creating this culture of hate is the educational policy of the government of Pakistan pursued since 1977. The officially prescribed textbooks, especially for school students, are full of references that promote hate against India in general, and Hindus in particular.

A cursory glance at Pakistani school textbooks - especially the compulsory subjects like Pakistan studies and social studies - gives an idea of how history has been distorted and a garbled version prescribed to build this mindset and attitude.

The objective of Pakistan's education policy has been defined thus in the preface to a Class 6 book: "Social studies have been given special importance in educational policy so that Pakistan's basic ideology assumes the shape of a way of life, its practical enforcement is assured, the concept of social uniformity adopts a practical form and the whole personality of the individual is developed." This statement leaves no doubt that "social uniformity", not national unity, is a part of Pakistan's basic ideology.

The Class 5 book has this original discovery about Hindu help to bring British rule to India
: "The British had the objective to take over India and to achieve this, they made Hindus join them and Hindus were very glad to side with the British. After capturing the subcontinent, the British began on the one hand the loot of all things produced in this area, and on the other, in conjunction with Hindus, to greatly suppress the Muslims."

The Std VIII book says, "Their (Muslim saints) teachings dispelled many superstitions of the Hindus and reformed their bad practices. Thereby Hindu religion of the olden times came to an end."

On Indo-Pak wars, the books give detailed descriptions and openly eulogize ‘jihad' and ‘shahadat' and urge students to become ‘mujahids' and martyrs and leave no room for future friendship and cordial relations with India.

According to a Class 5 book, "In 1965, the Pakistani army conquered several areas of India, and when India was on the point of being defeated, she requested the United Nations to arrange a ceasefire. After 1965, India, with the help of Hindus living in East Pakistan, instigated the people living there against the people of West Pakistan, and finally invaded East Pakistan in December 1971. The conspiracy resulted in the separation of East Pakistan from us. All of us should receive military training and be prepared to fight the enemy."

The book prescribed for higher secondary students makes no mention of the uprising in East Pakistan in 1971 or the surrender by more than 90,000 Pakistani soldiers. Instead, it claims, "In the 1971 India-Pakistan war, the Pakistan armed forces created new records of bravery and the Indian forces were defeated everywhere."

The students of Class 3 are taught that "Muhammad Ali (Jinnah) felt that Hindus wanted to make Muslims their slaves and since he hated slavery, he left the Congress". At another place it says, "The Congress was actually a party of Hindus. Muslims felt that after getting freedom, Hindus would make them their slaves."

And this great historic discovery is taught to Std V students, "Previously, India was part of Pakistan."

Commenting on this literature that spreads hate, leading Pakistani educationist Tariq Rahman wrote, "It is a fact that the textbooks cannot mention Hindus without calling them cunning, scheming, deceptive or something equally insulting. Students are taught and made to believe that Pakistan needs strong and aggressive policies against India or else Pakistan will be annihilated by it."

What a country yaar ??

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Dec 2008 10:18

tanay, follow both the links in here.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 36#p591136

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 27 Dec 2008 11:07

time is ripe for india to renounce "no first use" policy
but alas; the stupidity of sonia's sandal lickers (SSL) will
continue......

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Dec 2008 11:16

kobe wrote:time is ripe for india to renounce "no first use" policy
but alas; the stupidity of sonia's sandal lickers (SSL) will
continue......

Fu/NFU are both useless if you are not going to use your nukes.

Has the US, with its first use policy, had the cojones to use its nukes?

What use then is making empty noises. We might as well get all Indian men to stand at the border, unzip our flies and wave our willies at Pakiland

RajaJi · Post by **RajaJi** » 27 Dec 2008 11:17

Guys, I don't know if someone has mentioned this already, but my apologies if it's already been discussed. But I remember that during the attacks there were reports of an employee of the taj who had SMSed his family that he was shot by a co-worker who was also one of the terrorists and had been working at the hotel for the past few months etc., and also there were reports that there was alot of ammunition and supplies stockpiled on one of the rooms of the hotels, IIRC it was a room on the sixth floor. Also, there were initial reports of the authorities catching alive 3-4 piglets. And there were a few eye witnesses who mentioned that some of the terrorists looked foreigners, i'm guessing they meant fairer skin color. So, whatever happened to those reports? How did the terrorists stockpiled stuff in a room if all of them had arrived simultaneously on boat and none of them had been at the hotel prior to the attacks? And what about that "terrorist employee" who shot one of his colleagues at the hotel? I'm sure if he had been working there for some time the authorities can easily find out his residential address in Mumbai and thus, it may lead to more people who could have provided local support to the terrorists. And, what about the initial reports of a few (3-4) terrorists caught alive? Whatever happened to these news stories?

samuel.chandra · Post by **samuel.chandra** » 27 Dec 2008 11:23

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/27m ... ocracy.htm

Prafool.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 27 Dec 2008 11:43

The Subtle Subversion
A. H. Nayyar and Ahmad Salim

This report is the result of a study conducted by SDPI with the help of a number of
educationists and concerned citizens of the country in the year 2002. The study looked
into the then in force curriculum documents and school textbooks as well as those
curriculum documents that were most recently formulated but had not been implemented
yet. The objective of the study was to identify problematic contents of textbooks and to
ascertain if the curriculum formulation was the source of such contents. The subjects
chosen were those which can offer a greater space for political and ideological manipulation.States quite often use formal education as a tool to disseminate and perpetuate their political messages. In the Pakistani context, the use of education as a political tool intensified after 1971 mainly due to the demands of redefining Pakistan after the political crisis of East Pakistan and emergence of Pakistan as a truncated country. The military government of General Zia ul Haq after the coup in 1977 had its own problem of legitimacy, which it tried to guise in an overarching quest for Islamization of the society.

Education was among the first of its victims. Religious political parties became enthusiastic partners in this quest. In the educational sphere, this amounted to a distorted narration of history, factual inaccuracies, inclusion of hate material, a disproportionate inclusion of Islamic studies in other disciplines, glorification of war and the military, gender bias, etc. Subsequent governments either failed to check these harmful deviations, or willingly perpetuated them.

This study is by no means the first to point out these issues. The civil society of Pakistan
reacted almost immediately to the Zia government’s policies of Islamization of education.
A number of educationists wrote articles, research papers and books highlighting the
way in which the educational space was being usurped by blatant indoctrination. The first
question they addressed was regarding distortions in history, and the contributions of
Pervez Hoodbhoy, K. K. Aziz, I. A. Rahman, Mubarak Ali, and A. H. Nayyar were
noteworthy. The first known work on the deliberate distortion of history for reasons was from Pervez Hoodbhoy and A. H. Nayyar, pointing out the policy directive that had brought about the change and the subsequent distortions entering the Pakistan Studies textbooks, the foremost target of the process of Islamization of education. Soon thereafter, the Lahore-based Society for the Advancement of Education (SAHE) produced a report in 1986 on Pakistan’s curriculum based on a countrywide consultation involving a number of eminent educationists of the country.Mubarak Ali, through his thought provoking works, brought forth the distortions, inaccuracies and biases in textbooks through his books, newspaper articles and booklets both in English and Urdu.

K.K. Aziz also pointed out errors in history textbooks in a chapter of his book Historians
of Pakistan, published in the early 90s5. In another famous book on the subject, Murder
of History in Pakistan, Professor Aziz analysed in detail 66 school textbooks and
identified historical errors and inaccuracies.

Renowned human rights activist and journalist, I. A. Rahman has also touched upon the
issue of historical distortion in textbooks regarding the tragedy of 1971 (Fall of Dhaka).
The earliest work on gender bias in textbooks emerged from Simorgh and Aurat
Foundation, NGO’s that specialize in women related issues.

In 1993 Rubina Saigol conducted a content analysis of language and social studies
textbooks to find out the amount of hate material, and nationalistic and militaristic
ideologies packed in the textbooks. In her Ph.D. thesis in the early nineties and
subsequently in her various research papers, books and monographs, she conducted a
detailed analysis of social studies, civics, history and Pakistan Studies textbook. She
also identified such additional categories of problems in curriculum and textbooks as
'glorification of the military', and did a comparative analysis of textbooks from the pre-
Ayub period, Ayub era and the Bhutto era.

Pakistani scholars themselves indicate the genesis of the mindset.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 27 Dec 2008 12:17

narayanan wrote:Archan, the choice has NEVER been "give up Kashmir or go to war". To the Pakis, "Kashmir" includes Delhi, Mumbai and all the rest of India.

Just consider: what will the Paki Army do the year AFTER they (Allah forbid) get "Kashmir"? Disband? Retire? There has never been a "K" problem - it has ALWAYS been a "P" problem, and that needs to be solved. Dis-solved, actually.

Yes ! Very right ! we give away Kashmir then , they start creating probvlem from the kasmir border to India rather than POK border ! We will be taking the trouble close to Delhi then !

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 27 Dec 2008 14:12

why on earth would TSP have attacked the Jews at Nariman house?

They did the throat-slitting act on Daniel Pearl too. In the Nariman house case, they were clearly showing that THEY (clearly Pakistan Army) are the True Soldiers of Islam, not the weak-bladder civilians in Islamagood. I think they had reached the stage where they needed to get out of Waziristan, and this was the way to create that excuse.

Sickos! Clearly, the proper response would be a joint Israeli-Indian pulverizing of downtown I'bad and 'Pind and the mansions of the generals.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 27 Dec 2008 14:46

joshvajohn wrote:Pakistan Army's recent behaviour shows that they were indirectly involved in the Mumbai attacks. They really wanted to take away the focus of confronting US in the north and pull India into the conflict and so Pakistanis will not be scared of US.
In a way Pakistani Army wants to shift the confrontation with US to a war mongering idea with India. This would settle many of their local problems. Pakistan Army also wants to show that they are still in power regardless of the new president and pm. Pakistan's statement and other kinds of news make them exactly look like Saddam Hussein before his fall.

It is time for India to plan and strategically identify those places where the terrorists are exactly located and are attacked immediately when there is another attack in India. Israelis would help in terms of entering and eliminating terrorists in other countries without a war. India needs a mechanism for such intrusions and attacks.

Another attack? We should wait for another attack? And I thought I had heard it all.

I'm sure that when then next attack happens & our fellow brothers and sisters are ripped to pieces, sexually assaulted before being shot dead in cold blood and hundreds of kids are orphaned, YOU my dear friend will be singing the same tune again. Are you alright with the thought that we should sacrifice some more Indians before acting? Is 25 years of bloodied history not enough for you that you're longing for more?

We do not need Israel's help, we are 20 times their size, it's a shame that we Indians are looking for help to solve our own problems. Israelis fight their own fight, we don't go to fight it for them. It's a time of reckoning, either we act now or we might very well submit to Pakistanis.

As far as India needing 'a mechanism for such intrusions and attacks', then let me inform you that we already have a mechanism & resources in place, they are called the Armed Forces of the Indian Union and our stockpile of Nuclear Weapons.

No war but helping Pakistanis to fight terrorist in their own soil when they are not able or nor willing to fight their own!!!! Be friendly with democratic govt but fight the terror wherever they are!!!! Kashmir dialogue should continue with anyone who is willing to talk and address the issues but terrorism in any form has to be put off!!!

Please get over this loser mentality. Why should the Kashmir dialogue continue? Give me one good reason why we should be engaged in a dialogue with a terrorist state, that's hell bent on destroying India & has made no effort to hide their agenda. It's not Gandhi era anymore. You 'request' them to put off terrorism, and they will do it? Is it as simple? Vajpayee dragged his arthritis ridden knees all the way to Lahore on a friggin bus, we got Kargil in return. Smell the coffee, my dear friend, Pakistan is our enemy numero uno. There can be no talks possible, no peace, no solution unless you go to the root of the problem & solve it for once & for all. And that solution is total annihilation of Pakistan with nuclear weapons, I don't mind my own family & I getting fried in a counter strike on Delhi, but the fact is that the more you wait the costlier the war will get. Finish it now, forever.

nsa_tanay wrote:@joshvajohn, Very well said.
I also believe that we can not eliminate individual extremists using Tank, Prithvi Missile, Su-30 (though that will create a deterrence).I believe the masterminds and their foot soldiers have already abandoned those camps and living in crowded city areas. A full scale war with TSP, will only destroy the terrorist infrastructure, but not those individuals involved. It will also bring the Pakisthani Army(PA) into front. Defeating the PA in military conflict, is neither desirable nor possible.

So what we need to do is to assassinate those individuals responsible, by either covert action or punitive precise strike for which we will not take responsibility. And talk of Peace with Pakistan. India wants peace with Pakistan.

It's a mistake to consider that terrorists (what's with the use of the word 'extremist'?) are fringe element in Porkistan. Every single one of those 160 million pigs is an anti-Indian brainwashed jehadi, old, young, children, women notwithstanding.

We did'nt waste billions of dollars to buy our T-90s, MKIs & develop Prithvis and Agnis, to store them in a museum. Military equipment is intended to be used in battles, in wars. It's not about individual terrorists, it's about a terrorist state. Do not see Pakistan as a country with 160 million people, see it as a individual terrorist, and we need to inflict maximum damage on this terrorist.

Oh & please enlighten me, how is it impossible & undesirable to defeat the Puki Army? Too much of WKKing perhaps?

nsa_tanay wrote:War is not an option.

War is always an option, and if we had used this option before those Pigs got nuclear blueprints from the Chinkis, we'd not be discussing this. No use waiting for these pigs to get their act together, their existence is based on hatred towards India, that will never change, it simply cannot be done.

archan · Post by **archan** » 27 Dec 2008 20:40

Dhimmitude in full swing! I have noticed NDTV has been trying extra haaaard to "prove" why we cannot defeat terrorism by defeating Pakistan.
Debunking military options against Pak
Snippets of the great "Hindu" reasoning:

But the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have proven that conventional military strikes cannot defeat a determined terrorist force. In the current situation in the subcontinent a military option may achieve very little.

Is the government prepared to launch air strikes on the territory of a country which is armed with nuclear weapons and where there is no clarity on who controls the weapons, civilians or the military?

In the event of a Pakistani counter-attack, which is entirely expected, a battle to target terrorists could well turn into a full-scale war between India and Pakistan. That would be fought using tanks, warships and fighter aircraft. How would that thwart terrorism?

Does the average Indian have no idea about complicity of Pakistani army with the terrorists?

Let us see if they publish my comment.

"In the event of a Pakistani counter-attack, which is entirely expected, a battle to target terrorists could well turn into a full-scale war between India and Pakistan. That would be fought using tanks, warships and fighter aircraft. How would that thwart terrorism?"
If someone studies the reports coming out of Swat and FATA, it is the Pakistani army that is demolishing the civilian houses, flattening villages, killing Shias and counting dollars based on the body count. They are paying terrorists like Fazlullah to not attack the army. It is naiive to assume that Pakistani army does not support the terrorists, whom they think of as a line of defense against India.
The Indians can hide their heads in the sand but sooner or later they will realize that even if they give up Kashmir the demands will continue. Afterall who will rest easy after a "victory" against a strong state? the people who think that they have ruled us for 1000 years, want to get back their rule. The sooner Indians realize it, the less the number of people who will be blown into pieces in India.

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 27 Dec 2008 21:56

time for my weekly analysis and summary:

- dawood mofo boar pig hog ibrahim has been shifted to islamabad just before his 53rd birthday
- his niece getting married in pakistan

- i believe india should not waste commando lives for raiding terrorist camps (lets say if we loose 40 commandos to kill 400 pakis, its not worth it, the ratio need to be much higher (for example only if 40 to 40,000 then it makes sense), commandos should be used to disrupt the lifelines of pakistan, burst a dam in north pakistan, blow up a port in gwadar, destroy a gas field in baluchistan, gees, there is nothing else worth melting)

OR:
- india should nuke pakistan to ashes (wishful thinking but at least the thought of it helps me do yoga peacefully)

Om Shanti (nuke pak), Shanti (nuke pak), Shanti (nuke pak)

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 27 Dec 2008 23:38

I am sorry but I disagree. These photographs are necessary to bring the horror of barbarism home to the international public at large. I want to see Condi Rice calling for restrain the day when this pics (of US citizens) are printed on front page of US newspapers. A picture is worth a million worlds. If pictures were irrelevant then there would not have been TV media or even films. I think Indian Govt should release all such pics of victims and tell the world that this comes from ignoring the pain of the parents of Saurabh Kalia.

sudeepj wrote:Foreign nationals at the Taj were particular targets of barbaric terrorists who first forced some of the guests to strip, then killed them

{sorry, but I am going to temporarily delete that inline image. People who want to gawk can do so at the news link, but those images are of humans, not Pakis, so some respect for the dead is needed. Indian media outlets are incapable of exercising judgement, but some care should be exercised by normal people.

The basic info contained in those images was contained in the report on REDIFF by the doctors who conducted post-mortem examinations, and for many of us there is no need for graphics to understand what the doctors were saying.

If you want more horrible stuff to gawk at mentally, consider that the transport of the bodies to Israel was delayed a long time - because they had to remove live grenades from inside the bodies.

If some other BRF mod wants to reverse this and exhibit those images, they are at the news link. But please do so after some thought. - narayanan}

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/15/ ... lling-them

By Santosh Mishra
Posted On Thursday, December 25, 2008 at 02:25:08 AM

Disturbing photographs made available to this newspapers by police sources indicate that several of the guests at the Taj Mahal Hotel during the siege November 26 were sexually humiliated by the terrorists and then shot dead.
....

"Even the Rabbi and his wife at Nariman House were sexually assaulted and their genitalia mutilated," said a senior officer of the investigating team, not wishing to be quoted.

“We have CCTV footage which reveals how these terrorists forced some of the guests who were holed up in restuarants to strip, but there is not evidence of rape,” he added.

These pictures, most of which we have refrained from printing, are in the records of the police and are now part of the investigation.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 28 Dec 2008 00:00

sudeepj wrote:Foreign nationals at the Taj were particular targets of barbaric terrorists who first forced some of the guests to strip, then killed them

{sorry, but I am going to temporarily delete that inline image. People who want to gawk can do so at the news link, but those images are of humans, not Pakis, so some respect for the dead is needed. Indian media outlets are incapable of exercising judgement, but some care should be exercised by normal people.

The basic info contained in those images was contained in the report on REDIFF by the doctors who conducted post-mortem examinations, and for many of us there is no need for graphics to understand what the doctors were saying.

If you want more horrible stuff to gawk at mentally, consider that the transport of the bodies to Israel was delayed a long time - because they had to remove live grenades from inside the bodies.

If some other BRF mod wants to reverse this and exhibit those images, they are at the news link. But please do so after some thought. - narayanan}

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article/15/ ... lling-them

Narayanan

I did not post that picture lightly or accidentally. I did so deliberately, my reasoning being

1) A picture is stronger than a thousand words. Imagine the kind of reaction across the world to PTI like reports from Abu Ghraib prison, without the pictures. In fact, there *were* reports in the Iraqi press about what was happening beyond those walls, but no one took those (brown vernacular speaking folks) seriously until the pictures emerged.

2) As long as there is no picture, any news articles you publish can be dismissed as 'Indian propaganda' not just by our westerns neighbors but also by other folks. (And with good reason, how this same press behaved through this entire crisis is evident to all).

3) The dead did not just die.. They were brutally slain. Not telling their story and wrapping oneself in a faux politeness that refuses to acknowledge in all its grotesqueness, what happened, is not being respectful, its being dishonest. The pictures are graphic, but worse was done to us. We need to tell the world what was done to us.

4) The pics may not be required if there is agreement in India and in the world, about the nature of Islamism, but unfortunately there is not. I am tired of Islamists and leftists shoving in my face pics from all over, without any pics that show their own true nature.

This picture is the *only one* (apart from a few other pictures from CST) that bring to the fore the pitiful nature of what happened in Mumbai. They *need* to be shown to the world. Please undelete the link, in fact, if possible, please archive those pics at the start of every Pakistan related thread.