Indian Autos Thread

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 16 Dec 2008 06:02

People didn't want to call them "cars", that's why I guess.

Can't say though. In the dark ages without the light of the web, every product, including the military equipment, was claimed to be indegeneous. It is my GUESS that the sierra and estate were original designs onlee.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 16 Dec 2008 07:23

The TATA estate was a TATA 207 pick up truck in poor fancy dress. It was billed as a station wagon.

It had a ladder chasis which trucks have, a diesel engine with NVM appropriate for !ahem! trucks. All Estate parts and passenger boday parts vibrated with the engine running.

The fit and finish was poor, infact, in my opinion the venerable TATA 1210 finish was better. Could be the small Estate numbers did not merit investment in superior tooling.

12 months down the line the vibration's reduced a new Estate to a state where one look would promt you to say "Look what the cat dragged in and who did that to that poor thing".

The Estate learning experience served TATA well in the quest to build perosnal transportation vehicles. Take it as an initiative which enabled TATA to transition from a purely commercial to also becoming a personal passenger vehicle manufacturer. It deserves some place in TATA history for this reason.

Can't say much about the Sierra except that it too has a ladder chasis but some 4WD's do. Cars have a monocoque chasiss.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 16 Dec 2008 09:23

Yogi_G wrote:hey all...I have had this question for a long time now....It is said that the Indica is the first indigenous car.

That saying is wrong. The first indigenous car is the Standard Gazel, which came out in 1971. We had one and I learned to drive on it! Before the maruti-suzuki came out, this model was easily the fastest from a standing start of all the car models in India.
http://www.geocities.com/greatkalam/gazel.htm

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 16 Dec 2008 10:40

ArmenT, your link itself shows how much indegeneous the Gazel was

The Standard Gazel replaced the Herald in 1971. This car turned out to be one of the few short-lived and less-known cars of the Indian motoring Industry. Though the Indica now stakes claim as the first indigenously built car, it is actually the Gazel that holds this coveted distinction. Naseer Hussein designed this important car after Standard parted ways with Triumph (England) in 1970. The body was by and large based on the 4-door Herald (Herald Mk3) but sported a distinctive front and rear end design. The chassis was also from the Herald but was slightly re-engineered to accommodate a relatively complex rear suspension consisting of a rigid axle with coil over shock rear springs and a unique anti-roll bar, replacing the Herald’s 3-part ‘swing’ axle that was known to be allergic to Indian roads. The Gazel was otherwise mechanically similar to the Herald, with the same 4-cylinder 948cc engine, plus the same front suspension and steering mechanicals. The interior was completely re-designed with a new one-piece painted fibreglass dash with more modern looks plus a spacious bench front seat, replacing the Herald’s bucket seats thus providing a higher seating position with better visibility. Production of this car stopped after 1977, following which Standard Motors never produced cars again for the next few years until the Standard 2000.

By that token, the Amby Mk2 was the first indy car!! HM did change the grille and seats didn't they?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Dec 2008 10:50

my fav car is the amphibious 3 wheel Badal. would pay a fair price to own a restored
instance. it was based on a british design. india + failed british designs are like N and S
poles of magnets.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 16 Dec 2008 19:42

I remember seeing the car in the movie Ram Balram. The Scene had the two heros waddling the car through knee deep water.Was it really amphibious?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Dec 2008 20:18

we have a special meaning to the definition of "indigenous".

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 22 Dec 2008 09:24

I don't believe the Birla story. Probably the revese happened. The engineers must have designed al all new bodyset and trim, and Birla must have shot it down, demanding only cosmetic changes.

I mean, anyone, including the pigeons and bats infest the roof and the dogs occupy the canteen backyard, who passed through an engg college would try to innovate to some extent. It is my unshaken belief that it took ironclad shackles from the banias to prevent them from building out of ambys and fiats.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 22 Dec 2008 16:52

Seems TATA is loosing mony on the Jaguar purchase.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... nto+Jaguar'

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 24 Dec 2008 00:26

does anybody know why TATA named their SUV "Sierra"? I do not find any relevance to matrubhumi.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 24 Dec 2008 01:14

pandyan wrote:
Dileep wrote:ArmenT, your link itself shows how much indegeneous the Gazel was

By that token, the Amby Mk2 was the first indy car!! HM did change the grille and seats didn't they?

apparently birla commissioned his top engineers to modify amby....all they did was bring in some cosmetic changes and a new name AVON (as in a-one)....birla was so pissed off at this bunch (while breaking his head for assembling this team in the first place) and asked them to rename it as NOVA (spelled backwards).

still remember the old cars....
herald, standard (sharp as well as round end), moris minor (we call it the frog car....hated it so much usually shoved a lot of sand and rocks thru the silencer), plymouth, impala...

I love the car. Nothing more comfortable on Indian roads. The back seat was very very comfortable. Nothing like taking a nap on the amby backseat.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Dec 2008 09:10

I don't take the 'amby more comfy onlee' argument either. Someone made that up for H&D purpose, and everyone had been parroting it ever since, probably because there is nothing else good to tell about it.

I mean, it is a flat bench seat with decent spring action, that is all. IMO, it doesn't support your back properly, and cuts of circulation to the calfs. It has a lot of spring action, so that the bumps sent up by the "suspension" gets damped out a bit.

Maybe in comparison with the archrival Fiat, and the cramped Maruti. That's it.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 24 Dec 2008 09:52

Dileep wrote:I don't take the 'amby more comfy onlee' argument either. Someone made that up for H&D purpose, and everyone had been parroting it ever since, probably because there is nothing else good to tell about it.

I mean, it is a flat bench seat with decent spring action, that is all. IMO, it doesn't support your back properly, and cuts of circulation to the calfs. It has a lot of spring action, so that the bumps sent up by the "suspension" gets damped out a bit.

Maybe in comparison with the archrival Fiat, and the cramped Maruti. That's it.

In my younger days I used to hear statements about how other countries were unable to "copy" its design and all that cr@p...these days such statements are heard in Pakistan abt their Chinese Designed Pakistani Assembled Al Khalid and JF-17 tanks

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Dec 2008 11:33

Well, everyone believed those crap before the information revolution happened. Satellite TV and internet really opened the horizons.

But still some crap like the amby's back seat linger on.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2008 11:38

is the Amby still being sold today ? I noticed amby taxis in chennai but
havent seen much amby in blr - its all indica land here.

only army generals here seem to have black ambys.

negi · Post by **negi** » 24 Dec 2008 11:47

Gurudev come to the city of joy for a joy ride in Amby

.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2008 11:49

*

*

most minister and "top officials" in blr moved to esteems, corollas and scorpios a while back. one minister submitted a medical certificate that his back problem needed a skoda instead of a corolla.

jkarthik · Post by **jkarthik** » 24 Dec 2008 15:13

Hon'ble CM of TN rides a "humble" Ambassador....with a fleet of 6-8 Hyundai Accent pandu-wagons leading, a Safari with jammers trailing and sonny boy's Pajero/Prado following! Most "mofussil" towns in TN still prefer the Ambassador taxi for some reason. Most MH netas seem to use Octavias.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2008 15:32

are you sure those two thick white poles are not on the CM's ambassador
itself? I assume they are the jammers? saw the convoy recently. police had
stopped traffic before and after by a few mins in key places like cathedral
road-anna salai flyover ramp. quite a impressive sight at night.

the pondy bzr - usman rd area pretty much blows away blr markets in people,
silks and jewelry. I have never seen so many and large jewelry and silk shops.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 01 Jan 2009 10:57

Its one year since Sri Ratan Tata announced Nano.

NOw

'Finding Nano' should be a block buster (movie)

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 01 Jan 2009 12:44

Singha wrote:is the Amby still being sold today ? I noticed amby taxis in chennai but
havent seen much amby in blr - its all indica land here.

only army generals here seem to have black ambys.

Amby's website: http://www.hmambassador.com/default.asp

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 02 Jan 2009 04:11

I was having a discussion today with an acquaintance who plans to purchase a car in the near future, he outright rejected Nano saying he wants something classy. I dint delve much into the topic from there on but it got me thinking. How many of us would be willing to be seen owning a Nano. Will the "one lakh car" tag ensure that it doesn't get very popular with the brand-conscious above middle class people? I know they are not the intended audience for the car but I worry this "not wanting to be seen in a nano" feeling may eventually affect its future sales....

Thoughts and comments please...

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 02 Jan 2009 04:22

Dileep wrote:
Singha wrote:is the Amby still being sold today ? I noticed amby taxis in chennai but
havent seen much amby in blr - its all indica land here.

only army generals here seem to have black ambys.
Amby's website: http://www.hmambassador.com/default.asp

Available in BS II and BS III versions

honestly you would wonder what are the engineers in HM doing? The car's design has not changed in a long time, some engines and the gearbox are imported....When will they come up with their small car, a smaller sedan, a SUV etc etc? Babus not open to this idea?

If I remember right, a long time back (20 years) back I remember my uncle used to drive a hatchback version of the amby, man was it one ugly creature.....

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 02 Jan 2009 04:27

Check this one out...

Modified Amby---

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J0mVmc2vYGU

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 Jan 2009 04:28

The Nano was never meant for the brand conscious middle class, but for the aspirant class. Each year 35-40 million odd people move from the ranks of the destitute/subsistence life to being small consumers with a disposable income each year. As those people progressively move up the income ladder, there's a massive gulf between a good 2-wheeler at over 50K Rupees, and a Maruti 800 at ~2.5lakh . The Nano fits in between . It particularly appeals to families, who would otherwise be forced to travel dangerously on a 2 wheeler.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 02 Jan 2009 09:57

First produce some nanos for users to give some feed back.

As usual more garam hawa than a product out I guess.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 Jan 2009 10:18

John Snow: you're being rather too harsh at Tata. The Nano delays are primarily due to the Singur troubles, not their own ineptness.

bart · Post by **bart** » 02 Jan 2009 10:26

John Snow wrote:First produce some nanos for users to give some feed back.

As usual more garam hawa than a product out I guess.

Yes, clearly as usual, Tata Motors and RT are to blame for the delay. Mamta Bannerjee, CSE, NGOs and assorted Naxals obviously have nothing to do with the Nano missing its launch date.

If you bother to do a simple google search, you can even find pictures of all kinds of Nano product testing on open roads, even some test drive reports and videos. Even today you have this article:
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... 26/344877/
Pretty good going for something that is allegedly vaporware.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 02 Jan 2009 10:30

Contingency contingency planning....

The customer may wait, but the vendors will vanish, economy may hit blemish, everything (the concept) may vanish.
Timing is everything. There are many wonders which just got vapourised by the miracle power called time.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 02 Jan 2009 17:57

Nano will come when it will come.

Btw here is some good news on the baby..

Nano goes on a test drive in rugged Garhwal

http://in.rediff.com/money/2009/jan/02t ... arhwal.htm

Shishir Prashant in Dehra Dun

People in the hilly town of Gopeshwar in Chamoli district were recently surprised to see the Nano, Tata Motors' [Get Quote] controversial Rs 100,000 car, parked on a roadside.

The Nano had travelled all the way from Pantnagar, crossing the tough, serpentine roads of Uttarakhand, to reach picturesque Gopeshwar nestling in the Garhwal Himalayan region.

* Tata Nanao: The world's cheapest car

This was one of the Nano's toughest tests, being conducted by engineers of Tata Motors in the rugged Himalayan region.

Significantly, the mileage of the small car is being projected at 17-20 km per litre in the hills.

"We have conducted the test drive of Nano in the hills of Uttarakhand and Pune. Initial reports are very encouraging," an official of the Tata Motors plant at Pantnagar told Business Standard.

Now after a series of test drives, the car is set to be launched in the first quarter of the next financial year, the official said. The exact date of the launch of Nano would, however, be decided by chairman Ratan Tata, the official added.

The company has already given a commitment to Uttarakhand Chief Minister B C Khanduri that it would roll out the first Nano from the state.

For expansion, the company has been allotted 45 acres of extra land at Pantnagar by the state government. A decision in this regard was taken by a high-powered committee headed by Khanduri, which met here on December 22.

Tata Motors is currently manufacturing Ace trucks at the Pantnagar facility. The commercial launch of the car has already been postponed by at least two to three months, after it was forced to relocate from West Bengal following political protests there.

Although, the mother unit of the car will be set up in Gujarat, where the company has recently been allotted 1,100 acres, the firm is also planning to set up a permanent manufacturing facility for Nano at Pantnagar.

In addition to 45 acres, the chief minister has also assured company officials that their other demands would also be considered.

The state government has been trying to lure Tata Motors to set up a permanent plant for the Nano at Pantnagar, stating that the company must benefits from the incentives available in the state in the wake of the Special Industrial Package, 2003, which offers a range of tax incentives.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jan 2009 18:53

afaik there has been a PIL filed in gujarat by landowners to block the Nano factory.

so their existing Telco plant in uttaranchal is the only one which can produce Nano for now.

it was a nehruvian strategic blunder to plan for WB, taken in by the hubaidiya promises of
land and major tax breaks. Tata goofed up majorly on that one.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 03 Jan 2009 03:40

Suraj wrote:The Nano was never meant for the brand conscious middle class, but for the aspirant class. Each year 35-40 million odd people move from the ranks of the destitute/subsistence life to being small consumers with a disposable income each year. As those people progressively move up the income ladder, there's a massive gulf between a good 2-wheeler at over 50K Rupees, and a Maruti 800 at ~2.5lakh . The Nano fits in between . It particularly appeals to families, who would otherwise be forced to travel dangerously on a 2 wheeler.

Right Suraj sir. I was wondering more on the lines of, would the middle + upper middle class people be interested in the car? I am planning to buy a car when I return to Desh and Nano is high on my list...one of my friends "does nt want 2 be seen in the car" as it is in his rather crude opinion "cheap car" and not wanting to be seen in it...I worry prevalence of such an attitude to the car may lead to its downfall. I know its a weird question but in Desh u c such weird feelings of "wanting to be fair and lovely", "phoreign maal", "prestige status" etc etc ....

abhishek · Post by **abhishek** » 03 Jan 2009 03:52

All the mid-middle class will own a Nano and all the higher middle and the higher class will own a Nano for second, third or a fourth car.

All said with the hope that the Tatas won't let us down with it being a real car and with a decent quality at that.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Jan 2009 04:45

Yogi_G wrote:Right Suraj sir. I was wondering more on the lines of, would the middle + upper middle class people be interested in the car? I am planning to buy a car when I return to Desh and Nano is high on my list...one of my friends "does nt want 2 be seen in the car" as it is in his rather crude opinion "cheap car" and not wanting to be seen in it...I worry prevalence of such an attitude to the car may lead to its downfall. I know its a weird question but in Desh u c such weird feelings of "wanting to be fair and lovely", "phoreign maal", "prestige status" etc etc ....

Please, no 'sir', lets keep it informal

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Your friend either likes the car or he doesn't. If someone is interested in the car, it ought to imply they are not so conscious of 'phoren maal' requirement. There might be middle class folk who are not snobs and want the car, and there might be aspirants who are snobs and prefer to hold our for a more expensive car when they can afford it. What is the question really ? E.g. John Snow wants to buy a Nano. What does that say about him ?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 03 Jan 2009 04:51

I want to buy 4 nano at a time, repeat 4 nanos at time.
Two for cannabilising for spares two for using at any time.
You never know what Mamta didi can do. Seriously

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 03 Jan 2009 11:17

Suraj wrote:
Yogi_G wrote:Right Suraj sir. I was wondering more on the lines of, would the middle + upper middle class people be interested in the car? I am planning to buy a car when I return to Desh and Nano is high on my list...one of my friends "does nt want 2 be seen in the car" as it is in his rather crude opinion "cheap car" and not wanting to be seen in it...I worry prevalence of such an attitude to the car may lead to its downfall. I know its a weird question but in Desh u c such weird feelings of "wanting to be fair and lovely", "phoreign maal", "prestige status" etc etc ....
Please, no 'sir', lets keep it informal I don't understand what you're trying to say. Your friend either likes the car or he doesn't. If someone is interested in the car, it ought to imply they are not so conscious of 'phoren maal' requirement. There might be middle class folk who are not snobs and want the car, and there might be aspirants who are snobs and prefer to hold our for a more expensive car when they can afford it. What is the question really ? E.g. John Snow wants to buy a Nano. What does that say about him ?

Suraj, my sir was actually a "saar"

ok let me try it explaining this way, sorry am nt dng the right job of explaining it properly, if there comes to exist a perception that a Nano is for the lower income people only and that the middle class + upper middle class treat it as lowly, wat bearning would that have on Nano's sale. Agreed the lower middle class would go ahead and buy it anyways because what matters to them is that Nano is perfect for their needs and that the beliefs of some arrogant people does not matter. Now how much of an effect will this "Nano is lowly" arrogant feeling have on ordinary middle class who want to get a Nano but feat being "seen in it" essentially a prestige issue, the issue of being seen in a Maruthi rather than in Nano...I fear if such an attitude does become prevalent then there wont be much takers for it in the middle class never mind the upper middle class....

as for John Snow saar, his modesty is just as good as his sense of humour....way to go John garu...oh and add foresight to that list (abt the spare parts thing)

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 03 Jan 2009 12:27

Yogi_G: Every product has a target audience. The Nano is not targeted for the middle class. If your friend, or anyone else of decent means, finds a Nano inappropriate for the status level he projects, fine, just get a higher priced car, like an Indica. What's the purpose of arguing on the lines of 'I'm concerned a Lexus buyer may not like the Camry' ?

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 04 Jan 2009 08:01

Yogi_G wrote:
Suraj wrote: Please, no 'sir', lets keep it informal I don't understand what you're trying to say. Your friend either likes the car or he doesn't. If someone is interested in the car, it ought to imply they are not so conscious of 'phoren maal' requirement. There might be middle class folk who are not snobs and want the car, and there might be aspirants who are snobs and prefer to hold our for a more expensive car when they can afford it. What is the question really ? E.g. John Snow wants to buy a Nano. What does that say about him ?
Suraj, my sir was actually a "saar"

ok let me try it explaining this way, sorry am nt dng the right job of explaining it properly, if there comes to exist a perception that a Nano is for the lower income people only and that the middle class + upper middle class treat it as lowly, wat bearning would that have on Nano's sale. Agreed the lower middle class would go ahead and buy it anyways because what matters to them is that Nano is perfect for their needs and that the beliefs of some arrogant people does not matter. Now how much of an effect will this "Nano is lowly" arrogant feeling have on ordinary middle class who want to get a Nano but feat being "seen in it" essentially a prestige issue, the issue of being seen in a Maruthi rather than in Nano...I fear if such an attitude does become prevalent then there wont be much takers for it in the middle class never mind the upper middle class....

as for John Snow saar, his modesty is just as good as his sense of humour....way to go John garu...oh and add foresight to that list (abt the spare parts thing)

For a vast number of people the Nano will represent a step up on the social ladder. The nano may also be a hit as a secondry car, in families that have "proven" their status by purchasing a larger car. I think a lot of ladies and students, from middle class may find the car interesting.

For a person like me, living abroad, I would not consider the Nano, out of Safety and comfort reasons. But I may want to consider it for the servent to go and pick groceries etc. Perhaps also use it as Backup, just in case the other car breaks down.
A four wheel drive, for only 2000 dollars is always an interesting option.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 04 Jan 2009 08:34

Talking of Hyderabad, in General Indian roads, we can never hit sustained 40 MPH (65 Km per Hour)for half an hour. In my experience max of 20 minutes at 40 Mph before some one , some thing ( like Bull Buffalo Pig,Bullock cart) or because of two way lanes. So one does not need 3.0 Lit V6 which can do 0-60 MPH in 6 seconds.

Also Nano is more urban-suburban ( ie city near city) driving in which case even Maruthi drivers hardly go into 4th gear mostly 2/3 shifting.

So Nano is ideal for Four Runner not Toyota in Indian roads.

3 cylinder 600 cc is more than Yogi_Gic power needed.

If some one wants V6 3.0 liter or monstorus V8 with 4.5 liter thats a fine Lorry (aka Truck) in India.

KarthikSan · Post by **KarthikSan** » 04 Jan 2009 08:58

John Snow wrote:If some one wants V6 3.0 liter or monstorus V8 with 4.5 liter thats a fine Lorry (aka Truck) in India.

Most of the pick-up trucks that are used in Massaland will be most effectively used as a "Tempo" in India