Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 03 Jan 2009 22:56

For the first time since the operation in Gaza got underway, IDF artillery cannons started to shell targets in the Strip. IDF artillery cannons began pounding the eastern sector of the Gaza Strip around 4 pm Saturday. Ynet correspondent Ron Ben-Yishai reported that portable artillery batteries are engaging in a heavy bombardment of the area.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 04 Jan 2009 01:14

India has to take clear side with Israel as long as they are after the terrorists. I think Hamas is clearly a terror group which has to be alienated and destroyed if they are threat to the lives of the Israelis. We are in the position as being threat by LeT and other allied Terrorists camps which have to be destroyed. As long as Israelis are ready to recognise Palestinians aspirations and grand them an autonomous state and then fight the terrorists anywhere who are threat to the Israelis lives.
So India should not simply condemn Israelis who are attacking these Hamas who tend to fire from the multi storage residential areas. Local Muslims and leader in Gaza should ask these fighters to fight directly with Israeli army or give up themselves and fight politically Israelis not with arms. Hamas should not fight being among the people and then Israelis have to destroy the buildings for their protection.

I think the same argument is true for India as well. We have to target these terror groups whether in Pakistan or in Bangladesh. We cannot keep on defending our borders unless tens of millions become police and bsf which is unthinkable but other territories should not be used for attacks in India.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 04 Jan 2009 01:51

joshvajohn wrote:India has to take clear side with Israel as long as they are after the terrorists.

I don't think India should do anything. Israel will continue to fight with Hamas regardless of what India says. As long as the US supports them, nobody's opinion matters to them. To avoid future entanglements, India should not overtly support the Israeli's in this.

I think Hamas is clearly a terror group which has to be alienated and destroyed if they are threat to the lives of the Israelis.

Destroying Hamas will not help relations between Israelis and Palestinians. We also need to consider that Hamas' political wing was democratically elected into the parliament. Although now it has been "banned" by the President, part of Fatah, I can't imagine that support for the party has significantly waned.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Jan 2009 02:01

joshvajohn wrote:India has to take clear side with Israel as long as they are after the terrorists. I think Hamas is clearly a terror group which has to be alienated and destroyed if they are threat to the lives of the Israelis.

By this definition, so should the PA. They are worse than Hamas and have also launched suicide terror attacks in the past. They didn't have any control over Islamic Jihad and the other groups. At least Hamas did. When IJ launched rockets in the beginning of the ceasefire, Hamas went over and beat the crap out of the people who launched the rockets. Hamas has better influence over these groups than the PA.

Hamas is also better at running the strip than the PA.

Local Muslims and leader in Gaza should ask these fighters to fight directly with Israeli army or give up themselves and fight politically Israelis not with arms. Hamas should not fight being among the people and then Israelis have to destroy the buildings for their protection.

You can't do anything in Gaza without civilians around, every single person who has been there has said the same thing. Even the UNRWA head, who was on CNN, said the same thing.

Also please understand what drove the people to supporting Hamas. It is because Hamas can govern the strip without/less corruption. Hamas also happens to be getting things done, in terms of day to day governance, like building roads etc.

Although I do agree, that India should blame Hamas for the violence, like Egypt etc has done.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 04 Jan 2009 05:08

I am so happy for Israel.

They have a leadership that fight for them. Their lefties have not taken over their Governement unlike Indias.

Manny

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 04 Jan 2009 09:03

There are lots of Anti-Israel protest going on in Bay Area. I happened to see one in Newark today. A group (Around 25) of young guys and girls with Palestinian flag and Kaffiah on their head making noise near the Mall.
I sensed that hardly anyone paid attention to them or was sympathetic to their cause. With all the terrorist activities going on and Muslims all across the world jumping on to defend terrorists or justifying their action with "Root cause", The Muslims surely have lost all the cards.
There is a sense of disillusionment with all the Muslim causes whether right or wrong.

Ameet · Post by **Ameet** » 04 Jan 2009 10:51

US blocks UNSC action on cease-fire for Gaza

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090104/ap_ ... lestinians

UNITED NATIONS – The United States late Saturday blocked approval of a U.N. Security Council statement calling for an immediate cease-fire in the Gaza Strip and southern Israel and expressing concern at the escalation of violence between Israel and Hamas.

U.S. deputy ambassador Alejandro Wolff said the United States saw no prospect of Hamas abiding by last week's council call for an immediate end to the violence. Therefore, he said, a new statement at this time "would not be adhered to and would have no underpinning for success, would not do credit to the council."

France's U.N. Ambassador Jean-Maurice Ripert, the current council president, announced that there was no agreement among members on a statement. But he said there were "strong convergences" among the 15 members to express serious concern about the deteriorating situation in Gaza and the need for "an immediate, permanent and fully respected cease-fire."

Arab nations demanded that the council adopt a statement calling for an immediate cease-fire following Israel's launch of a ground offensive in Gaza earlier Saturday, a view echoed by Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon.

Libya's U.N. Ambassador Giadalla Ettalhi, the only Arab member of the council, said the United States objected to "any outcome" during the closed council discussions on the proposed statement.

He said efforts were made to compromise and agree on a weaker press statement but there was no consensus.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — Arab nations demanded Saturday that the United Nations Security Council call for an immediate cease-fire following Israel's launch of a ground offensive in Gaza, a view echoed by Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon.

Libya circulated a draft statement to council members before emergency council consultations began expressing "serious concern at the escalation of the situation in Gaza" following Israel's ground assault and calling on Israel and Hamas "to stop immediately all military activities."

The 15-member council then met behind closed doors to discuss a proposed presidential statement that would also call for all parties to address the humanitarian and economic needs in Gaza, including by opening border crossings.

Council diplomats said the United States opposed the presidential statement because it was similar to a press statement issued by members after Israeli warplanes launched the offensive a week ago that was not heeded. Presidential statements become part of the council's official record but press statements are weaker and do not.

The five permanent council members — the U.S., Britain, France, Russia and China — along with Libya, the only Arab nation on the council, then met privately to discuss possibly issuing another press statement.

"We need to have from the Security Council reaction tonight to bring this latest addition of aggression against our people in Gaza to an immediate halt," Riyad Mansour, the Palestinian U.N. observer told reporters.

The statement, if approved, would become part of the council's official record but would not have the weight of a Security Council resolution, which is legally binding.

Mansour said 3,000 Palestinians have been killed and injured since Israeli warplanes starting bombing Gaza a week ago. More than 480 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza and four killed in Israel.

International criticism of the offensive has increased steadily, but Israel maintains the offensive is aimed at stopping the rocket attacks from Hamas-controlled Gaza that have traumatized southern Israel.

Before the council met Saturday night, Ban telephoned Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and said he was disappointed that Israel launched a ground offensive and "alarmed that this escalation will inevitably increase the already heavy suffering" of Palestinian civilians, the U.N. spokesman's office said in a statement.

"He called for an immediate end to the ground operation, and asked that Israel do all possible to ensure the protection of civilians and that humanitarian assistance is able to reach those in need," the statement said.

Ban reiterated his call for an immediate cease-fire and urged regional and international partners "to exert all possible influence to bring about an immediate end to the bloodshed and suffering," the statement said.

The secretary-general said the Israeli ground operation is complicating efforts by the Quartet of Mideast peacemakers — the U.N., the U.S., the European Union and Russia — to end the violence.

France's U.N. Ambassador Jean-Maurice Ripert echoed Ban.

"We think it's time for both parties to stop fighting and go back to the political track," said Ripert. He said he was speaking as French ambassador not as Security Council president, a job he took over on Jan. 1.

Several Arab foreign ministers are expected at U.N. headquarters on Monday to urge the Security Council to adopt a resolution ending the Israeli offensive. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas delayed his arrival until Tuesday so he can meet French President Nicolas Sarkozy in the West Bank.

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 04 Jan 2009 10:58

Tilak wrote:
Latest rockets manufactured in China

I have been against weapons sales to the PRC for a long time. I hope this adminsters a swift kick to the pants of a few idiots in the Knesset.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 04 Jan 2009 11:01

What are typical routes for the rockets to make their way to the Palis?

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 04 Jan 2009 11:03

samuel wrote:What are typical routes for the rockets to make their way to the Palis?

Usual MO is smuggling through tunnels, bribing of egyptian guards at border crossings, using Red Cross (other humanitarian orgs as cover).

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 Jan 2009 11:06

Sadler wrote:
samuel wrote:What are typical routes for the rockets to make their way to the Palis?
Usual MO is smuggling through tunnels, bribing of egyptian guards at border crossings, using Red Cross (other humanitarian orgs as cover).

Finish the job this time.

Div · Post by **Div** » 04 Jan 2009 11:07

samuel wrote:What are typical routes for the rockets to make their way to the Palis?

^^ read the article quoted by Sadler above.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 04 Jan 2009 11:11

Can this ever end with so many vested interests interested in keeping the pot boiling ?
The path to peace is still under construction after so many years.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 04 Jan 2009 11:17

Right, that is known.

I was wondering what the journey of a typical rocket that left the manufacturing plant in China was before it got to the tunnels. For example, may be Iran buys and passes shipments along via Egypt. But they get into Egypt how. We are not talking of 10 or 100 rockets, there are far too many of these than that. Are they all being smuggled to Egypt in ones and twos a week, or is this all medical equipment that this neighbor is happy to pass along?

I don't have an understanding, even if informal, of the supply routes.

S

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 04 Jan 2009 11:23

^^^
How about the shipping lanes, e.g., the captured ships by Somalian pirates? Somalia --> Sudan---> Egypt. JMHTs.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 04 Jan 2009 11:31

Does IDF check whatever gets imported into Palestinian areas.
In todays world, how hard would it be to set up small underground sites to assemble knocked down pieces brought in at various time
under garb and make a rocket.
Hard to see Iran helping out Hamas due to old Shia-Sunni politics. Iran would not want Hamas to succeed so as not to create another competitor for Hassan Nasarullah. Am I right on this Sadler ?

renukb · Post by **renukb** » 04 Jan 2009 12:05

Manny wrote:I am so happy for Israel.

They have a leadership that fight for them. Their lefties have not taken over their Governement unlike Indias.

Manny

Let us see if the Israelis are going to behave the same and fight their enemies, if and when Iran goes nuclear. Fighting unarmed people is not bravery, Israelis are cowards committing dastardly acts. India should oppose Israeli actions in public.

chaitanya · Post by **chaitanya** » 04 Jan 2009 12:28

renukb wrote:Fighting unarmed people is not bravery, Israelis are cowards committing dastardly acts. India should oppose Israeli actions in public.

Let us think for a moment that we live in a world with no judicial system or police; we are our own masters. One day, I come and spit in your face and kill your wife in front of your kids by snapping her neck and then proceed to run into a very crowded place. You have a gun. Will you not attempt to use it, even though I am unarmed? The analogy is crude but I hope you get the point.

renukb · Post by **renukb** » 04 Jan 2009 12:31

Drawing parallels between India-Pakistan and Israel-Palestein is futile ill logical... We need weapons and technology from Israel that's it. And for that we pay in hard $$. India should mean pure business with Israel and USA and give back only lip services at the max to them. No further political support to the dastardly acts of Israel.

Israel is Not a Victim
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_ ... p?id=14590

renukb · Post by **renukb** » 04 Jan 2009 12:33

chaitanya wrote:
renukb wrote:Fighting unarmed people is not bravery, Israelis are cowards committing dastardly acts. India should oppose Israeli actions in public.
Let us think for a moment that we live in a world with no judicial system or police; we are our own masters. One day, I come and spit in your face and kill your wife in front of your kids by snapping her neck and then proceed to run into a very crowded place. You have a gun. Will you not attempt to use it, even though I am unarmed? The analogy is crude but I hope you get the point.

Wrong analogy..... Do you know that Israelis are aggressors in their conflict with Palestein?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 04 Jan 2009 15:16

>>Do you know that Israelis are aggressors in their conflict with Palestein?

No, I did not know that. Please explain.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 04 Jan 2009 15:25

renukb wrote: Wrong analogy..... Do you know that Israelis are aggressors in their conflict with Palestein?

The Israelis were under attack from rockets fired by the Hamas and have every right to retaliate as well as take out enemy targets.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 04 Jan 2009 15:43

Apologies, I fell right into that trap, replying to a WKK.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 04 Jan 2009 15:50

This post was made by renukb who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.

I am glad I did that. Unfortunately when some hindoo fundamentalist uses the quote function I get to see the full-scale display of inbred-idiocy.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 04 Jan 2009 16:03

Prasant wrote:
renukb wrote: Wrong analogy..... Do you know that Israelis are aggressors in their conflict with Palestein?
The Israelis were under attack from rockets fired by the Hamas and have every right to retaliate as well as take out enemy targets.

The problem did not start with Hamas firing rockets, to get the real picture you will need to go back into history - at least 50 to 100 years. YouTube has some excellent video documentaries on the issue. Make sure you see the Palestinian point of view as well and not just the Israeli point of view and then decide for yourself. After that if your interest persists read through some of the books on google books site. Stay away from news and print media regarding this issue as they are full of propaganda and do take everything with a grain of salt as their is enough propaganda there to influence the uninitiated mind.

And after all this if you are still in doubt just stick to GoI's point of view on the issue and keep in mind that this issue doesn't concern us as Indians. As far as Israeli weapons and technology are concerned, they are not the only once with weapons and technology - but despite all their issues we do want to keep them as friends

munna · Post by **munna** » 04 Jan 2009 16:15

akl wrote:And after all this if you are still in doubt just stick to GoI's point of view on the issue and keep in mind that this issue doesn't concern us as Indians

Anywhere and everywhere if the Islamic jihadis have a problem then that issue concerns each and every Indian. Israel is good and speaks the only language which Hamas understands.
Oh by the way AKl if you really want to back to the history then go back about 1200+ years to get the complete perspective and not the SDRE/HFL 50-70 years.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 04 Jan 2009 16:19

munna wrote:
akl wrote:And after all this if you are still in doubt just stick to GoI's point of view on the issue and keep in mind that this issue doesn't concern us as Indians
Anywhere and everywhere if the Islamic jihadis have a problem then that issue concerns each and every Indian. Israel is good and speaks the only language which Hamas understands.
Oh by the way AKl if you really want to back to the history then go back about 1200+ years to get the complete perspective and not the SDRE/HFL 50-70 years.

Two wrongs don't make a right and don't just focus on Islamic-Jewish issues. If you are interested look into the non-Islamic persecution of Jews in Europe also. In either case, these Abrahamic/Western/middle-eastern religious issues are not our concern.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 04 Jan 2009 16:24

akl wrote: Two wrongs don't make a right. In either case, these Abrahamic/Western/middle-eastern religious issues are not our concern.

Might be of no concern to you, in which case you shouldn't really comment so much on the topic.

munna · Post by **munna** » 04 Jan 2009 16:24

Akl ji letting a wrong go unchallenged is even worst.
Gandhian logic is a very potent one but only against civilized societies, here Israel has a medieval tribal society to deal with which still dreams of Ummah domination and making all others Dhimmis, it is befitting that they are homeless after making others homeless and stateless for centuries and are even now doing it in Kashmir viz KPs. If ummah does not make distinction regarding states and borders then why should we?

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 04 Jan 2009 16:32

munna wrote:Akl ji letting a wrong go unchallenged is even worst.
Gandhian logic is a very potent one but only against civilized societies, here Israel has a medieval tribal society to deal with which still dreams of Ummah domination and making all others Dhimmis, it is befitting that they are homeless after making others homeless and stateless for centuries and are even now doing it in Kashmir viz KPs. If ummah does not make distinction regarding states and borders then why should we?

Well if you see all muslims as enemy then certainly the simplistic logic that an enemy-of-an-enemy-is-your-friend will appeal to many.

munna · Post by **munna** » 04 Jan 2009 16:36

akl wrote:Well if you see all muslims as enemy then certainly the simplistic logic that an enemy-of-an-enemy-is-your-friend will appeal to many.

you are 400% wrong onlee. All Muslims are not enemy but political Islam and its goal of Ummah domination/ Shariah Imposition certainly is. So whenever and wherever political Islam comes into conflict with the Dhimmi world our choices are frozen by the behaviour of ummah. Every Israeli soldier while joining the army swears to never let Masada fall again and a whole majority of Indians believe that Somnath will not fall again

. I guess you get the picture now.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 04 Jan 2009 16:37

akl wrote:
munna wrote:Akl ji letting a wrong go unchallenged is even worst.
Gandhian logic is a very potent one but only against civilized societies, here Israel has a medieval tribal society to deal with which still dreams of Ummah domination and making all others Dhimmis, it is befitting that they are homeless after making others homeless and stateless for centuries and are even now doing it in Kashmir viz KPs. If ummah does not make distinction regarding states and borders then why should we?
Well if you see all muslims as enemy then certainly the simplistic logic that an enemy-of-an-enemy-is-your-friend will appeal to many.

Red herring ! Munna wrote about Ummah, Dhimmis and the separation of religion and state. Where did the question of all muslims being the enemy come from?

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 04 Jan 2009 17:01

munna wrote:
akl wrote:Well if you see all muslims as enemy then certainly the simplistic logic that an enemy-of-an-enemy-is-your-friend will appeal to many.
you are 400% wrong onlee. All Muslims are not enemy but political Islam and its goal of Ummah domination/ Shariah Imposition certainly is. So whenever and wherever political Islam comes into conflict with the Dhimmi world our choices are frozen by the behaviour of ummah. Every Israeli soldier while joining the army swears to never let Masada fall again and a whole majority of Indians believe that Somnath will not fall again . I guess you get the picture now.

Who is imposing Sharia in Israel? Israel is a Jewish religious state with nuclear weapons backed by US and other western powers where anyone who claims to be Jewish will receive immediate citizenship while the Palestinians who have been living there was as long as any Jew are increasing marginalized, removed from their lands, and treated as third-class citizens - something which has been going on for decades.

We certainly don't want Somnath to be destroyed again, but that doesn't mean that you go and destroy Mosques and push all Muslims in India into Pakistan. Just because you claim to be fighting extremism doesn't mean you yourself become an extremist - A lesson that Isreal perhaps still needs to learn.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 04 Jan 2009 17:04

Prasant wrote: Red herring ! Munna wrote about Ummah, Dhimmis and the separation of religion and state. Where did the question of all muslims being the enemy come from?

Certainly I don't see Isreal giving free citizenship to Muslims who land at its shores while it doles out free citizenship to anyone who claims to be Jew and settles them. What separation between church and state? Israel is not India or vice-versa.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 04 Jan 2009 17:07

akl wrote:
Prasant wrote: Red herring ! Munna wrote about Ummah, Dhimmis and the separation of religion and state. Where did the question of all muslims being the enemy come from?
Certainly I don't see Isreal giving free citizenship to Muslims who land at its shores while it doles out free citizenship to anyone who claims to be Jew and settles them. What separation between church and state? Israel is not India or vice-versa.

Another set of red herrings from you.
By the way, there are Muslim, Christian and Druze Israelis.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 04 Jan 2009 17:18

Prasant wrote:
akl wrote: Certainly I don't see Isreal giving free citizenship to Muslims who land at its shores while it doles out free citizenship to anyone who claims to be Jew and settles them. What separation between church and state? Israel is not India or vice-versa.
Another set of red herrings from you.
By the way, there are Muslim, Christian and Druze Israelis.

Same thing with Palestine.

Along the same lines there are Hindus and Christians in Pakistan as well, but that doesn't change the fact that Pakistan is a religious state nor does it change the fact that Pakistan sponsors terrorism. Similarly Israel is a religious state and it has and continues to marginalize Palestinians and their rights there for decades.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 04 Jan 2009 17:21

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 04 Jan 2009 17:31

narayanan wrote:akl wrote:
that doesn't change the fact that Pakistan is not a religious state

Hello, have you checked into the NAME of Pakistan? It is ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of Terrorist Pakistan.

What is "Islamic Republic" in your definition, if it is not a "religious" state?

Of course, I do not dispute that Pakistan is really a Terrorist Kleptocracy and Sex Offender Haven.

Have you checked the PASSPORT FORM of Pakistan where it asks applicants to declare that Ahmadiyas Are Not Muslims?

Now this takes the 2009 Early Bird Award:
nor does it change the fact that Pakistan does not sponsor terrorism.

Sorry my bad. Typos in haste. I have edited the post.

Ardeshir · Post by **Ardeshir** » 04 Jan 2009 17:31

akl wrote: Same thing with Palestine.

Along the same lines there are Hindus and Christians in Pakistan as well,

If you are comparing the condition of minorities in Pakistan to minorities in Israel, you are either highly deluded or highly misinformed.

akl wrote: but that doesn't change the fact that Pakistan is not a religious state

And pray tell, what is Pakistan if not a religious state?

akl wrote:nor does it change the fact that Pakistan does not sponsor terrorism. Similarly Israel is a religious state and it has and continues to marginalize Palestinians and their rights there for decades.

Again, Israel being a religious state is nowhere like Pakistan being a religious state. There are Jews of varied beliefs who co-exist, including Atheist Jews (i.e. those who are only culturally Jewish but otherwise atheists). Pakistan doesn't tolerate any religious diversity, and even goes on to make Ahmediyya muslims preaching their version of Islam a crime. Where is the similarity, unless of course, if your motive is just to troll on the forums.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Jan 2009 17:32

Like all complex international problems, the Israeli-Palestinian one also has shades of grey. It is not as black and white as saying "hamas is terrorist". Dont know how many people on this forum know that the Paletinian "resistance" was not always a "political islam" project. Fatah was led by George Habash, a christian. The long standing ideological altar ego of the Palestinians, Edward Said, was also a christian. There is neither the space nor the time here to discuss the entire complexity of the issue right now. But it is a fact that the political islam project has been massively "helped" by how the Palestinian problem has been allowed to fester for so long. The fault to an extent lies on both sides.

About the current round of fighting, unfortunately its again not a black and white operation. How much is the current round motivated by Ehud Barak's intention to undercut Tzipi Livni in the upcoming elections? Israel knows pretty well that its "existential" threat is from only one country today, that is Iran. Why is Israel spending so much of its political, military and economic capital on Hamas, and as they did earlier, on Hizbollah? Despite the rocket attacks, did the situation warrant an "invasion" of the type we are seeing?

At a strategic level, it is a tough question for Israelis - what is the right way forward for establishing the security of the Jewish state? At what terms does a settlement with the Paletinians need to happen? What is the cost that the Isareali nation is paying for maintaining a few thousand settlers?

None of this is black and white. So its quite naive for us as Indians to just say "blast those Paletinians away", and cheer Israel as it does, and jeer our govt for not doing the same thing to PAkistan.