Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

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enqyoob
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by enqyoob »

At what terms does a settlement with the Paletinians need to happen? What is the cost that the Isareali nation is paying for maintaining a few thousand settlers?


The Israelis DID settle with the Palestinians, and the new independent state of Gaza was created, on the basis that they would live in peace with the Israelis.

Unfortunately, Gaza went the way of all Islamic-terrorist-dominated states - they elected the rabid elements as their Government, so they quickly became a state-sponsored terrorist haven, where the police was the same as the terrorist force.

What would you have Israelis do about the fact that the new "peaceful" neighbor has a government that lobs rockets into its towns? Obviously if Israel were India, the answer would be found in the long "Indian Response to Terrorism" thread: NOTHING. But Israel can't afford to let that fester - they have to convey very clearly that this is not a model to emulate, or else ALL their neighbors would start lobbing rockets into Israel tomorrow. Hence the nice, calibrated response of KILLING the terrorists and DESTROYING their neighborhoods.

The choice to not live in peace was made by the Gaza people - they had a vote to exercise, and they exercised it to choose to elect terrorists to power. There is no great injustice in their having to pay the price for that.

There is no rocket science to this (except the Hamas rockets, which don't seem to be very accurate) and no need to complicate matters any. The Palestinians chose terrorism over peace. They are paying the price.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by munna »

akl wrote: Who is imposing Sharia in Israel? Israel is a Jewish religious state with nuclear weapons backed by US and other western powers where anyone who claims to be Jewish will receive immediate citizenship while the Palestinians who have been living there was as long as any Jew are increasing marginalized, removed from their lands, and treated as third-class citizens - something which has been going on for decades.
The provision of citizenship is there because Jews have faced persecution at the hands of a lot of countries and they want to provide immediate shelter/protection to any and every jew. Israel is a free country for all the hyperventilating by neutral experts and peaceniks. If Israelis are not to fight for themselves they will end up as dhimmis! Ummah wants shariah everywhere heck we even have its provisions implemented in India under the aegis of the August body of AIMPLB. Palestinians have chosen to fight for a different nation state and I am sure if they give up their terrorism they will be treated as any other human being will be, unlike the treatment described by the ummah for the dhimmis.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by shyamd »

narayanan wrote: The choice to not live in peace was made by the Gaza people - they had a vote to exercise, and they exercised it to choose to elect terrorists to power. There is no great injustice in their having to pay the price for that.
Why after all those years of having the Palestinian authority in power, would the Gazans suddenly want Hamas in power?
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by munna »

shyamd wrote:Why after all those years of having the Palestinian authority in power, would the Gazans suddenly want Hamas in power?
Vinaash Kale Viprit Buddhi??
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by enqyoob »

It was not so sudden. The PLA govt was "corrupt". "inefficient".
The terrorists, OTOH, were monolithic, and such considerations did not apply. Their supporters always came out to vote for them, while the PLA's supporters were less enthusiastic. Once the terrorists took over, of course, that's probably the last free election they will have. Like West Bengal.

But the fact remains that more of Gaza's voters were pro-Hamas than pro-peace. Now they get what they voted for. Yet another data point that strengthens those who say that Islamism and civilized democracy cannot co-exist. There is nothing in their long-term aspirations that says: "Let us become a civilized nation, welcomed by the world". It's always: "Let us bring about the domination of the Ummah".
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Chinmayanand »

I think, this Israeli counter-offensive in Gaza will continue till Obama takes his seat.After that , he will persuade Israel to lower its gaze and bolster his image in the arab world.Israel still has more than two weeks and looks determined to make its counter-measures count.
Israel alone , makes the entire arab world impotent . The arabs do chai-biscuit sessions and that is it.
The most disappointing stance is from Bakistan. :( Bakis are not sending their ghauris,ghaznavis,hatfs ,mujahids to save their brethren in palestine.... :mrgreen:
When there are terror strikes by the mujahids around the world, the palestinians celebrate it and now they want the world to save their musharrafs ...all those mujahid rights activists must be sent to plaestine to fight for mujahid rights...
I have not seen any mass parade by arabs after any terror strike....when mujahids kill innocents , its HOLY WAR...and when these mujahids are executed, the arabs start shouting about human rights, oppression...what a farce...as you sow, so shall you reap... :D
Long Live Israel !!!
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by enqyoob »

I know - the Bakistani inaction is most distressing and damaging to the H&D. So many Eph-solahs, and long-range mijjiles!

Perhaps our Patron Marvi would like to take up this cause? 8) A few pleas may be in order? Nayakuddin?
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by tripathi »

^^so true.u can include human rights walas and left liberals along with ummah.these people dont demonstrate when their people kill on the religion of peace instead either they try to justify it or they will bring up new conspiracy theory.like they did after 26/11and 9/11
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by CRamS »

Guys:

Let me have a word or two on the Israeli Hamas circus.

1) Israel's moves are clearly dis-proportionate. India should keep its mouth shut instead of the inane statements coming out condemning Israel; or at least be as diplomatic as possible. I think Parthasarthy's comments on TimesNow were most apt. (I watched while I was in India).

2) Most important: Indians like me are salivating and fanatsizing that this is what India should be doing to Pakis aeons ago when TSP's use of terror as an instrument of state policy against India came into effect.

3) Pakis are watching the events in Gaza with some sense of outrage/hatred/revulsion and satisfaction. Outrage at what the 'evil Jews' are up to against their Ummah brothers, but satisfaction after their victory over India in Mumbai and post-Mumbai. Does anybody have a doubt that but for the powerful TSPA & its nukes & Unkil's doublespeak, India would have given TSP the same treatment Israel is meting out to Palestinians? I mean to call what Israel is underatking, namely, war - is a joke. Even target practice would be more challenging because the bulls-eye has to be hit. Here all Israel has to do is continue to pull the trigger until they are tired :-). All Hamas can do is issue Saddam Hussein like hot air: "Gaza will become mass grave for Israeli soldiers", yeah my foot.

4) Finally, for God's sake, even erudite folks on BR keep making this mistake, comparing Israel & India in dipomatic terms. Apart from the powerful Jewish lobby in the US, please remember that Israel is essentially a western country. Hence terror against Israel will be considered 'undulterated evil' in western parlance, and not 'dispute over Kashmir' or 'tensions between south asia rivals' or some crap like that when it comes to TSP terror against India.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Lauka »

-Permenent peace between Jews and muslims and for that matter between non-muslims,impossible,if muslims get this sort of education!!


http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.ph ... k1NjkyMw==
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Chandragupta »

renukb wrote:
Manny wrote:I am so happy for Israel.

They have a leadership that fight for them. Their lefties have not taken over their Governement unlike Indias.

Manny
Let us see if the Israelis are going to behave the same and fight their enemies, if and when Iran goes nuclear. Fighting unarmed people is not bravery, Israelis are cowards committing dastardly acts. India should oppose Israeli actions in public.
renukb wrote:Drawing parallels between India-Pakistan and Israel-Palestein is futile ill logical... We need weapons and technology from Israel that's it. And for that we pay in hard $$. India should mean pure business with Israel and USA and give back only lip services at the max to them. No further political support to the dastardly acts of Israel.

Israel is Not a Victim
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_ ... p?id=14590
Khud kuch karo nahi, jo kar raha hai usko bhi mat karne do. Typical dhimmi attitude.{borderline personal attack}

Unfortunately, India will & has already condemned Israel's action but something that will irk people like you for sure {Personal Attack #1}is guess what, it's just lip service. :lol:

Right now, India cannot support Israel openly, but we all know what goes on behind the doors. :D Israel & India are here to stay. I only wish that the day when India can finally come out & fully back Israel comes soon, but that would require the neutralisation of the Arab support to Pakistan.

Oh & btw, how was your Wagah trip? How many candles did you light up? {personal attack #2} :lol:
Last edited by enqyoob on 05 Jan 2009 09:00, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: personal attack on postor. Warning issued
brihaspati
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

1) Israel's moves are clearly dis-proportionate. India should keep its mouth shut instead of the inane statements coming out condemning Israel; or at least be as diplomatic as possible. I think Parthasarthy's comments on TimesNow were most apt. (I watched while I was in India).
The best war strategy is that which is dis-proportionate, all of war strategy is about making the particular engagement an overwhelming response on the opponent - this is why smaller forces try to split up larger forces so that they can eliminate smaller chunks with overhwlming force. And larger forces try to trap smaller forces and concentrate their attacks to maintian this same disproportion.
Here all Israel has to do is continue to pull the trigger until they are tired :-). All Hamas can do is issue Saddam Hussein like hot air: "Gaza will become mass grave for Israeli soldiers", yeah my foot.
I doubt it, the last Israeli adventure against the Hezbollah did not go very well for Israel, and they can still come in from the flanks.
4) Finally, for God's sake, even erudite folks on BR keep making this mistake, comparing Israel & India in dipomatic terms. Apart from the powerful Jewish lobby in the US, please remember that Israel is essentially a western country. Hence terror against Israel will be considered 'undulterated evil' in western parlance, and not 'dispute over Kashmir' or 'tensions between south asia rivals' or some crap like that when it comes to TSP terror against India.
Thats simply because a lot of boot-lickers from Indian side, historians and acdemics and the media, have been lending wind to the sail of this campaign.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Dhiman »

Well if there was ever a "settlement" of Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I certainly missed it. In either case, I am actually glad that this conflict exists - just looking at it will help anyone (including GoI) keep its moral compass straight. In either case, Jews are not Hindus and Arabs are not Buddhists, so this Abrahamic holy land in the middle-whatever-east is certainly not the Sarnath/Varanasi holy land :-)

In either case, I strongly believe in "two-nation theory", i.e two more Israels besides the one that already exists in middle east: a second Israeli religious state right between Manchester and London and a third religious state right smack between Bonn and Berlin. Both these areas are useless and empty land as nothing "civilized" lives there. That should definitely solve a lot of problem in all cases and satisfy most if not all involved actors here. And please don't insult me by interpreting this as sarcasm, I mean it in all seriousnes and hope onlee that GoI would step in an implement this solution at some point.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Dhiman »

Prasant wrote:Pakistan doesn't tolerate any religious diversity, and even goes on to make Ahmediyya muslims preaching their version of Islam a crime. Where is the similarity, unless of course, if your motive is just to troll on the forums.
My main problem is with people seeing some sort of similarity between India and Israel where none exist and I wouldn't be biting if people weren't trolling that nonsense.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by munna »

akl wrote:My main problem is with people seeing some sort of similarity between India and Israel where none exist and I wouldn't be biting if people weren't trolling that nonsense.
Indian and Israel are amongst the world's oldest civilizations. Both civilizations gave up the recourse to arms and were brutalized for better part of the millenium. Both are situated at the fault lines of the world i.e where free world comes in conflict with political Islam. Both are treated as the part of evil alliance of Hindu-Yahudi and have suffered from the Islamic terror with only one exception that Israel has given back in equal measure if not more than what those heinous murderers deserved. India was helped on numerous occasions by Israel when none of the Arabic ummah that we court even uttered a squeak against Pakistan. HFLs notwithstanding.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Sadler »

akl wrote:
Prasant wrote:Pakistan doesn't tolerate any religious diversity, and even goes on to make Ahmediyya muslims preaching their version of Islam a crime. Where is the similarity, unless of course, if your motive is just to troll on the forums.
My main problem is with people seeing some sort of similarity between India and Israel where none exist and I wouldn't be biting if people weren't trolling that nonsense.
"I" Both countries start with I
"Y" Yahooodi and Yindooo start with Y
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Rishirishi »

narayanan wrote:It was not so sudden. The PLA govt was "corrupt". "inefficient".
The terrorists, OTOH, were monolithic, and such considerations did not apply. Their supporters always came out to vote for them, while the PLA's supporters were less enthusiastic. Once the terrorists took over, of course, that's probably the last free election they will have. Like West Bengal.

But the fact remains that more of Gaza's voters were pro-Hamas than pro-peace. Now they get what they voted for. Yet another data point that strengthens those who say that Islamism and civilized democracy cannot co-exist. There is nothing in their long-term aspirations that says: "Let us become a civilized nation, welcomed by the world". It's always: "Let us bring about the domination of the Ummah".
The victory of Hamas was natural. In addition to the corruption, the PLO did not recieve the outside support it needed to create a working government. Even the Police was not paid on time and in many cases could not even feed them selfs. Had the world pumped in a few billion into schools, hospitals, judicery and made the government work, PLO probably could have pulled it off. To expect PLO to manage a society is unfair. They did not have the trained manpower and administration to run the country. The outside world should have offered administrative assistance along generous funding.

The Palestininas saw Hamas as an organised and effective organisation, and hoped they would do a better job. But Hamas also lack administrative and financial strength. They realise that they could not hold on to power and started a low intensity war to turn the attention away for their problems.
Why should Israel accept being the target of internal Palestinien problems? A tit for tat apprach will just play in the hands of Hamas. That is why Israel went in for a total "Knock out". I am not blaming Israel at all.

One solution could be that an amalgam of Arab countires, took responsibility of Gaza and made the place work. It is only 1,5 million people and I am sure that countries like UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan has sufficent financial and administrative resources to make Gaza work. Once they have a working government, Perhaps a sober domocratic government could be formed.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by shyamd »

Rishirishi wrote: The victory of Hamas was natural. In addition to the corruption, the PLO did not recieve the outside support it needed to create a working government. Even the Police was not paid on time and in many cases could not even feed them selfs.
That is partly correct. PA relies on subsidies and assistance from the EU and other donors. What happened was that Israel held the money and blocked the money from being received by the PA. This was because PA wasn't able to stop rocket attacks against israeli's, if memory serves me right. So, what resulted was govt workers weren't getting paid on time. Then the same thing happened when Hamas was in power. So the Iranians passed on suitcases full of cash in Mecca to Hamas when Ahmadinejad made his famous visit there.

Narayanan, when Hamas took over the strip, they just proved that the PA were essentially collaborators with Israeli's. The PA and Israeli security officers operated UAV's and intelligence jointly in security centre's within Gaza. My friend was telling me of intel files and UAV operation equipment in the offices.

Long run, Egypt will have to run Gaza, Jordan will have to run the west bank like in the past. That is the only way forward imho.

sorry boss, haven't got time to go into further detail.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by John Snow »

Folks you guys really wanted to get complete understanding of Plaestinian Israeli conflict? You really want to solve this problem, then think no further, run to your nearest Target ( I mean stores) or Netflix online to get this

Image.

pssst I am told Hillary C is watching this again again and again to understand the problem!
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by renukb »

JE Menon wrote:>>Do you know that Israelis are aggressors in their conflict with Palestein?

No, I did not know that. Please explain.
Read about 1967 Israeli-Arab war and check out how much land Israel is holding.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by renukb »

We can't say what India must do: Israel
http://in.news.yahoo.com/48/20090105/12 ... sra_1.html
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by enqyoob »

Renukb, I hope you also read about the leadup TO the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. I clearly remember reading the Indian Express in the days before the war started, with Egyptians bragging about how they were about to "drive the Jews into the sea" etc. They had massed a huge Soviet-supplied bomber force to destroy Israel, and there were large Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian land forces arrayed for the jehad into Israel, along with Iraqi and probably Pakistani Holy Detachments.

It was just good strategy and good leadership, and extremely resourceful soldiers, who saved Israel. Their preemptive air strike wiped out the Egyptian air force in one afternoon, and then their ground forces moved in with good air support and left the Egyptians stranded in the desert with no option except to surrender en masse. THAT is how Israel came to hold so much land. That war was supposed to end in the genocide of Israelis. Why is there any lack of knowledge of this? The Arab GOVERNMENTS were loud in their declaration of this intent.

Of course, having had their asses kicked soundly, the Arabs, like Pakis, :(( :(( about being Victims of Aggression. I think Israel should not have stopped, either in 1967 or in 1973, until they finished off the capital cities and governments of Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

In Lebanon in the 1980s, I think they learned this better.

Rishirishi:
In addition to the corruption, the PLO did not recieve the outside support it needed to create a working government. Even the Police was not paid on time and in many cases could not even feed them selfs. Had the world pumped in a few billion into schools, hospitals, judicery and made the government work, PLO probably could have pulled it off. To expect PLO to manage a society is unfair. They did not have the trained manpower and administration to run the country. The outside world should have offered administrative assistance along generous funding.


I completely agree. Note that this occurred at a time when Saudi Arabia and Iran and the UAE were raking in $$$ by the trillions with oil prices at an all-time high. Why should ISRAEL be the funding source for the new Palestine? Where were the Arab supporters of Palestinian struggle? Why could they not have poured in the development money and got the Palestinians off the streets? More to the point, why did they not try to get the Palestinians out of being dependent on Israel for their jobs? Isn't it this dependence that causes such grief each time Israel closes the borders?

The Arab rats are entirely to blame for the failure of the PA govt. If you look at the treatment of Palestinians ("Philistines") in most Arab countries (Kuwait for instance) you will understand why Palestinians prefer to work under the humiliating conditions in Israel rather than in the Holy Land of the Ummah.

Shyamd, why would it not make sense for the PA govt to work with the Israelis, to eradicate the terrorists who were attacking Israel? Isn't that what any responsible govt should do, to ensure that peace with neighbors was not disturbed? As long as the PA at least made an effort to do this, Israel limited its anger at the continuing Hamas terrorist and rocket attacks, to verbal abuse and I believe once an encirclement of the PA's HQ.

The Arabs have absolutely no interest in peace in the Middle East, as far as I can tell - every government there survives on hate and fear. While I feel terrible for the kids caught in the middle, there is no option for Israel other than to do what they have been doing. Anything else leads to genocide of Israelis.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by sum »

I can understand India being bit squirmy at the Israeli offensive( our netas can only dream of growing such B@lls) but for heavens sake, why doesnt the MEA keep its trap shut instead of issuing daily statements like "Peace is only solution, innocent Palestinians being killed, 1m $ being sent as relief to gaza immediately" etc....
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by VikramS »

Sadler wrote:
akl wrote: My main problem is with people seeing some sort of similarity between India and Israel where none exist and I wouldn't be biting if people weren't trolling that nonsense.
"I" Both countries start with I
"Y" Yahooodi and Yindooo start with Y
:rotfl: :rotfl:
See a religious/political map of the world. From the West Coast of Africa to the Eastern Asia, there are very few democracies or non-Islamic countries. I&I fill in.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by enqyoob »

As for "disproportionate response", who ever decided that the terrorists can attack innocent civilians? Why should the response to that be "proportionate"? Is this some sort of game, lobbing rockets at children - that requires some "proportionate response" like "you lob one rocket, I lob one rocket"?

OF COURSE the response should be DISPROPORTIONATE, and Israel should get to decide when, what, and how hard they hit, as long as the Arabs show no intention of stopping the terrorism COMPLETELY.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by enqyoob »

"Peace is only solution, innocent Palestinians being killed, 1m $ being sent as relief to gaza immediately" etc....


Quote from "EXODUS" by Leon Uris:
Only the Kingdom of Heaven runs on Truth. All the kingdoms of the world run on OIL


Yeah, the Indian MEA should shut up.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Sadler »

narayanan wrote: Rishirishi:
In addition to the corruption, the PLO did not recieve the outside support it needed to create a working government. Even the Police was not paid on time and in many cases could not even feed them selfs. Had the world pumped in a few billion into schools, hospitals, judicery and made the government work, PLO probably could have pulled it off. To expect PLO to manage a society is unfair. They did not have the trained manpower and administration to run the country. The outside world should have offered administrative assistance along generous funding.


I completely agree. Note that this occurred at a time when Saudi Arabia and Iran and the UAE were raking in $$$ by the trillions with oil prices at an all-time high. Why should ISRAEL be the funding source for the new Palestine? Where were the Arab supporters of Palestinian struggle? Why could they not have poured in the development money and got the Palestinians off the streets? More to the point, why did they not try to get the Palestinians out of being dependent on Israel for their jobs? Isn't it this dependence that causes such grief each time Israel closes the borders?
Not to mention the fact that Arafat was a billionaire. A lot of the moneys given to the PLO ended up in his swiss accounts, which Suha now controls. So, the notion that the palis could not progress because Israel witheld taxes (due to the PLO) is hogwash. There was plenty of money. It just got eaten up by PLO corruption. And Arafat and his top lieutenant's investments.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by renukb »

Narayanan, I understand the 1967 war scenerios.... However I was only refering to the land held by Israel...In the moral world, Israelis are aggressors.

Having said that I am not saying Israelis are doing it wrong. However at this juncture, I believe that they are being aggressive against innocents. Can Israelis prove that every person they have killed is a terrorist?

We must keep our relations low profile publicly, but behind the screen, what has to happen has to happen. Give some lip services to Israel and Palestein / Arabs both.

Damn those war machines ... If we could produce them or get them from some where else, things might have been totally different.... India has to move towards self reliance than relying on other nations in building war machines. It is only then, we can excercise our own foreign policies without external pressure....Sad to see Indian defense depending on so much phoren stuff... Not good in the long run, for a P5 aspirant super power. This way, India can never be a super power, but it can become a good poodle.
Last edited by renukb on 05 Jan 2009 10:49, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Dhiman »

narayanan wrote: The Arab rats are entirely to blame for the failure of the PA govt. If you look at the treatment of Palestinians ("Philistines") in most Arab countries (Kuwait for instance) you will understand why Palestinians prefer to work under the humiliating conditions in Israel rather than in the Holy Land of the Ummah.
I am glad that there is some recognition of the Palestinian plight here.
...there is no option for Israel other than to do what they have been doing. Anything else leads to genocide of Israelis.
In fact, given the stress techniques that Israel employs in dealing with common Palestinians, I tend to think that it would be Israel committing genocide of ALL Palestinians if given a free hand.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by enqyoob »

I am sure that there must be plenty of Israelis (for instance, everyone who has lost a dear relative to death by torture or terrorism) who at one time or another wished for the extinction of all Palestinians, but the fact is that in 70 years of military dominance, they have done nothing of the sort. Just as there are plenty of 1947 and later communal atrocity survivors in India who may wish to see the extinction of "one community".

Who exactly is restraining their "free hand" other than themselves, in either case? They could also empty out Israel of all Arabs, instead of tolerating a situation where the Islamic population is projected to overtake the Jewish. They don't do that either.

In return, could you count or estimate the number of Arabs who are patriotic Israelis?

Renukb, how exactly, given that you understand the realities of the 1948 and 1967 and 1973 Arab aggressions, does Israel's holding on to war-liberated land constitute "moral wrongs"? Agreed, they didn't rush in to do a Haji Pir Pass return or a Tashkent Land Giveaway, but maybe that is why they are still alive?

It is interesting to see the arguments coming from renukb and akl, because they are shared by vast numbers of modern desis (this is the "cosmopolitanism" perhaps, that was proposed in the Chai-Biscoot thread?) but I submit that these arguments have simply not had to stand up to clear reasoning. In fact, there are great number of desis who still condemn in the strongest terms, the US action to liberate Kuwait in 1991. To them, the "morally right" course would have been to send a Strong Demarche to the Iraqi Ambassador in Washington, and convey Tough Diplomatic Messages like "we hope that Iraq will consider withdrawing" instead of bombing the entire Imperial Guards of Saddam to Houristan. The Indian Phoren Sarbhij goes into orgasms at reading their own phrases like "terminilogical inexactitude" whereas Pakis convey their sentiments quite well by mooning.

Once one sees these arguments, one sees why Indian response to terrorism is laughably pathetic. It represents the Will Of The Indian People.

renukji, no amount of weapons development will cure that, sorry.

BTW, HOT NEWS on the Indian response to Islamic Terrorism:
Stepping up its diplomatic offensive, India on Monday handed over to Pakistan evidence linking that country to the Mumbai terrorist attacks and prepared to share the proof with the world community with the expectation that Islamabad [Images] would cooperate in punishing the culprits.


Instead of "hand over those terrorists" it is now "expectation that the terrorist masters will COOPERATE in PUNISHING the CULPRITS". Oooooo!!!!

A stern warning, maybe? A Rs. 100 fine? Nah! That would be way too harsh! :roll:

Face it - there is no way to end terrorism, other than to KILL the terrorists and their paymasters and DESTROY their ill-gotten wealth. And if the locals consider them herrows and protect them, then KILL them as well, and DESTROY their property too. Make it really costly to shelter or tolerate terrorism. Which is what the Israelis are doing.

So why hasn't the Israeli approach ended terrorism? Simple - because they haven't KILLED enough terrorists or DESTROYED enough of the terrorist paymasters' wealth.

To my way of thinking, it is the INDIAN GOVERNMENT's callous attitude and demonstration of the sheer lack of respect for the value of INDIAN LIVES that is extremely violent to the sense of decency of any human.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Chandragupta »

Chandragupta wrote:
renukb wrote: Let us see if the Israelis are going to behave the same and fight their enemies, if and when Iran goes nuclear. Fighting unarmed people is not bravery, Israelis are cowards committing dastardly acts. India should oppose Israeli actions in public.
renukb wrote:Drawing parallels between India-Pakistan and Israel-Palestein is futile ill logical... We need weapons and technology from Israel that's it. And for that we pay in hard $$. India should mean pure business with Israel and USA and give back only lip services at the max to them. No further political support to the dastardly acts of Israel.

Israel is Not a Victim
http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_ ... p?id=14590
Khud kuch karo nahi, jo kar raha hai usko bhi mat karne do. Typical dhimmi attitude.{borderline personal attack}

Unfortunately, India will & has already condemned Israel's action but something that will irk people like you for sure {Personal Attack #1}is guess what, it's just lip service. :lol:

Right now, India cannot support Israel openly, but we all know what goes on behind the doors. :D Israel & India are here to stay. I only wish that the day when India can finally come out & fully back Israel comes soon, but that would require the neutralisation of the Arab support to Pakistan.

Oh & btw, how was your Wagah trip? How many candles did you light up? {personal attack #2} :lol:
Apologies. :|

PS - Come to think of it, Personal Attack #1 is not really a personal attack, kindly reconsider. PA#2 was, I understand, uncalled for.
Last edited by Chandragupta on 05 Jan 2009 13:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by niran »

narayanan wrote:
So why hasn't the Israeli approach ended terrorism? Simple - because they haven't KILLED enough terrorists or DESTROYED enough of the terrorist paymasters' wealth.

To my way of thinking, it is the INDIAN GOVERNMENT's callous attitude and demonstration of the sheer lack of respect for the value of INDIAN LIVES that is extremely violent to the sense of decency of any human.
Yes, that's the core. not enough killed. no mater how one look at it, the only way for peace is complete destruction
of "Terrorists" and its production facilities. Once Netas grow the balls to acknowledge this, we shall begin to see "Peace"
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by IndraD »

I don't understand why is India condemning Israel as if Palestine would come to support us in the event if a war against terroristan. WHy can't we keep pur mouth shut or deliver a no harm message standing no where, it seems this response is to appease muslims in our country with elections in sight. I have Egyptian friend and they are supporting what Israel is doing but we can't. We have seen Arabs are chakka countries, including KSA, Iran etc why do we need their support when terroristan can't fire a few missiles into Israel as suggested by their national security advisor Zaid Hamid.. :mrgreen:
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Chandragupta »

Israel must take decisive action, they have the Hamas by the scruff of it's neck, if they let them go now, they will only come back with greater vengeance. History has it, that a half fought war always favors the weak. Hamas will use these strikes by Israel to recruit more brainwashed pigs from TSP & the Arab world, it's high time Israel wrapped it all up.
Once one sees these arguments, one sees why Indian response to terrorism is laughably pathetic. It represents the Will Of The Indian People.
Ofcourse, it has always been about the will of the people. A country that is reluctant to make sacrifices & afraid of blood will always be bullied. It's not hard to see how a small Island nation in distant Europe ruled us for 200 years.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Chinmayanand »

Philip
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

The real villain of the piece in the current cyclic war between Israel and her Palestinian neighbours ,is the US of A.The Bush administration did absolutely nothing to rein in the tension that was rapidly building up over the last 18 months.Buah's sponsorship for ther disgraced British ex-PM ,Tony Blair,as Middle East "Peace envoy"-a man who has never visited Gaza at all,and identified by the Arab world as partner in crime for Bush's catastrophic invasion of Iraq and the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis,was the final insult.The US claims to promote democracy,but when Hamas won the Gaza election fairly,it did everything in its power to destroy Hamas' credibility.Why did Hamas win? Thanks to the US's denunciation of Yasser Arafat,the man who had the most credibility in the Palestinian camp and internationally recognised as the supremo of the Palestinians (even if his regime was a rotten corrupt one),Arafat had the majority of Palestinians behind him.His untimely death and that of Israeli PM Ariel Sharon-two leaders who could've brokered peace,within a short span of each other, brought the hardline Hamas into the forefront.The lacklustre personality of Abbas saw to it that Hamas took over from Arafat the leadership of the Gaza populace.

The agreement5 in broad terms between both entities,was a trade-off of land for a guaranteed peace for Israel.Hamas has never acknowledged the Jewish state at all and with foreign backing,chiefly from Iran has along with the Hiz in Lebanon,grown in strength and military capability.Sadly,the Israeli's,due to coalition politics, also allowed the expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank,in land supposedly meant to be part of the Palestinian state.This is wheer the US could've used its influence upon bot Israel and the Palestinians,by halting the settlements and working doggedly towards a final peace package.It did nothing at all,allowing the frustartions on both sides to fester and ferment into the huge explosion right now.Both the Israelis and Palestinians do not trust each other at all,let alone Israel trusting Hamas who want them "thrown into the sea".In such a scenario,only a superpower with the assistance of the other major powers can crack heads together.Today the heads beign "cracked" come from Hamas' rockets and Israeli bombingIndia's satnd is pathetic.We make the usual condemnations in support of the Palestinians (have we sent the suffering civilians any relief supplies at all?),while buying billions of dollars of Israeli weaponry! It is a sad commentary on the lightweight influence of India right now in the 21st century,at a time when we are an economic powerhouse,completely disproportionate to our economic and military strength,when decads ago udner both Nehru and Indira Gandhi and for a time even Rajiv Gandhi,India's voice was heard with respect and authority worldwide.At this moment of crisis in the Midele east,India,which has good relations with both sides,should've been in the forefront of nations attempting to resolve the crisis,especially as we well know how Gandhi used non-violence to obtain his political ends instead of violence.Our insignificance in this tragic conflict is a disgrace to our post-independence history and reputation of global leadership during the Post-Colonial era and Cold War amongst the Non-Aligned nations.We are today being laughed at for not even being able to defend ourselves from wave after wave of Paki terrorism.

Here is a plea from a Rabbi as to what should be done by his country to bring about a lasting peace and reconciliation between both parties.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 446519.ece

It breaks my heart to see Israel's stupidity

It has a right to respond to attacks, but will not achieve its ultimate aim - peace - until it stops thinking in military terms
Michael Lerner

Israel's attempt to wipe out Hamas is understandable, but stupid. No country in the world is going to ignore the provocation of rockets being launched from neighbouring territory day after day. If Mexico had a group of anti-imperialists bombing Texas, imagine how long it would take for America to mobilise a counterattack. Israel has every right to respond.

But the kind of response matters. Killing 500 Palestinians and wounding 2,000 others (at the time of writing) is disproportionate. Hamas can harass, but it cannot pose any threat to the existence of Israel. And just as Hamas's indiscriminate bombing of population centres is a crime against humanity, so is Israel's killing of civilians (at least 130 so far in Gaza, not to mention the thousands in the years of the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza).

Hamas had respected the previously negotiated ceasefire except when Israel used it as cover to make assassination raids. Hamas argued that these raids were hardly a manifestation of a ceasefire, and so as symbolic protest it would allow the release of rocket fire (usually hitting no targets). But when the issue of continuing the ceasefire came up, Hamas wanted a guarantee that these assassination raids would stop. And it asked for more. With hundreds of thousands of Palestinians facing acute malnutrition, Hamas insists that the borders be opened so that food can arrive unimpeded. And in return for the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, it asks for the release of 1,000 Palestinians imprisoned in Israel.

Hamas has made it clear that it would accept the terms of the Saudi Arabian peace agreement, though it would never formally recognise Israel. It would live peacefully in a two-state arrangement, but it would never acknowledge Israel's “right to exist”. This position is unnecessarily provocative, and is deeply self-destructive for Palestinians who believe it is the only symbolic weapon they have left.

How do we get out of this destructive spiral? The first step is for the world to demand an immediate ceasefire. That ceasefire should be imposed by the United Nations and backed unequivocally by America. Its terms must include the following:

— Hamas stops all firing of missiles, bombs or any other violent action originating from the West Bank or Gaza, and co-operates in actively jailing anyone from any faction that breaks this ceasefire.

— Israel stops all bombing, targeted assassinations or any other violent actions aimed at activists, militants, or suspected terrorists in the West Bank or Gaza, and uses the full force of its army to prevent any further attacks on Palestinians.

— Israel opens the border with Gaza and allows free access to and from Israel, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons. Israel allows free travel of food, gas, electricity, water and consumer goods and materials including from land, air, and sea, subject only to full search and seizure of any weapons or materials typically used for weapons.

— Israel releases all Palestinians in detention and returns them to the West Bank or Gaza according to the choice of the detainees or prisoners. Hamas releases Gilad Schalit and anyone else being held by Palestinian forces.

— Both sides invite an international force to implement these agreements

— Both sides agree to end teaching and/or advocacy of violence against the other side in and outside mosques, educational institutions, and the media.

— This ceasefire would last for 20 years. Nato, the UN, and the US all agree to enforce this agreement and impose severe sanctions in the event of any violations.

These steps would make a huge difference, isolate the most radical members of each side from the mainstream, and make it possible to then begin negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians on a broader and deeper set of issues.

The basic condition for creating peace is to help each side feel “safe”. A first and critical step is to speak in a language that is empathic toward the suffering of each people in a climate of discourse in which both sides' stories are heard and understood.

Yet Israel, as the militarily superior power, ought to take the first steps: implementing a massive Marshall Plan in Gaza and in the West Bank to end poverty and unemployment, rebuild infrastructure and encourage investment; dismantle the settlements or make settlers become citizens of a Palestinian state; accept 30,000 Palestinian refugees annually back into Israel for the next 30 years, apologise for its role in the 1948 expulsions and offer to co-ordinate a worldwide compensation effort for all that Palestinians lost during the Occupation; and recognise a Palestinian state within borders already defined by the Geneva Accord of 2003.

This is the only way Israel will ever achieve security. It is the only way to permanently defeat Hamas and all extremists who wish to see endless war against Israel.

The most significant contribution the new Obama administration could make to Middle East peace would be to embrace a strategy that homeland security is best achieved not by military or economic domination but by generosity and caring for others. If this new way of thinking could become a serious part of US policy, it would have an immense impact on undermining the fearful consciousness of Israelis who still see the world more through the frame of the Holocaust and previous persecutions than through the frame of their actual present power in the world.

It breaks my heart to see the terrible suffering in Gaza and in Israel. As a religious Jew I find it all the worse, because it confirms to me how easy it is to pervert the loving message of Judaism into a message of hatred and domination. I remain in mourning for the Jewish people, for Israel and for the world.

Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of Tikkun magazine. ([email protected])
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by enqyoob »

I am sorry, but it irritates the heck out of me to read pompous pontification, in this case I mean what the Rabbi has written (is that rabbification, I wonder?)

HOW the pakistan does the Rabbi propose to make this work?
That ceasefire should be imposed by the United Nations and backed unequivocally by America. Its terms must include the following:

— Hamas stops all firing of missiles, bombs or any other violent action originating from the West Bank or Gaza, and co-operates in actively jailing anyone from any faction that breaks this ceasefire.


Like the UN and America are doing in Iraq? In Afghanistan? Like Pakistan is observing the UN-negotiated ceasefires of 1948, and 65? So the Rabbi is merely being a complete ass, trying to score cheap publicity points, and demonstrating his utter lack of sincerity and credibility. Hence my irritation. The guy sits behind the protection afforded by the young people whom Israel sends to defend its borders and kill the terrorists whose aim in life is to disembowel people like the rabbi, and spouts such garbage.

The rabbi, no doubt, is not alone - millions of pompous pundits in India too believe in such "solutions".
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

Renukb, how exactly, given that you understand the realities of the 1948 and 1967 and 1973 Arab aggressions, does Israel's holding on to war-liberated land constitute "moral wrongs"? Agreed, they didn't rush in to do a Haji Pir Pass return or a Tashkent Land Giveaway, but maybe that is why they are still alive?
just finished the definitive book on the 1967 war, 6 days of war, Michael Oren.

the ONLY reason why Israel held on to the sinai, west bank and golan heights was :
a) israel wanted to return the land in exchange of a non-aggression pact with all 3 arab states
b) the arab states refused to even recognise israel or its right to exist ! :roll:
of course there could be NO negotiations with a state you don't recognise
c)even after nasser's death sadat made it clear that what was lost by war could only be won by war.

when destruction of the state of israel and its inhabitants is the declared policy of its neighbours, it must be said that israel acted with utmost restraint.
some of the cartoons that came out in the arab media highlights the prevalent mentality pretty well. a nazi would feel right at home with it.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

>>Read about 1967 Israeli-Arab war and check out how much land Israel is holding.

Let's just say been there done that. But this does not explain why Israel is the aggressor, just that there was a war the Arabs started and then ended up losing land.

But I see where you are coming from in this sentence "In the moral world...Israelis are the aggressors"... Let us assume, now that Israel is pounding Gaza into pregnancy, Israelis are, indeed the aggressors at this point. Was Hamas the aggressor when it was lobbing rockets into Israel? Are there ANY circumstances, short of doing to Israel what Israel is doing now to Gaza, in which Hamas will be the aggressor?

And in such a situation why should Israel want to be the receiving side? To be "in the moral world"? And which moral world is this? The same one in which Hamas explicitly states its desire is to see Israel destroyed and the Jews pushed into the sea, purely on the basis of their faith? This is no more a case of "Land for Peace" than South Lebanon was. Israel vacated South Lebanon, and see what's going on there...

If Hamas abjures the path of violence completely through declaration and action, teaches Palestinian youth that Jews are decent human beings just like the rest of us, accepts the land which Israel is prepared to give now, and demonstrably works to improve the Palestinian economy and improve socio-economic conditions, and if still Israel continues to bomb and shell, then you could say that Israel is the aggressor. Now there are two aggressors: just that one with its piddling weaponry and its nauseatingly primitive and unworkable ideology of religious supremacy is getting the hiding of its life.

There is no effective moral case against Israel here. Hamas is no paragon of morality. And don't confuse Hamas with the Palestinians as a whole (you may recall they were killing each other barely a year ago). Israel is by no means a saintly entity. Why should it be, with such neighbours? But we do know that Israel is perfectly prepared to make peace with its neighbours and live peacefully. The problem is that the neighbours want their extermination.
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Re: Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

Post by Dhiman »

As expected (and indeed in keeping with the norm), Mr. Arun Gandhi's (grandson of Mahatma Gandhi) career took a hit after publication of his blog post Jewish Identity Can't Depend Upon Violence:
Jewish identity in the past has been locked into the holocaust experience -- a German burden that the Jews have not been able to shed. It is a very good example of a community can overplay a historic experience to the point that it begins to repulse friends. The holocaust was the result of the warped mind of an individual who was able to influence his followers into doing something dreadful. But, it seems to me the Jews today not only want the Germans to feel guilty but the whole world must regret what happened to the Jews. The world did feel sorry for the episode but when an individual or a nation refuses to forgive and move on the regret turns into anger.

The Jewish identity in the future appears bleak. Any nation that remains anchored to the past is unable to move ahead and, especially a nation that believes its survival can only be ensured by weapons and bombs. In Tel Aviv in 2004 I had the opportunity to speak to some Members of Parliament and Peace activists all of whom argued that the wall and the military build-up was necessary to protect the nation and the people. In other words, I asked, you believe that you can create a snake pit -- with many deadly snakes in it -- and expect to live in the pit secure and alive? What do you mean? they countered. Well, with your superior weapons and armaments and your attitude towards your neighbors would it not be right to say that you are creating a snake pit? How can anyone live peacefully in such an atmosphere? Would it not be better to befriend those who hate you? Can you not reach out and share your technological advancement with your neighbors and build a relationship?

Apparently, in the modern world, so determined to live by the bomb, this is an alien concept. You don't befriend anyone, you dominate them. We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity.
Reference:
Jewish Identity Can't Depend Upon Violence
Arun Gandhi Quits Peace Institute in Flap Over Blog Posting
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