J & K news and discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jan 2009 20:21

as per tv report the place is only 4km from LOC. on the upper reaches it is bare rocky slopes with some boulders. in lower side of hills is a temperate
forest of moderate density. this was shown on tv yesterday..some SOG type
people were posted near the reporters hill.

the IAF could be called in to napalm the place down.

but maybe strategy is to exhaust them and capture a few alive if possible,
hence the wait-n-watch strategy in place.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 07 Jan 2009 21:14

SaiK wrote:can't one smoke 'em out? why wait and watch? tear gas is good enough!?

"We will flush them out,’’

Well, the terrorists will have to go potty sometime!!

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 07 Jan 2009 21:17

Singha wrote:as per tv report the place is only 4km from LOC. on the upper reaches it is bare rocky slopes with some boulders. in lower side of hills is a temperate forest of moderate density. this was shown on tv yesterday..some SOG type people were posted near the reporters hill. the IAF could be called in to napalm the place down. but maybe strategy is to exhaust them and capture a few alive if possible, hence the wait-n-watch strategy in place.

Could this be bigger than previously thought? A mini Kargil?

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 07 Jan 2009 21:24

It could be a mini-kargil or "kargil in making" situation. It shows how porous the borders are and level of intelligence available in border areas.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 07 Jan 2009 21:29

Cannot rule out the possibilities of TSPA stepping up the ante. Mumbai carnage failed to generate the preferred response from india, ie war hysteria. So they have to go to the next level. A small intrusion ala Kargil across the LOC to push the cowering Hindus down the path of war. According to TSP this will force GOI to abandon the strategy it is currently pursuing, ie 'war no option onlee' while making it obvious that something is cooking. TSP expects a major jhapad from Yindians. They are unable to predict where, when or from whom it will come. So they plan a game changer. Can some guru look into IA tactics against this intrusion and try to get a clearer picture please.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 07 Jan 2009 22:16

Why is every news report including DDM refers to Poonch being in KAshmir?
It's a district of Jammu, not Kashmir.

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Jan 2009 22:20

jamwal wrote:Why is every news report including DDM refers to Poonch being in KAshmir?
It's a district of Jammu, not Kashmir.

AFAIK, J&K is Kashmir for 90% of our DDM.

nsa_tanay · Post by **nsa_tanay** » 08 Jan 2009 00:18

but still, what is taking army 8 days to kill those extremists/terrorists ? After all its 1500 army/commandos against 7 to 10 people ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Jan 2009 00:22

anupmisra wrote:
Singha wrote:as per tv report the place is only 4km from LOC. on the upper reaches it is bare rocky slopes with some boulders. in lower side of hills is a temperate forest of moderate density. this was shown on tv yesterday..some SOG type people were posted near the reporters hill. the IAF could be called in to napalm the place down. but maybe strategy is to exhaust them and capture a few alive if possible, hence the wait-n-watch strategy in place.
Could this be bigger than previously thought? A mini Kargil?

as per times now, as of this evening army has categorically ruled out concrete bunkers/sangars and said that the terrorists are in natural cave formations.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 08 Jan 2009 00:24

As the concrete bunkers in Kargil?

archan · Post by **archan** » 08 Jan 2009 03:57

nsa_tanay wrote:but still, what is taking army 8 days to kill those extremists/terrorists ? After all its 1500 army/commandos against 7 to 10 people ?

Things would have been different if they wanted to just kill them all. That our forces are waiting for days for pakis' food/ammunition to run out shows that they think that the pigs are more useful when they sing. It is a good thing that they are holed up in a secluded cave. It will be rather easy to catch them alive unless they blow themselves up with the last grenades they might have left. What would probably have been best was if they could somehow aim and shoot a gas bomb through the cave entrance which would make them unconscious.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 09 Jan 2009 04:26

Army calls off Poonch operation after eight days

Army calls off Poonch operation after eight days
Press Trust Of India
Poonch, January 09, 2009
First Published: 00:46 IST(9/1/2009)
Last Updated: 00:53 IST(9/1/2009)

The security forces late on Thursday night called off its operation against militants who were holed up in caves inside a dense jungle of Jammu and Kashmir's Bhati Dhar near the LoC for eight days and said the ultras may have slipped out.

"The operation has been called off. The possibility of militants having escaped cannot be ruled out", said Defence Spokesman S N Acharya capping the futile search for the militants whom the security forces had engaged in a battle.

The encounter, which has been going on since January 1, has claimed the lives of four militants and three security personnel including a Junior Commissioned Officer.

The suspension of the anti-militancy offensive came after a major combing operation was launched by the army earlier in the day cordoning all sides of the area in Bhati Dhar forest belt to zero in on the militants who were sheltered in the caves, Brigadier General Staff (BGS), 16 Corps, Brig Gurdeep Singh told PTI here.

"We want to squeeze their space and then launch an assault. Troops have closed in on the cave hideouts after searching the forest belt around it", he said, adding that a go-slow strategy has been adopted in view of the heavy fog, dense forest and cave-like hideouts which provide a major shield to terrorists hiding there.

Security forces have fired rockets and mortars targeting the cave hideouts in the forest.

"We will not allow them to escape from the spot. The operation will finish after the recovery of their bodies," they had said.

Intercepts available with the security forces suggested that there were about ten militants, some of them top commanders of Jaish-e-Mohammed, and Lashkar-e-Taiba.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Jan 2009 09:16

Serious goofup here?

Hope we dont see some news report after a year or so wherein it mentions that the architects of some recent bombing/mayhem( after a year) were almost gunned down by the army in this encounter but managed to slip away!!!

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 09 Jan 2009 10:14

Sorry to say this but, what a pathetic display by IA if they allowed pigs to escape. All this talk about we will wear them first before finishing them is just talk. Also shows that either we don't have adequate firepower or they are thinking about cost of firepower.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 09 Jan 2009 11:13

milindc wrote:Sorry to say this but, what a pathetic display by IA if they allowed pigs to escape. All this talk about we will wear them first before finishing them is just talk. Also shows that either we don't have adequate firepower or they are thinking about cost of firepower.

You are a bit presumptuous, aren't you? What do you know of the ground situation, sitting comfy on your armchair, general?

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 09 Jan 2009 11:51

Rishi wrote:
milindc wrote:Sorry to say this but, what a pathetic display by IA if they allowed pigs to escape. All this talk about we will wear them first before finishing them is just talk. Also shows that either we don't have adequate firepower or they are thinking about cost of firepower.
You are a bit presumptuous, aren't you? What do you know of the ground situation, sitting comfy on your armchair, general?

Rishi,
I don't understand how I'm presumptuous, I'm voicing my opinion based on the quote from Army spokesman. The area of engagement was defined, per earlier reports Army deployed a 3-tier cordon involving some 2000 personnel. The tactical plans were decided by Army personnel including the decision for 'wait and watch' approach. Yes, the weather turned on them, but that doesn't absolve the decision makers if that allowed the pigs to escape.
Now, are we not allowed to comment unless we fight in battlefront? Probably, you can point out how I was presumptuous instead of calling me an armchair general.

"The operation has been called off. The possibility of militants having escaped cannot be ruled out", said Defence Spokesman S N Acharya capping the futile search for the militants whom the security forces had engaged in a battle.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 09 Jan 2009 15:12

They were called off because the politicos asked those 2000 army men to start supplying petrol to your home.

Next time, stand infront of a soccer goalpost and try to stop every shot from every angle.

How much terrain information do you have, what they had was an approximate location, 1 sq km will be equivalent to the more than the size of Dharavi, now imagine that size with mountains (not hills), snow etc etc.

In short rambo is just a movie.

and finally, who knows, they might have been caught but "officially" not found.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 09 Jan 2009 15:49

milindc wrote:
Rishi wrote: You are a bit presumptuous, aren't you? What do you know of the ground situation, sitting comfy on your armchair, general?
Rishi,
I don't understand how I'm presumptuous, I'm voicing my opinion based on the quote from Army spokesman. The area of engagement was defined, per earlier reports Army deployed a 3-tier cordon involving some 2000 personnel. The tactical plans were decided by Army personnel including the decision for 'wait and watch' approach. Yes, the weather turned on them, but that doesn't absolve the decision makers if that allowed the pigs to escape.
Now, are we not allowed to comment unless we fight in battlefront? Probably, you can point out how I was presumptuous instead of calling me an armchair general.
"The operation has been called off. The possibility of militants having escaped cannot be ruled out", said Defence Spokesman S N Acharya capping the futile search for the militants whom the security forces had engaged in a battle.

The presumption on your part is that the pigs escaped due an Army F*** up. Who knows, maybe that is true. But it is not correct to presume that, because we do not know why/how they escaped. Their escape inspite of a 3 tier cordon does not necessarily mean the Army did a pathetic job.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jan 2009 16:29

I have a feeling this was done on the instance of Abdullah the junior.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 09 Jan 2009 16:29

Army keeps up search for militants in Poonch

The army on Friday kept up the search for militants who escaped from a dense forest in Poonch district of Jammu and Kashmir after an eight-day battle with security forces.

There was a "possibility of terrorists having slipped out taking advantage of the rugged terrain and prevailing climatic conditions", the army said late Thursday night.

Seven people, including four militants and three security personnel, were killed in the first three days of the battle that began January 1. But the army has not yet recovered the bodies of the killed militants.

A source in the army said no exchange of fire had taken place with the hiding terrorists throughout on Thursday, though the troops had been on alert.

The soldiers had busted three hideouts and all they found were edible oil, dal, rice and cooking gas cylinders. "All the caves where the militants were hiding had two openings," the army source said.

He said there was no idea how many militants were inside the forest, "but one thing is sure that there are no bunkers. The terrorists are using natural caves as their hideouts".

Singh had said the militants tried to breach the cordon Tuesday night "but the troops fired at them pushing them back into the jungle".

Mendhar has always been a traditional infiltration route of militants sneaking into the Indian side from Pakistan across the Line of Control (LoC) that divides Kashmir between the two countries. It provides access to the Kashmir Valley through mountain passes.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Jan 2009 17:12

nsa_tanay wrote:but still, what is taking army 8 days to kill those extremists/terrorists ? After all its 1500 army/commandos against 7 to 10 people ?

are you personally willing to lead the charge into the cave complex? i don't think i would be
How many men will die to get these 7-10 in a strongly fortified position?
is it a price worth paying?
are there other ways?
do we know everything about this incident?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 09 Jan 2009 18:15

I dont think anyone escaped; although its a possibility that cant be ruled out; the other possibility that cant be ruled out is that some of them are now state guests somewhere; of course like good hosts we didn't bother taking their signatures on the welcome book when we did that.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 09 Jan 2009 19:05

What are the chances that the pigs who were in the area are the same 6 that girly boy Kasab trained with and was talking about? What are the chances that they are already hanging upside down in some kaal kothri?
Having said that it is high time NDTV and CNN IBN face some heat for their traitorous reporting, firstly they seemed to be praising the pigs for holding out against 1500 men(the figure then came down to 350), then they started talking about how the army botched the operation. Am I the only one who detects a certain amount of glee when the female reporters on both IBN and NDTV report this piece of news?

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 09 Jan 2009 19:45

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Oper ... latestnews

Operation called off in Poonch, militants untraced: Army
9 Jan 2009, 1800 hrs IST, PTI

JAMMU: The army on Friday launched search operations in surrounding forest areas of Bhati Dar to look for militants who might have fled during

the nine-day operation that was called off on Thursday night.

"We have called off the operation last night at Bhati Dhar forest area but search in the adjoining forest would continue", Gurdeep Singh, Brigadier General Staff (BGS), 16 Corps, said.

He said the possibility of militants having fled cannot be ruled out as there has been no firing from anywhere since Thursday.

The operation began on 31 December at 1600 hours after reports of a group of militants hiding in the area.

Heavy fog and dense forest cover, coupled with poor visibility, provided a perfect cover to the militants who were able to engage the army for so long.

Intercepts available with the security forces suggest that there were about ten militants, some of them top commanders of JeM and LeT, trapped in the area out of which four have been killed, defence sources said.

Three security force personnel also laid down their lives in the operation.

However, the bodies of ultras have not be recovered so far, Northern Command spokesman Col D K Kachari said.

The local police, meanwhile, has arrested two persons in connection with aiding the holed-up terrorists. One of them, Muzaffar Shah, is a retired assistant sub-inspector.

Muneeza Begum, an anganwadi worker and wife of an NRI Mohammad Shafiq, was also arrested from Thara village in Mendhar for her alleged involvement in supporting the militants.

These people seem to have been fighting with ghosts!!!

How come they can't even find the dead bodies of the four terrorists?? This is not new, unfortunately! It seems that IA relies less on technology to address issues than on grunt power.

These people put out this pathetic alibi of dense fog and forest cover in not being able to nail these terrorists. I say, so what?? We are not fighting in the 15th. century!! When will these IA folks learn to fight smart?? It's the lowly jawan who gets sacrificed. They are martyred, their families are devastated, but the ineptness of the tactics used is never addressed. The media is also totally incompetent in that it doesn't ask incisive questions.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Jan 2009 20:08

These people put out this pathetic alibi of dense fog and forest cover in not being able to nail these terrorists. I say, so what??

Sir, currently we are only depending on the IAs handout that they have escaped. Havet we critised the forces earlier that their media friendliness is causing lots of secret info to be leaked out?
So, its plausible that the guys were found to be important and higher ups decided that its better to take the media glare off this operation by some plain old disinformation. For all you know, some of these "escaped" pigs might be hanging upside down in a dungeon...

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 09 Jan 2009 20:22

Look, if a team of 10 desperate but highly-trained "Special forces" type terrorists is faced with the problem sneaking BACK ACROSS THE LOC to their home slum, there's nothing very strange with 6 of the ten actually making it across. If they have made it across.

Consider that several hundred who are not trained anywhere near this level make it INTO India every year.

The ten may very well have set some 4 terrorists as a rearguard to allow the rest to escape. 4 can APPEAR to be 10 by controlling several guns placed at different places, for some hours.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Jan 2009 22:11

The ten may very well have set some 4 terrorists as a rearguard to allow the rest to escape. 4 can APPEAR to be 10 by controlling several guns placed at different places, for some hours.

But, according to the IA handout, there is no trace of even those 4?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Jan 2009 23:41

Mendher is a very interesting terrain. It has thick pine (heavenly smell!), huge undergrowth at places and also interesting crop of boulders larger than a man. And also excellent plum. And the worst thing is that the range is dotted with ''passes'' where the thick pine makes visibility very low. Add to it, the low mist, which winter brings! Notwithstanding, my post is not to justify what has happened and the terrorist not captured.

In J&K, there is another interesting phenomenon. The whole border is mined, right from 1947 and with each war with 'resuscitated' minefields. The 1947 mines are Schue mines and I daresay that their ''life" is over, but still taken as 'active' mines. The Pakistanis repeatedly set fire and these fires explode the mines, but one does not know the exact extent of cleared areas because of such fires. The smugglers and infiltrators know, since they are the ones who possibly organise the 'fires' in concert with our excellent adversaries in Khaki.

Since the Army units tenure is for a certain time, they are not in the know where the fires have happened in the past. Therefore, they cannot venture into these minefields.

In the instant case, probably the terrorists escaped through the areas that were cleared and of which they were aware, using the cover of night and the pine tree density!

In 1971, a raid into POK was carried out from a neighbouring area and the party returned through a minefield (they had no option given the circumstances) and not one person of mine was blown up!

Notwithstanding, the instant case is a mystery.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 09 Jan 2009 23:55

sum wrote:
These people put out this pathetic alibi of dense fog and forest cover in not being able to nail these terrorists. I say, so what??
Sir, currently we are only depending on the IAs handout that they have escaped. Havet we critised the forces earlier that their media friendliness is causing lots of secret info to be leaked out?
So, its plausible that the guys were found to be important and higher ups decided that its better to take the media glare off this operation by some plain old disinformation. For all you know, some of these "escaped" pigs might be hanging upside down in a dungeon...

How long can one depend/believe in probabilities/fairy tales?

In that case Pakistan is definitely right - Masood Azhar and Dawood Ibrahim are not in Pakistan. Are we to also believe that they are doing the "bat act" (hanging upside down) in some RAW cave??

Individual bravery by soldiers is no substitute for institutional incompetence.

These scenarios bring to mind other long drawn out seiges in J&K where the army has surrounded the terrorists in a "watertight cordon" only for the primary culprits to melt away.

Remember Mast Gul?? Remember Op. Sarp Vinash?

What happened with all the synergy that was much in vogue among the tri services. If i look at the entire operation, it's an abject failure!

The army/media keep on parroting about the thick fog/dense forest. As i have said before, so what?? Where is all the technology?? That is the trump card that the army has.

If 10 guys in Bombay and 10 guys in Mendhar can run circles around Indian security agencies - how will they fare against a truly technologically superior force?

satya · Post by **satya** » 10 Jan 2009 00:03

This 'vanishing act' by 6-10 Jihadis tells us something more disturbing about present loopholes in our security grid & future jihadis who will form the bulk of terrorists fighting in J&K & rest of India :

1. As Brigadier Ray has told us about the terrain , and considering it being such a prized real estate why did security forces not have permanently stationed well-informed pathfinders type troops who could have told of possible escape routes ? Its been almost 2 decades since we are fighting Jihadis in J&K and yet again we are told such things do happen ..........

2. Jihadis either they have the real prized smugglers /OGWs who knew this terrain far better & not only escape of 6 out of 10 means they were well trained in retreat type operations and knew more about Indian security forces logistics and time they need to actually come for combat . Brings us back to these OGWs , they are still active and plentiful for when comes the real need they are always available .

3. What looks more n more likely is this core group of Jihadis are definitely learning & upgrading their skill sets & a core group has survived long enough something like specialists for specific terrain in J&K that helps them when such a situation arise .Its sort of Jihadi Evolution in insurgency warfare .

4. More n more likely in future , we will see Jihadis trained at levels seen in Mumbai incident at bare minimum .For they are now fighting the battle of perception and Mumbai incident & now this vanishing act has definitely provided them a big boost among average abduls . For any explanations about lack of knowledge about terrain will be lost except in the end they knew better than us so they survived . Hopefully Indian Security Forces will learn and make sure not first to create such a big media hype about every 21st terrorist not mentioned in the list present there and then made to eat their words , its not doing us any good . We can argue about this but i am sure we all can agree in perception its 2-0 to Jihadis .

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 10 Jan 2009 00:28

satya wrote:This 'vanishing act' by 6-10 Jihadis tells us something more disturbing about present loopholes in our security grid & future jihadis who will form the bulk of terrorists fighting in J&K & rest of India :

1. As Brigadier Ray has told us about the terrain , and considering it being such a prized real estate why did security forces not have permanently stationed well-informed pathfinders type troops who could have told of possible escape routes ? Its been almost 2 decades since we are fighting Jihadis in J&K and yet again we are told such things do happen ..........

2. Jihadis either they have the real prized smugglers /OGWs who knew this terrain far better & not only escape of 6 out of 10 means they were well trained in retreat type operations and knew more about Indian security forces logistics and time they need to actually come for combat . Brings us back to these OGWs , they are still active and plentiful for when comes the real need they are always available .

3. What looks more n more likely is this core group of Jihadis are definitely learning & upgrading their skill sets & a core group has survived long enough something like specialists for specific terrain in J&K that helps them when such a situation arise .Its sort of Jihadi Evolution in insurgency warfare .

4. More n more likely in future , we will see Jihadis trained at levels seen in Mumbai incident at bare minimum .For they are now fighting the battle of perception and Mumbai incident & now this vanishing act has definitely provided them a big boost among average abduls . For any explanations about lack of knowledge about terrain will be lost except in the end they knew better than us so they survived . Hopefully Indian Security Forces will learn and make sure not first to create such a big media hype about every 21st terrorist not mentioned in the list present there and then made to eat their words , its not doing us any good . We can argue about this but i am sure we all can agree in perception its 2-0 to Jihadis .

Satya,

In the real world, each one preserve his 'turf'. No smuggler or an agent will inform anyone of the route 'without mines'. His value will be lost and his livelihood compromised!

What is OGW?

The so called 'jihadis' who are from Indian Kashmir are no jihadis. They are there for money, including the old goat Geelani, who I believe is funded by the ISI and the RAW. The whole Kashmiri stuff is all about money and Kashmiris are a lazier lot than hinterland Indians. The British have said so and so have I seen and I am, what the British would call a 'Kashmir hand'.

Whenever, I was posted in Kashmir ( served in every rank till retirement). I made them work for the help we gave. If they wanted a Mosque, I gave the material, but never built it.If a person uses his own labour for his own aspiration, he will protect it. Freebies can be destroyed; who cares?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jan 2009 00:43

looks like the six did a Satyam trick and vanished.

I think some of them were Kasab's cohort. If four were known to be dead how come there are no bodies? Something doesnt add up.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 10 Jan 2009 01:35

RayC sir,

You've been to Poonch-Rajouri area? Played golf on Rajouri airfield?

Can that airfield be used to land fighter planes or heavy lift transporters?

I was in that area last summer. People told stories how terrorists had free run at the hills near the population centres. Army/RR did a great job pushing them out. But very few non-muslim families are left there now.

satya · Post by **satya** » 10 Jan 2009 01:46

Brigadier Ray

OGW = over ground workers / logistic nod for Jihadis .It seem over the years , we were able to eliminate foot soldiers leaving behind majority of their logistic nods intact & its coming back to haunt us. On matter of these smugglers/guides , if we have not been able to buy them over or they are simply turncoats by their very nature then just let these be eliminated if i know that there is a person who knows the password to my locker , why should i let him go if value of stuff inside locker is valuable ? And going by the 'turncoat' nature of Kashmiris there's no point in keeping extra weight on Earth.

Another thing and hopefully you too will agree , this over enthusiasm now being shown by security agencies whether in Mumbai Attack or this Vanishing act or even a regular ARC flight over Srilanka , we are scoring more self goals in this battle of perception .

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 10 Jan 2009 04:11

RayC wrote:
satya wrote:This 'vanishing act' by 6-10 Jihadis tells us something more disturbing about present loopholes in our security grid & future jihadis who will form the bulk of terrorists fighting in J&K & rest of India :

1. As Brigadier Ray has told us about the terrain , and considering it being such a prized real estate why did security forces not have permanently stationed well-informed pathfinders type troops who could have told of possible escape routes ? Its been almost 2 decades since we are fighting Jihadis in J&K and yet again we are told such things do happen ..........

2. Jihadis either they have the real prized smugglers /OGWs who knew this terrain far better & not only escape of 6 out of 10 means they were well trained in retreat type operations and knew more about Indian security forces logistics and time they need to actually come for combat . Brings us back to these OGWs , they are still active and plentiful for when comes the real need they are always available .

3. What looks more n more likely is this core group of Jihadis are definitely learning & upgrading their skill sets & a core group has survived long enough something like specialists for specific terrain in J&K that helps them when such a situation arise .Its sort of Jihadi Evolution in insurgency warfare .

4. More n more likely in future , we will see Jihadis trained at levels seen in Mumbai incident at bare minimum .For they are now fighting the battle of perception and Mumbai incident & now this vanishing act has definitely provided them a big boost among average abduls . For any explanations about lack of knowledge about terrain will be lost except in the end they knew better than us so they survived . Hopefully Indian Security Forces will learn and make sure not first to create such a big media hype about every 21st terrorist not mentioned in the list present there and then made to eat their words , its not doing us any good . We can argue about this but i am sure we all can agree in perception its 2-0 to Jihadis .
Satya,

In the real world, each one preserve his 'turf'. No smuggler or an agent will inform anyone of the route 'without mines'. His value will be lost and his livelihood compromised!

What is OGW?

The so called 'jihadis' who are from Indian Kashmir are no jihadis. They are there for money, including the old goat Geelani, who I believe is funded by the ISI and the RAW. The whole Kashmiri stuff is all about money and Kashmiris are a lazier lot than hinterland Indians. The British have said so and so have I seen and I am, what the British would call a 'Kashmir hand'.

Whenever, I was posted in Kashmir ( served in every rank till retirement). I made them work for the help we gave. If they wanted a Mosque, I gave the material, but never built it.If a person uses his own labour for his own aspiration, he will protect it. Freebies can be destroyed; who cares?

Interesting. Can you elaborate on the RAW's support to Geelani. Why would Raw be interested in that?

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 10 Jan 2009 04:39

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 958454.cms

The six other terrorists, out of the batch that went to Bombay, are in Srinagar...

6 LeT men, trained with Kasab, now in Kashmir
10 Jan 2009, 0156 hrs IST, M Saleem Pandit, TNN

JAMMU: Dispelling the earlier theory that the Mumbai attackers were only ten in number, a top police source in Kashmir said 16 terrorists were
deployed for the attack in India in November, 2008. While 10 of 16 LeT terrorists reached Mumbai by sea, the other six, according to the source, arrived in Srinagar via Nepal and Bangladesh and are presently operating in Bandipora Lolab area of North Kashmir.

The source said security agencies intercepted wireless conservations between the group headed by one Lashkar commander Musa with masters at Lashkar headquarters in Punjab in Pakistan. This group of six terrorists in north Kashmir seems to be demoralized after the killing of the nine of the 10 Mumbai attackers, the police source said quoting wireless interceptions.

The presence of six terrorists in north Kashmir gives credence to the statement of Ajmal Amir Kasab, the lone terrorist arrested in Mumbai, that they were 32 in number and six of them were sent for operation elsewhere.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jan 2009 05:10

Pranay, Good that means India can persuade them to surrender would be great coup. Now everything falls into place.

Rishi^2, If it wasnt for kaccha support the guy would be murdered long time ago. So its not direct evidence but by deduction.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 10 Jan 2009 11:04

I get this feeling that the Paks are using thier LRRP/DPU units for such ops. Look at the description below:

Militants used Bhati Dhar forests for 5 years

By Sanjeev Pargal

JAMMU, Jan 9: More than a dozen civilians including a woman, Quresha, have gone underground from areas surrounding Bhati Dhar following a hunt launched by police for them after revelations made by arrested persons including a retired ASI that Pakistani commanders of Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) and some other outfits had made permanent shelters in cave hide-outs of Bhati Dhar forests in Mendhar area of Poonch district with the help of locals.

Official sources said a NRI Mohd Shafiq’s wife, Muneeza Begum, arrested by the police from Bhati Dhar, was not the woman wanted by police, who had been carrying arms and ration supplies for Pakistani militants commanders of Jaish outfit inside the forests.

The woman, who had actively been working for Jaish outfit, has been identified as Quresha, a resident of Bhati Dhar. Soon after Intelligence agencies flashed a message, Quresha was reported to have gone under-ground.

A massive search operation has been launched to apprehend her.

According to sources, more than a dozen civilians of Bhati Dhar surroundings have so far been identified by police and security agencies, who were well aware of militant activities inside the forests including permanent shelter places raised by them using natural cave hide-outs.

These civilians, four of whom have been arrested so far, were constantly in touch with the militants in Bhati Dhar forests and were also instrumental in providing them logistic support. Besides Muneeza Begum, three other civilians arrested so far have been identified as Retired ASI Muzaffar Shah, Mohd Bashir and Mohd Iqbal, all residents of Bhati Dhar.

Inputs gathered by security and police agencies have revealed that the militants had been using Bhati Dhar hide-outs for last more than five years. There were more than 30 natural caves, which had been converted into permanent shelter places by Pakistani militant commanders using GI sheets and boulders.

The cave hide-outs had virtually been converted into fortified bunkers, three of which were destroyed by the troops during searches inside dense Bhati Dhar forests. A couple of more hide-outs were blasted today by security forces using mines.

According to sources, the militants used to set off from the forests on specific missions and then returned if the mission was successful. The hide-outs continued to be replaced by Jaish commanders when their associates, putting up there were killed or apprehended, or they returned to Pakistan after completing their tenure.

This process was going on for last about five years and was in the knowledge of some civilians. While some locals had connived with the militants, others didn’t sound security agencies for the fear of getting killed.

Sources, however, admitted that it was major lapse on part of police, security and Intelligence agencies who couldn’t detect such major hide-outs of the militants from where they were operating for last more than five years.

Conversion of natural cave hide-outs into fortified bunkers by the militants using GI sheets and boulders in the forests was only a second incident of its kind in Jammu region after Hill Kaka in Surankote area of Poonch district.

In Hill Kaka, the militants had constructed concrete bunkers and an aerial operation had to be conducted to wipe out more than 50 ultras about seven years back.

Though the cave hide-outs had capacity to accommodate nearly 30 militants besides huge quantity of weaponry and ration, only top commanders were allowed to use them. According to sources, at the time of launch of search operation by Army and police in the forests on December 30, there could at least 10 to 12 militants in the hide-outs.

Army have confirmed the killing of four militants though their bodies have not been recovered so far. Two Army soldiers and a SPO have lost their lives in the operation that was called off abruptly by the Army last evening following reports that the militants had managed to escape taking advantage of rugged terrain and hostile weather conditions.

However, sources said, small teams of Army and police continued searches inside the forests even today as well though it was not the large scale operation that had been going on for last 10 days till yesterday.

This was the longest ever search operation in Jammu region which lasted 10 days but without a major success. Prior to this, security forces had conducted searches in Ghati forests in Kathua district in September 2003 for 5 days but the militants there too had remained elusive. Three security personnel were killed and eight others were injured in the operation.

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Jan 2009 15:06

I still feel there is more that meets the eye in this entire "drama"...
Wonder if the news of 6 of the other pigs of Kasabs gang turning up in Kashmir is also linked to the present encounter?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Jan 2009 15:23

Interesting. Can you elaborate on the RAW's support to Geelani. Why would Raw be interested in that?

I'm not in a position to comment if R&AW is actually controlling geelani, but his going overboard with the "we are muslims and pakistanis" theme certainly discredited the separatist movement a great deal and the APHC too in the process.