ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 22 Nov 2008 05:29

Japan says US missile defence test fails

renukb · Post by **renukb** » 07 Dec 2008 10:45

US successfully tests anti-missile shield: Pentagon
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... YxR9z1o_FQ
1 day ago

WASHINGTON (AFP) — The Pentagon it successfully intercepted a long-range missile target in a simulated attack to test the defense system it wants to expand in Eastern Europe to counter attacks from North Korea or Iran.

"This was the largest, most complex task that we've ever done," Lieutenant General Patrick O'Reilly, director of the Pentagon's Missile Defense Agency said Friday.

But the target missile's countermeasures, intended to simulate decoys from enemy missiles -- precisely what critics of the defense shield doubt the system could overcome -- failed to deploy, he said.

"Countermeasures are very difficult to deploy," he said, adding that "there are many threats today that don't have countermeasures."

The interception took place at 3:29 pm (2029 GMT), Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said, making the effort the eighth successful intercept out of the 13 tests conducted since 1999, with the last successful test taking place in September 2007.

Overall military chiefs approved of the effort.

"I am extremely pleased," said O'Reilly at a press briefing.

"All the systems were working together," he added, referring to the complex alignment of radars, sensors and timing to coordinate the high-octane missile.

Brian Green, deputy assistant secretary of defense for strategic capabilities, added that the effort was an "operationally realistic test."

The effectiveness of the defense shield has been questioned by some scientists who claim the program would be unable to distinguish between a missile and a decoy -- precisely what failed to be realized in Friday's effort.

The test is seen as a crucial step towards a controversial anti-missile shield Washington plans to base in Eastern Europe.

The Bush administration wants to install a radar facility in the Czech Republic and 10 interceptor missiles in neighboring Poland by 2014.

The test of the project, which so far has cost the Defense Department some 100 billion dollars, comes at a critical time before president-elect Barack Obama moves into the White House on January 20.

Obama has so far not committed to the missile defense shield.

One of his senior foreign policy advisors, Denis McDonough, has indicated however that Obama would support the program if the technology proves viable.

Moscow has repeatedly voiced strong objections to the shield plan, which Washington insists is not directed against Russia but at "rogue states" such as Iran and North Korea.

In late November Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin urged Obama to drop the planned shield in Eastern Europe.

"This project is aimed against the strategic potential of Russia. And we can only give it an adequate response," he said.

Earlier last month Moscow raised alarm in Western capitals by warning it could place missiles in the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad, close to Poland, in response to the plan.

On Friday the interceptor missile was launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, as the target -- a fake warhead mimicking long-range ballistic missiles from nations like North Korea -- was set off from the Alaskan island of Kodiak.

renukb · Post by **renukb** » 07 Dec 2008 10:46

Russia Allocates $2 Billion on New Arms, Countering U.S. Shield
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

By Henry Meyer

Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Russia will spend an extra $2 billion next year on weapons, including modernizing short-range Iskander missiles that could counter a proposed U.S. anti-missile shield.

The government decided to allocate an extra 60 billion rubles ($2.1 billion) after Russia’s August war with U.S.-allied Georgia, state broadcaster Vesti-24 cited Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov as saying on its Web Site.

“Irrespective of the economic situation, it will continue to rise,” Ivanov said of Russia’s defense spending. “There is an objective need to speed up further the rearmament of our army and navy.”

Russia, which faces a slowdown after a decade of oil-fueled economic growth, announced in September it would boost defense spending 26 percent to a post-Soviet record of 1.28 trillion rubles ($45.3 billion) next year. The increase was approved before the war with Georgia.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned last month he’ll put short-range Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad, a region wedged between Poland and Lithuania, to “neutralize” the planned missile-defense system.

Russian officials have said the deployment would be scrapped if Barack Obama’s new administration cancels outgoing U.S. President George W. Bush’s plans to install missile-defense facilities in Poland and the Czech Republic, former Soviet satellite states.

To contact the reporter on this story: Henry Meyer in Moscow at Hmeyer4@bloomberg.net

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 12 Dec 2008 19:01

India to test Layered Missile Defence
India is all set to test layered missile defence in December 2008. This test will involve 2 Ballastic Missile interceptors intercepting a single modified Prithvi Missile. The first interception will take place at an distance of 80 km altitude. The second interception will take place at the distance of 30 kms altitude. The 80 Km or exo-atmospheric intercepter is expected to hit the incoming missile and the 30 Km or the endo-atmospheric interceptor will try to destroy the largest surviving debris.

Indian has so far tested exo-atmospheric and endo-atmospheric interceptors in stand alone modes.

On 6th December 2007 DRDO carried out the 2nd launch of a Single Stage Interceptor Missile against an incoming ballistic missile target of enemy represented by a modified Prithivi Missile. The Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor (AAD) intercepted a modified Prithvi Missileat 15 km altitude. On 27 Nov 2006, exo atmospheric test, Prithvi Air Defence Exercise (PADE), intercepted a modified Prithvi-II Missile at an altitude of 50 km.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Dec 2008 20:01

What do they mean by hit the missile at 80 Km and then hit the remaining debri at 30 Km ? If the Hit is a success then there will be so many debris formed and probably it it disintegrate further till it travels down 50 km.

If only when they miss at 80 km then they will have a chance for a 2nd shot at 30 Km.

The other way will be they fire two target missile , kill one at 80 Km and 2nd at 30 Km .

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 12 Dec 2008 20:08

If only when they miss at 80 km then they will have a chance for a 2nd shot at 30 Km.

...30 Km or the endo-atmospheric interceptor will try to destroy the largest surviving debris...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Dec 2008 20:17

Raveen wrote:
If only when they miss at 80 km then they will have a chance for a 2nd shot at 30 Km.
...30 Km or the endo-atmospheric interceptor will try to destroy the largest surviving debris...

Sure but what if there are no largest surviving debris and just small few cm one scattered all over , have you ever heard some testing ABM in such a fashion ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Dec 2008 20:21

may be they want to make a realistic test and if the exo takes out the bogey first time then the endo is wasted.
unless endo is launched or not depending on the first intercept.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 12 Dec 2008 21:08

Much awaited news, extremely important in the current scenario, we need the shield up as soon as possible.
This is a layered defence, just in case exo misses the missile, the endo intercepts it, this kind of deployment would give very high probability of intercept.
Something similar in American ABM history (note that these are nuclear tipped ABMs not HTK like our program).
Spartan and sprint missiles

Nike X was a US system of two missiles, radars and their associated control systems. The original Nike Zeus (later called Spartan) was upgraded for longer range and a much larger 5 megatonne warhead intended to destroy warheads with a burst of x-rays outside the atmosphere. A second shorter-range missile called Sprint with very high acceleration was added to handle warheads that evaded longer-ranged Spartan. Sprint was a very fast missile (some sources claimed it accelerated to 8,000 mph (13 000 km/h) within 4 seconds of flight--an average acceleration of 100 g) and had a smaller W66 enhanced radiation warhead in the 1-3 kiloton range for in-atmosphere interceptions.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Dec 2008 21:32

that is another way to describe the mission, that which failed to hit at 80km, will get a chance to hit again at 30km. now, if there are no large debris located, then the mission ends, thus preserving(may be) the ABM to be used for 30km target.

multi-layer!

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 12 Dec 2008 22:17

what is the big worry about?

all they have to do is launch one target, intercept with PAD, destroy it

assume it is not destroyed, proceeding at same path as before/or different (depending on how complex they want test) and launch endo (Automated launch) which if it pass within certain distance of target path is considered success

this is same as done in astra remember missile was launched at simulated target and the test had several engagement in one test

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 12 Dec 2008 22:52

I think the biggest challenge is to identify the "largest surviving debris". Imagine in an interception which parts of a missile are likely to be intact. It would be the warhead (nuclear???).
This might also be an exercise to identify a warhead from decoys.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 12 Dec 2008 23:45

Kakarat wrote:India to test Layered Missile Defence
India is all set to test layered missile defence in December 2008. This test will involve 2 Ballastic Missile interceptors intercepting a single modified Prithvi Missile. The first interception will take place at an distance of 80 km altitude. The second interception will take place at the distance of 30 kms altitude. The 80 Km or exo-atmospheric intercepter is expected to hit the incoming missile and the 30 Km or the endo-atmospheric interceptor will try to destroy the largest surviving debris.

Indian has so far tested exo-atmospheric and endo-atmospheric interceptors in stand alone modes.

On 6th December 2007 DRDO carried out the 2nd launch of a Single Stage Interceptor Missile against an incoming ballistic missile target of enemy represented by a modified Prithivi Missile. The Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor (AAD) intercepted a modified Prithvi Missileat 15 km altitude. On 27 Nov 2006, exo atmospheric test, Prithvi Air Defence Exercise (PADE), intercepted a modified Prithvi-II Missile at an altitude of 50 km.

When exactly is this supposed to take place?

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 12 Dec 2008 23:52

vavinash wrote:
Kakarat wrote:India to test Layered Missile Defence
India is all set to test layered missile defence in December 2008. This test will involve 2 .
When exactly is this supposed to take place?

There is your answer Avinash , since we are almost into mid December - expect the news soon.

Mark Schwartzbard · Post by **Mark Schwartzbard** » 13 Dec 2008 03:37

MN Kumar wrote:I think the biggest challenge is to identify the "largest surviving debris". Imagine in an interception which parts of a missile are likely to be intact. It would be the warhead (nuclear???).
This might also be an exercise to identify a warhead from decoys.

Think of a scenerio, where your enemy would usecruise missiles, what would you use ? an endo or an exo-atmospheric missile to intercept.
Given that all countries are moving towards cruise control, which interceptor would you like in your backyard.?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Dec 2008 08:39

I think the way it will work is both PAD and AAD will be fired in quick time interval , much before PAD reaches the kill window.

If PAD hits the target great , AAD will just have to go by , if PAD misses it then AAD will try to do a HTK.

I was expecting an Agni type RV as target to simulate an IRBM class target ( ~ 3000 km or reentry velocity of 3.5 km/sec )

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 14 Dec 2008 02:55

If they really intend to hit the largest chunk of debris then this involves tremendous engineering capabilities - because the moment the inbound missile is in pieces they become ballistic on a completely different path, not to mention the spin imparted to them. Which means precise tracking all through and no generic "oh it should be in about this area at about this time" business. Awesome.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 14 Dec 2008 04:22

May be for the testing, the first PAD test would just track and relay how close the interceptor comes to the target and not actually explode or try and destroy the target. Even if it is possible, it is not sensible to keep track of the debris - the largest piece of debris may not be the warhead!

Prithvi doesn't have a pure ballistic path. It does re-orient during reentry and travels horizontal for a certain distance -to fool ABMs. The AAD may be tested against such a maneuver. Experts, please correct me if I am wrong.

nash · Post by **nash** » 01 Jan 2009 10:50

we suppose to test our ABM in December but there are no news about this .................
Anybody have any information about this..?

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 02 Jan 2009 11:27

http://imintandanalysis.googlepages.com ... erview.kmz
Google Earth Plugin to show known SAM sites from around the world

vipu · Post by **vipu** » 03 Jan 2009 15:57

Iran attempts to get S-300.
Conclusion:
The ultimate takeaway from Israel's negotiating with Moscow in October and its August 2008 claim that if such a system was delivered to Iran that Israel would be forced to develop a counter, is that Israel's efforts to defeat the S-300P series of SAM systems may not have been as succesful as once believed. Had Israeli efforts in exploiting Croatian and Greek systems been successful in developing adequate electronic warfare systems and countertactics, Israel would likely have sat by and watched the Iranian regime spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a missile system that they knew represented a limited threat. Given Israel's work in the field of electronic warfare it is possible that reports suggesting that the S-300P could be countered by new systems were a form of deception aimed at convincing Iranian leadership that the purchase of such a ssytem was a wasted effort. In that light, the potential for an eventual S-300P SAM sale to Iran may be the catalyst that finally pushes Israel into striking Iranian nuclear facilities. The Israeli military is rightfully very concerned over the potential of advanced S-300P series SAM systems taking up residence inside of Iran, and if political pressure on Moscow is not enough to prevent a transfer than military action may be the end result.

http://geimint.blogspot.com/2008/12/isr ... s-300.html

If 36D6 has EW Capability, is our layered ABM(LRTR/GreenPine) able to sustain the EW Threat?.

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 09 Jan 2009 04:06

India-US 'missile shield talks' (BBC)

India has been holding initial talks with the US over the possible purchase of a missile defence shield system, the UK's Financial Times has reported.

The talks have been going on for some time and the paper quoted the US embassy in Delhi as saying they were on a scientific and technical level.

The FT said Indian officials had been shown computer simulations and had attended live missile tests.

It quoted a US embassy official as saying: "India is a partner of ours, and we want to provide it with whatever it needs to protect itself. This fits into the overall strategic partnership we are building."

The paper said no decision had been made by Delhi on the purchase of foreign systems.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 09 Jan 2009 04:42

Rahul Shukla wrote:India-US 'missile shield talks' (BBC)

Here comes the anti-news for that...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... 3JOJvnq_Dg

Amit Singh · Post by **Amit Singh** » 09 Jan 2009 06:56

Instead of destroying the warhead, why not bag it and bring it back home?

or calculate the trajectory and relaunch it on the opposite path it was taking when it got bagged by the ABM?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jan 2009 08:58

PAC -3 eh!?.. sounds good against pakis.. but china centric ones, should be left to DRDO!

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 09 Jan 2009 09:11

Amit Singh wrote:Instead of destroying the warhead, why not bag it and bring it back home?

or calculate the trajectory and relaunch it on the opposite path it was taking when it got bagged by the ABM?

Nice joke..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jan 2009 09:23

KiranM wrote:
Amit Singh wrote:Instead of destroying the warhead, why not bag it and bring it back home?

or calculate the trajectory and relaunch it on the opposite path it was taking when it got bagged by the ABM?
Nice joke..

sounds like dream / prayer wishes to hanuman ji.

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 09 Jan 2009 11:01

time for my "expert" analysis:

- it is a good thing to field the star-wars shield on indian soil

- it is not just aimed against paki missiles, but most imporatantly chinese missiles (that is why china's pet pig pakistan already started complaining "we will have to take counter-measures" said pakistani pig to this news)

- it will be a good system to compare with our own efforts in terms of packaging, ranging, mobility, user-interface, etc

- indian specialists were invited to the alaska anti-missile test so it seems the relations are quiet warm and ruski dictators will think twice about blackmailing india on defense purchases (like they did on gorshkov deal)

- for all practical purposes, the system will never be used because india's non-aggressive passive lenient na-mard posture on foreign affairs (so it is good to have the system for all of the above reasons which have nothing to do with actually shooting down a foreign mijjile from the western neighbor)

Definition: foreign missile from western neighbor = chinese missile painted in shitty green paint with moon logo stuck with double sticky tape - preferrably showing chandrayan-1 circling the paki moon

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 09 Jan 2009 11:57

for all practical purposes, the system will never be used because india's non-aggressive passive lenient na-mard posture on foreign affairs

Certainly it will be used and it gives us a massive upper hand in any war with TSP or even China , since India has a no first use policy on nukes and TSP decides to launch one - even ting and destroying it will have TSP wetting their pants as that can be construed by India as a first use and an excuse to launch a counter.

They will think 1000 times more before launching a missile if we have an effective ABM deployed , I personally just cannot wait for phase 1 to be completed.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 09 Jan 2009 13:12

ABM might not work well for Indo-Pak scenarios where the targets for Pakistan are likely to be Punjab, Gujrat border states. The flying time of a M-11/Hatf-1 would be a few minutes, not enough to detect incoming missile, authorize retaliation , and then fly to intercept.
Secondly, ABMs can be overwhelmed by multiple missile launches especially for short-range scenarios like the above.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 09 Jan 2009 15:38

The BDM's and copy paste DDM's

(B for British and D for Desi.)
Pentagon denies missile defense sales talks with India
Link

WASHINGTON (AFP) — The Pentagon has had longstanding contacts with India on missile defense issues but is not in talks to sell it missile defense systems, a defense spokesman said.

"The United States and India currently are not discussing the sale of any US missile defense systems to India," said Lieutenant Colonel Stewart Upton.

The Financial Times, citing US embassy officials in New Delhi, said the United States was in preliminary talks about sales of US missile shield systems to guard New Delhi against nuclear threats.

A US defense official described the interaction with the Indians as being on "a very rudimentary level."

"We have invited them to observe two tests this year to facilitate discussions of the two countries' ballistic missile defense test programs," the official said.

But the official said the invitation was extended with the understanding that it did not signal "US intention or willingness to sell the systems involved."

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 09 Jan 2009 15:44

What about the December test promised by DRDO. Seems the green light for the test has not been given by the Govt.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 09 Jan 2009 18:08

Amit Singh wrote:Instead of destroying the warhead, why not bag it and bring it back home?

or calculate the trajectory and relaunch it on the opposite path it was taking when it got bagged by the ABM?

We can attach some anti-grav units and do a site-to-site transport of the missile to our cargo bay - like in star trek! Friend, your idea is a couple of centuries ahead...

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 09 Jan 2009 18:15

uddu wrote:What about the December test promised by DRDO. Seems the green light for the test has not been given by the Govt.

The report in TOI today on missile defense quoted an official saying that "within a month" the layered test would be conducted and computer simulations were on going as of this moment.

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 09 Jan 2009 18:28

Nice idea.....i would be interested in EW which mods the embedded flight path instructions of the onboard processor and sends to missile back to paki land....!!!

Misguided Missile with mid path correction...!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jan 2009 20:39

nikhil_t wrote:ABM might not work well for Indo-Pak scenarios where the targets for Pakistan are likely to be Punjab, Gujrat border states. The flying time of a M-11/Hatf-1 would be a few minutes, not enough to detect incoming missile, authorize retaliation , and then fly to intercept.
Secondly, ABMs can be overwhelmed by multiple missile launches especially for short-range scenarios like the above.

As long as we can destroy it.. and hopefully its not nuke (and does not start the chain reaction) to be blowing radiation for miles. Pakistan specific ABMs can be developed and deployed.. for pakis, the most important aspect is to have a separate dedicated satellite and border stationed long range radar systems, that detects the launches ASAP!! the faster the better. rest is tracking and killing.

space based laser kill vehicle (space crafts/sattelites) are another options.. but that would invite troubles if done overtly.. we need a covert (like USA/Russia) space assets to destroy the ballistics in the mid course itself.

We only hope pakis don't send cruise nukes.. that would be dangerous to both pakis and our border walas where the destruction would be detrimental to both the nations.

Yogesh · Post by **Yogesh** » 10 Jan 2009 00:14

Kailash wrote:
Amit Singh wrote:Instead of destroying the warhead, why not bag it and bring it back home?

or calculate the trajectory and relaunch it on the opposite path it was taking when it got bagged by the ABM?

We can attach some anti-grav units and do a site-to-site transport of the missile to our cargo bay - like in star trek! Friend, your idea is a couple of centuries ahead...

well it might look funny for time being but not an absurd idea as a whole.. can any one of us imagine how many ppl at the beginning of the 20th century were thinking about even a rocket

.....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Jan 2009 00:19

if its a ballistic, its stupidity to bring it back to earth!.. just detonate it in the space.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 10 Jan 2009 00:53

Allright! Now we talking. I see a need.... a need for tractor beams on the planned Chandrayaan5 moonbase for bagging and tagging the warheads. If the midichlorian count of our jedis flying HSDTVs doesnt work, we always have a fallback option of yanking 'em rusty warheads out of earth and detonating it safely underwater in the Sea of Serenity.

SShah · Post by **SShah** » 10 Jan 2009 00:57

We need a layered ABM/AA system in place. Merely using our own ABM system or using merely the imported system (PAC3, Arrow, S400) won't work. These system should work coherently and in conjunction with other systems. These systems have different ranges and their purpose and weaknesses also vary. If they're deployed in a 3 to 4 tier formation, chances of surviving a BM or CM strikes (number of BMs, aircraft and even CMs attacking simultaneously) are really very high.