Indian Non-response to Terrorism after Mumbai

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 18 Jan 2009 03:09

More.

Comment: David Miliband's argument is flawed
by
Richard Beeston

David Miliband showed bad judgment and poor taste when he chose the Taj hotel in Mumbai to take a last swipe at George Bush in the dying days of his presidency.

With the blood barely dry on the reception walls, the Foreign Secretary made his stand against Mr Bush in the city’s most famous landmark and memorial site to the 164 dead from November’s terrorist attack.

The shortcomings of Mr Miliband’s arguments are largely beside the point. The Taj hotel in Mumbai is a place where visiting foreign leaders should pay respect to the dead and praise the courage of those who defied the terrorists.

Mr Miliband appears to have followed the advice of one of Mr Bush’s predecessors in the White House, who was fond of saying that you should never hit a man when he was down but kick him because it saved bending over.

Instead, the Foreign Secretary should have acted some time during the past seven years when his words would have mattered, not on the eve of Mr Obama’s inauguration and not in Mumbai.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 18 Jan 2009 03:09

John Snow wrote:All PAD Agni, mutual deterence 50 to 150 Kt variable yield is no good unless the other guy is rational to understand the consequences.

Jaan, you may want to revisit the above. The other guys are dead rational. It is Indian leadership that is smoking hashish.

When actually threatened, they quickly back down. When confronted they have lost, every time. Imagine what will happen, when Indian leadership actually becomes rational and provides a rational response to terror.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 18 Jan 2009 03:45

A "rational response to terror" is to become terrified and go hide, and the GOI has most certainly done that, and tried to do that to the entire nation, as much as the nation tries to be brave. It is true that the Pakistanis have always run when confronted, but this time GOI has outrun them to shelter.

So I don't see why u r faulting the GOI for not being "rational". Just pointing out.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 18 Jan 2009 04:53

http://www.rediff.com/news/2009/jan/17m ... 0-days.htm

Pakistan on Saturday said that the evidence about Mumbai terror attacks [Images] -- given to it by India -- contained 'leads and good clues' and promised to file criminal cases if prima facie evidence is found.

'Quite a lot of material' was provided by India and the Pakistani investigators will work to convert this into 'evidence that can stand up to judicial scrutiny', Pakistan's Interior Ministry chief Rahman Malik told a press conference in Islamabad [Images] on Saturday.

He said the three-member counter-terror team, investigating the Mumbai attack and examining the Indian dossier, has been directed to submit its preliminary findings within 10 days.

10 - dus is Universal Baki constant.
10 days for baki response.
10 mins for baki mijjile respone.
10 Yr old gets trained by ISI for jihad.
10 Yr old fit for nuptials for senior mullahs.
10 % is the president.
1baki = 10 SDRE mard.
10 is very charming baki number similar to number 2 which is very evil as proven elsewhere by Witzel's student
(http://www.sabha.info/docs/misc/aif/Pg314.html).

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Jan 2009 05:13

Now this: Dalai Lama calls for violent response to terrorism. GOI sends flowers to Lashkar-e-Toiba

Those like MKG or Dalai Lama, who have tried to be non-violent for most of their life, usually know what suppressing violence within themselves means, and sometimes get tired towards the end. Those who never had any violence in them at all, have no need to get tired of suppressing violence in themselves at all.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 18 Jan 2009 07:31

Indian Army did not oppose attack: chief

NEW DELHI: The Indian Army on Saturday said it was fully prepared to execute any task entrusted by the nation and dismissed reports that it had opposed a military strike against Pakistan following the Mumbai terror attacks citing ill-preparedness.

“I think you can bank upon an army, which is prepared for the tasks given to it by the nation and the leadership,” Indian Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told reporters.

Reacting to reports of the army differing with the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the navy on going in for a military strike against terror camps inside Pakistani territory, Gen Kapoor said, “I do not know from where you (media) got those reports of the army not being prepared.”

The reports had suggested that the army faced a shortage of equipment, and had thus opposed attacking Pakistani targets. online

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 18 Jan 2009 08:40

jrjrao wrote:More.

Comment: David Miliband's argument is flawed
by
Richard Beeston
David Miliband showed bad judgment and poor taste when he chose the Taj hotel in Mumbai to take a last swipe at George Bush in the dying days of his presidency.

I know Richard bhai, you are more sensitive to your cousin Bush across the pond, but Miliband insulted India more than anybody else by invoking Kashmir to explain away the wanton slaughter of Indians by your terrorist all-lie TSP.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Jan 2009 10:11

ShauryaT wrote:
John Snow wrote:All PAD Agni, mutual deterence 50 to 150 Kt variable yield is no good

coming to think off the weapons.. its better our high end h bombs and neut bombs and yadi yadi is all kept under secrecy from babooze.. perhaps even the subcritical test facilities and labs. they would in no way understand.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 18 Jan 2009 10:48

Dont know if some one has posted this already:

Explaining away terror : hindustan Times

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... way+terror

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 18 Jan 2009 11:15

where is the NSA chief? Hope not that he is still busy doing BP in Rajmata's house hold?

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jan 2009 14:21

From what I learned, GOI did not even inquire with the US about possbility of limited strikes. In fact, US feared that Cold Start will be activated but some US observers were surprised that GoI did not even seriously pursue the military threat in the beginning.

I'm sure that any sane govt anywhere would have been stunned by the absolute undisguised cowardice of a country which claims to be a "aspiring " superpower but runs crying to Amrika unkil every time bad bully next door utters a sentence. I would have understood our behavior/course of action if this was the 60s with Pak having the superiority in all fields over us but the actions taken post 26/11 do not portray the picture of the victim being 10x stronger in all respects than the attacker!!!!

Our image in the eyes of the world is in ruins and will take a looong time to repair. No one can be faulted for taking us as a nation of pu$$ies...

MohanG · Post by **MohanG** » 18 Jan 2009 15:43

Cross-Posted:

Was the army ready for war?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 18 Jan 2009 15:44

INDIA’S FOREIGN POLICIES ON PAKISTAN REACH A DEAD-END by Dr. Subhash Kapila

The following non-military options, if implemented immediately could be perceived as hard-line options to foreclose any further state-sponsored terrorism from Pakistan in the wake of Mumbai 9/11.

* Break diplomatic relations with Pakistan.
* Abrogate the Havana Agreement
* Declare Pakistan as a “terrorist state” and the ISI as a “terrorist organization.”
* Snap all CBM’s implemented on Kashmir from cross-border travel to trade etc.
* Review Indus Waters Treaty and stop flow of river waters to Pakistan
* Snap all Pak transit overflights
* Stop train and air services to Pakistan.
* Peace Process and Composite Dialogue to be called off.
* Black-list all countries selling defense equipment to Pakistan and not invite them to tender for Indian military purchases.
* Resume ‘covert operations’ against Pakistan with focus on Pakistan’s military establishment and terrorist organization.
* India should give political, moral and material support to the “freedom fighters” in Baluchistan, Northern Areas and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
* Isolate Pakistan in South Asia by disbanding SAARC and focus on alternative regional organizations excluding Pakistan.
* Psychological warfare, visibly exposing Pakistan Army’s and ISI disruptive activities in neighbouring countries. “Radio Free Pakistan” and TV channels be established. The emphasis in this campaign should be that India and Indians are not against the Pakistani people and that India is definitely against the Pakistan Army establishment, the ISI and their affiliated terrorist organisations indulging in unrestrained “War of Terror” against India, Afghanistan and in Pakistan’s frontier areas.
* Establish a maritime ‘cordon sanitairre’ in the North Arabian Sea excluding all trade by dhows and fishing trawlers traffic.
* No tourists from Pakistan or foreigners transiting through Pakistan be given entry to India.
* India should not pursue the Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline project both in the present context and otherwise too.

In the execution of the above measures, India should not become amendable to any external pressures. Should Pakistan consequently ratchet on the above, the military confrontation along the LOC or the other borders, India should prepare itself for war.

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jan 2009 15:55

This was confirmed by a well-connected retired general who said, “The 400-odd Bofors guns we bought in the 1980s are falling apart for want of spares, the (600-odd) Shilka anti-aircraft cannon are in desperate need of upgradation. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.” He added that India’s numerically vast tank fleet is in poor shape, and it did not have any mobile artillery to speak of. The government’s mantra in all this has been that “all options are open.”

All courtesy our netas and babus...
Sad that its the IA which has become the weakest link!!!

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 18 Jan 2009 20:37

No faulting the army. At the end of the day, the buck stops at the civilian control. Namely the GOI and babus. Well, NSA is just an adviser and does not have other responsibility

. There is serious lack of credibility with respect to responsibility and ownership for the turf.

Does it require kasaba type piglet to reveal that armory is defunct and in shortage. "Na kupakanna pradipthae honina Gruhae" (No point digging well, when the house is on fire).
Well, one can see when in democracy one gets to do the "selection by Elephant garland for the prime post".

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 18 Jan 2009 21:10

sum,

In my view, it is not entirely bad that this ridiculous pretense of India as some sort of growing power, leave alone "superpower"

, has been blown to bits with Mumbai. When your real aukaat has been shown and your torn pant is exposed, you have no choice but to fight the necesssary fight to be the big boss of your slum.

Win the slum first, before you decide to move into the posh neighborhoods.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 18 Jan 2009 21:47

While Manoj Joshi quotes #s that appear credible, a note of caution. This guy has consistently been mocking India's ability to take on TSP. Also, the guy wrote a book way back that Kashmir insurgency is over. The rise of LeT & Kargil, and the fact that even today, the cocky APHC and their TSP masters can disrupt the peace at will shows how wrong he was.

My common sense bench mark is simple. If TSP is as powerful as Joshi claims, they would have attacked across the LoC by now and made an attempt to capture Srinagar. That they can only send brain washed suicidal pigs tells you that they are a bunch of cowards.

Bottom line. I completely agree that India cannot possibly do a USA on Iraq or something like that, but India ought to use its considerable diplomatic/militray muscle to inflict sufficient pain on TSP to desist it from using terror as an instrument of state policy. A statement that it makes both to TSP and their western handlers, that the core issue, first and foremost, between India and TSP is terror and terror alone. Once terror is dismantled and is off the table, and India deems it so, then chai biskoot sessions, cultural exchanges, love making between Bharka & Mahesh Butt types and their Paki lovers etc can take place. Thus, its a failure of political will first & foremost. People respond to leadership.

Please see the views of this TSP RAPE, ambassador Lodhi, bereft of any guilt or shame over the Mumbai slaughte by her compatriots, instead is more concerned, and correctly so, that India is trying to make terror the center piece of relations between India & TSP. Diplomacy is alone not enough, India needs to add military muscle. And with such a huge arsenal at its disposal, if India can't even do that, then to add to what R-man said, I say the idea of India is bloody lie

http://www.thenews.com.pk/editorial_det ... ?id=157477

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jan 2009 21:54

Rangudu wrote:sum,

In my view, it is not entirely bad that this ridiculous pretense of India as some sort of growing power, leave alone "superpower" , has been blown to bits with Mumbai. When your real aukaat has been shown and your torn pant is exposed, you have no choice but to fight the necesssary fight to be the big boss of your slum.

Win the slum first, before you decide to move into the posh neighborhoods.

Certainly....maybe there is a silver lining to this slap on our face.

There is no doubt that this attack has also raised the awareness levels of our aam janta about the evil neighbourhood we are in much,much more than in the past.When push does come to shove( hopefully in this century!!

), don't expect the people of India to petition for peace(except for few WKKs) when an all out effort to smash the enemy occurs. All this public humiliation(many more will come before we act) will take away whatever little sympathy the people of India have for the enemy.

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 Jan 2009 21:57

Muslim clerics issue fatwa against Israeli goods

LUCKNOW: Muslim clerics here have issued a fatwa asking members of the community not to use goods manufactured by Israel in the wake of its offensive in Gaza, which has left over 1,200 Palestinians dead.

"As Palestinian Muslims are being killed by Israel, it is our duty to boycott goods manufactured by the country to make it financially weak," the fatwa issued by the Islamic Centre of India stated.

The fatwa was passed after one Majid Jilani sought the direction of Naib Imam Maulana Khalid Rahseed Firangi Mahli on whether transacting with a country, which was killing Muslims and had illegally occupied Masjid-e-Aqsa and Baitul Muqaddas, was justified or not.

Jilani had asked about the duty of a Muslim as per the Shariah law in a situation where the revenue generated by a country was being used against the interest of the Muslim community.

Issuing the fatwa, Firangi Mahli, who is also the general secretary of ICI, said all Muslims were brothers under Islam.

"They are part of one body. If one part is injured, entire body feels the pain," he added.
The fatwa stated that if any Muslim was not pained by the sufferings of his brethren, his 'imaan' would be under doubt.

"Boycotting Israel economically is compulsory from the religion, faith and even the human point of view," the fatwa stated.

So, does the bolded part at the bottom mean that if Pakis experience pain due to India, IMs should feel it too?

Funnily, don't remember any fatwa against boycotting Pak/Paki goods afetr 26/11?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 18 Jan 2009 22:42

All I can say is what manoj joshi says is 90% correct.

Since 1999 I have been saying IA is the weakest link especially its leadership and RR was also saying the same, but was gone from forum for different reasons I am told.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 18 Jan 2009 23:15

India faces threat of another 26/11: US study

The report acknowledged that both India and Pakistan have nuclear weapons, making any military action a "dangerous course", but warned that if India does not respond, that "would signal a lack of Indian resolve or capability."

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 18 Jan 2009 23:49

Take the war to the enemy

Declining Military Prowess

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 19 Jan 2009 04:37

Saudi spy chief in India to discuss Mumbai attacks

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jan 2009 06:41

sum wrote:
Muslim clerics issue fatwa against Israeli goods

Someone please show me one Indian fatwa against Pakistani goods.

But why should I blame Muslim clerics when India netas do not see Pakistan as a a problem. "Joint terror mechanism" and "peace process" etc is such a load of egregious bulldung that it shocks me to think that we have been forced to eat this kind of India government sponsored crap until 2008.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 19 Jan 2009 07:31

Stratfor

Mitigating Mumbai
January 14, 2009 | 1852 GMT

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 19 Jan 2009 07:35

Under our PM MMS The MOD and DM might obey the fatwa for all we know..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jan 2009 07:50

John Snow wrote:All I can say is what manoj joshi says is 90% correct.

Since 1999 I have been saying IA is the weakest link especially its leadership and RR was also saying the same, but was gone from forum for different reasons I am told.

Umaroa jaan, Have you considered that MMS is blaming the IA as he can get away with it.

Sit down have a couple of pegs(or beer) and think it over. Has the IA failed the nation ever?

And Rangudu stop associating with losers who feed you crap.

What has been exposed is the inpettiude of ths cabinet and not that of India.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 19 Jan 2009 08:19

Actually what has happened is that TSP faces a deep problem: the "war of a thousand cuts" has brought TSP to the point where another attack, and the whole world is likely to come down on TSP's heads.

So it is Final Reckoning Time for Pakistan and its terror enterprise. The MMS GOI is out of options: another terror attack and they will have to resign, or hit the TSP hard. They know that a limited strike on terror camps is not going to be allowed retaliation-free, so the GOI has to turn the IAF loose to neutralize the Paki Air Defense and Interceptor systems.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 19 Jan 2009 08:52

ramana wrote: And Rangudu stop associating with losers who feed you crap.

Boss, not to butt in, but what exactly did R-man say that you construe as looser talk?

. Most of R-man's predictions are accurate; his best one being the ferocious terror attacks by TSP in the aftermath of India signing the nuke deal.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Jan 2009 09:53

Ramana-guru/SSridhar/Paki affairs gurus,

Though the inaction of our GoI has been very frustrating, what in your opinion have we done right and what have we not done right since 26/11?
Do you concur with the GoI stance that no military strikes should ever be conducted since they are counter-productive or do you feel that our anger should be made clear with a few token strikes( of course, this is a question of the past since the window has long gone)?

Nirantar · Post by **Nirantar** » 19 Jan 2009 09:57

I dont know why the war hysteria and passing the bucks on army. Have their army attacked us? A full fledged war threat / response is like ranting and making fool of ourselves when Pak Army says....come on and head on - we are ready. A war at this time will be blunder and will unite aira-gairas in pak like never before. We are not Israel and they are not Palestine.

Why dont simple things come in the thick heads of our dip circles, iron is hot....just hit. Where is RAW?
1. Fuel Shia-sunni divide with everything;
2. Help Baluchi brothers;
3. Jiyo-Sindh people want to see a separate state;
4. Altaf bhai jindabad;
5. Rather than Afghan, collude with Iran and set-up bases over their. Baluchis will be happier than ever. Encircle Pakis from 3 directions;
6. Dry their fields by building more dams in J&K and let them attack first with our punitive response to follow. Dismantle camps at that time. Squeeze their balls by economic measures. When Bakis fight for Roti-Kapda-Makan, that is our real fight. Chaos on the streets of Pakis is our win.
7. For each blasts in India, trigger 10-20 blasts there.

-p

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Jan 2009 10:43

Let us agree, for argument's sake, that Joshi is right.

Does Pakistan's economy have the wherewithal to sustain a war?

I wonder if the US pressure alone shut Kiyani and others. Maybe the reality that, if the war is prolonged (in the Indo Pak context), Pakistan would not only be defeated badly, but would become international breadbasket case!

One wonders.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 19 Jan 2009 11:42

I think the current opinion is in favour of strong covert operations rather than a full scale war, dear mods why not do a poll on this : 'what would be the best way out to fight Pak?'

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 19 Jan 2009 11:59

RayC wrote:Does Pakistan's economy have the wherewithal to sustain a war?

What is the Paki economy?
Wasn't Pak supplied free oil by Saudis during Kargil? Didn't the Chinese bail them out with military equipment?

Isn't Paki economy a sum total of other helping hands too which will continue despite a war?

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 19 Jan 2009 12:56

quoting link from 'Casting doubt on Indian nuclear weapon designs and yields' thread
Jeremiah News Conference - CIA

Q: when the US had confronted India in the past with evidence that it is prepared to conduct nuclear tests, did that, in fact, give them an edge in terms of giving some insights about how to better defeat US efforts to monitor what is going on there.
A: I think that whenever there is an opportunity to look at what someone else is looking at in your territory it gives you some insights into what you would want to do to cover that

TSP having learnt from the Indian dossier will be better prepared the next time. Next time there possibly will be no links to pakistan.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Jan 2009 13:50

The footprints, intercepts were meant to be seen by the whole world(Why else would a group of pigs bring over ALL their items made in pak when their hundreds of contacts in india could have got them Indian grocieries if their intent was to hide their Pakiness).
They were a means to tell India: see, we have commited this act against you with our fingerprints all over the place. So, what can you do now? The same was done in the Kabul bombing case also.

Maybe, it is a way to expose India's weakness in dealing with Pak and showing India its rightful place (acc to Pak) despite all the talk of military superiority

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Jan 2009 13:55

IndraD wrote:I think the current opinion is in favour of strong covert operations rather than a full scale war, dear mods why not do a poll on this : 'what would be the best way out to fight Pak?'

you can start one if you think so, keeping within the normal boundaries.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Jan 2009 15:25

AdityaM wrote:TSP having learnt from the Indian dossier will be better prepared the next time. Next time there possibly will be no links to pakistan.

In fact, one reason why there shouldn't be any joint investigation (and precisely why TSP demands that) is what you mentioned above. The joint terror mechanism was a foolish idea from the start. It would have worked with any other country, but TSP.

However, I do believe there is no such thing as a 'perfect murder'. Clues will be left behind. In the case of Kabul Embassy attack and the Mumbai attack, the ISI perhaps wanted to leave clues behind.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 19 Jan 2009 17:07

No one seems to have explored the other reason:

Maybe the Kabul blast and Mumbai attack were conducted precisely to see what kinds of "warnings" and "evidence" came out, in order to clean out their own "security" in the terrorist enterprise. So that when the REAL THING is planned there won't be such leaks.

All the more reason to hit them hard and destroy their HQ and chain of command while it is still possible. The Indian and American governments seems to operate on the assumption that "we" will be final victors regardless of our stupidity and laziness. The Pakis OTOH assume that THEY will be the victors.

Evidence suggests that they are winning, so far. Look at Afghanistan, look at the sad situation of the Indian nation, look at J&K, Assam, Nepal, Orissa, Andhra, West Bengal, Tripura, Manipur, Nagaland, Mizoram. The Pakis are winning.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 19 Jan 2009 17:33

narayanan wrote:Look at Afghanistan, look at the sad situation of the Indian nation, look at J&K, Assam, Nepal, Orissa, Andhra, West Bengal, Tripura, Manipur, Nagaland, Mizoram. The Pakis are winning.

Sad, that all it has taken is a mere one month and already our attitudes have changed.
From chest thumping to deflated egos.
This is a classical example of what havoc poor leadership can wreck on the nation!
May go bless India & may zeus strike a lightening blow at our current govt.