Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 17 Jan 2009 13:07

That is a strange piece of news.
I thought K-8s were being manufactured in Pak by PAF Kamra! What gives?

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 17 Jan 2009 13:10

^^^
This is i think the main reason for the handover being stealthy.Every one till now thought they were manufactured in pakistan..

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 17 Jan 2009 13:22

Pakistan thanks Germany for the submarines
http://www.france24.com/en/20090117-lar ... n-embassy-

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show ... istan.html

German parliament backs submarine sale to Pakistan

Berlin - Germany's parliament rejected Thursday an attempt to stop the sale of three submarines to Pakistan, with pro-government speakers defending the sale. Last year, the transaction was approved in the first phase of Berlin's review of the sale by the German warship-building consortium.

Germany's opposition Greens party asked parliament Thursday to intervene, but the large government majority rejected the motion. However several speakers in government parties voiced some misgivings at the sale.

Rolf Hempelmann of the Social Democrats, a party in Chancellor Angela Merkel's government, called for a "fresh review of the security situation in the region" before the government gave its final blessing for the sale.

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Jan 2009 13:53

So much for Indian pressure at stopping Paki defence acquisition...Unsure if even a single country can be persuaded given the weak pressure being applied.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 17 Jan 2009 14:10

sum wrote:So much for Indian pressure at stopping Paki defence acquisition...Unsure if even a single country can be persuaded given the weak pressure being applied.

Did you check the link?
Click Here

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Jan 2009 14:32

Avinash R wrote:
sum wrote:So much for Indian pressure at stopping Paki defence acquisition...Unsure if even a single country can be persuaded given the weak pressure being applied.
Did you check the link?
Click Here

How is that related to Indian pressure and arms sales to Pak?
Are you implying that India got this done to give a message to the Germans?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 17 Jan 2009 14:51

sum wrote:Are you implying that India got this done to give a message to the Germans?

No.

Pakistan bites the hand that feeds it. We have seen this behaviour every single time any country tried to help it or be friendly with it. Take the case america, it helps pakistan economically and give it's military aid but pakistan 'rewards' it with more bomb blasts against americans in afghanistan and by allowing terrorists to find safe sanctuary on it's soil. The terror training camps in pakistan have only increased after this aid. No sign of any decrease in violence.

Take the case of China, pakistan's sweeeter than honey friend. It provides pakistan with missiles and nuke tech. Pakistan rewards it with terror attacks in xinjiang and by hosting terror groups working against china on it's soil.

India started the peace process and normalised ties with pakistan. The 'reward' was more terror
attacks against india and indian targets, even the kabul embassy was attacked by the isi.

So now it's the turn of germany to get the reward from pakistan for helping it with submarines.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 18 Jan 2009 11:20

what's with the PAF chiefs constantly referring to the J-10 as a 5th gen aircraft?

another instance of that in this highly intellectually vacuous trash article...

http://pakobserver.net/200901/11/Articles03.asp

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 18 Jan 2009 11:37

Yogi_G wrote:what's with the PAF chiefs constantly referring to the J-10 as a 5th gen aircraft? another instance of that in this highly intellectually vacuous trash article...

http://pakobserver.net/200901/11/Articles03.asp

The Air Marshal is totally ignorant about some stuff. Claims:
*India's forex reserves are over $100 bn-->As of Jan 9th, they are much much more - $255 billion.
*India's GDP growth is in double digits?? Its high 7-8 p.c , never been double digits in recent past
*

During the recent air space violation, the IAF intruders were in the sights of PAF’s F-16’s, but were allowed to escape unscathed to avoid a major diplomatic crisis.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 19 Jan 2009 13:29

sum wrote:So much for Indian pressure at stopping Paki defence acquisition...Unsure if even a single country can be persuaded given the weak pressure being applied.

I see lot of things to be optimistic about.
1) A defence acquisition of PN had to be approved by the parliament, and not the usual deal going through smoothly.
2) There were enough opponents to introduce this into parliamentary debate
3) There were people in the main party too who opposed it.
Now all it needs is bit of encouragement and persuasion, and the next deal will be quashed.

So Germany is the first European country to debate a militray sale to Pakistan. This would make other deals coming into question look normal, and we would be able to persuade some country to quash a deal.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 19 Jan 2009 15:39

Yogi_G wrote:what's with the PAF chiefs constantly referring to the J-10 as a 5th gen aircraft? another instance of that in this highly intellectually vacuous trash article...

http://pakobserver.net/200901/11/Articles03.asp

Also the narrator is using the term russian rather sarcastically . i guess he must be aware that JF -17 blunder fly's with russian engine too

but accquistions of HDW subs is a valiant aggressive move by PN . There are really giving there underwater arm a huge boost and we are not .. still waiting for RFP of second line ofcoastal subs .

They also put HDW out of contention now . Only options availabe now seem to be Amur or scorpene

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 19 Jan 2009 19:25

Avinash R wrote:Pakistan thanks Germany for the submarines
http://www.france24.com/en/20090117-lar ... n-embassy-

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show ... istan.html

German parliament backs submarine sale to Pakistan

Berlin - Germany's parliament rejected Thursday an attempt to stop the sale of three submarines to Pakistan, with pro-government speakers defending the sale. Last year, the transaction was approved in the first phase of Berlin's review of the sale by the German warship-building consortium.

Germany's opposition Greens party asked parliament Thursday to intervene, but the large government majority rejected the motion. However several speakers in government parties voiced some misgivings at the sale.

Rolf Hempelmann of the Social Democrats, a party in Chancellor Angela Merkel's government, called for a "fresh review of the security situation in the region" before the government gave its final blessing for the sale.

We can thank Germans by banning all the German companies from Indian defense deals. Oh yes, needless to say, the free trade files taking longer to get cleared from Finance ministry.

mikoyan · Post by **mikoyan** » 19 Jan 2009 19:28

I dont agree that it puts HDW out of contention. But at the rate the TSP's are going they will impact our choices for both the subs (more expensive and better versions) and vendors.

And seeing the shocker on defence preparedness http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/83067/full ... ready.html I'd say its high time the whizkids in charge of procurement got their backsides moving to close the sub deal with whichever vendor.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 19 Jan 2009 19:36

parshuram wrote:
Yogi_G wrote:what's with the PAF chiefs constantly referring to the J-10 as a 5th gen aircraft? another instance of that in this highly intellectually vacuous trash article...

http://pakobserver.net/200901/11/Articles03.asp

Also the narrator is using the term russian rather sarcastically . i guess he must be aware that JF -17 blunder fly's with russian engine too

but accquistions of HDW subs is a valiant aggressive move by PN . There are really giving there underwater arm a huge boost and we are not .. still waiting for RFP of second line ofcoastal subs .

They also put HDW out of contention now . Only options availabe now seem to be Amur or scorpene

Not to mention that the Thunder is based on the Mig-33 design ...

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 19 Jan 2009 19:48

mikoyan wrote:I dont agree that it puts HDW out of contention. But at the rate the TSP's are going they will impact our choices for both the subs (more expensive and better versions) and vendors.

but would having better, more silent submarine than pakistan impact our Submarine hunting or ASW ops against PN Subs that much?

I am not sure if SSK is the best platform to hunt another SSK.

shouldn't TSPs purchase effect our choice of ASW Sensors, weapons and platforms like P-8 , the ASW Corvette, P-17A/P-15A ASW package, ASW Helicopters etc.

Also we should try and steal the secrets of U-214, probably by asking HDW to provide a much better cuztomzied Submarine for India and get info on U-214. we can probably sacrifice fair selection of SSKs in order to get vital info on Pak Subs. In any case our SSKs are not going to play more important role compared our surface warships, carriers or maritime aircraft considering the limitations on speed and endurance even with AIP.

nuclear submarines are suited perfectly for IN type navies, they would also be much better platform for Anti-Ship, carrier escort, land attack and even ASW.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 19 Jan 2009 20:15

Yogi dude, it actually doesn't matter how they get the stuff (i.e. by hook or crook). Matter of fact is they have it, and can use some of that technology to manufacture more weapons.

They quite cleverly exploited the gaps in Indian procurement policy. They milked South Africa (Denel), Germans, French, Chinese, Russians, and Americans whenever Indian failed to do so.

Also their purchase of German HDW is more of a strategic one then military. They bought these subs at astronomical price only to deny India access to these subs. Now since porkies have it, India will never buy it.

Although Indians are not that "besharam" like porkies and chinks, it should still pursue constant military upgrades thought proper channel/R&D and push porkies to wall in this weapon race.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 19 Jan 2009 20:40

Also their purchase of German HDW is more of a strategic one then military. They bought these subs at astronomical price only to deny India access to these subs. Now since porkies have it, India will never buy it.

well i think HDW would be already planning a more modern U-216 or something like that, just like france sold agostha to TSP and Scorpene to india. HDW might just say it will modify U-214 in which ever way India wants.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 19 Jan 2009 21:15

Did anyone watch Raggeh Omar of Al Jazeera give his report on the Paki offensive in the Bajour agency? Really worth watching (all 4 parts, abt 10 min each)

Pakistan's War: On the Front Line

Part 1 http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=kQB-IgktV ... re=channel
Part 2 http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=u43ngbDH6 ... re=channel
Part 3 http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=2WmQTxwXr ... re=channel
Part 4 http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=6k3XGlO7rWI

You get to see Paki (FC) infantry in action. Notice the use of station wagons as APCs. Part 4 talks about the irregulars i.e. lashkars used as a local militia. Also, almost all Paki troops sport a BPJ, and have either the G3 or an AK-47. Also note the use of the Cobra and massed artillery.

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Jan 2009 21:38

parshuram wrote: but accquistions of HDW subs is a valiant aggressive move by PN . There are really giving there underwater arm a huge boost and we are not .. still waiting for RFP of second line ofcoastal subs .They also put HDW out of contention now . Only options availabe now seem to be Amur or scorpene

Do we really expect the Germans to heed Indian advice?
We didn't even honour our complete order of the Shishumars on bribery charges, kicked them out to give the Scorpene the contract and have given no firm indication as to how many decades we will take to decide on the next line of subs.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 20 Jan 2009 03:18

Rishi wrote:Did anyone watch Raggeh Omar of Al Jazeera give his report on the Paki offensive in the Bajour agency? Really worth watching (all 4 parts, abt 10 min each)

Pakistan's War: On the Front Line

Part 1 http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=kQB-IgktV ... re=channel
Part 2 http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=u43ngbDH6 ... re=channel
Part 3 http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=2WmQTxwXr ... re=channel
Part 4 http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=6k3XGlO7rWI

holy hell, how can such a well armed force retreat in the heat of battle. They simply ran, and ran pretty fast (in part 3)!! Whats the use of BPJ, G3, tanks or Cobra when you don't have guts to fight.

I am sorry to say (which i don't like to say about any soldier) but their FF sucks big time.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jan 2009 04:31

rageh omar is ex-BBC.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 20 Jan 2009 11:48

lot of arty fire.
The difference in confidence and body language between arty and infantry soldiers was drastic.
and yeah they just ran and ran after the ambush. After writing so many jokes on Indian Army fighting the terrorists in Kashmir, would the Pakis find them funny when they apply to their own TSPA? Lets see what they do when suicides start happening in their Army.
BTW does anybody have any stats on Suicide rates in TSPA?

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 20 Jan 2009 12:24

With the open use of the Cobra, can we expect some Stinger action soon?

Or has it already happened?

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 20 Jan 2009 13:08

Rishi wrote:With the open use of the Cobra, can we expect some Stinger action soon? Or has it already happened?

Dont know about Bajour agency. But India should try a few well controlled ops in Balochistan using SAMs and ATGMs. Just for Psychological effect. Probably buy few Iglas and Metis-M from the Russian black market for deniability. (Or am I dreaming too much

)

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 20 Jan 2009 13:11

KiranM wrote:
Rishi wrote:With the open use of the Cobra, can we expect some Stinger action soon? Or has it already happened?
Dont know about Bajour agency. But India should try a few well controlled ops in Balochistan using SAMs and ATGMs. Just for Psychological effect. Probably buy few Iglas and Metis-M from the Russian black market for deniablility. (Or am I dreaming too much )

I guess we wont do this because the Pakis will return the favour by targeting our aircraft in J&K.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 20 Jan 2009 13:17

Rishi wrote:
KiranM wrote: Dont know about Bajour agency. But India should try a few well controlled ops in Balochistan using SAMs and ATGMs. Just for Psychological effect. Probably buy few Iglas and Metis-M from the Russian black market for deniablility. (Or am I dreaming too much )
I guess we wont do this because the Pakis will return the favour by targeting our aircraft in J&K.

I get your point.

If we cannot covertly escalate weapon/ equipment wise, can we do tactic/ personnel wise? As in using some of our SF to 'direct' and 'supervise' important hits in Baluchistan.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 20 Jan 2009 13:59

ajay_ijn wrote:
mikoyan wrote:I dont agree that it puts HDW out of contention. But at the rate the TSP's are going they will impact our choices for both the subs (more expensive and better versions) and vendors.

but would having better, more silent submarine than pakistan impact our Submarine hunting or ASW ops against PN Subs that much?

I am not sure if SSK is the best platform to hunt another SSK.

shouldn't TSPs purchase effect our choice of ASW Sensors, weapons and platforms like P-8 , the ASW Corvette, P-17A/P-15A ASW package, ASW Helicopters etc.

Also we should try and steal the secrets of U-214, probably by asking HDW to provide a much better cuztomzied Submarine for India and get info on U-214. we can probably sacrifice fair selection of SSKs in order to get vital info on Pak Subs. In any case our SSKs are not going to play more important role compared our surface warships, carriers or maritime aircraft considering the limitations on speed and endurance even with AIP.

nuclear submarines are suited perfectly for IN type navies, they would also be much better platform for Anti-Ship, carrier escort, land attack and even ASW.

Easier said then done, if that had been so easy then why would we had not done this so long.what i am pointin out is a that decision against HDW by IN would be under a common logic why to purchase a weapon that your enemy already know,

and yes a sub hunting sub is a very bad idea for procurement of submarine . a typical ASW platform is key to a strong deterent agaisnt good subs with PN . but we do require a credible number atleast to form a battle group !!!

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 20 Jan 2009 21:49

There has been some speculations recently that the pakis are not happy with the RD-93 engine for the JF-17 and are looking into getting the M53 engine from France. If true, would also indicate that they don't trust the Chinese WS-13 engine either.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 20 Jan 2009 22:01

Vick wrote:There has been some speculations recently that the pakis are not happy with the RD-93 engine for the JF-17 and are looking into getting the M53 engine from France. If true, would also indicate that they don't trust the Chinese WS-13 engine either.

Most definatly - especially as any engine the Chinese come up with will be derived version of the RD-93 , IMO the brother that TSP is , it would be under some pressure to use the WS-13 or it may be looked upon as the one brother who doesn't trust the other one.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 21 Jan 2009 14:57

Babur and its air launched version Raad seem to the green painted land attack versions of the chinese C-602 or the Hang Niao - 1 or the Chang Feng -1
All these are derivatives of the Kh-55 Kent that came from Ukraine (Smuggled by the AQ Khan network and then smuggled to china!)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jan 2009 19:41

The Story of the smuggling of the KH-55 Kent from Ukraine (dated 2006):

Ukraine’s recently installed democratic government of the illegal export of 20 Russian-made Kh-55SM cruise missiles, each with a range of 3,000 km:

The Kh-55 family of missiles is Russia’s main nuclear-armed cruise missile launched from the air by strategic bombers. The missiles, exported in 2000 and 2001, were diverted from Soviet stocks left behind after Ukraine declared independence in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The illicit sale took place despite the fact that Ukraine was an regime member. Twelve of the Kh-55SMs reportedly went to Iran, six to China and two to Pakistan. Iran is alleged to have paid nearly $US50million ($A65.5million) for its missiles.

None of the Kh-55SMs from Ukraine had their 200 kiloton nuclear warheads. But the deal included the system for testing, programming and launching the missiles which had been in service for a number of years. China and Pakistan, both declared nuclear powers, evidently wanted to strip the missiles to copy and incorporate its design, propulsion and guidance components into their own efforts to develop long-range cruise missiles—a process known as reverse engineering.

The author gives too mucj credit to the Pukes for their ability to reverse engineer the missile. They would have been asked to pitch financialy for the missiles ala JF-17 story.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Jan 2009 19:52

What exactly was India doing in these crazy years(other than giving lectures on morals to others)?
We didn't try on lay our hands on anything??

namit k · Post by **namit k** » 21 Jan 2009 20:14

Rishi wrote:
KiranM wrote: Dont know about Bajour agency. But India should try a few well controlled ops in Balochistan using SAMs and ATGMs. Just for Psychological effect. Probably buy few Iglas and Metis-M from the Russian black market for deniablility. (Or am I dreaming too much )
I guess we wont do this because the Pakis will return the favour by targeting our aircraft in J&K.

they would be most welcome to return the favour,indeed we may say that pa is occupying nw of kashmir and therefore launch a kargil again

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 22 Jan 2009 17:54

26/11: Pak says it authorised China to deal with India

Foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi has said that Pakistan had given a "blank cheque" to China authorising it to negotiate with India on its behalf to deal with the aftermath of the Mumbai terrorist attacks.
Speaking at a reception at the Chinese embassy here on Wednesday night, Qureshi said he had told Chinese special envoy He Yafei to "go to Delhi and you have a blank cheque from us".

Now they are arm twisting both India and US by giving more leg room to china,just see how aggressively they blackmail,just a day after Obama Administration warned over Aid link to War on terror.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 22 Jan 2009 18:23

i will call this a stupidity rather on there part as they are the ones who need aid not US . with US is whole west and ofocurse a significant east {middle east } as well and if they bluntly say like this they surely will be alone with china who is not US !!!

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 22 Jan 2009 18:28

Good , I hope they bark out to NATO even more and effectively negate the chances of any more F-16's or sophisticated technology from western nations , I know it's far fethced but not completely impossible scenario.

sum · Post by **sum** » 22 Jan 2009 22:04

Foreign minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi has said that Pakistan had given a "blank cheque" to China authorising it to negotiate with India on its behalf to deal with the aftermath of the Mumbai terrorist attacks.

The Chinese sure did give a blank cheque when the Pakis went with katora in hand to Uncle Hu in the days leading up to 26/11

Another of the Paki moments of "strategic brilliance" at display. Am not so sure that this ploy of playing a already pissed Unkil against China is going to make the new GOTUS very happy.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 22 Jan 2009 22:17

pukes always try to overdepend on one single nation when facing India and that might give temporary psy relief but has disastrous results in future.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 23 Jan 2009 00:04

Why are some members so upset with Germany supplying Subs to Pakis? They tried to sell us that, we bungled, French tried to sell us Agosta we bungled. If we put ourselves in their shoes and take into consideration the current economic scenario we will do exactly the same. We can't stop the whole world from selling weapons to pakis, it is a sovreign nation that has every right to buy anything they want from anyone they want. If our decision makers and every loser who files a PIL in the name of "Desh Bhakti" leads to delays and missed opportunities its not the fault of pakis, or Germans or French or South Africans. We deserve what we get.
Pakistanis have a game plan and they are working tirelessly to achieve that. They want to negate IN superamacy by having top notch sub force in Asia. Here is a scenario, what if they launch strike at A&N islands, their SSG group captures small part of that island, announce to world this is pakistani territory or lets say Lakshwadeep Island. What will India do?
Pakis are slowly but surely chipping away at our strengths and we as a nation are sleeping. We only wake up when Mumbai, Parliament, Jaipur blasts happen, we go with our Rona Dhona (R&D), go back to our slumber. Nothing changes here.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 23 Jan 2009 00:35

As far as I know the contract for the HDW has not been signed yet and negotiations have entered a final stage , so there is still quite some time before they are actually delivered.

In the meanwhile 6 scorpenes are u/c in Mezgaon and I hope GoI issues RFP for 6 second line subs soon , apart from that the ATV is coming up well enough.

Whatever happens , we ought to maintain a 3:1 numerical superiority over TSP in all high tech weapons. If they have 6 subs , we must have close to 20 at least.