Indian Interests

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ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

X-posted by Rishi in the indian Army history thread. Color highlights by me....
The Aurora puzzle and other images of Indian leaders in 1971
Afsan Chowdhury
Of the more interesting encounters that I have had with players of the 1971 war, General Jagjit Singh Aurora would be one. I was doing a radio series for the BBC radio on 1971 and in this connection I went to India in 2003. I met different kinds of people and some were easy to connect while some were difficult to pin down. The late J.N. Dixit, India's foreign policy guru, was very welcoming and despite his robust reputation as a hawk, he came across as much more mild than I had expected. At his Delhi residence he was very hospitable and on one matter what he said seemed quite intriguing. He claimed that more Muslims than Hindus had crossed over to India. This was rather unexpected information going by conventional wisdom though he gave his reasons firmly. I did play that interview on air and it received some protests as well. But then Dixit was in charge of the refugees in 1971 and in a later phone call to him from Dhaka, he stood his ground and was even a bit brusque. I put all the angles and views on air but I still wish there was more thorough research on this issue.
Pranab Mukherjee and his Congress Party was then out of power. However, as a Bengali junior Minister in 1971, I expected some quality information and he had in fact agreed to the interview eagerly. He was the first on my list. However, as soon as I put down the tape recorder and everything down and after polite small talks asked about 1971, he said that he couldn't answer any questions as he was a member of the cabinet in 1971 and thus was under an oath of secrecy.

..... We descended into uncomfortable small talk and at one point I asked, if he could say anything that would not be a breach. So he stated a few things which weren't great secrets but it was interesting. Like he had gone on a mission to different countries of the world arguing the case for India but even the pro-Indian countries had said that they didn't want an end to 'Pakistan' or that they wanted West Pakistan intact. Well, that wasn't bad and after a few more quotes I thought it wasn't a total loss. Interestingly, the only other person who used the same argument to refuse an interview to my Kolkata colleague Kalpana Prodhan was the man in charge of West Bengal in 1971, then under presidential rule, Siddharta Shankar Roy. Why both the two major Bengali politicians refused to discuss 1971 I'll never know.

Arundhati, Mujib Bahini and KB Lal
One Bengali official who readily agreed to talk was Ambassador Arundhati Roy, .... She also put me in touch with the Defense Secretary of India in 1971, K.B. Lal, who was much past 80 years, very ailing but so formidable a person that the venerable diplomat and PSC member forbade me to ever divulge to him that it was she who had given me his telephone number.

K.B. Lal, all the things above and as warned, had a razor sharp mind. I am amazed at the way he spelt out all that had happened. He didn't divulge any super secret but used the same intelligence and wit as he must have to ensure that India was battle ready to describe the complex nature of the war. He was not responsible for designing the war strategy but making sure that supply, co-ordination and policy were in harmony. He spelt out the real politik of international politics that year which it seems was not just better than that of Pakistan, but that of the US too. Maybe the then Soviet Union even was painted into a diplomatic corner and forced to be a closer friend of India than it wished to be.

........
So nothing has changed. The countries that Pranab Mukherjee visited didnt want TSP to be destroyed or wanted West Pakistan to be retained. The same was the refrain from the Kissinger Nixon tapes. Its all related to the Great Game to keep India out of Central Asia and the other is the grand bargain with the ummah to allow an Islamic state in the sub-continent as pro quid quo for their subversience to the West.

Second is how Mrs Gandhi took advantage of the situation and changed the force of history in the sub-continent. 1971 was a black swan moment and she was ready for it.

And kudos to Pranabda for keeping his oath. Bravo!
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Philip »

Indian Interests at this critical juncture.The ongoing Israeli gambit in Gaza is an excellent oportunity to see how both countries have reacted to their security crises and who is supporting them worldwide.Another war closer to home in Lanka is also examined.

India after 26/11:

Done nothing militarily.Done nothing diplomatically too! Relying solely upon Uncle Sam to deliver the goods.Has made little effort at the UNSC either."War" of words with Pak.Has received paltry support from the US ,which warned us against attacking Pak militarily (Condy Rice to Pranab).Pak still receiving US arms and money.Pak refusing to hand over suspects,protecting Dawood.India instead rewards the US with defence contracts to counter the very wepaons that Pak gets from the US! Pak hands over 9/11 and Afghan War AlQ suspects to the Us unconditionally,but demand "evidence" from India for the same!

Result.India made to look a laughing stock by Pak,impotent and brittle.Pak launches a second LET raid into J&K,stil going on for four days+! Why has not air power (attack helos) been used as yet? Every day that the seige drags on only gives the terrorists more "oxygen" of publicity.OIndia still losing on the battlefield as terrorists keep on striking India repeatedly.

Israel after repeated Hamas rocket attacks,despite leaving Gaza:

Has attacked with full force.Eliminated some Hamas leaders involved in terror,that too after warning them that their houses would be hit! Less talk more action.Has sent in ground troops after air attacks to divide Gaza.
Has received full support from the US,both military and diplomatic.
UNSC impotant and unable to implelent a ceasefire because of the US veto.A ceasefire will take place only after Israel has accomplished its major goals.Israel has countered collateral damage criticism by comparing the "40-60 rocket attacks daily" into Israel as unacceptable for any nation.Hamas hiding its rockets amongst civilians is used as a counter to criticism.

Result.Israel is dealing with the problem itself,relying upon no one and caring little for any criticism.Hamas is taking a pounding and has lost about 200+ fighters at least,including top leaders.Israel triumphant on the battlefield.

Sri Lanka and LTTE terrorism and separatist war for Eelam:

After 25 years since the '83 riots,the GOSL finally took the war into the LTTE heartland,despite a poor economy,high losses on its military forces,but went after the LTTE ,village by village,after the LTTE doublecrossed every SL govt. that tried to make peace with it.,even with foreign interlocutors (Norway),who tried for years to bring the LTTE to give up war for a political settlement.The LTTE unilaterally broke ceasefire after ceasefire and despite much international criticism,the GOSL in the last year pursued with singlemindedness its goal of defeating the LTTE,despite many suicide attacks in the south.It waged a diplomatic war also,finally getting the major international powers to declare the LTTE as a terrorist outfit.Has India done even half as much with the Paki terrorist groups to get them proscribed at the UN or by foreign govts.What is the size of Sri Lanka and what is India's size? Compare the two nations as economic powers and military powers.
My late Lankan friend Anura B., never said truer words when he bemoaned India's pathetic diplomacy internationally when compared with that of China's.Here even Lankan diplomacy has achieved more than India,as despite massive TNadu pressure upon the GOI,it has not budged an inch in dealing with the LTTE on the battlefield!

Result.Lanka wins on the battlefield as well as destroying the LTTE's credibility and that of its demand for "Eelam",now a lost cause.A political victory too.

So how does India compare with these two examples? There are many other nations that can also be examined,sadly India is way down on the list of nations who vigorously protect their self interests.A national disgrace.
JE Menon
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by JE Menon »

>>And kudos to Pranabda for keeping his oath

True. Thx Ramana for pointing it out... Generally speaking:

Our EAM may be a tiny guy physically... but is no wilting lily. Please note his comments since 26/11 (carefully)... With his comments to parliament and in the media, he has in many ways set a tone which our western neighbours should be very worried about...

Moreover, PC's comments on "Walk the Talk" with Shekhar Gupta can only be fully appreciated if the whole interview can be watched...quote snippets don't do the job.

Things are not entirely as they seem. Perhaps not to maximum jingo satisfaction, but our friends across the border are I hope taking careful note. They should not get carried away by their verbal bravado.

The feeling I am getting is that are certain options that will be exercised if we do not get what we want (one way or the other). Pakistan knows what we want.

I could be completely wrong of course...but we will see in the coming weeks & months!!!
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Philip »

Here is Romesh Bhandari (pal of Kashoggi and architect of the policy of appeasement over Sri Lanka that saw the disatrous Indo-Lanka agreement signed, consigning Rajiv Gandhi to his ultimate fate) on how to deal with Pakistan.This latter day Neville Chamberlain wants us to open our hearts,minds,borders entirely to Pakistan, trusting in its leadership completely so that "peace in our time" yet again in the 21st century can take place.Is he hinting at a "covert diplomatic job?".

(excerpt) "...It would suit the interests of the US and Britain as Pakistan could then concentrate, without distraction, on the problem of Afghanistan."
Mr.Bhandari,what about India's interests?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... rt+results
Romesh Bhandari

January 04, 2009

We are entering into the sixth week after the Mumbai carnage and a New Year has come. There have been belied expectations leading to frustration. There was a point when war seemed a real possibility. Thanks to a firm assurance by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, that war is not an option, the climate is relatively cool.

There are four pillars that delineate the parameters within which we must conduct our efforts. War is no solution and as such must not be waged. Terrorism has to be rooted out from Pakistani soil. Democracy in Pakistan has to get firmly established for military takeovers to become history. It is now time to bring permanent peace and stability there. As far as war is concerned, irrespective of what some hawks may demand, war cannot be an option. When India became nuclear so did Pakistan and it came on par with us. We lost the advantage of our superiority in conventional warfare.

Terrorism is the seminal issue that has to be addressed. It has become an international demand. Even the Pakistanis are victims of it. We should make it the focal issue at present and give it the highest priority. India cannot do this individually. It has to be a collective, international effort. Mumbai has paid a very heavy price. The sacrifices of Mumbaikars have brought into sharp relief the imperativeness of completely destroying terrorism emanating from Pakistan.

The US, Britain, Russia, the European Union and the UN Security Council have all taken this up with the Pakistani authorities. In this regard, even China has come on board, though on Indo-Pak matters it has clearly been soft on Pakistan.

We have to keep up a relentless effort to see that other matters do not distract the major powers and the Security Council.

Pakistan has to be made to act. The civilian government is committed to it. It is clear that the army alone can deliver in Pakistan. Without their genuine involvement nothing will happen. It is here that ultimatums need to be given. Pakistan should show some tangible results. It should abandon its withdrawal mode.

This is where the US, Britain and the UN can be most effective as they have the requisite levers. Covert diplomatic pressures should be given more space. They are working and results, meagre as they may be, are emerging. However, if nothing happens in the near future, there are two lethal levers that would need to be applied. The first is the economic one. Even the apartheid regime in South Africa had to succumb to this. The second is the military one. Supplies of arms aid, spares and new military supplies might need to be suspended. There is, as such, no shortage of measures.

Our past experience has been that civilian governments are invariably more difficult to deal with. A dictator could deliver. Times have changed. I believe that democracy is now our best bet. The elected reflect public opinion. And public opinion is now in favour of the end of confrontation and resorting to cooperation. As one young Pakistani journalist told me when I visited Pakistan as Foreign Secretary several years ago, “Pakistanis are taught in schools that India is an enemy. Books preach hatred. We have been fighting wars against each other. Why can we not set aside guns and bullets and wage a war between us as to who is able to build more cement plants and factories? Who provides more employment, more schools, more hospitals?” This was rare at that time, but today it is a sentiment shared by the majority. Further, it is not in anyone’s interest to see a splintered Pakistan. We want unity and stability in Pakistan. We want a responsible
government in Pakistan. Both want to work for providing our people a better quality of life.

The time has now come to take some bold steps with respect to Kashmir. No magic solution can be found. Let us look into the past. Prime Minister Indira Gandhi and Pakistani President Zulfikar Ali Bhutto had signed an agreement in Shimla after the 1971 war. There is a government in Delhi led by Mrs Gandhi’s party. The President of Pakistan is the son-in-law of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Let both governments jointly commit themselves to irrevocably adhere to the letter and spirit of the Simla agreement. This should be noted and endorsed by the UN Security Council in a resolution.

We have come a long way in our confidence-building measures. Let the Line of Control become a border of peace and tranquillity. Let the people of Jammu and Kashmir interact with each other freely. Let us not have any more of hostile acts, lives lost and property destroyed. The people of J&K have a right to start enjoying the three Ps — a life of Peace, Progress and Prosperity. This will itself remove a major motivator for acts of terror. It would suit the interests of the US and Britain as Pakistan could then concentrate, without distraction, on the problem of Afghanistan. This is what would be historic, a precursor to the type of 21st century we would like to see our future generations live in.

(Romesh Bhandari is a former Foreign Secretary)
ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

JEM and Philip. The interesting thing is what Mr K Lall says. 1971 was perfect storm and Mrs G steered the ship of state to achieve the paki Bifurcation. This bifurcation has led to the current jihadi state of TSP for everyone to see.

The question to ask is the Indian state ready to seize the moment?

Gaza is not enough atmosphere yet. Has to be something more chaotic.

Israel in Gaza and Lebanon is par for the course. Need something more out of pattern.

Have to force US to support India against TSP or stand aside keeping PRC in check.
ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

Interesting quote from the article on Risk management posted in the Golbal econmy thread...
In a crisis, Brown, the risk manager at AQR, said, “you want to know who can kill you and whether or not they will and who you can kill if necessary. You need to have an emergency backup plan that assumes everyone is out to get you. In peacetime, you think about other people’s intentions. In wartime, only their capabilities matter. VaR is a peacetime statistic.”
Unfortunately every GOI has been on the peacetime mode. They dont understand they are in state of undeclared war with TSP and its backers.

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/magaz ... wanted=all
satya
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by satya »

Iran's future alignment just might present such an opportunity .
ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

Ameet wrote:NYT Op-Ed: The Next World Order

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/02/opini ... dia&st=cse

CHINA and India are in a struggle for a top rung on the ladder of world power, but their approaches to the state and to power could not be more different.

Two days after last month’s terrorist attack on Mumbai, I met with a Chinese friend who was visiting India on business. He was shocked as much by the transparent and competitive minute-by-minute reporting of the attack by India’s dozens of news channels as by the ineffectual response of the government. He had seen a middle-class housewife on national television tell a reporter that the Indian commandos delayed in engaging the terrorists because they were too busy guarding political big shots. He asked how the woman could get away with such a statement.

I explained sarcasm resonates in a nation that is angry and disappointed with its politicians. My friend switched the subject to the poor condition of India’s roads, its dilapidated cities and the constant blackouts. Suddenly, he stopped and asked: “With all this, how did you become the second-fastest growing economy in the world? China’s leaders fear the day when India’s government will get its act together.”

The answer to his question may lie in a common saying among Indians that “our economy grows at night when the government is asleep.”
As if to illustrate this, the Mumbai stock market rose in the period after the terrorist attacks. Two weeks later, in several state elections, incumbents were ousted over economic issues, not security.

All this baffled my Chinese friend, and undoubtedly many of his countrymen, whose own success story has been scripted by an efficient state. They are uneasy because their chief ally, Pakistan, is consistently linked to terrorism while across the border India’s economy keeps rising disdainfully. It puzzles them that the anger in India over the Mumbai attacks is directed against Indian politicians rather than Muslims or Pakistan.

The global financial crisis has definitely affected India’s growth, and it will be down to perhaps 7 percent this year from 8.7 percent in 2007. According to my friend, China is hurting even more. What really perplexes the Chinese, he said, is that scores of nations have engaged in the same sorts of economic reforms as India, so why is it that it’s the Indian economy that has become the developing world’s second best? The speed with which India is creating world-class companies is also a shock to the Chinese, whose corporate structure is based on state-owned and foreign companies.

I have no satisfactory explanation for all this, but I think it may have something to do with India’s much-reviled caste system. Vaishyas, members of the merchant caste, who have learned over generations how to accumulate capital, give the nation a competitive advantage. Classical liberals may be right in thinking that commerce is a natural trait, but it helps if there is a devoted group of risk-taking entrepreneurs around to take advantage of the opportunity. Not surprisingly, Vaishyas still dominate the Forbes list of Indian billionaires.

In a much-discussed magazine article last year, Lee Kwan Yew, the former prime minister of Singapore, raised an important question: Why does the rest of the world view China’s rise as a threat but India’s as a wonderful success story? The answer is that India is a vast, unwieldy, open democracy ruled by a coalition of 20 parties. It is evolving through a daily flow of ideas among the conservative forces of caste and religion, the liberals who dominate intellectual life, and the new forces of global capitalism.

The idea of becoming a military power in the 21st century embarrasses many Indians. This ambivalence goes beyond Mahatma Gandhi’s nonviolent struggle for India’s freedom, or even the Buddha’s message of peace. The skeptical Indian temper goes back to the 3,500-year-old “Nasadiya” verse of the Rig Veda, which meditates on the creation of the universe: “Who knows and who can say, whence it was born and whence came this creation? The gods are later than this world’s creation. Who knows then whence it first came into being?” When you have millions of gods, you cannot afford to be theologically narcissistic. It also makes you suspect power.

Both the Chinese and the Indians are convinced that their prosperity will only increase in the 21st century. In China it will be induced by the state; in India’s case, it may well happen despite the state. Indians expect to continue their relentless march toward a modern, democratic, market-based future. In this, terrorist attacks are a noisy, tragic, but ultimately futile sideshow.

However, Indians are painfully aware that they must reform their government bureaucracy, police and judiciary — institutions, paradoxically, they were so proud of a generation ago. When that happens, India may become formidable, a thought that undoubtedly worries China’s leaders.

Gurcharan Das is the author of “India Unbound.”
My take is India's USP was its business class which understood game theory before it was formalized. The INC in its moroness suppressed the business instincts of Indians and kept them bound.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Philip »

Ramanna,perhaps there is a silver lining in the clouds of terror perpetrated by Pak at this juncture,It has snapped the security somnolent UPA jutka,out of its stupor.The antics of the US,still trying to save its rent-boy Pak at any cost is also removing some of the blinkers of the UPA's MEA mandarins.Pak's consistent denial of the truth of 26/11 and its combative counterattack against India,accusing it for all of the subcontinent's woes,is utterly absurd and is making the UPA realsie that all its goodwill towards the Paki state has not yeilded any similar feelings from the Paki military establishment,who truly rule the country.Zardari has been shown to be a eunuch,Sharif has been shut up,warned that he would be "shot down" if he kept opening his mouth and the ISI continues to make merry with terror attacks as we are still seeing in Poonch.Perhaps realisation has dawned upon the decision makers of the UPA that with eelctions round the corner,the hard line and tough road has to be taken,forsaking the easy soft route towards the land of the impure.
ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

Philip wrote:Ramanna,perhaps there is a silver lining in the clouds of terror perpetrated by Pak at this juncture,It has snapped the security somnolent UPA jutka,out of its stupor.The antics of the US,still trying to save its rent-boy Pak at any cost is also removing some of the blinkers of the UPA's MEA mandarins.Pak's consistent denial of the truth of 26/11 and its combative counterattack against India,accusing it for all of the subcontinent's woes,is utterly absurd and is making the UPA realsie that all its goodwill towards the Paki state has not yeilded any similar feelings from the Paki military establishment,who truly rule the country.Zardari has been shown to be a eunuch,Sharif has been shut up,warned that he would be "shot down" if he kept opening his mouth and the ISI continues to make merry with terror attacks as we are still seeing in Poonch.Perhaps realisation has dawned upon the decision makers of the UPA that with eelctions round the corner,the hard line and tough road has to be taken,forsaking the easy soft route towards the land of the impure.
Thats is why I said in the TSP thread that TSP will have a coup before Obama takes office or at latest by time of Indian elections.
ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

Two realted psots to my comment about Indian USP
Singha wrote:certain coastal arab communities like yemenis, oman; yahudis; gujaratis; fujianese; tamils have been trading on a continent wide scale for hundreds of years...reaching even into central asian trade routes. finding super sharp trading and financial skills has not been a problem for india.

however we were overtaken by the europeans in middle ages
by europeans in the systematic application and documentation of logical and scientific methods to industry and a process wherein such skills are carefully imparted to next gen and also preseved as institutional knowledge. this is the foundation of all the big MNCs. war became a science and so did management.

with 'science' what happens is that a good training and education can make anyone powerful and not just those with a natural genius or cultural affinity to any trade. prussian aristocrats made war into a science and no longer were geniuses like napoleon or alaksindr needed to win victory.

one sees the old family-clan oriented trading businesses falling away beyond a point while more professionally managed cos manage to stick around better. this has been
commented on in various books. in response the old trading clans of marwaris and gujaratis are also focussing on good education and training for their scions and introducing less of family control into their businesses. 'trust' is one area where good rule of law and efficient courts can help - in family and clan dealings, trust is ensured by blood ties, presence of elders, "face/log kya kahenge" considerations;

when moving out of family ownership as you can see all development countries have good justice systems and rule of law to lower cost of doing business (less capital has to be kept in reserve , less risk of failure, no need to pay the local goonda to resolve dispute)
and
SwamyG wrote:
certain coastal arab communities like yemenis, oman; yahudis; gujaratis; fujianese; tamils have been trading on a continent wide scale for hundreds of years...reaching even into central asian trade routes. finding super sharp trading and financial skills has not been a problem for india.
As usual you hit the nail on its head. The subcontinent peninsula because of its geographical advantage was one of the crucial pieces of real-estate that was involved in trading. The region increased its wealth by not looting, but by carrying trade across the globe. Right from Middle East, to China along with Rome and the Far South East.
GD, You sure you are not an MBA in mind! You are a trend watcher par excellence!

SwamyG, Good insight. Try reading Braudel's third volume chapter on India.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by brihaspati »

Good points about the subcontinent being a crucial trade pivot.

My only concern is about the need to ensure low costs of doing business globally. In between the high time in Indian overland and maritime trade up to the 700's and the European overtaking beginning early 1600's there is a 900 year gap where India is silent about the loss of her international trade. The gradually being replaced pre-Muslim kingdoms gave up the international trade into Persian/Arab, Chinese hands, the Delhi Sultanate similarly carried on, and the Mughals were in no position to dominate the open ocean. Indian shipbuilding began to slide behind the Arabs, Chinese and the Sri Lankans in the early medieval. Land trade decreased through the north-west passage. There is a storm raging now in many threads about religion - so I am not going into it, :) But it appears that this withdrawal of the subcontinent from international trade dominance coincided with the advent of a cetain ideology and culture, who have been known to cause difficulties in the way of traders travelling the traditional routes if they did not belong to a certain faith (non-Hindu references exist at a time when the Orientalists were not yet born who would be able to conjure up non-existent Hinduism out of thin air for colonial and neo-fascist purposes :mrgreen: ).

Add to this, the fact that a significant proportion of capital in those days - not only bullion, but human capital in the form of skilled labour and reproductive resources- women, were enslaved and exported out of India as part of Central Asian slave trade, extreme capital extraction with no reinvestment of surplus under Sultanate and the Mughals and resulting abandonment of land by producers, was a factor in loss of international trade. More importantly, this might have led to (1) military inability to counter Europeans (2) non-transition to capitalist accumulation and "production for the market" or imvestment in state machinery required to ensure foreign trade dominance.

The dispute about war technology, and industrial development through logic and sceince is cloudy - tantalizing bits and pieces here and there but no systematic research on factors like the copying of the Indian loom, Indian ship designs, Indian mathematics, Indian geography, Indian chemistry and metallurgy, (there is even a dispute about use of gunpowder and light gunpowder based artillery - even earlier comparisons are available with European war technologies - like the Mahashilakantaga) by the Europeans. What about the effects of destruction of the Indian universities at the hands of a so-called "scientific-ideology", or its intelligentsia (some of whom are supposed to have been "sent" to work at the courts of middle-eastern warlords, but we have no records of their output there but we have plenty of tall-claims of miraculous inventions and discoveries sourced from a single revelatory text exactly at the same period - just the period when old university towns like Gundishapur, or Odantapuri or Nalanda were being "warmed" up a bit and their texts "vanishing" either to make a meal or...) being eliminated, that Indian science and logic stalled?

This 900 year interlude should also be seen as a lesson, that global domination of trade will be impossible if that trade cannot be secured militarily, the source of that trade - production of value within India cannot be secured if the systems that generate that value cannot be secured militarily - or even secured culturally, such as education/research of an open and inquisitive nature. Also geo-politically both a control over the Central-Asian trade nodes and the Indian Ocean itself was/remains important.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by svinayak »

"We the Nation(s) of India," that has appeared
in Tehelka magazine in India this past weekend. URL:

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main41.asp ... we_the.asp

It raises issues like the following:

-- India's fragmentation of identities

-- Fragments turning into politically unweildy and opportunistic vote
banking

-- These fragments becoming appropriated by foreign nexuses.
Pan-Islam, Global Christian Evangelism, and Maoist, representing the
three global civilizational forces respectively, are each carving out
a piece of the elephant.

-- Indian elites unwilling to deal with this issue and hiding behind
various fig leafs: denial of the problem; political correctness in
understanding the problem; only admitting those problems which they
feel are easily solvable. I refer to this as the Bollywood ending in
which "everyone lives happily ever afterwards."

-- The role of academic scholars like Romila Thapar and Martha
Nussbaum in exacerbating India's divisiveness, by promoting
"victimhood" of one Indian group against another.

-- Why Indian minority leaders are no Obama: they advance personal
careers not on integrated nation building but on divisive identity
manipulations.

-- Is this a superpower?

On a somewhat related topic, some of you might not have seen the
video of my earlier talk organized by the Asian-Indian Chamber in New
Jersey, just 10 days before the Mumbai attacks. I raised issues which

were troubling to some folks at the time, but it seems that recent
events make such public discussions imperative. Here's the url for the
2-hour panel including Q&A:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6836&hl=en

Regards,

Rajiv Malhotra
ShauryaT
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ShauryaT »

Pragati
Contents
PERSPECTIVE
2 Politicise terror
Electoral politics is the best way to punish bad policies
Rohit Pradhan
4 Put Pakistan “on the table”
Terrorist aggression cannot be terminated by
appeasement
Vanni Cappelli
6 The people have spoken
Democracy returns, and with it comes a new opportunity
Sushant K Singh
FILTER
8 Essential readings of the month
Ravi Gopalan & Vijay Vikram
IN DEPTH
9 Human capitalism
A discussion on ideas for India’s future with Nandan
Nilekani
Nitin Pai
13 Improving India’s anti-terrorist responses
The need for scenario planning and read teaming
Shaunak S Agarkhedkar
ROUNDUP
16 The empire strikes back
Thirteen reasons to feel gloomy about economic reforms
in 2009
Bibek Debroy
18 The biggest solo flight of them all
More reason to proceed with economic liberalisation
V Anantha Nageswaran
20 Underlying agrarian distress
Hydrogeology offers insights for irrigation policy
Suvrat Kher
23 Discarding ideological blinkers
India’s schools need an intellectual liberalisation
Renu Pokharna
BOOKS
25 National process re-engineering
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Yogi_G
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Yogi_G »

Acharya wrote:"We the Nation(s) of India," that has appeared
in Tehelka magazine in India this past weekend. URL:
I am surprised Tehelka published something like this, aren't they liberal p-sec???
svinayak
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by svinayak »

MAIN ARTICLE
India at crossroads:Demographic dividends

By Saumitra Mohan
Demographic dividends will accrue with less dependent population and more economically productive population.

Even though all of us everywhere in the country seem very busy discussing and debating the various dimensions and implications of the impending financial crisis, there is something to cheer about which is going unnoticed in all this. This relates to the demographic dividends which India shall soon be reaping notwithstanding all that talk of various kinds of complex problems stemming from an ever growing population in the country.

But before we actually start doing so, there are certain issues which would require sorting out. Otherwise benefits of demographic dividends shall prove to be mere wishful thinking. We definitely have over a billion people and are told to be adding over 10 million more every year. The demographic dividends is said to accrue on account of the fact that very soon, we shall have less dependent population and more economically productive population. This is more so at a time when many of the countries in the West are actually witnessing a negative population growth.

However, we must make value addition to our human resources to be used as a workforce in different fields for varied economic activities. After all, with people who have small capacities dotting the length and breadth of our country, we can never hope to be a great country. For being a great country and a great power, there shall be need for people with varied skills and capacities led by a visionary and dynamic leadership.

Today, it is believed that India is going to remain a young country for a long time to come, with very positive implications for our economic development. After all, we are going to have relatively very less economically dependent population on our scarce resources than we have had all along. Moreover, we are also going to have more economically productive people. We are at such a crucial juncture of our demographic history when we shall have fewer children and less elderly population, who are generally economically unproductive. However, in all this we are likely to have a predominant population engaged in different economic activities, much more in number than we have experienced so far, thereby adding further to the value creation.

Having a reduced fertility rate for the women and having fewer children also mean that women are going to have more free time, thereby enabling them to join the productive workforce. Women constituting almost half of our population, their release from their conventional chores might prove to be a blessing in disguise thereby adding to the future economic growth of our country.

Not only this, having less population of children and elderly citizens to tend to, would also mean availability of additional resources for the government which it was using for provisioning health and basic education facilities. These additional resources can further supplement government’s productive ventures, including putting up sound infrastructure for spurring economic growth.

It is believed that one-third of the economic growth we see in South-East Asia is because of their abilities to reap the demographic dividends at a right time in a right fashion. The governments in those countries could successfully provide the basic medical and educational facilities to their population, thereby adding quality to their human resources.

As a result of surplus disposable money with people on account of less spending on elderly and child population, people can spend more on their education and health, which would further add value and quality to the human capital. But one also feels that we shall require sustained spending to continuously upgrade our human resources. In fact, quite against the belief that elderly population is unproductive, one can actually utilise the services of elderly population for selective activities which can better suit their age and physical abilities.

The Neo-Malthusian analysis, however, disputes the demographic dividend argument. They believe that dependence of more population on the same resources cannot help economic growth. But one disagrees with their argument. After all, our population density is much less than many of the South-Asian, South East Asian or East Asian countries including Japan and we are naturally much more endowed than many or all of them.

But it is not the absolute growth of working population, but the relative growth compared to the child and elderly population that creates scope for reaping demographic dividends. Real opportunity occurs due to a higher growth of working age population coupled with slow and even negative growth of dependent population.

Different states in India are at different stages of demographic transition. Therefore, the demographic dividends shall also be reaped variously by them, depending on their respective abilities, motivation and specific policies and social conditions in those states. This, despite many having agreeing that the positive linkage between economic growth and demographic dividends phenomenon is not conclusively proved. One just hopes that a right mix of policies and motivation may actually help us turn our huge population’s liability into an asset.

(The writer is an IAS officer of the West Bengal cadre.)
http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Dec ... 105738.asp
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Keshav »

Yogi_G wrote:
Acharya wrote:"We the Nation(s) of India," that has appeared
in Tehelka magazine in India this past weekend. URL:
I am surprised Tehelka published something like this, aren't they liberal p-sec???
I think its probably best to actually read Tehelka before sayings things like that. They might or might not be depending on who you are.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Yogi_G »

Keshav wrote: I think its probably best to actually read Tehelka before sayings things like that. They might or might not be depending on who you are.
I dont know who you are but I did follow Tehelka for some time especially on their so called expose of the Gujarat riots government involvement thingy...

Their article by Sherry Rehman on eradicating poverty to tackle terrorism is what led me to doubt their "secularism"...
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Keshav »

Yogi_G wrote:I dont know who you are but I did follow Tehelka for some time especially on their so called expose of the Gujarat riots government involvement thingy...

Their article by Sherry Rehman on eradicating poverty to tackle terrorism is what led me to doubt their "secularism"...
I didn't mean to sound accusatory, but far too often, you find BRFites who just sort of jump on some supposed "English media hating" bandwagon without going out to watch the shows, read the articles, and make up a mind of their own.

Sorry if you saw any malice in the comment.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Rahul M »

tehelka did come out with the most well researched report on virulent EJ activity in India.

it seems surprising because most of their top honchos are firmly in the DIE/WKK bracket.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

Keshav wrote:
Yogi_G wrote:I dont know who you are but I did follow Tehelka for some time especially on their so called expose of the Gujarat riots government involvement thingy...

Their article by Sherry Rehman on eradicating poverty to tackle terrorism is what led me to doubt their "secularism"...
I didn't mean to sound accusatory, but far too often, you find BRFites who just sort of jump on some supposed "English media hating" bandwagon without going out to watch the shows, read the articles, and make up a mind of their own.

Sorry if you saw any malice in the comment.
Keshav, From above exchange looks like the old Chinese saying" While pointing an accusing finger, three fingers are pointed at self" applies.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Keshav »

I honestly don't think it applies here, but it doesn't matter.

Regardless, this is OT.
Yogi_G
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Yogi_G »

Keshav wrote:
Yogi_G wrote:I dont know who you are but I did follow Tehelka for some time especially on their so called expose of the Gujarat riots government involvement thingy...

Their article by Sherry Rehman on eradicating poverty to tackle terrorism is what led me to doubt their "secularism"...
I didn't mean to sound accusatory, but far too often, you find BRFites who just sort of jump on some supposed "English media hating" bandwagon without going out to watch the shows, read the articles, and make up a mind of their own.

Sorry if you saw any malice in the comment.
No problem Keshav :)
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Hiten »

not sure if it belongs here


India plans to triple trade with Africa, deepen ties

good thing i say, helps diversify our trade reln - gives our exporters alternate countries and most imp increases our ability to influence things in our favor in the region. if only we had a low cost/qlty high volume weapons industry churning out stuff needed to sustain and fight civil wars, we could have become the new China in Africa. good nevertheless

India, Nigeria Sign MoU to Enhance Military Ties, Cooperation

Should offer them INSAS and Dhruvs and satellite building and launching [their Chinese built satellite was an EPIC fail]

should serve us well getting exploration blocks there
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by svinayak »

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... lous+!ndia
Incredulous !ndia
Brahma Chellaney

January 26, 2009
First Published: 23:09 IST(26/1/2009)
The Indian Republic is now a mature 59-year-old. Whether it is a world power in the making or just a large subcontinental State with global power pretensions is a moot question. What is beyond dispute is that India, home to more than one-sixth of the human race, continues to punch far below its weight. Internationally, it is a rule-taker, not a rule-maker.

Among India’s strengths is that it has a long, historical record of being a great power and of playing a mainstream, cooperative role in international relations. In 1820, at the advent of the Industrial Revolution, India and China alone made up nearly half of the world income. But by the time India emerged as a republic, its share of global GDP had shrunk to a mere 3.8 per cent.

Another one of India’s strengths is that it symbolises unity in diversity. It is the most diverse country in the world. Indeed, it is more linguistically, ethnically and religiously diverse than the whole of Europe. India is where old traditions go hand-in-hand with post-modernity. More importantly, India has shown that unlike the traditionally homogeneous societies of East Asia, a nation can manage and thrive on diversity.

A third strength is that democracy remains India’s greatest asset. India is the only real democracy in the vast contiguous arc from Jordan to Singapore. While the concepts of democratic freedoms and the rule of law are normally associated with the West, India can claim ancient traditions bestowing respect on such values. Basic freedoms for all formed the lynchpin of the rule of Emperor Ashoka in the 3rd century BC, who, as Nobel laureate Amartya Sen has pointed out, “did not exclude women and slaves as Aristotle did”.

Through forward-thinking and a dynamic foreign policy, India — the world’s most assimilative civilisation — can now truly play the role of a bridge between the East and the West, including a link between the competing demands of the developed and developing worlds. But its manifold weaknesses weigh it down. National security remains its most-glaring failing. Put simply, India has failed to heed the principal lesson from an inglorious history of having been raped, plundered and subjugated repeatedly over more than eight centuries — from the forays of Mahmud of Ghazni to the colonial interventions of European powers.

Nowhere is India’s frailty more apparent than on what historically has been its Achilles’ heel: internal security. Wedged in an arc of failing or authoritarian States that seek, in different ways, to unravel its multi-ethnic, pluralistic character, India confronts a tyranny of geography. As a result, it faces serious threats from virtually all directions. Just as India has been battered by growing trans-border terrorism because of its location next to the global epicentre of terror, its security has come under pressure from its geographical proximity to an overly ambitious China, which trained and armed Naga and Mizo guerrillas long before Pakistan fashioned proxy war as an instrument.

Yet, despite cross-border security challenges now emanating even from Bangladesh and Nepal, India manifests a triple deficit in key aspects of national power — a leadership deficit, a strategic foresight deficit, and a national-security planning deficit. Nothing illustrates this better than the manner in which it has handled the unparalleled Pakistani scripted amphibious terrorist assaults on its commercial capital two months ago. By firing only empty rhetoric and playing victim once again, it is inviting more Mumbai-style carnages.

The best description of today’s India comes from its tourism ad campaign’s themes, including its ‘Incredible India’ slogan. An ‘incredible’ country that has allowed its national security challenges to become so acute as to bring the very future of a united, inclusive India under a cloud. A real ‘land of the Buddha’ that has confronted a continuous Pakistan-waged unconventional war since the 1980s but has, till date, been unable to shed its pacifist blinkers, let alone initiate any concrete counter-action to stem a rising existential threat.

A true ‘land of adventure’ that has no articulated national security strategy, or a defined defence policy, or a declared counter-terrorism doctrine, yet is the world’s only large country dependent on other powers for meeting basic conventional-defence needs. Although the authoritative Grimmitt report of the Congressional Research Service lists India as the world’s No. 1 arms importer during the 2000-2007 period, this ‘incredible’ country has seen its military strength actually erode in the face of such a shopping binge, to the extent that its officials openly doubt that it has the capability to decisively defeat a near-bankrupt Pakistan. It’s clearly a ‘land of the tiger’ where ad hoc, personality-driven actions customarily trump institutionalised, holistic policy-making. A blithe ‘land of festivals’ where the bigger the state failure, the less the republic learns.

In sum, an ‘Incredible India’ that has all the talent, yet displays a paucity of rationality in policy approach. Welcome to the authentic India.

India is incredible in every sense. As if to underscore that, the slogan in the current multi-million-dollar international campaign has an exclamation mark instead of a capital ‘I’ in India. The blunt truth is that India cannot be understood through plain logic. With its spiritual heritage, India transcends earthly reasoning and rationality. Still, if it wishes to be a world power playing a role commensurate with its size, it will have to transform itself from an incredible to credible India.

Brahma Chellaney is a strategic affairs specialist.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

Op-Ed in Pioneer, 28 Jan 2009
EDITS | Wednesday, January 28, 2009 | Email | Print |


India’s honour stands eroded

JS Rajput

India is today widely perceived as a nation that does not know how to protect its citizens and national interests. Over the years, it has failed miserably in bringing terrorists to book. After the 26/11 Mumbai attack, the Government has repeatedly proclaimed, “All options are open.” The enemy is known from day one; it has been known for years. The ‘options’ are also known, but after each attack Indians are left counting their dead and injured. After each attack, India submits dossiers containing evidence to the sponsors of the attackers who, in total arrogance, throw these into the dustbin.

Whenever one interacts with young Indians in colleges and universities, one senses a sense of anger and anguish against India’s ‘helplessness’. There is no evidence of any serious effort to keep the young informed on national security concerns, make them aware of their own role in combating fundamentalism and terrorism. They need to know how to act against the spreading environment of mistrust and suspicion, which could be most dangerous to national interests.

The attack on Parliament House in 2001 had shocked the entire nation. But for the sacrifice of the alert security personnel, including a woman, India was in for a disaster of unimaginable magnitude. The perpetrators of the terrorist attacks are known not only to India but also to the world. After every attack, India complains to Pakistan and also to the global community. It did so in 2001, even earlier, and now after 26/11, practically every day one or the other Union Minister, the Prime Minister being no exception, blames Pakistan.

As those killed in the terrorist attack of 26/11 included citizens from Britain, the US, Japan, and several other countries, the global response initially was really pronounced and it appeared that Pakistan would be forced to change its approach and attitude. Since then, global support for India on the terror front has been gradually petering out. The US and now also the UK have given a clean chit to the ISI of Pakistan whose involvement in the Mumbai attack is evident to all.

It is not surprising that Pakistan should have responded in such a cussed manner. Those who are aware of the internal compulsions of Pakistan and the way civilian Governments of that country function under the aegis of the military were never in doubt that Pakistan’s response would remain the same as ever before. Time and again this assessment has been proved right. The NOIDA encounter of January 24 confirms that nothing has changed in the approach and attitude of Pakistan: Its policy of promoting cross-border terrorism remains firmly in place.

Have political compulsions forced the Government into a situation of uncertainty and demoralisation? There are known advocates of ‘peace-at-any-cost’ with Pakistan. They keep on preaching accordingly. One often wonders whether they do so on their own or under instructions from vested interests. One never finds them even remotely blaming Pakistan for the death and destruction that Indians, irrespective of their faith and religious identity, are suffering regularly.

For decades together, Pakistan has permitted and supported terrorist camps on its soil as well as in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir; both the US and India are aware of this fact. Yet, even after the Mumbai outrage and the overwhelming evidence of Pakistani involvement, the US has not come India’s aid in any manner. :((

As for the Government of the day, it could not gather sufficient courage to act on its own. It is indeed amazing that the UPA Government still expects the US to take up cudgels on India’s behalf. It expects Pakistan to be reasonable, truthful and logical. Apparently, political interests linked to the coming general election have played a significant role in the Union Government compromising vital issues of national dignity and honour.

India needs to rethink long-term strategies that will help the Government counter violence, terrorism and fundamentalism. While actions like changing the Home Minister or sacking a Chief Minister may have some calming effect, these do not constitute a lasting or long-term solution.

Unfortunately, there is no national discourse on preparing a long-term strategy. Creating public awareness and taking recourse to education and educational institutions deserves to be scrutinised seriously at the policy level and an implementation strategy evolved for the future. How long shall we go on complaining against Pakistan, Bangladesh and even Nepal?

Over the years, India has fully convinced its adversaries that it lacks the courage to retaliate. This perception of India has been strengthened by the Government’s response to 26/11: Daily declarations that evidence has been given to Pakistan have not had an iota of effect on Islamabad. Hence, nobody is really surprised that Pakistan should describe the contents of the dossier provided to it as ‘mere information’ and not ‘evidence’. While the leaders of Pakistan may be contradicting their own statements every day, their defiance of world opinion and their contempt for the truth remains constant. It has always been the same.

The Congress-led UPA regime will have to contest a general election in the coming months. The election may witness a pronounced public response to the Government’s callous handling of national concerns, especially on the terrorism front. But we have to look beyond the polls. The Government, irrespective of the party or alliance in power, needs to delineate both long and short-term solutions that conform to our national interests. This will be possible only if there is a sustained dialogue among the political parties. But such dialogue is nowhere on the agenda of the present Government.

The advent of the 21st century has strengthened the need for long-term formulations to rid the world of violence, bigotry and fundamentalism. The need for serious and systematic study and understanding of processes by which conflict can be resolved began earnestly in the mid-20th century, after World War II. The need for a sound and reliable base to improve human relationships was never felt so urgently as at present.

Concerned individuals and organisations have always felt the need for conflict avoidance after every suffering inflicted on fellow human. To be a real superpower, defence preparedness is necessary but not sufficient by itself. It is the morale of the people of the nation and the inner strength of its decision-makers that can command respect in the global community. Both of these stand eroded at this moment in our history.
This Republic Day the feeling of helplessness was very apparent among those I interacted. Previous ones folks stayed up all night to watch the parade on sqeaky connections. But not this time.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by brihaspati »

This Republic Day the feeling of helplessness was very apparent among those I interacted. Previous ones folks stayed up all night to watch the parade on sqeaky connections. But not this time.
Maybe it is time for the "elders", nearing the end of their professional lives, to return "home" and start laying the "foundations" of the house. Juniors can return in time to lay the bricks. :D
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

End of an era former President R. Venkatraman passes away in New delhi at age 98.

He was the President at crucial time in modern Indian history. He served India in many roles- Defence Minster, Home Minister, Vice President and President. As Defence Minster he was instrumental in getting the IGMP funded adequately.

RIP.

R. Venkatraman

I didnt know he defended the people of Indian origin in 1946.
brihaspati
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by brihaspati »

End of an era former President R. Venkatraman passes away in New delhi at age 98.

He was the President at crucial time in modern Indian history. He served India in many roles- Defence Minster, Home Minister and President. As Defence Minster he was instrumental in getting the IGMP funded adequately.

RIP.
Seconded here. A remarkably "clean" person. RIP.
Raju

Re: Indian Interests

Post by Raju »

http://indianmuslims.in/countering-paki ... ropaganda/

Indian muslim pov of Pakistan's ideological penetration on the Indian muslim.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ShauryaT »

X-Post.

What to do with the Problem of Pakistan by: Lt Gen (Retd) H C Dutta
In sum, India is facing a dangerous adversary and an enemy that we have never been able to match, making it imperative for us to insulate and protect ourselves against the fall-out of Pak blow up or against continuing raids and attacks from that quarter which are most likely to escalate in frequency and ferocity. The imperatives for us are: “Fortress India” including breaking of all contacts; ensuring effective defence and sealing of borders; build adequate defensive capability; create capacity for surgical strikes, and wherewithal to withstand a full scale war. Above all, we must protect our minorities from Pak machinations so that we can forge a united and motivated India. Above all, we must be steadfast in our resolve and be clear about the realities of the situation and not be deflected by half measures and self-serving advice from our global “sympathizers and friends”.
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

X-Posted...
Rudradev wrote:This thread has started me thinking about the nature of India's self-image, which thanks to our colonial history, is largely dictated by the three archetypes that centuries of psyops have contrived to shape and reinforce.

It should be noted that these three archetypes are not merely the foci of how we perceive ourselves when evaluating geopolitical circumstances and developing strategy. Psyops are a double-edged blade, honed by decades and centuries of mutual reinforcement... so that these archetypes have also shaped the lenses through which the originators of those psyops, themselves, perceive India and Indians!

Briefly, there are three major archetypes.

1) The brave, noble and faithful soldier of the Empire.

This is the archetype evolved over centuries of colonial rule when Indian troops provided manpower to British colonial expeditions. Of all the three archetypes it is the most flattering. It projects Indians (or at least, certain "martial races" among Indians) as doughty foot-soldiers, who when bravely led and strategically marshalled by Western commanders could defend the Empire's interests against its enemies from Benghazi to Shanghai.

This archetype was used to manipulate Indian royalty, and later (post 1885) the Macaulay-fashioned Indian political elite, to support British war efforts around the globe. The British regularly flattered their subservient Kshatriya Scions, Sikh Maharajas and Muslim Nawabs with military-sounding titles and medals... it became the fashion for such potentates to affect Western-style military uniforms and ribbons, even if they themselves were too fat or gouty to go to the bathroom unassisted. As long as they opened up their coffers and supplied manpower from among their citizenry, they were heaped with praise as brave defenders of the Empire's bastions.

The Pakistan army took this archetype to heart, as we all know, and strove to become simultaneously absolute rulers of Pakistan and faithful soldiers of the West. Only since 1990 have they sought to serve a new master in Islamism... and even in this effort, as the GUBO decade shows, their subscription to the "faithful soldier" archetype has undermined their whole-hearted participation. No wonder the West wants to keep Pakistan alive at all costs.

It should be noted that this archetype never envisioned the Indian rising any higher in the ranks than a private soldier, or perhaps an NCO. Those in command were always Western. Thus, even though the UN is never shy about asking India to commit its soldiers to peacekeeping missions, we hear about instances where blue-helmet troops from white European nations refuse to take orders from Indian officers. At another level, the challenge posed to this stereotype by white-collar Indian techies serves to aggravate the anti-outsourcing and anti-H1B outrage among white Americans today (in their mythology, Indians are supposed to drive cabs and pump gas, not write code). But I digress.

2) The Gunga-Din, or sufferer in a good cause.

This is the second stereotype of Indians created and reinforced by Western psyops since the colonial era. It is the image of an Indian who is fatalistic and superstitious, too weak of spirit to fight actively for any interest of his own, but with just enough strength of character to accept suffering on behalf of a "good" (read "Western") cause.

When, in order to finance their participation in the First World War, the British forced millions of Indian farmers to switch from subsistence to cash crops... they justified this genocide-by-starvation, in terms of the Gunga Din archetype. The Indians who died were too weak to fight wars, too primitive to forge a nation unto themselves, but suffered for the sake of the great and benevolent British Empire (starving to death so that its bills might be paid). Many "moderates" of the Indian National Congress at the time were content to accept such atrocities as Champaran, because they too accepted the Gunga Din archetype as justified.

Today, when the Hindoo is asked to "make concessions on Kashmir", to "restrain himself against Pakistan" in the face of terrorist attacks, to be passive cannon-fodder for the forces of Jihad so that the Pakistanis can concentrate on serving American interests along their Afghan border... it is the Gunga Din archetype (and self-image) that the Americans are appealing to.

In effect, we (India) are being asked to fulfill the Gunga Din archetype, sitting passively and taking it on the chin for the Western "team", so that Pakistan can be flattered and bribed to fulfill the Faithful Soldier archetype. It seems entirely natural to American strategists to expect that we willingly do this, because of these archetypes defining their views of the Indian subcontinent.

M.K. Gandhi was one visionary who turned this Gunga Din archetype on its head, to the astonishment of the British who thought that passive Indians would never suffer and die in any cause other than one dictated by their colonial masters. Today, the MoorkhMohan-Maino combine has brought our nation back to Gunga Din-hood with a vengeance.

3) The benighted heathen.

This is the third and least flattering (or most insulting, if you prefer) colonial archetype that defines the Indian image. It describes an essentially savage mass that is ruled by superstition and behaves no better than animals. Un-Christian, uncultured and unclean. This is the Indian archetype that was fostered by Bentinck's psyops about Thuggee and Suttee... and is continued today by the BBC and CNN psyops about Povertee , Untouchabilitee, Child Sex Slaveree and Slumdog Dharavee.

Christian missionary propaganda also uses this archetype liberally to justify their predatory conversion activities , connecting its allegations of hopeless, boundless misery with the "unsaved" nature of Hindoo souls.

The implication of this archetype is that India NEEDS to be subservient to the enlightened West if it is to survive at all. From this archetype stem all the most pessimistic and negative scenarios ever bandied about... Indians will perish in famine, Indians will never reach agricultural self-sufficiency, Indians are essentially poor and hopeless no matter what cosmetic developments may take place in their economy, the Indian state will fall apart because it is too weak to withstand internal divisions. Thus India needs a godfather... preferably a benevolent Western one... if we are to accomplish anything, or even to survive at all.

The Pakistanis have internalized this benighted-heathen archetype as the entirety of their image of India ... not realizing that in doing so, they are f*cking themselves, and entrenching their own vulnerability to being manipulated by Western psyops. Because for all their denial, the same archetype cuts equally in Pakistan's direction as well (now enhanced by images of gun-toting six year olds in Madrassas).


So... why am I bringing this Three Archetypes business up on this particular thread?

Because, fellow BRF-ites, I fear that we too are governed by these Three Archetypes far more than we should be. Even when discussing strategic options with regard to Pakistan and Afghanistan.

When we discuss our frustration at the current state of affairs, with MoorkhMohan showing "restraint" to Pakistan while our people are killed by terrorists, we are reacting to ongoing reinforcement of the Gunga Din archetype. Much of what we call "dhimmitude" is not merely "dhimmitude" to the ancestral memory of Islamic power... as our history shows, Islamic power on the subcontinent was all but extinguished by the Marathas and Sikhs through the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. Behind our compulsion to act as dhimmis with respect to Pakistan today, is a good measure of Gunga Din-hood (or vestigial dhimmitude to the West).

When we talk about deploying 120,000 troops to Afghanistan, we are effectively subscribing to the Faithful Soldier archetype. Yes, we imagine that we will be able to do this by maintaining supply lines via Iran, keeping our own independent command, choosing which regions of Afghanistan we will deploy in etc. etc. but this is all fantasy. We know fully well who sets the agenda for international intervention in Afghanistan today. Unkil will be in charge of dictating supply lines, deployments, doctrine, ROE, and for that matter making all political decisions at all levels. We will receive a lot of flattery, as our be-ribboned Maharajas did during the British days, but ultimately we will be supplying the faithful soldiers to accomplish the strategy of the West.

Lastly the benighted Indian archetype, which I think is finding its outlet on the :(( :(( of this thread. Oh, look at us, if Unkil gets defeated by Taliban and Pakistan what will we do? Without the West to protect us how will we survive? This is the *real* fear behind all the lame-brained theorizing that "if the Islamists win in Afghanistan/Iraq and America loses, Jihad will receive a shot in the arm for having defeated a superpower".

We have always fought the Jihadis ourselves and always defeated the Jihadis ourselves... and yet, we have this overarching fear of extinction if Unkil abandons his anti-Jihadi cause (as if that cause ever had anything to do with our own).

Friends, I can think of only three instances in the past century where Indian civilian leadership thought out of the box and broke through the perimeter of self-image (and outsiders' expectations) defined by these three archetypes.

One was M.K. Gandhi, turning the Gunga Din's capacity to absorb suffering into a force for political accomplishment against the colonial masters, such as nobody could have imagined.

The second was Indira Gandhi showing the world that we were nobody else's Faithful Soldiers, during the Bangladesh war. Our capacity was not limited to serving in the ranks of an army commanded by others. We could determine our own geopolitical interests, fashion our own military strategy to achieve them, and command our own troops towards the swift and decisive execution of that strategy.

The third was the A.B. Vajpayee government conducting the 1998 nuclear tests (though perhaps some credit should go to PVNR for making the tests possible). The Benighted Indian showed that he was as capable of protecting himself, and the integrity of his nation, as any of his former superiors. No wonder the enraged West responded with reams of psyops about how "India had ignored its millions of starving benighted heathens to build a nuclear bomb", etc.

These instances changed the rules of the game with respect to the world's treatment of India. They were tremendously effective, not only because our leaders managed to extend themselves beyond the three-archetype perimeter... but because the world itself had become so ingrained with a view of India and Indians defined by the three-archetype perimeter. They were utterly shocked, dumbfounded and clueless how to react when we "broke the mold". The initiative was entirely in our hands, against far more powerful adversaries.

And yet, apart from these exceptions, the bulk of our policymaking (and even the patterns of our political thought process) seem dictated by the above three archetypes. We cannot afford this.

Confirming to the Faithful Soldier archetype (sending 120,000 troops to join NATO in Afghanistan) is no solution to our frustration with the Gunga Din archetype (restraint in the face of Pakistani terrorism, peace talks on Kashmir). Nor should we be compelled to follow either of these ultimately Unkil-serving strategies by the blackmail of the Benighted Indian archetype ("nuclear flashpoint" propaganda, the Congress government's media assault on our armed forces, the Malegaon witch-hunts, or fear that Unkil pulling out of Afghanistan will make Jihad invincible).

Let's reject the perimeter defined by ALL these three archetypes, and think out of the box. If Unkil is defeated by the Pakis and Afghans... isn't it possible that this eventuality may present an opportunity, rather than a threat? Let's start from there.
All these are images of India made by the "other".

What is the image of India in Indian imagination?
Raju

Re: Indian Interests

Post by Raju »

the land of dharma, as opposed to the west the land of danava and unclean spirits.
ShauryaT
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote: All these are images of India made by the "other".

What is the image of India in Indian imagination?
If one takes the veil off, only one single image. A land of Aryans, under dharmic law - with a core commitment to act in the interest of Dharma at all times.

Although Rudradev, may categorize me as an idealistic romanticist, completely divorced from reality :)
Prem
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Prem »

ShauryaT wrote:
ramana wrote: All these are images of India made by the "other".

What is the image of India in Indian imagination?
If one takes the veil off, only one single image. A land of Aryans, under dharmic law - with a core commitment to act in the interest of Dharma at all times.

Although Rudradev, may categorize me as an idealistic romanticist, completely divorced from reality :)
Shaurya, majority of Indians i know agree to this identity.Its is precisely the reason PS crowd fear the resurgance as they loose their relevance as Dharma is where Indians draw line on accommodation . This is what worth enjoying, protecting , live or die for .
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by vsudhir »

Ajatashatru,

While I greatly admire your passion, all this talk of India being at some top etc of some world order is both premature and gun jumpy-ish. Some things ought to be left unsaid. Lots of things can go wrong with Asia even now, besides.

In any case, India is at least a generation away from being in a position where it can articulate an agenda of serious power projection. Its not our ishtyle to throw our weight around, despite weighing one-sixth of humanity.
Prem
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by Prem »

Is India Really A Secular State?
http://indianmuslims.in/is-india-really ... ment-53573

Why are Muslims the victims?
1. The creation of Pakistan as a homeland for the subcontinent’s Muslims in 1947 and then the aggressive/militant actions of Pakistan against India. In the last 25 years the random terrorist attacks on civilians in India. All this has kept the pot boiling against Indian Muslims and the reaction against Muslims continuing. In the decade preceding 1947 the Muslim League campaign of th “Two Nation” ideology did much to damage Hindu-Muslim relations for a long time to come among the Hindus.

2. Total silence from 53 Muslim countries (other than Pakistan) to say even one word against any of the worst oppression and harassment of masses of Muslims and their institutions in 60 years. Many of the energy rich Muslim countries have continued to supply oil/gas at preferential terms to India and have continued to give lucrative contracts to Indian companies. Thus Indian Hindus are quite sure that Indian Muslims have no international sympathizers ( Ummah Threat against India )

3. The resurgence of religion based politics initiated by BJP in the early 1980s; other groups picked up on it and a sort of competition began among them to become more aggressive against Muslims.
sunilUpa
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by sunilUpa »

This may not be the right thread for this post, but watch 'What the Ancients knew' - India on the Science channel.
ShauryaT
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ShauryaT »

Pragati: Feb 2009


Sorry for the formatting folks, this is about what i could manage.
Contents
PERSPECTIVE
2 MacArthur should return
Only an international intervention can transform Pakistan

Nitin Pai
4 Pakistan 2020
Nine alternative futures

K Subrahmanyam, Pakistan Planning Commission, United States
National Intelligence Council, Sohail Inayatullah, MD Nalapat,
Nadeem Ul Haque, Stephen P Cohen, Rohit Pradhan & Harsh
Gupta and R Vaidyanathan
FILTER
9 Essential readings of the month


IN DEPTH
10
The assembly line of international terrorism

Why the threat from Jamaat-ud-Dawa is set to rise
Wilson John
PERSPECTIVE
14
Surgeries are messy

Surgical strikes are a conceptual fallacy and not a prudent

option

Srinath Raghavan & Rudra Chaudhuri
16 Kind words and guns
Effective diplomacy needs credible military capacity

Sushant K Singh
17 Allies, not friends
The US and Pakistan will need to recast their awkward
relationship

Dhruva Jaishankar

19 A flawed sense of security
The Saudi-Pakistan relationship, underpinned by oppor
tunistic security interests, has run its course

Bernard Haykel
21 New dynamics of an all weather friendship

China’s influence in Islamabad has been subordinated to


US priorities in the region

Zorawar Daulet Singh
23
Europe’s dilemma

Europe can do little in solving Pakistan’s problem

Richard Gowan
ramana
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Re: Indian Interests

Post by ramana »

X-posted..

Looks like Tech Forum is seeing more posts on strategic nature!
Yugandhar wrote:Talk by Shiv Shankar Menon
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... enon&sid=1
At their most general, the goals of India's foreign policy are no different from those of other countries – we seek peace and prosperity, or security and development. Our foreign policy seeks to encourage and create an external environment that furthers these goals.
Today, it seems that we may be on the cusp of a historic and fundamental change in the nature of the world situation. Looking at the world from India, it often seems that we are witness to the collapse of the Westphalian state system and a redistribution in the global balance of power, leading to the rise of major new powers and forces. The twin processes of the world economic crisis and economic inter-dependence have resulted in a situation where no power is insulated from global developments
Uncertainty in the international system has grown exponentially and rapidly. The only certainty is that the global landscape that emerges from the economic and financial crisis will be vastly different from what obtains today.

b]The economic crisis itself is a consequence of unsustainable imbalances in the global economy, of prolonged fiscal and trade deficits in certain countries matched by fiscal surpluses and astronomical foreign exchange surpluses in other countries. As of now it is impossible to say that these imbalances will indeed be corrected, or that the underlying pattern of savings and consumption which led to the crisis will be successfully altered. Ironically, stimulus packages will actually push economies away from the direction of basic adjustment required though they may be a temporary palliative. Exchange rate adjustments, (a higher Yuan or a lower dollar), would devalue assets and reserves that are needed to overcome the crisis A successful readjustment of the fundamentals of the global economy would require an unprecedented level of coordination and understanding between several major powers that has never been achieved before in history, except when the balance of power was totally skewed by the effects of a twenty year crisis followed by a world war.[[/b]

It seems likely that the present economic crisis will result in a much flatter distribution of power, or a more even balance of power, among the major actors on the global stage. Interdependence brought about by globalization imposes limits beyond which tensions among the major powers cannot escalate. As uncertainty in the system rises, each of the major powers is now following hedging strategies abroad while attempting to minimize the effects of the crisis on its own economy.

Equally, no one power can hope to solve issues by itself, no matter how powerful it is. What is in fact happening, (politically in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, and economically in the meetings of G-20 leaders and the G-8 plus G-5), is that major powers are coming together to form coalitions to deal with issues where they have a convergence of interests, despite differences on other issues or in broader approach. In other words, what we see is the emergence of a global order marked by the preponderance of several major powers where both cooperation and competition among them are intense. The result is a de-hyphenation of relationships with each other, of each major power engaging with and competing with all the others, in a situation that affords the powers increased strategic space but lessened capacity to create outcomes.
For India the most graphic recent instances were the bombing of our Embassy in Kabul on July 7, 2008 and the Mumbai attacks of 26 November 2008. In each case the perpetrators planned, trained and launched their attacks from Pakistan, and the organizers were and remain clients and creations of the ISI. Two months after the Mumbai attacks, and one month after we presented a dossier of evidence linking the attacks to elements in Pakistan, we still await a response from the Pakistani authorities, and prevarication continues.

Atleast the babus are thinking and not just watching.
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