Discussion on Indian Special Forces

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 26 Jan 2009 10:47

HAPPY REPUBLIC DAY 2009
since this year the army's PARA REGIMENT has been shown for the first time in the parade,it was interesting to see them carrying the TAVOR-21 rifles,,,,

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Jan 2009 11:20

saptarishi,

Para regiments march in every republic day...perhaps you are referring to the middle eastern hop?

ticky · Post by **ticky** » 26 Jan 2009 11:46

Code: Select all

perhaps you are referring to the middle eastern hop

They have done that last year too

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Jan 2009 13:46

Hmm, found the names pretty easily. But there are only two I found.

Hav Ram Chandra 12 Aug 1989 in Punjab, 51 SAG
Hav Ram Shankar Singh 29 Apr 1985 Punjab, 51 SAG

Akshardham was ofcourse two casualities (and not one)
Subedar Suresh Chandra Yadav (Ashok Chakra)
Commando Surjan Singh (Kirti Chakra)

Jagan ji, from what i could see in the show where the plaque was shown, most of the martyrs wer from 13 SRG and thats what surprised me. I never recollect anyone of the SRG being martyred in any report.

They have done that last year too

The Paras seemed to be still sporting the old camo !!!

I would have thought that the "elites" get hold of the new stuff,even the camo.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jan 2009 18:10

Raja Bose wrote:saptarishi,

Para regiments march in every republic day...perhaps you are referring to the middle eastern hop?

Raja, did they always march ?
I remember one occasion when they drove away on a couple of jeeps, 4 on each IIRC.
anyone else remembers it ?

Rampy · Post by **Rampy** » 26 Jan 2009 19:13

Rahul M wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:saptarishi,

I remember one occasion when they drove away on a couple of jeeps, 4 on each IIRC.
anyone else remembers it ?

if I remember correctly, during 90's there used to be marching contingent of Para with complete backpack etc.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 26 Jan 2009 20:37

All of you right

The paras have been there in jeeps, marching , with smocks, with backpacks and now with Tavor and the speed march

.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Jan 2009 21:49

Surya wrote:All of you right

The paras have been there in jeeps, marching , with smocks, with backpacks and now with Tavor and the speed march
.

some of the light infantry regiments have always had a faster march speed, are the para's amongst them? some gorkha's come to mind

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Jan 2009 23:09

For the gypsy mounted contingent of the Para's

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... /Para4.jpg

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 26 Jan 2009 23:10

Didnt find the relevant thread so posting here. One thing surely that was amiss after the Mumbai siege was a joint press conference involving Mumbai police, NSG, Marcos and the Army GOC; just to outline the roles each played and to build the picture about the rescue ops right from start to finish.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 26 Jan 2009 23:46

but if i am not mistaking tavor is seen for the first time

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 27 Jan 2009 00:02

Do Not know if this has been Posted Before..

But here is some raw CNN Footage of MARCOS/Army SF going into the Taj. Notice BPJ, PASGT Helmets, MP-5s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR-KfP_7nnk

However also notice the Fat Babu on his Cellphone in the middle of it all. Simply put our First Responders just didnt have the profesionalism in a CT/HRT operation. How the hell did that guy get inside the perimeter security?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Jan 2009 05:55

^^^ rkhanna, does not look like the MARCOS from the equipment and camo though the footage is too grainy. Looks more like regular army chaps (again, no info pointed out whether Ghataks were involved or not) and Mumbai police plus a fat yindoo babu as bait.

George J · Post by **George J** » 27 Jan 2009 08:15

FINALLY !!! This was the footage posted by CNN-IBN from inside the Taj. These were taken by their "Citizen Journalist" who captured these guys on his cellphone. They even interviewed this guy (forgot his name, I posted it on the Mumbai Attack thread on Hot Air).

These are the MARCOS assisted by Mumbai Police and Taj Employees (white) engaging the terrorist before the NSG arrived. I would kill to get a time stamp on this video.

Rest:
Is there ANY sort of pic which shows NSG guys dressed in anything other than black? We have pics of MARCOS both in black and in camo but the NSG have only been seen in black.

RB:
We have already been through this, these were no Army SF unit (see MH Chief Sec response to India Today). MARCOS were on-site by midnight and they happened to be wearing camo and they had PASGT helmets.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 27 Jan 2009 10:23

Rahul M wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:saptarishi,

Para regiments march in every republic day...perhaps you are referring to the middle eastern hop?
Raja, did they always march ?
I remember one occasion when they drove away on a couple of jeeps, 4 on each IIRC.
anyone else remembers it ?

If I remember correctly, they were the 10 Para Cdos to indicate Long Range Desert Patrol.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Jan 2009 11:10

GJ,

There was one pic in the MARCOS+NSG Pictures thread (which hopefully has been archived) showing a guy in camo leading a hit of NSG guys (iirc in Nariman house). Apart from that haven't seen any pics or footage of NSG guys in anything but black.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Jan 2009 11:15

RayC wrote: If I remember correctly, they were the 10 Para Cdos to indicate Long Range Desert Patrol.

They were also featured in Mayurica Biswas's 'Line of Duty' documentary series on Indian SF...it is available on YouTube (must see for those who haven't seen the episodes yet!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNMJf53nb2o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IPL2rOjl_U

The one on MARCOS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neO1KLN9 ... re=related

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Jan 2009 11:45

saptarishi wrote:but if i am not mistaking tavor is seen for the first time

nope. check the earlier pages of the misc pics thread.

two soldiers were seen carrying tavors in kashmir. there was a long discussion about it so you shouldn't miss it.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 27 Jan 2009 12:31

^^^iirc those were SFF(Special Group)? Had a tall Punjabi/UP bhaiyya in the pics.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jan 2009 13:26

there is a upcoming Natgeo series called Mission Navy. lots of
good footage in the advert.

some awesome jmsdf type "line of steel" type pix here. every one
is worth saving.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... p?t=146702

http://www.natgeotv.co.in/missionnavy/

like the Ramans, the marcos do attack in teams of three!

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Jan 2009 09:23

Q to the gurus afetr watching the shows on NSG in CNN-IBN and Times NOW:

Are the bomb data center personnel of the NSG also commandos or are they "brainy" experts deputed to NSG with minimal commando training since they are never needed to participate in actual commando operations?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 07 Feb 2009 16:13

Are the bomb data center personnel of the NSG also commandos or are they "brainy" experts deputed to NSG with minimal commando training since they are never needed to participate in actual commando operations?

I don't know about bomb data center personnel but if they also double up as a bomb disposal squad it should be trained to some level.Maybe not as rigorously as SAG but certainly able to operate under most demanding of circumstances.For example they might need to disarm an explosive device under fire.

For an analogy US Navy EOD is capable of operating with Navy Seals.They are capable of undertaking parachute operations as well as dive operations.

So I guess the explosive guys in NSG should also be trained to commando levels(atleast some of them).Just a guess though.

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 07 Feb 2009 18:33

darshhan wrote:
So I guess the explosive guys in NSG should also be trained to commando levels(atleast some of them).Just a guess though.[/quote]

dear poster,
please avoide "guessing"
BRF forums should allow more bandwidth to people who know facts,
(for example posts with concrete reference, news item, or interesting tidbit should be the ONLY thing posted), personal opinion, guesswork, and wild predictions etc should be reserved for chai-biskoot session at ram-bharose-hindu-hotel. this forum is not such a venue.

The newbies will get away with such posts once in a while, but when the mods wake up, newbies will go in for severe flogging
Thank you

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 07 Feb 2009 19:26

dear poster,
please avoide "guessing"
BRF forums should allow more bandwidth to people who know facts,
(for example posts with concrete reference, news item, or interesting tidbit should be the ONLY thing posted), personal opinion, guesswork, and wild predictions etc should be reserved for chai-biskoot session at ram-bharose-hindu-hotel. this forum is not such a venue.

The newbies will get away with such posts once in a while, but when the mods wake up, newbies will go in for severe flogging
Thank you

1.Well guess here means educated guess.You didn't see the analogy that I gave(US Navy EOD and SEALs)

2.I checked on the forum guidelines , FAQs and First post on this thread by the author(which should set the tone of the thread).No where it is written that you cannot make an educated guess.

3.If moderators think that my post does not contribute in any way then they can delete my post.

4.I think that the problem originated because I used the word "guess".

5.Lastly,no hard feelings.Feel free to criticize me.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 07 Feb 2009 19:48

wikipedia entry on US navy eod

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_EOD

I was talking about how NSG explosives detachment could be something like this.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Feb 2009 19:49

darshan,
as you well know a forum like this exists for gainful discussions, either exchange of facts or opinions based on facts. else it is simply hot air.

let's check your post for the signs then :
red : lack of knowledge
blue : uninformed guess
brown : unqualified advice
green : informed/reasonable guess
black : unnecessary information
(*)

I don't know about bomb data center personnel but if they also double up as a bomb disposal squad it should be trained to some level.
Maybe not as rigorously as SAG but certainly able to operate under most demanding of circumstances.For example they might need to disarm an explosive device under fire.

For an analogy US Navy EOD is capable of operating with Navy Seals.They are capable of undertaking parachute operations as well as dive operations.

So I guess the explosive guys in NSG should also be trained to commando levels(atleast some of them).

now, do tell me if people gained anything by reading your post ?
won't it have been better to opine on a more substantial factual basis ?

since we know zilch about the training of bomb squad personnel suggesting training scenarios to them does sound very arrogant to say the least and quite a bit naive and foolish.
sorry if that sounds harsh.

just an idea, since your whole argument of giving advice to NSG (

) rests on a chain of wild guesses, IMHO it might have been better to altogether avoid them in this instance.

JMT.

others, extremely sorry for the multi-coloured post.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 07 Feb 2009 19:58

hey Rahul go ahead delete it.

By the way I am not arrogant.I am sorry if I sounded so.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 07 Feb 2009 20:09

Guys I had a question about language training of our special forces.Do our special forces undergo training in languages that are being used in hostile countries

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Feb 2009 15:57

NSG commando Rajbir Lamba (who was with Major Unnikrishnan) gives a pretty candid account of what went on. Must watch. After watching it I am even more impressed with what the NSG accomplished in the dire circumstances, regardless of what the typical internet SAS/Delta fanboy spouts coz this was no Op Nimrod with amateurs as hostages takers and HRT having days to train and plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmbWa89b ... re=related

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 12 Feb 2009 13:41

LiveFist Photos: Special Forces at Aero India 2009

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Feb 2009 22:57

X-posted...

Armed forces reeject plan for NSG hubs

Armed forces blow holes in Govt plan for NSG hubs across India

Rahul Datta | New Delhi

The armed forces are not impressed with the Government’s proposal to set up NSG hubs across the country. They have conveyed to the Union Home Ministry that there was no need for such facilities in cities where Special Forces were already deployed. Sources said the armed forces have said that Special Forces jawans were well equipped and trained to deal with any Mumbai-like emergency situation.

The armed forces conveyed this to the Home Ministry during regular meetings in the wake of the Mumbai terror attacks in November last year. Explaining the rationale behind this suggestion, they said the setting up of the NSG hubs would take time and money and, in the interim, the Special Forces could shoulder the responsibility of dealing with such incidents.

In fact, the whole idea behind this proposal was to mesh the existing resources of the armed forces to meet any exigency posing threat to internal security without any red tape and well-defined standard operating procedures and chain of command, they said.

Giving instances, they said the Special Forces were deployed in Jammu & Kashmir and the north-east and in case of a Mumbai-type emergency, they could be pressed into service in their area of operation. The Special Forces commandos were also trained in hostage rescue, breaking into buildings and conducting operations on hostile terrain.

These skills were imparted besides their primary role of destroying strategic targets behind enemy lines and crippling the war-waging potential of the adversary by crippling his logistics lines by blowing up bridges, ammunition depots, air fields and communication systems, they said.

Bangalore was another major centre where there was little need for setting up a NSG hub as the airborne troops or paratroops were trained at the Parachute School there. The campus imparted training in all aspects of commando-style operations, including para-jumping with full load of weapons and ammunition, and they could respond to any eventuality in and around the city and in south India in the shortest possible time.

Similarly, Agra was another major centre for training of paratroopers and the trained professionals could be rushed to any crisis point all over UP and central India. In fact, they maintained that there was little need for the NSG at Mumbai also because the Navy's training school for Marine Commandos (MARCOS) was located near the city. The MARCOS were the first to engage the terrorists holed up inside the Taj Hotel on November 26 till the time the NSG commandos arrived from Delhi after a couple of hours.

Sources said the creation of infrastructure for the hubs required funds and time and ad hoc deployments would not serve any purpose.

Elaborating upon this aspect, they said the commandos had to undergo rigorous training to retain that crucial edge over the adversary and the drill had to go on throughout the year. Therefore, the hubs had to have all these training facilities or else the commandos would not be able to maintain peak physical condition and fighting tactics, sources said.

Incidentally, the training school for the Special Forces is located in Nahan near Chandigarh with state-of-the-art facilities, which were comparable to those available in the US, Israel and some other countries. These facilities included firing ranges for highly sophisticated weapons, diving, physical and psychological conditioning and training in the use of communication systems, including satellite-based equipment.

Highlighting the standard of the school and profile of the elite force, sources said the rejection rate was more than 90 per cent as most officers and men who wished to join the Special Forces could not cope with the harsh training. They also said the Indian Special Forces commandos, who took part in the joint exercises with their counterparts in the US and UK, were found to extremely talented and skilful and came out with top honours in the last four-five years.

As regards to the profile of the NSG and the Special Forces, they said the officers and men drawn from the Army and para-military forces served a stipulated number of years in the NSG.

Admitting the fact that the selection process in the NSG for these volunteers was very gruelling, sources, however, said the soldiers served their lifetime in the Special Forces; thereby leading to a bond and imbibing the ethos of the regiment.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Feb 2009 23:24

Giving instances, they said the Special Forces were deployed in Jammu & Kashmir and the north-east and in case of a Mumbai-type emergency, they could be pressed into service in their area of operation. The Special Forces commandos were also trained in hostage rescue, breaking into buildings and conducting operations on hostile terrain.

IMO this is stupid. Turning Urban CT/HRT over the Special Forces would be a bad idea. it is not their primary mission to begin with. While Letting MARCOS,etc being first responders to contain a situation is OK the ultimate burden MUST fall on the NSG. But i guess setting up Hubs or state level dedicated SWAT type units would be expensive and time consuming.

ANYWAYS..

Another pic of SF deployed at AeroIndia

GARUD? Army SF seem to be carrying TAVORs however doing the GARUDS have black berets?

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 12 Feb 2009 23:39

As per the BR report on the Garuds, they were armed with the INSAS. Also they had black berets and a shoulder patch mentioning Garud. All the pics from Aero India 2009 show a common shoulder patch showing 'Special Forces'. Is that a new trend?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 12 Feb 2009 23:57

^^^ Army SF just have the SF Tab while Garud operators seem to have both the SF tab and the Garud Insignia on thier Arms.

A guide to the Next Generation of SOF Equipment.

http://armada.ch/08-6/complete_08-6.pdf

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 13 Feb 2009 00:06

The second Pic from Shiv Aroors post has two guys. One is in camo with the Tavor. The other is in olive uniform but has the special forces patch. Any reasons for the difference?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 13 Feb 2009 00:10

The second Pic from Shiv Aroors post has two guys. One is in camo with the Tavor. The other is in olive uniform but has the special forces patch. Any reasons for the difference?

One is operational (in DPM) the other is probably a Supervising Officer in Dress Uniform.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Feb 2009 12:16

rkhanna wrote:
The second Pic from Shiv Aroors post has two guys. One is in camo with the Tavor. The other is in olive uniform but has the special forces patch. Any reasons for the difference?
One is operational (in DPM) the other is probably a Supervising Officer in Dress Uniform.

The BDU wearing grunts are IAF garuds ... the uniformed guy is a IA Para (SF) who just happens to be around.

More garud glory visible at Aeroindia! grrr......

INSAS LMG and AR looks good!

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 14 Feb 2009 13:11

Shouldn't their faces be blurred in the photos?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 14 Feb 2009 14:44

The BDU wearing grunts are IAF garuds ... the uniformed guy is a IA Para (SF) who just happens to be around.

THe Guys with the TAVOR have different Kit though from the Garuds.. Also they are only Sporting SF tabs while Garud are Sporting SF + Garud Insignia on thier arms.

IMO both Army SF and IAF Garuds are here.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Feb 2009 18:16