Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Jan 2009 08:35

chankian is the paki spelling for chanakyan.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Jan 2009 10:53

Rahul M wrote:chankian is the paki spelling for chanakyan.

and now dont forget earth-e-shaster

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 21 Jan 2009 12:42

Rahul M wrote:chankian is the paki spelling for chanakyan.

what about OT ?

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 21 Jan 2009 13:07

Off Topic

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 21 Jan 2009 15:08

I lost my trainee tag. Is it because I crossed 100 posts? What is the threshold to get BR Oldie tag?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Jan 2009 09:45

Can you quit the army after serving for 12 years ?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Jan 2009 10:08

You can provided the Army allows you.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Jan 2009 10:57

Kiran bhaiyya, Oldie tag is not that easy to attain. For that you have to do severe penance involving dry grass, multiple goats and activity with certain mullahs in a certain kave kamplex.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Jan 2009 12:42

RayC wrote:You can provided the Army allows you.

What happened in 1984 ? Were sikhs allowed to quit back then ? Do they get pension and other benefits ?

Also under what circumstances does the army allow you to quit ? Isn't it mandatory 20 year contract ?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Jan 2009 12:53

Nothing happened in 1984.

Some were court martialled and some were sent to other units and so on.

If you marry a foreigner without sanction, you are asked to quit or if you state you want to join politics or maybe you just state that you don't want to serve owing to A, B or C reason that is justifiable and so on.

It must be understood that the country spends BIG money in training you and so you better pay back before taking the Army service as a lark!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Jan 2009 13:01

RayC wrote:Nothing happened in 1984.

So you have to serve minimum 20 years to retire right?

Sikhs weren't allowed to quit the armed forces if they didn't want to serve? Weren't there huge number of deserters back then?

I was reading something about operation bluestar and came across this http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 125492.cms

hence the questions.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 23 Jan 2009 15:28

20 years for pension

Yes, there were deserters.

The situation was very emotive!

What exactly is your angle? What is that you wish to ask? Be upfront!

Bush has gone and so quit beating about the Bush!

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 23 Jan 2009 18:50

Isnt it 11 or 14 years for a Jawan? (for pension qualification)?
Or atleast did it used to be 11 or 14?

sharma.abhinav · Post by **sharma.abhinav** » 23 Jan 2009 18:53

Sorry moderators. Please delete the new post i have created by mistake. I wanted to post that as a reply on the LCA thread but mistakingly created a new thread sorry.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Jan 2009 23:58

RayC wrote: What exactly is your angle? What is that you wish to ask? Be upfront!
Bush has gone and so quit beating about the Bush!

I am pretty upfront. I am reading a book and trying to understand a few things.

a. When is the earliest you can quit in Indian army and not jeopardize your benefits.
b. Does this hold true for special situations like what happened in 1984. if not how were the people who deserted treated ?
I see lots of them immigrated to Canada. I just trying to understand things surrounding this. That is all. There is no Angle, just curiosity.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Jan 2009 16:48

Jagan wrote:Isnt it 11 or 14 years for a Jawan? (for pension qualification)?
Or atleast did it used to be 11 or 14?

Spoke to a jawan working as a taxi operator recently. He said its 17 years.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 24 Jan 2009 20:40

okay - thanks. so someone who enrolls at 18 years old can get out at 35 or 36 with a pension if he wants to

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 25 Jan 2009 00:19

Thanks aditya, is it different for non officer category and officers ?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Jan 2009 22:59

Jagan, AFAIK jawans can get recruited at an even lower age of 16 or so.

Cybaru, no idea about officers. IIRC ACM Kitcha commented that pilots could leave the service after 21 years of service.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 25 Jan 2009 23:58

Aditya G wrote:Jagan, AFAIK jawans can get recruited at an even lower age of 16 or so.

I would agree but some recent UN resolutions about 'child soldiers' resulted in IA raising the limit to 18 or something like that. the IA was definitely in some quandary with that rule.

suman · Post by **suman** » 27 Jan 2009 05:03

What is S-Maneuver in a missile ?Is it really important in a missile?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 27 Jan 2009 15:04

Jagan wrote:Isnt it 11 or 14 years for a Jawan? (for pension qualification)?

Have a good friend who is an ex-IAF Sergeant. Joined as an Airman (after completing his PUC, so should be around 18 years at that time). He got out after 13 years on "compassionate grounds". He said his old parents are in our native village, and his sisters are married off (which was all quite true). The IAF did check up with the local police station, and then allowed my friend to retire with the pension and benefits. Also he had got a Kerala Govt. job as a village officer, and so he just moved over to the state service (which has another pension plan when he retires)

.

I had another friend now in the Gelf. He wanted to move out of the Air Force (was a Corporal) even if he lost his pensions etc. He had to actually create a fight scene, the warrant officer was forced to note down the complaint, a court of enquiry was done and he was given a sort of "dishonorable discharge". He does not get any pensions or other benefits.

I would agree but some recent UN resolutions about 'child soldiers' resulted in IA raising the limit to 18 or something like that. the IA was definitely in some quandary with that rule.

I think IA over-came this. My understanding is that recruitment happens at 17 1/2 years now, and the six months the recruits are not given any weapon training (so they are not child soldiers). That is only done after 6 months, when the recruits are just 18.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 27 Jan 2009 16:11

x-posting from R-day photos thread

Sachin wrote:
K Mehta wrote:While even the NCC cadets marched with SLRs, the great Delhi police paraded with .303s. All other para-mil forces had higher caliber weapons.
I feel this is some sort of a tradition within the Delhi police. Ever since I have started watching the R.D Parade, I have observed Delhi Police marching with their .303 rifles (and bayonets fixed on it). And also if you notice Delhi Police carries the rifle in Kandhe Shastr (slope arms) which again is totally out-of-use in the Army. We NCC cadets had a tough time practising drill with the Kerala Police teams. Their drill was much quicker, even though they had some extra parade commands (basically slope arms and order arms, which NCC cadets never had).

What are these different parade arms postures?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 27 Jan 2009 23:05

K Mehta wrote: Sachin
please elaborate in the newbie thread.

The weapon drill commands:-
1. Slope Arms (Kandhe Shastr): The rifle is placed on the left shoulder, butt would be held in the left arm and the rifle essentially would be in a "sloped" position. The best way to carry a .303 rifle.

2. Order Arms (Bazu Shastr): The rifle is placed close to the right side of the body, and the rifle butt would be touching the ground. The back portion of the rifle butt, would be in line with the right leg boot's heel. This is used when the troops are standing in attention.

3. Present Arms (Salami Shastr): The rifle is picked up and held in vertical in front of the soldier's body. The right leg, is placed at an angle behind the left leg. In more simple terms, this drill is like thrusting a rifle on the face and telling the VIP/dignitory - "see have a look at my rifle".

4. Side Arms (Bagal Shastr): This is more used in Army or forces which uses SLRs. Here the rifle is held between the right side of the body and the right hand. The barrel would be held tightly in the gap between a person's chest and his arms. The right palm would be gripping the rifle at some point near the trigger (and trigger guard).

By "tradition" I meant that Delhi Police still prefers the .303 SMLE rifles when doing march pasts/parades. And that for operational purposes they would have better weapons like AKs, Sten Guns etc. etc. Many state police forces still heavily rely on .303 rifles and their arms drill are more suited for .303 rifles (which is more longer, and also do not have stuff like long magazines jutting out). Hence the state police still uses - "Order Arms (rifle butt on the ground).... Slope Arms.. (rifle gets picked up and placed in a slope on the left hand)... Present Arms (Present Arms)" routine. The long .303 rifle looks good when carried in this fashion, and it is also a comfortable position for the holder when marching for a long time.

We as NCC cadets had .303 rifles (our unit only got SLRs a couple of years back) but were trained by Army NCOs and the drill was different. We only had "bazu shast.." (order arms) and "bagal shastr" (side arms). When "Salami Shastr" was given our rifle butts were on the ground, and we bring it to the Present Arms position in a 3 step drill. Same with the "Bazu Shastr" (order arms), the rifle butt comes back to the ground in 3 steps. What was essentially taught to us was the Army weapon drill (which was modelled for SLRs and other shorter rifles).

The tough time: In our town the police men had command over the parade. They had atleast 3 platoons and the band. The word of commands would be in English. The police parade commander would shout out "Parade Slope Arms", and the police men would get their rifles on the "slope arms". We NCC cadets had to ignore this command. The next command would be "Parade Present Arms". The police have a two step process to reach the "Present Arms" position, while we (we had to pick up the rifle from the ground level) had a 3 step process. The police would finish the drill quicker, and the police band would have started the first notes of the "General Salute". And when returning to order arms, we would finish the drill straight away. But for the police it would be "slope arms... order arms". Finally we all worked out the solution that, when the command "Present Arms" is given, the police men would wait for 2-3 seconds at the first step of their drill procedure, so that the NCC cadets can catch up, and then all of us would the next step (placing the rifle in front, and right leg slighty behind the left leg) together. The band would strike the first note just on time. To add to the whole confusion, we could not ignore every instance of the command "slope arms". During some time in the parade, "slope arms" meant that we had to pick up our rifles in "Bagal Shastr" position so that we can begin the march past. All very confusing onlee

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 28 Jan 2009 04:13

suman wrote:What is S-Maneuver in a missile ?Is it really important in a missile?

AFAIK an S Manoeuver is used to confuse enemy radars and missile interceptors abt the true bearing and direction of an incoming mijjile. For e.g the Brahmos will be doing an S-manoeuver when its really close to the target ship (I believe that it goes wavetop length during the final phase of the attack abt 20km) so as to confuse any CIWS (Close in Weapons System) (Phalanx, Kahstan, Goalkeeper etc). Thus it would be difficult for these CIWS to keep locking on to the incoming brahmos.

I hope that answers the question.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 28 Jan 2009 05:00

Sachin wrote:[
I think IA over-came this. My understanding is that recruitment happens at 17 1/2 years now, and the six months the recruits are not given any weapon training (so they are not child soldiers). That is only done after 6 months, when the recruits are just 18.

niiiiice way to counter that rule.

thanks sachin

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 28 Jan 2009 12:30

sachin,
really nice explaination.
can this be made into a BR article? Parading in the Indian Armed forces and paramilitary?

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 28 Jan 2009 21:12

Can I know that who made the video of Abdul Quadeer Khan, produced by Channel Phor??

Can we get more like it on Mushy, Zia, 10%, Bibi and hamid gul plz........

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jan 2009 01:46

Akshut wrote:Can I know that who made the video of Abdul Quadeer Khan, produced by Channel Phor??

Can we get more like it on Mushy, Zia, 10%, Bibi and hamid gul plz........

It was made by our member Rudradev. It took lot of effort as the cartoons were drawn in Flash and animated.

I think Mushy, Zia, Bibi and 10% are passe or temporary characters. Hamid Gul would be a good subject.

For this one has to have a story line and then proceed with graphics and then animation.

shubhanshu · Post by **shubhanshu** » 29 Jan 2009 03:01

Q1.Why is there ban on nuclear testing in upper atmosphere.
Q2.What are the advantages and disadvantages of using nuclear tipped ABM defense in situations where ABM system would be overwhelmed.(i have read about nike & zeus, sentinel programs etc but those programs are 40+ years old & and radars have come long way since then)
Q3.How good are present generation satellites in detecting launch of ballistic missiles and detecting its trajectory in post nuclear scenario.
Q4. What will happen to low earth orbit(200-400km) satellites if nuclear weapons are detonated say 100+ km in space, electromagnetic effects.
thanking in advance

SriniY · Post by **SriniY** » 29 Jan 2009 10:36

I have a question regarding Transfer of Technology. What exactly would we get when someone TOT's a product. Let us say for example that we looking at TOT for engine core technology.

1. Do they teach us how to make engines cores, modeling the core in a computer, teach us the advances in material science and industrial production techniques to manufacture, certify and repair the thing.

2. Do they say this is what is used to make the engine core, so and so components used and this is how we made it. Now u can do whatever you want with what we told you.

Or is it something else. What I am trying to ask is once we get ToT for a product, will we get the scientists and engineers trained to replicate, improvise or design from scratch a similar product.

SriniY · Post by **SriniY** » 29 Jan 2009 13:40

What would be the strength of a squadron for UAV's, air to air refuellers etc

Akshut · Post by **Akshut** » 29 Jan 2009 21:44

ramana wrote:
Akshut wrote:Can I know that who made the video of Abdul Quadeer Khan, produced by Channel Phor??

Can we get more like it on Mushy, Zia, 10%, Bibi and hamid gul plz........

It was made by our member Rudradev. It took lot of effort as the cartoons were drawn in Flash and animated.

I think Mushy, Zia, Bibi and 10% are passe or temporary characters. Hamid Gul would be a good subject.

For this one has to have a story line and then proceed with graphics and then animation.

Cheers to Rudradev!! You are really a Dev on BR.

Yes story line is necessary. AQ Khan did have a very nice life indeed.

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Jan 2009 22:02

SriniY wrote:What would be the strength of a squadron for UAV's, air to air refuellers etc

1 UAV sqdn= 4 UAVs IIRC.

Tankers no idea.

jobatra · Post by **jobatra** » 30 Jan 2009 02:03

poor n00b's Siachen expedition thread got me thinking:

Are civilian volunteers encouraged for Army expeditions? Has anyone done this before? Any contact info. for the Army Adventure Cell (or whoever else) would be very helpful. It's definitely something I would like to try.

TIA

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 31 Jan 2009 00:16

What is the official policy / practice of the army about religious facilities--if a regiment / unit etc. has Muslim soldiers do they get halal food, mosque or equivalent prayer facilities etc.? What is the situation regarding possible discrimination against minority religionists in terms of religious food, worship facilties etc.?

Some allegations about Indian military by Omar Khalidi

[bunch of other stuff deleted ]

"...While a bearded Sikh may become chief of the army staff as did Gen. J.J. Singh, a Muslim may not sport beard in any of the armed forces. Only Jhatka is served in army messes and langers forcing Muslims to become vegetarian. A Hanuman temple greets visitors upon entering virtually every cantonment in the nation, hinting non-Hindus that they don’t belong there. In their public addresses to the soldiers and officers, at least two army chiefs—Generals B.C. Joshi and Shankar Roy Chowdhury—have used references to Hindu scriptures to the exclusion of the Quran and the Bible...."

Please enlighten, knowledgeable ones.

thanks.

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 31 Jan 2009 02:27

Khalidi is a closet razakar from Hyderabad. what more can we expect?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 31 Jan 2009 03:46

KV Rao wrote:What is the official policy / practice of the army about religious facilities--if a regiment / unit etc. has Muslim soldiers do they get halal food, mosque or equivalent prayer facilities etc.? What is the situation regarding possible discrimination against minority religionists in terms of religious food, worship facilties etc.?

Please enlighten, knowledgeable ones.

thanks.

Only place in the whole world were you can see small church, masjid, gurudwara and temple in the same compound is an Indian army cantt. One such place that i still remember is Kota army cantt. Rest assured religious sentiments of each and every soldier is taken care of. You will hear such things (like religious discrimination ) only from people who have never felt/lived the culture of Armed forces.

Regarding this beard issue of not allowing Muslims to keep them, well in IA its not allowed at all (but in navy that is allowed only when you get a permission to keep it). Its a tradition carried forward from British times. Sikhs are exceptions (and they were in British period too).

Even in bakiland (a Muslim nation), beards were not allowed until Zia came.

Simply put, raising such questions and politicizing Army is just a way for saying lets split India.

Sandipan · Post by **Sandipan** » 31 Jan 2009 04:11

Why SU 30 MKI is called Rambha?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 31 Jan 2009 05:09

Sid wrote:
KV Rao wrote:What is the official policy / practice of the army about religious facilities--if a regiment / unit etc. has Muslim soldiers do they get halal food, mosque or equivalent prayer facilities etc.? What is the situation regarding possible discrimination against minority religionists in terms of religious food, worship facilties etc.?

Please enlighten, knowledgeable ones.

thanks.
Only place in the whole world were you can see small church, masjid, gurudwara and temple in the same compound is an Indian army cantt. One such place that i still remember is Kota army cantt. Rest assured religious sentiments of each and every soldier is taken care of. You will hear such things (like religious discrimination ) only from people who have never felt/lived the culture of Armed forces.

Regarding this beard issue of not allowing Muslims to keep them, well in IA its not allowed at all (but in navy that is allowed only when you get a permission to keep it). Its a tradition carried forward from British times. Sikhs are exceptions (and they were in British period too).

Even in bakiland (a Muslim nation), beards were not allowed until Zia came.

Simply put, raising such questions and politicizing Army is just a way for saying lets split India.

Of course this is what I too believe, but again, is there some documented (in any form) statement or observation that lays out this policy or practice? What about things like halal meat for muslim soldiers?