Indian Military Aviation

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby k prasad » 30 Jan 2009 20:23

Peru (i think in the ambulance role) and Burma (suspected to have been sold).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 30 Jan 2009 20:58

Ahuja sir might want to sanity check that Shinook ppt deck.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Juggi G » 31 Jan 2009 08:18

Image
Image

India’s C-130J Super Hercules
Lockheed Martin

India's C-130J's Cockpit
Image
Last edited by Juggi G on 31 Jan 2009 13:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2009 08:53

soothing....our SF units are going to love this puppy.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby soumik » 31 Jan 2009 09:10

the second picture looks like another sales pitch for the chinook, you have the hercules now buy the chinook you get airborne refuelling free! :D

Image

anyways this image shows what the mi-26 is really all about -raw power!enough to lift a chinook

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 31 Jan 2009 09:55

C-130s can be converted into tankers??
gr8, that would mean additional tanker assets during war.

Since tanker assets will never be enough during war. may be we should modify a small number of every aircraft type ( like fighter, transport, helicopter) for refuelling other aircraft. there could be situation in war times where fuel is low, range is not enough and tankers may not be availaible.
Last edited by ajay_ijn on 31 Jan 2009 10:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 31 Jan 2009 09:58

ajai, for you.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/kc-130.htm
The new KC-130J, with its increase in speed, range, improved air-to-air refueling system, night systems, and survivability enhancements, will provide the MAGTF commander with a state-of-the art, multimission, tactical aerial refueler/transport well into the 21st century. The KC-130J aircraft is a medium sized transport and tanker with capability for intra-theater and inter-theater airlift and aerial refueling operations. The KC-130J is capable of in-flight refueling of both fixed and rotary wing aircraft. The fuel system is a common cross-ship manifold that serves as a refueling system, a fuel supply crossfeed, a ground refueling system, and a fuel jettisoning system. It also retains the capability for worldwide delivery of combat troops, personnel, and cargo by airdrops or airland to austere, bare-base sites. The KC-130J is capable of day, night, and adverse weather operations.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Malay » 31 Jan 2009 11:34

Does KC-130J be used for probe and drogue or just boom refuelling.

AFAIK, Su-30's use only P&D refuelling method? Its usefullness is quite limited if it cant refuel the fighter fleet.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya G » 31 Jan 2009 11:50

Chinook is a proven but expensive bird for special operations. In recent times it is the Afghansitan war that has seen it in action. But in no way it is a replacement for Mi-26. Mi-26 is actually competition to the C-130! Chinook should be compared to Mi-17 which has proven itself with the IAF.

The slide on Mi-26's apparent inability to load vehicles directly off the ramp is pure bumkum - Mi-26 can actually accomodate the entire truck.

IMHO we should acquire more C-130Js for transport squadrons to relieve pressure off IL-76/78 sqns ... even since we had to retire An-12s from the fleet we are stuck with light An-32 on one end and heavy transport Gajraj on the other. Hercules has acquitted itself well in the subcontinent - PAF, SLAF and BAF are all operating it - especially Pakistan where conditions will be similar to India.

C-130s that we are buying are commando versions and have limited fuel reserve so its not exactly an addon to IL-78. Instead of pondering upon Airbus offering and dragging acquisition for 10 years a fast track order of IL-78s is required.

An-32 is a fine bird but it will need replacement soon C-27J and C295 come to mind.

If only the IAF were to do what I wish for it ... <sigh> :wink:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya G » 31 Jan 2009 11:55

Malay wrote:Does KC-130J be used for probe and drogue or just boom refuelling.

AFAIK, Su-30's use only P&D refuelling method? Its usefullness is quite limited if it cant refuel the fighter fleet.


It comes with hose since helicopters can be refueled only by that method.

This method is fine for fighters - the USN and all european airforces use it. The reason USAF is stuck with boom refueling has its origins in the cold war:

1. Bombers need massive quantities of fuel which takes lesser time to transfer using boom

2. Bombers and transports are not maneuverable hence it is the boom operator which is required to operate the boom to refuel the aircraft.

Different solutions for different problems.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 31 Jan 2009 12:04

Aditya G wrote:C-130s that we are buying are commando versions and have limited fuel reserve so its not exactly an addon to IL-78. Instead of pondering upon Airbus offering and dragging acquisition for 10 years a fast track order of IL-78s is required.

more IL-78 should be ordered. But it would provide more options if C-130J can be converted into tanker quickly even if its capacity to refuel is limited. during wartime, demand for tankers will be lot more.

Chinook is a proven but expensive bird for special operations. In recent times it is the Afghansitan war that has seen it in action. But in no way it is a replacement for Mi-26. Mi-26 is actually competition to the C-130! Chinook should be compared to Mi-17 which has proven itself with the IAF.

Chinook and Mi-17 too are incomparable i suppose.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 31 Jan 2009 13:02

the order for 80 Mi17V was inked recently - at around twice the initial $700 mil offer that was touted. guess the "extras" like wheels, user manuals, doors and engines made up the rest...using jf17 PnP marketing.

An32 re-engine and nav systems deal is supposed to be signed with Ukraine anytime....its been on board for 4+ years now. this will extend
their life by another 10 years surely.
http://www.kmu.gov.ua/control/publish/a ... d=11976360

the MTA deal has been a total dud and people are not even talking of
this scandal.

we need atleast 50 more of medium transport (MTA class) and 50
more of heavy freighter (IL76 class) to get into a comfortable zone.
the existing 24-28 fleet of IL76 is pathetic for a military and country of
our size. putting all of them together is not even enough to airlift
a brigade and their eqpt in a short enough time to make the difference.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby p_saggu » 31 Jan 2009 14:26

Interesting that both the Mi-26 and the C-130 appear on the same page on BRF.
They have one more thing in common. Both have THE SAME PAYLOAD CAPACITY - A little over 20 tons.
While the Mi-26 is a dated design, (Its unique rotor gearbox alone weighs > 3 tons, its tail rotor is large enough to be the main rotor of the dhruv !!!). There are problems with Mi-26 servicing and manufacture after the break up of the SU.

The russians are developing a more modern Mi-46 with similar specs.Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 31 Jan 2009 14:56

The russians are developing a more modern Mi-46 with similar specs.

according to this brochure posted in senguptas blog. its capacity 12 tons, same as Chinook.

In the competitive bidding process now underway for supplying up to 24 new-generation heavylift helicopters, Russia's Oboronprom JSC has offered the Mi-46 heavylift helicopter. Incidentally, the heavylift helicopter requirement has been broken down into two components, under which any bidder can offer to supply six heavylift helicopters to replace the existing six Mi-26Ts, plus another 16 heavy utility helicopters (for high-altitude aerial logistics) and another four of the same model that will be configured for high-altitude combat search-and-rescue. Boeing IDS is therefore offering the CH-47F Chinook and its HH-47 CSAR version, while AgustaWestland is offering the AW-101 (12 of which will shortly be ordered by the IAF for VIP transportation), and Sikorsky has just come in with the CH-53K. Although, Boeing IDS, Sikorsky and AgustaWestland have pitched their products to meet all three vertical airlift requirements, it is likely that in the end the competing bidders for the heavylift requirement will be restricted to the Mi-46 and CH-53K, while the battle to supply heavylift utility and high-altitude CSAR helicopters will be limited to the CH-47F/HH-47, and AW-101.--Prasun K. Sengupta

So its Chinook Vs Mi-46 Vs Super Stallion.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 31 Jan 2009 18:33

we need atleast 50 more of medium transport (MTA class) and 50
more of heavy freighter (IL76 class) to get into a comfortable zone.
the existing 24-28 fleet of IL76 is pathetic for a military and country of
our size. putting all of them together is not even enough to airlift
a brigade and their eqpt in a short enough time to make the difference.

Has anything been planned for the replacements for the MTA and the Il-76's( new Il-76s to be ordered). I havent come across any mention of the IAF plans for new versions of these aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Malay » 31 Jan 2009 20:06

Aditya G wrote:
Malay wrote:Does KC-130J be used for probe and drogue or just boom refuelling.

AFAIK, Su-30's use only P&D refuelling method? Its usefullness is quite limited if it cant refuel the fighter fleet.


It comes with hose since helicopters can be refueled only by that method.

This method is fine for fighters - the USN and all european airforces use it. The reason USAF is stuck with boom refueling has its origins in the cold war:

1. Bombers need massive quantities of fuel which takes lesser time to transfer using boom

2. Bombers and transports are not maneuverable hence it is the boom operator which is required to operate the boom to refuel the aircraft.

Different solutions for different problems.


I know that planes-European are refuelled by Boom method. I am not saying one is good and the other is bad.

But the majority of our fleet is Russian.
So my question: Can the C-130J be adapted to use Probe and Drogue refueling for our Sukhoi's.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 31 Jan 2009 20:20

Malay wrote:
Aditya G wrote:
It comes with hose since helicopters can be refueled only by that method.

This method is fine for fighters - the USN and all european airforces use it. The reason USAF is stuck with boom refueling has its origins in the cold war:

1. Bombers need massive quantities of fuel which takes lesser time to transfer using boom

2. Bombers and transports are not maneuverable hence it is the boom operator which is required to operate the boom to refuel the aircraft.

Different solutions for different problems.


I know that planes-European are refuelled by Boom method. I am not saying one is good and the other is bad.

But the majority of our fleet is Russian.
So my question: Can the C-130J be adapted to use Probe and Drogue refueling for our Sukhoi's.

why not, there is KC-130J, US Marines use them. BTW C-130 only has probe and drogue system .

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 31 Jan 2009 20:33

Sure, Marines use C-130J's to refuel their Helicopters, But how easy or stable would a Su-30 be flying at the speed a C-130J flies. I don't think a Su-30 can fly that slow and be stable enough to refuel

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 31 Jan 2009 21:07

Aditya_V wrote:Sure, Marines use C-130J's to refuel their Helicopters, But how easy or stable would a Su-30 be flying at the speed a C-130J flies. I don't think a Su-30 can fly that slow and be stable enough to refuel

if a hornet can refuel, then why not Su-30.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/kc-130-tanker.jpg

not just US marines, but Israel, Jordan, Singapore, Malaysia etc many countries use C-130 tanker versions.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Aditya_M » 01 Feb 2009 00:09

The bigger question is how many Su-30s can be refuelled by one KC-130? If the answer is "not enough" then that question goes right out the window. The Il-76/8 are massive in size compared to the Hercules; the F/A-18 is around half the size of the Flanker. If we do have a large fleet of choppers with refuelling capabilities, and if it can be added to the Dhruv and the LCH, I agree the KC-130J will be fine for us.

Someone raised the question about replacing the An-32: I have a slightly different plan from the C27 and existing aircraft - if the An-32 can last for a decade more we should put some money into the A-400M to replace it. We'll get aircraft by 2015 and it will be state of the art too; plus it will be nice to have EADS on our side. The program, though delayed, may end up coming at the perfect time for us. They recently tested its engine on a modified C-130 up to full power.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 01 Feb 2009 00:35

Errrr........

In keeping with IAF requirements, the US Government has offered a unique C-130J configuration modified for special mission roles.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 01 Feb 2009 00:39

yes, it's for sp ops. why are you surprised rao sahib ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby p_saggu » 01 Feb 2009 01:04

What is so special about a Specops version?
Assuming that Night flying capability is standard by now, the pilot even has a HUD on the C-130 for India.
What else?

How is it possible to convert a specops C-130 into a KC 130? The tanker version will come equipped with a factory fitted fuel and drouge system, Pumps, Cargo bay tanks, special screen and controls within the aircraft to monitor fuel supply etc. I don't think it is possible in the field. Unless to begin with a KC130 is ordered, and the Fuel tanks are removed for a mission. But why bother at all? why not have specialized airframes for each role.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 01 Feb 2009 01:14

high reliability nav system
FLIR and some other night time aid
decent counter measures
anything I have missed. :D

btw, it doesn't look like IAF version will have ability to re-fuel other a/c. it can itself use AAR however. to me it looks like it will be used for infiltration of about company strength spec ops personnel.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby keshavchandra » 01 Feb 2009 02:16

ajay_ijn wrote:
shameekg wrote:the basic difference is the LCH is what the name suggests, a light helicopter with lesser payload. However the operating altitude remains to be seen. Also the AH-64D has the radome on top to enable the Apache to be concealed while it attacks. I dont know if that will be an option on the LCH.

while its attacking or while tracking?

how can helicopter attack a target while hiding behind a mountain or a tree.

Is it possible to place any R&D project for stealth tech for helicopter , esp dhruv?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Vick » 01 Feb 2009 08:30

The Combat Shadow and the Combat Talon are good examples of specop configured Hercs. The IAF will probably get something that has capabilities of both types or can be reconfigured to either role.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby rkhanna » 01 Feb 2009 15:36

What is so special about a Specops version?
Assuming that Night flying capability is standard by now, the pilot even has a HUD on the C-130 for India.
What else?

How is it possible to convert a specops C-130 into a KC 130? The tanker version will come equipped with a factory fitted fuel and drouge system, Pumps, Cargo bay tanks, special screen and controls within the aircraft to monitor fuel supply etc. I don't think it is possible in the field. Unless to begin with a KC130 is ordered, and the Fuel tanks are removed for a mission. But why bother at all? why not have specialized airframes for each role.



THe C-130J that we are getting is Near Combat Talon Spec. (Designed for SpecOps warfare- Keeping in mind Stealthier Infil and Extraction , and heavy EW Gear to Go around enemy AD systems)

Equipment Liat Includes

-Rolls Royce AE-2100D3
-AAR-47 missile warning systems,
-AN/ALR-56M advanced radar warning receivers
-AN/ALE-47 Counter-Measures Dispensing Systems
-AAQ-22 Star SAFIRE III Special Operations Suites
-ALQ-211 Suite of Integrated Radio Frequency Countermeasures
-AN/ARC-210 Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio Systems (SINCGARS)
-Key Gen (KV-10) Systems along with Other ARC-210 Non-standard Communication/COMSEC equipment.


All of that is found in the Combat Talon II (The CT III is more advanced)


http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=53631.45;wap2
ttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2085836.cms

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 01 Feb 2009 15:54

what, no terrain following radar ?? :-?

low level flight at night would be near impossible w/o it.

so role may be different from what I thought.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 01 Feb 2009 16:29

we wont be wasting 1 billion USD for getting 6 standard Cargo Aircraft. the difference in equipment must be certainly there. it may not have been mentioned in notification to congress.

Cost of MC-130H is 155 million USD in 2001 prices
http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=115
while cost of standard C-130J is mentioned at 48 million in 1998 prices.

this website also speculates the same thing.
Lockheed Martin sources had initially provided a figure of 12-13 aircraft as the size of the likely Indian order, which were expected to operate in a Special Forces role. It is not clear whether the Indian order is for C-130Js with minor customizations, or a J variant of the heavily-modified and much more expensive MC-130J "Combat Talon III" special forces aircraft. The equipment requested by the Indian Air Force, and the cost levels, would seem to indicate an aircraft similar to the Combat Talon.

The ongoing acquisition and modernization drive of the Indian armed forces is also seeing the IAF looking at a major upgrade of its AN-32 fleet, along with that of its 25-30 IL-76 Gajraj strategic transport aircraft. The upgrades would likely extend the life of these aircraft by 10-20 years. Lockheed Martin is also interested in offering the IAF the $60-80 million base version of the C-130J Hercules as a likely replacement for the AN-32.


Israel purchased 9 C-130Js for 1.9 billion USD with similar equipment except for refuelling capability which is not mentioned in indias case.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Isr ... 0s-05011/'

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby ajay_ijn » 01 Feb 2009 20:28

p_saggu wrote:What is so special about a Specops version?
Assuming that Night flying capability is standard by now, the pilot even has a HUD on the C-130 for India.
What else?

How is it possible to convert a specops C-130 into a KC 130? The tanker version will come equipped with a factory fitted fuel and drouge system, Pumps, Cargo bay tanks, special screen and controls within the aircraft to monitor fuel supply etc. I don't think it is possible in the field. Unless to begin with a KC130 is ordered, and the Fuel tanks are removed for a mission. But why bother at all? why not have specialized airframes for each role.

IMO we should have aircraft which are flexible enough to act as both tankers as well as cargo aircraft besides dedicated tankers. if an Su-30, Mig-29K become a minitanker for their buddies, why not general cargo aircraft.

assuming we purchased a large no. of dedicated IL-78 tankers, they are not going be used so much during peacetime. Instead of lying idle, they can be converted into cargo aircraft which can help in Army logistics and airlift operations during natural disasters. and convert them back into tankers as and when needed.

as per this source IL-78s can be converted for carryin cargo, while A-330 has capability to carry both cargo & fuel simulataneously.

if conversion from tanker to cargo happens more easily and quickly, it would be flexible for AF. So that means aircraft should already be fitted with proge & drogue system, pods, motors etc.

all AF crew must do is plugin and remove the tanks whenever needed. Even with cargo, if aircraft can transport its internal fuel to combat aircraft then it would be great for overseas deployments.

i was thinking that its even more simple for Fighters and thats why buddy to buddy refuelling is so widespread.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby KrishG » 01 Feb 2009 21:15

duplicate blog post deleted. plz check that the article hasn't been posted already.
thanks.
Last edited by Rahul M on 01 Feb 2009 23:02, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: deleted duplicate article.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby p_saggu » 01 Feb 2009 22:51

An old bit of trivia - A must watch

IAF Attacks Tezgaon Airbase, Dacca in 1971



Just goes on to show how incredibly brave these pilots are. :shock:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 01 Feb 2009 23:09

saggu ji, did you by any chance notice the username of the uploader ? :wink:

btw, the su was lost to ground fire right ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby p_saggu » 01 Feb 2009 23:12

Rahul M wrote:saggu ji, did you by any chance notice the username of the uploader ? :wink:


:eek: My word! How careless of me ! I must be getting old already.

This was in the comments section.

Sukhoi-7 of No.221 Squadron. The Pilot was Sqn ldr S V Bhutani. He ejected right in dacca, taken POW. was liberated on Dec 16.
The aircraft was lost to ground fire.
Incredible bravery! The ground fire ripped the aircraft apart, could just as easily do the same to the pilots!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 01 Feb 2009 23:20

saggu ji, thanks for the info. youtube isn't working for me at the moment.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Mihir » 01 Feb 2009 23:31

soumik wrote:anyways this image shows what the mi-26 is really all about -raw power!enough to lift a chinook

Let us not read too much into that picture, shall we? The weight of an empty Chinook doesn't even begin to approach the payload capacity of the Mi-26.


Aditya G wrote:But in no way it is a replacement for Mi-26... The slide on Mi-26's apparent inability to load vehicles directly off the ramp is pure bumkum - Mi-26 can actually accomodate the entire truck.

I don't know why Shiv thinks Boeing is comparing the Chinook with the Mi-26 in that presentation. The other helicopter in the presentation is clearly a CH-53.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Vick » 02 Feb 2009 01:40

Between the Chinook and the Halo, there really is no contest. No one makes new Halos while Chinooks are coming off the line almost daily. As far as the Mi-46 goes, it exists only as pixels on a graphic artist's monitor.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby AdityaM » 02 Feb 2009 01:48

Driving by Punjab towards Delhi, when I reached Ambala, I was greeted by the sight of 2 majestic fighter planes taking off. I could have sworn that they looked like a Mig29 or Su30 when viewed from down below. Finally confirmation from wikipedia that Ambala houses Su30!
By the time i could fumble & aim my camera, the bird had almost flown away, leaving a blurry image.

My concern is that the highway is so close to their take off path, any one with heatseeker will be provided with the full view of the bottom of a fuselage long enough to take aim & shoot, & skoot.
Anyways i am thrilled with my Su30 pic, howsoever blurred it is. :)


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