Questioning the Army's Methodologies

[Raja Bose]

THE SAFAIWALA

My battalion, after a stint in Operation Intrusion Dalunang in the Kargil High Altitude Sector had come down to Hyderabad in 1990. Obviously, the officers were rather keen to get married accommodation at the earliest. It took us about four months before we could get some accommodation in spite of having ‘field seniority’.
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Ray sir, This has got to be the best story you have told...even better than the story which involved aloo bondas. So what happened to this 'psycho' officer? Did he turn out OK or was he really psycho???!!

[RayC]

Somnath,

Imaginative?

Right, how much imagination can one require to ensure that there are AT Companies and mules available to haul stores and munition to posts where there are no roads and mere footpaths and mule track. Or to realise that the Pioneer Companies are required for transport aircraft unloading, preparing ALGs etc? And then, the Dog Units not being required and so on and so forth!

It is the imaginative bureaucrats who are experts on everything under the sun who devise methods to ensure ‘savings’ for the govt and give harebrained suggestions that get worked through since they have the ear of the Ministers, who then get the Army to do ‘something’! And that something is translated into a Chandrashekar Committee and things get pruned ‘imaginatively’, and then a war breaks out and people ‘imaginatively’ die and then dawns the ‘imaginative’ imagination that what was there before was the right thing!!

Now, what are the developments that have happened since Kargil that you talk about? I am not aware of them.

RR is an all Army outfit. The Budget may have been delinked, but the pay continues to be from the Army.

It must also be remembered that there is a modernisation on as far as the Army is concerned and therefore what was earlier being used for RR is going to keep the Army as far as possible state of art as far as the Govt’s threat perception is concerned.

Why should the RR be made into a separate organisation and have the usual turf wars that besotted the govt organisations? Aren’t the massive screw ups in the intelligence agencies not an example to indicate that too many cooks spoil the broth? Why do you suggest empire building? Aren’t there enough of empires already?

I am not aware of successive Army Chiefs asking that RR should be a separate cadre. Who are these Chiefs? I am aware that the person, Gen Bipin Joshi, who got the idea of the RR going, surely did not ask. I was his Staff Officer.
As far as the SS is concerned, unless a guaranteed alternate job scheme is in place, it is unfair to those who join the SS cadre. In fact, without such a scheme, it is only those who cannot get better employment who joins. Therefore, your idea of quality in the army is defeated, even before it got working!!

I am afraid you have no idea of where the ‘stress’ levels are in the Army. It is at the command level – every level i.e. platoon, company and more so, the Battalion!! These ranks are where the real action is! Therefore, to suggest any old character can fill these posts and that the brass is something extraordinary is misplaced. The brass is picked up from the very same people and with the same talent. This ‘talent’ is nurtured from the day one joins at great expense in money and in guidance, apart from a whole lot of courses at great expense to the Army and the govt!! No other organisation in India, spends so much of money and effort to ensure that all personnel, be they officers or men, are kept up to date and ‘current’!

The concept that you have suggested to keep the Army ‘mean and lean’ is what Arun Singh has suggested – pull and push.

However, the govt and their Yes Ministers are dragging their feet!

[RayC]

THE SAFAIWALA

My battalion, after a stint in Operation Intrusion Dalunang in the Kargil High Altitude Sector had come down to Hyderabad in 1990. Obviously, the officers were rather keen to get married accommodation at the earliest. It took us about four months before we could get some accommodation in spite of having ‘field seniority’.
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Ray sir, This has got to be the best story you have told...even better than the story which involved aloo bondas. So what happened to this 'psycho' officer? Did he turn out OK or was he really psycho???!!

I have a whole lot of such stories. but I can't find a publisher!

It is a real happening by the way!

That is why I remember the lungi!

The officer did very well under my command.

[RayC]

^^^ I am not debating your right to remove the post, though I wish you had let other people make their judgment, especially as the post wasn't abusive or totally unrelated.

My point is that leadership is a function of inherent character, of what a person is, not of what clothes he wears. Can Shah Rukh Khan lead a popular movement? If yes, for how long? What about Aishwarya Rai?

IMHO we should discount the notion that officers cannot be 'at ease' when at home, or that it is somehow 'inappropriate' to wear traditional dresses like 'lungi' or 'dhoti' at home. IMHO this is a colonial notion. I would be the last one to ask for getting rid of so-called 'colonial notions' if doing so hampers efficiency, however not wearing lungi or dhoti purposely so that the subordinates do not think ill of the officers hurts my nationalistic pride deeply. What next, should south indian officers not eat with their fingers and instead use cutlery even at home?

We need to respect our traditions, our native clothes, our native cultures.

My friend, you are wrong when you think that officers cannot be at ease in their home.

I would like to walk around naked since I hate weights having been in the Infantry and carrying a huge amount of weight on my back including an Arctic pup tent.

Will that be OK with you or your family or with your shahayak?

We came into the world nude. So, that is the most natural form in any culture or any civilisation! So, why wear clothes?

How come that the population of India are mostly in jeans (even in the villages)? Are they anti national?

Why they wear jeans is that it can be as dirty as feasible and it need not be ironed! Easy way out! And it has nothing to do with culture!

Why try to project yourself as a great swadeshi when you yourself are not in the 'national' attire?

Quit acting smug!

Who has informed you that officers eat with cutlery at home? They eat with whatever is appropriate.

My cousin, who is a civilian, and a cleanliness freak, eats with fork and spoon that is tobe kept in a glass with boiled water. He is fear crazed about bacteria! And he is not from the army. And he wears western clothes.

If you are such a nationalist, go stand post and without pay!

Go take on the terrorists!

All gas and no go!

[somnath]

RayC,

In case the IA no longer has CI duties in Kashmir, doesnt it "save" personnel? In the '90s, there was an agreement between India and China to thin out troops along the eastern borders - didnt that result in effective manpower saving? About RR, successive chiefs have said this, including the present incumbent. Today, it is completely a deputationist force. A separate force, while remaining under the operational command of the Army, will result in considerable savings to the Army (considering the strength of RR would be in the region of 70-80k.)...

About SSC, while there is stress at every command level position, you dont need every cadet to have the potential of going to staff college, or taking up positions at the Strategic Forces Command..Given that a vast majority of them would retire at the rank of Lt Col, you can get people who are good enough for platoon and company level commands, dont invest as much in them in terms of training for specialised tasks - give them a golden handshake at the end of 3-5 years which sets them up for a life after...Its a modification of the national service concept in countries like Israel and Singapore. The training for the national servicemen is fairly basic, the tasks apportioned to them are suitably "basic" as well...You wont find, for example, elements of Sayaret Matkal from the ranks of national servicemen! The SSC can be a good replica of that...The amount of money that the Army will save just on pensions will be enough to pretty much double salaries of the Permanent cadre...

[rohitvats]

@Somnath:

SSC fits the bill in multiple ways..About 80% of the officer corps will be Lt Col and below..The skills required for most jobs at these levels (commanding a platoon, company or battalion) would not require uniform "brass quality" talent..Say you staff 60% of these ranks by the SSC. You immediately save on pension and other retirement benefits of almost 50% of the officer corps...Some of it you upfront and monetise for a "golden handshake" for the SSC folks, so that it prepares them for a next life after ARmy.

I've already given an example to prove that how the SSC cadre cannot be the majority %age of the Officer Cadre in the IA. You've again completely overlooked that and are again giving arguments which are not practicle.The timeline for attaining various ranks is Lt./Capt/Major/Lt.Col is On joining/2 years/6 years(an examination called Part B has to be cleared)/13 years (Part D has to be cleared). Now the current tenure for SSC is 5 years in which he/she can attain the rank of Captain. It is extendable to 7years and 14years. So, the argument that SSC Cadre can fill the majority of the officer cadre simply does not hold water.Any thing beyond 5years beats the very foundation of SSC argument. Your Company commanders, Brigade Majors, 2IC and COs will have to be from the permanent cadre.

And what is this brass quality that you keep harping on? The backbone of IA and any other army is this cadre and it better be top quality. It is exactly this cadre which forms the pool for higher leadreship. Did the leadership displayed and task undertaken by Col.Raghvendran of 2nd Rajput and Lt.Col.Kushal Tahkur of 13 JAK Rif. any less demanding of leadership, initiative and understanding of nuances of military craft?Contrary to the argument, you do require unifrom high caliber leadership at all the level. The reality is that you do not get uniform caliber and hence, some go ahead to attain higher ranks and undertake higher leadership courses.

Once thrust that the IA can look is grooming and giving more responsibilities to Senior NCOs while reducing the age profile of JCOs (RayC Sir, your input would be welcome on this). This can actually help to reduce the number of Officers required. But for various reasons, socio-economic profile of the NCOs being a major one, we have not been able to sustantially progrees on this issue.

The IA is not able to, because of various well enumertaed reasons, the "right quality" for the few that need to graduate to higher things.

If the very base of the edifice is weak, how will you build the top? You start with the right quality at bottom and from this pool comes the higher leadership. The few that graduate to higher leadership have proven themselves at each level against and equally competetive bunch of co-officers. The IA has the luxury of then choosing the best of the cream and exposing them to higher leadership. But that does not mean you start with a small base which then continously gets groomed for higher leadership.

PS: If you've not already, please read about the General General Staff. How the best of the lot were picked and grommed for higher leadership. Here is the wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_general_staff

[Rahul M]

In the '90s, there was an agreement between India and China to thin out troops along the eastern borders - didnt that result in effective manpower saving?

comparing the terrain and infrastructure on the chinese side and the Indian side, PLA would take much lesser time to achieve much higher deployment levels than IA starting from similar figures.
such an agreement means surrendering advantage to china, nothing less.

[Mohan G]

RayC,

While the textile consumption pattern in the country shows that the popularity of 'dhoti' is gradually going down, I guess it is because people think trousers are more functional and less cumbersome, not because they think their reputation may fall in some people's eyes if they wear dhoti. And trousers are more popular than jeans. For women, saris are far more popular than jeans, though urban women are demanding more jeans nowadays.

National Household Survey: Market for Textiles & Clothing 2008

Interestingly, where turnout matters a lot, Indian traditional garments are becoming increasingly popular in weddings. A few decades back everyone was well suited-booted, now we can see more ethnic dresses. I just love it.

In fact, given the widespread availability of western clothes, the indian elites have started to wear more - not less - ethnic clothes. Wearing western clothes in not sufficient to distinguish oneself from one's subordinates.

Indian people know which dresses they identify with more. There must be a reason why P Chidambaram, our Home Minister, and A K Antony, our defence minister, are almost always seen in Indian dresses.

And nobody suggested anything about remaining nude inside home. Nudity is the 'natural dress' only for Digambar Jain munis, and a few sects of Hindu sadhus. And I wouldn't suggest that our public servants have the kind of mental discipline attributed to Jain munis.

My last post on the matter of clothes in the present discussion.

[RayC]

Since you have not mentioned what you do, I am not aware as to how to address the issue so that you can understand in the correct context.

Who has given you the impression that the IA is not involved in CI in Kashmir? Bone up and then comment.

Let us look at CI. The CI issue has two angles – rural and urban. The urban angle has been given to the Paramilitary and the rural to the Army and the RR. It is a misconception to believe that ALL urban areas are with the paramilitary. The ‘hot spots’ are with the Army or it is a mixed responsibility.

Next, too many cooks spoil the broth. So is the case with the Unified Command wherein all including the politicians are involved. Each has a different agenda. I am sure you will recall the chaos that the Amarnath issue made!

That is why the organisation should be from the same ‘parent’.

Your contention that successive Chiefs have stated that RR should be a separate organisation including the present one, is interesting. Do give a link, so that I can clear the ideas for the present Chief (if indeed he said so) as to what was the idea of Gen Bipin Joshi when he raised this force. The present Chief happens to be my coursemate!

Why do you have this babu mentality of saving uber alles? Between you and me, disband the military, police and the government servants. Great savings, I assure you! And what is a few Mumbai carnages? Fun and games, right? What is Kargil? To quote a PM of your ideology as yours, not a blade of grass grows!

As far as the SS, you are wrong. Indeed they should be Staff College, Senior Command and Higher Command material. All have to have fire in their bellies. There is no place for those who think second is OK for them. Wars cannot be won by those who ‘stand and wait’!

It is ridiculous to suggest that one should not invest in those who are the SS cadres. Are they there to poodlefake? How to you fight a war with people who are not trained to for their job? Are you suggesting that one should not know how to employ his assets optimally? Odd logic.

I find it humorous that you compare the threat perception of Singapore with India and that we should emulate Singapore.

Do be good enough to check with Singapore how they perceive their threat.

As far as how higher leadership is selected, articles do not impress me. I have hands on experience! Practical stuff matters and not second hand 'wisdom'!

[RayC]

RayC,

While the textile consumption pattern in the country shows that the popularity of 'dhoti' is gradually going down, I guess it is because people think trousers are more functional and less cumbersome, not because they think their reputation may fall in some people's eyes if they wear dhoti. And trousers are more popular than jeans. For women, saris are far more popular than jeans, though urban women are demanding more jeans nowadays.

National Household Survey: Market for Textiles & Clothing 2008

Interestingly, where turnout matters a lot, Indian traditional garments are becoming increasingly popular in weddings. A few decades back everyone was well suited-booted, now we can see more ethnic dresses. I just love it.

In fact, given the widespread availability of western clothes, the indian elites have started to wear more - not less - ethnic clothes. Wearing western clothes in not sufficient to distinguish oneself from one's subordinates.

Indian people know which dresses they identify with more. There must be a reason why P Chidambaram, our Home Minister, and A K Antony, our defence minister, are almost always seen in Indian dresses.

And nobody suggested anything about remaining nude inside home. Nudity is the 'natural dress' only for Digambar Jain munis, and a few sects of Hindu sadhus. And I wouldn't suggest that our public servants have the kind of mental discipline attributed to Jain munis.

My last post on the matter of clothes in the present discussion.

My friend, I am a bow tie and suit man in Army gatherings.

I am a dhoti and Punjabi (you call it kurta) for Bengali weddings.

In the Army, we are taught to be 'appropriately' dressed!

I take pride in wearing my dhoti and Punjabi, but I will be damned if I am to wear it to a dance and dinner!

[somnath]

Rohitvats

Some info about the army org structure of Israel..http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... l/army.htm

About 70% of the Army is made up of reservists...The command positions are held by the permanent cadre..
SSC is a variant of the concept..If you have a large % of captains and lieutenants from the SSC, and a "material" % of MAjors, you would have a leaner (in nos terms) permanent cadre..Bear in mind also the fact that the services are already "top heavy", and getting heavier..There aremany more colonels, brigadiers and "brass" than what is merited by the "jobs" available...In this scenario, you can prune the nos of the higher command ranks to an optimum level, but since you are paying mjuch better at each level, a lot of people wont be too disappointed!

The link on the German general staff is quite illuminating...Havent seen this before..But you would see that even here there was an attempt to create an "elite" general staff, not more than 50-100 in number..Drawing a corollary, you would create in India a permanent cadre, from the truly "elite" of the society. It is smaller, but most of them equipped to take up staff positions, man the SFC, man the DIPAC, command the special ops and such specialised units..All of them would still come up the grind, in battalions and brigade level appointments, but more of them (in % terms) would go to the staff college and do all the above listed..

@ RayC,

Cant find the link for Gen Kapoor's comments right now, but I distinctly remember having read this recently...Will try to google it out...I am not disputing the involvement of the Army in CI in Kashmir, jst the fact that over the last 10 years, the involvement would have gone down in nos terms (with DPMFs and RR)..So relatively speaking the Army is "less stretched" than it was 10 years back..About the RR, the idea is convert it into an Assam Rifles type outfit, so it remains "in" the Army, while shiftnig the budgets elsewhere completely...It would also solve the problems arising out the deputationist nature of the force - which I am sure you are all too well aware of..

About the force structure and threat perception of Singapore, well there are other examples as well, like Israel..Cant be your case that Israel has a "colder" threat perception than us!

I am a bit puzzled with your logic though..So every cadet in the Army should have the potential of manning SFC positions? Or Special ops commands? Or Division/corps level commands? never mind the fact that most of them would retire as Lt Cols?

All organisations create such differential cdres, including the Armed forces of various countries!!

Its no one's case that the Army should be disbanded, or the police for that matter..The question here (I thought) was how do you give those who choose the services as a career option a better deal..

[RayC]

How is the Israeli Army threat perception the same as the Indian Army?

Do the Indians have the same fear psychosis of surviving as a nation as the Israelis?

[somnath]

As far as how higher leadership is selected, articles do not impress me. I have hands on experience! Practical stuff matters and not second hand 'wisdom'!

RayC, would defer to you on most things operational..But would humbly point out the dictum "war is too important to be left to generals"!!It was Churchill, I think..Also most of the distinguished strategic thinkers of our times have been "civilians" - Robert Macnamara, Henry Kissinger, even our homegrown K Subramanyam!

[Rahul M]

somnath, I humbly interject that strategic thinking of the type what KS is known for is quite different from what RayC is referring to and can't be compared.

IDF's case of reservists is out of necessity for a country with a tiny population, not sure why we are comparing countries with entirely different characters and capabilities.

[somnath]

RahulM,

I am not "comparing" India and Israel, or Singapore..No two countries are alike in terms of threat perception..the point is that there are "models" of Armies maintaining differential cadres in the officer corps, and successful models..

Ditto for the example on KS. Of course someone who has served would have a better insight on most things tactical, but at the same time, servicemen typically are not known for grand strategic insights!

[Mohan G]

Notwithstanding my earlier reservations about SSC, I have thought a little more about the issue, and it seems that we do need to have a robust SSC structure that forms a majority of our officer work force. There seem to be no other practical solutions.

This is a theme I would expand upon later, but prima-facie my opinion is that we expect too high a ‘quality’ from the pool of candidates applying for the post of officers in the military. From the selector’s point of view, the higher the quality of the officer-trainees, the less the work the selectors need to put in their training. {On a related note, some people discount the contribution of IITs to the output of the graduates. They suggest that the IITs pool talented candidates who would have performed almost equally well had they gone to other engineering colleges.}

I know comparisons are not entirely accurate, but I just took a look at the academic quality of entrants to West Point, the US Academy for training officers.

The admission process consists of two parts. Candidates must apply directly to USMA for admission, and they must obtain a nomination. The majority of candidates receive their nomination from their congressman. The nomination process is not political and applicants do not have to know their congressman to be nominated. The nomination process typically consists of writing essays, obtaining letters of recommendation, and a formal interview. Admission to West Point is selective: 12.75% of applicants were admitted (total of 1292) to the Class of 2012. The academy considers an applicant's race as a criteria for admission to ensure a diverse student body. Candidates must be between 17 and 23 years old, unmarried, and with no legal obligation to support a child. Above average high school or previous college grades and strong performance on standardized testing is expected. The interquartile range on the SAT was 1100–1360 and 68% ranked in the top fifth of their high school class. To be eligible for appointment, candidates must also undergo a Candidate Fitness Assessment and a complete physical exam.

Source

For anyone who has ever given or knows a person who has given a SAT or GRE test, it will become immediately clear that the interquartile score of 1100-1360 is no great shakes. Let me explain: 25th percentile of the admitted students to West Point is 1100. In year 2007, 39% of the male students giving SAT scored more than 1100. This means about 25% of the West Point Academy entrants were in the bottom 61% of the SAT test takers.

Somnath has been arguing for the 95th percentile guy to be taken in for PC, and 60th percentile guy to be taken in for SSC. Earlier, I argued that given the large pool of class XII passouts, or college passouts, the actual entrants are placed much higher. Then he modified his argument by saying that the percentiles he referred to were for the ‘employable’ quality material.

Here I show that in US, so far as the sheer ‘academic merit’ goes, people in the bottom 60% of the grade XII passout class are easily entering their military academies to become officers of the US armed forces.

Profile - Class of 2012 at West Point

Our SSBs say they cannot find suitable candidates. I don’t know what kind of OLQs they are looking for.

[Mohan G]

Just to add to above:

25% entrants scored above 1360. This score means the top 7% of the class XII male passouts who give SAT exam. Probably this group is the PC - type group, who would stand a good chance to get promoted and stay in the military for long.

As I posted earlier, one third of the class leaves immediately after completing five years of mandatory service.

[RayC]

As far as how higher leadership is selected, articles do not impress me. I have hands on experience! Practical stuff matters and not second hand 'wisdom'!

RayC, would defer to you on most things operational..But would humbly point out the dictum "war is too important to be left to generals"!!It was Churchill, I think..Also most of the distinguished strategic thinkers of our times have been "civilians" - Robert Macnamara, Henry Kissinger, even our homegrown K Subramanyam!

The sad part is that you all go by adages - wars are too important to be left to the Generals et al. As if these inane stuff was etched in stones! What humbug!

I wish you all had met Gen Bipin Joshi.

The Cold Start concept that the bureaucrats finally allowed the Govt to accept, after the bumbling consequent to Op Parakrama, was his brainchild!

The Govt, held at ransom by the IAS, is hardly the stuff that allows the Army to function. Their foolish advice got the poor Shivraj Patil a sad political demise!! I don't Chiduda is someone very superior to poor Patil except that he is more slippery and know how to save his bacon!

The Cold Start doctrine has given Pakistan cold shivers! Do check Pakistani comments on the issue!

Do read!

[Mohan G]

The peculiar regional and political quota system for selection to West Point:

Prior to 1903, the student body was limited to a maximum total of 600, although it was axiomatic that that maximum was rarely reached due to appointment rules and academic and disciplinary attrition in each class. Each US Representative was entitled to have one Cadet from his home district at any time, while each US Senator could have one Cadet from his home State at-large at any time. Each Territorial Delegate could have one Cadet, and the President could have thirty Cadets at any time. This left 89 slots that could be filled by other means, to include appointment from the enlisted ranks, and foreign military appointments. Each new class started with approximately 150 Cadets

By an Act of Congress passed in 1903, two appointments as Cadets were allowed for each senator, representative, and delegate in Congress, two for the District of Columbia, and five each year at large on an Annual basis. Currently, each member of Congress and the Vice President can have five appointees attending the Military Academy at any time. When any appointee graduates or otherwise leaves the academy, a vacancy is created. The process is not political and applicants do not have to know their congressman to be nominated. Congressmen generally nominate ten people per vacancy. They can nominate people in a competitive manner, or they can have a principal nomination. In a competitive nomination, all ten applicants are reviewed by the academy to see who is the most qualified. If the congressman appoints a principal nominee, then as long as that candidate is physically, medically, and academically found qualified by the academy, he or she will be admitted, even if there are more qualified applicants. The degree of difficulty in obtaining a nomination varies greatly according to the number of applicants in a particular state. The process of obtaining a nomination typically consists of completing an application, completing one or more essays, and obtaining one or more letters of recommendation. These requirements are set by the respective senator or congressman and are in addition to the USMA application.

Additional sources of appointment are open to children of career military personnel (100 per year); 170 appointments per year are for active-duty Army enlisted personnel; 20 appointments per year are provided for Army Reserve Officer Training Corps Cadets; and 65 appointments are available to children of military members who were killed in action, or were rendered 100% disabled from injuries received in action, or are currently prisoners of war or missing in action. Additionally, children of Medal of Honor recipients do not need a nomination, but only need to qualify for admission.

Typically, five to ten candidates are nominated for each appointment, which are normally awarded competitively; candidates who do not receive the appointment for which they are competing may still be admitted to the Academy as a qualified alternate. If a candidate is considered qualified but not picked up, they may receive an indirect admission to the United States Military Academy Preparatory School in Fort Monmouth, New Jersey; the following year, these candidates receive direct appointment to the Academy.

[somnath]

Mohan G,

I dont think the "merit" issue can be profitably discussed - too many strong points of view there..Thank God for small mercies that there is no reservation in the services...Unlike every other place (including unfortunately the IIMs and IITs)...

The moot point is how to make a services career more attractive to the younger generation..We havent even started scratcing the surface in terms of the new military currecnies of power for an aspiring superpower...We would very soon need the services of specialists in the strategic frocecs command, in the DIPAC, in intel...A much better paid permanent cadre would be able to attrct enough youth who would otherwise have alternatives...SSC is one idea..The devil's in the detail there..But it has the potential..

RayC, what has been the bureaucratic meddling in Cold Start? Most of the bureaucracy is in financial decision making...Cold Start, in terms of equipment acquiition, as far as I can see involves nothing different from what was being asked for under the so-called Sundarji doctrine...

Would be interesting to know what kind of "different" equipment Army is looking for under Cold Start...

[RayC]

Notwithstanding my earlier reservations about SSC, I have thought a little more about the issue, and it seems that we do need to have a robust SSC structure that forms a majority of our officer work force. There seem to be no other practical solutions.

This is a theme I would expand upon later, but prima-facie my opinion is that we expect too high a ‘quality’ from the pool of candidates applying for the post of officers in the military. From the selector’s point of view, the higher the quality of the officer-trainees, the less the work the selectors need to put in their training. {On a related note, some people discount the contribution of IITs to the output of the graduates. They suggest that the IITs pool talented candidates who would have performed almost equally well had they gone to other engineering colleges.}

I know comparisons are not entirely accurate, but I just took a look at the academic quality of entrants to West Point, the US Academy for training officers.

The admission process consists of two parts. Candidates must apply directly to USMA for admission, and they must obtain a nomination. The majority of candidates receive their nomination from their congressman. The nomination process is not political and applicants do not have to know their congressman to be nominated. The nomination process typically consists of writing essays, obtaining letters of recommendation, and a formal interview. Admission to West Point is selective: 12.75% of applicants were admitted (total of 1292) to the Class of 2012. The academy considers an applicant's race as a criteria for admission to ensure a diverse student body. Candidates must be between 17 and 23 years old, unmarried, and with no legal obligation to support a child. Above average high school or previous college grades and strong performance on standardized testing is expected. The interquartile range on the SAT was 1100–1360 and 68% ranked in the top fifth of their high school class. To be eligible for appointment, candidates must also undergo a Candidate Fitness Assessment and a complete physical exam.

Source

For anyone who has ever given or knows a person who has given a SAT or GRE test, it will become immediately clear that the interquartile score of 1100-1360 is no great shakes. Let me explain: 25th percentile of the admitted students to West Point is 1100. In year 2007, 39% of the male students giving SAT scored more than 1100. This means about 25% of the West Point Academy entrants were in the bottom 61% of the SAT test takers.

Somnath has been arguing for the 95th percentile guy to be taken in for PC, and 60th percentile guy to be taken in for SSC. Earlier, I argued that given the large pool of class XII passouts, or college passouts, the actual entrants are placed much higher. Then he modified his argument by saying that the percentiles he referred to were for the ‘employable’ quality material.

Here I show that in US, so far as the sheer ‘academic merit’ goes, people in the bottom 60% of the grade XII passout class are easily entering their military academies to become officers of the US armed forces.

Profile - Class of 2012 at West Point

Our SSBs say they cannot find suitable candidates. I don’t know what kind of OLQs they are looking for.

The idea that those who are ‘high quality’ would mean ‘less work’ to groom them for the Army is a totally fallacious thought. Military training is totally different from ‘normal life’ that an inductee has seen. Chalk and cheese!
.
I would not comment on the US system since the parameters are different and personally I am not enamoured by foreign equivalents. I am concerned about India and I care less for what others are doing, more so in fields that are not similar to our requirement. Weren't you the one who was over nationalist? What happened that you have changed tack?

I know comparisons are not entirely accurate, but I just took a look at the academic quality of entrants to West Point, the US Academy for training officers.

As I have stated., the requirement or what we call Qualitative Requirement for the Army is totally different for what would be required for an ISRO scientist or a rocket engineer! There is no common ground.

OLQ is simple. It is embodied in Chetwode’s words and one has to translate into ground realities. That is OLQ.

"The safety, honour and welfare of your country come first, always and every time. The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next. Your own ease, comfort and safety come last, always and every time."

[RayC]

RayC, what has been the bureaucratic meddling in Cold Start? Most of the bureaucracy is in financial decision making...Cold Start, in terms of equipment acquiition, as far as I can see involves nothing different from what was being asked for under the so-called Sundarji doctrine...

The problem is that you are riding you favourite hobby horse.

You don't read the posts that I write. .

I have posted Gen Oberoi's article in Salute out here and should you care to read that you would know what I am talking about!

You apparently do not understand what is, what you call as Sunderjee Doctrine, and what is Cold Start. Since you are so fixated with names. lets call it Bipin Joshi Doctrine!

[nelson]

Short Service Commission to handle the vacancies in Officer cadre of Indian army is a viable option, if and only if the Officer have an option/chance for PC throughout. Else the "fire", as mentioned by Ray sir is doused and the person becomes a passenger only at a younger age and service.
Other options for the govt/organisation
1. To reduce the mandatory colour service to fifteen years or till non empanelment in the selection board for the rank of colonel whichever is earlier.
2. Honourable(financially) exit policies with pension for war wounded and disabled officers who are otherwise unfit for service.

With roughly 35%(only) selection rate in the first board, 1 and 2 above implemented along with real (real) rehabilitation assistance for such officers should help keep the cadre slim and fit in the middle and top.
Simultaneous increase in intake (should increase in quality and quantity when bottlenecks in mid-career are visibly removed) will gradually eclipse the present shortfall over a period of many years.

[RayC]

The only way Short Service Commission can be made attractive is if there is a guarantee commensurate job given after the contractual service.

One would be damned to accept a job (unless desperate) where in mid stream in the prime of one's youth or should I say, neither here nor there, to be left fending for oneself once again!

And more so having had the ecstatic feeling of being a person on whose decision the fate of people depends. It is a powerful feeling with a huge amount of responsibility. It has to be experienced to be understood and also the despondency and guilt that a wrong decision gives that can never be washed off in a lifetime.

It is not like file pushing of bureaucrats or working with inanimate inputs of other professionals who think that they know all. Ask the chap who has to work it out with the trade unions in Bengal. The come close to what is leadership as the Army sees it. They have the advantage that they Army does not have - they can buy the Union leaders!

[Rahul M]

.

I have posted Gen Oberoi's article in Salute out here and should you care to read that you would know what I am talking about!
........

RayC sir, may I have the links to that article ??
seem to have missed it.
thanks.

[Mohan G]

I would not comment on the US system since the parameters are different and personally I am not enamoured by foreign equivalents. I am concerned about India and I care less for what others are doing, more so in fields that are not similar to our requirement. Weren't you the one who was over nationalist? What happened that you have changed tack?

I am being very much nationalistic - I am criticizing SSB for what I consider their unfair rejection of a large number of Indian applicants. By using academic measures, I am trying to show what kind of candidate is selected in other countries. Then I raise the question why does the SSB insist on a much higher level of 'talent' in India.

[somnath]

RayC, I did read Gen Oberoi's note - barring a single allusion to the "political leadership and its civilian advisors", there isnt a lot of detail on how the IAS lobby can "block" the adoption of an operational doctrine..

Short Service Commission to handle the vacancies in Officer cadre of Indian army is a viable option, if and only if the Officer have an option/chance for PC throughout. Else the "fire", as mentioned by Ray sir is doused and the person becomes a passenger only at a younger age and service.
Other options for the govt/organisation
1. To reduce the mandatory colour service to fifteen years or till non empanelment in the selection board for the rank of colonel whichever is earlier.
2. Honourable(financially) exit policies with pension for war wounded and disabled officers who are otherwise unfit for service.

With roughly 35%(only) selection rate in the first board, 1 and 2 above implemented along with real (real) rehabilitation assistance for such officers should help keep the cadre slim and fit in the middle and top.
Simultaneous increase in intake (should increase in quality and quantity when bottlenecks in mid-career are visibly removed) will gradually eclipse the present shortfall over a period of many years.

That is a real challenge of the "detail". One has put in some of course in the earlier pages..

Consider the following for a basic SSC structure:

1. 20-21 years age group
2. Univ graduate
3. 6 months - 1 year trng
4. Tenor of service - 5 years

After 5 years, the officer is given a "golden handshake", of (say) 10 lacs....this would be good enough seed capital for him to get a decent tertiary education - @ 25, he is the "right" age for a tertiary eduction..When he graduates, he would have work ex, a tertiary degree - should be snapped up in the pvt sector pretty easily in this age of talent shortage..Plus he would have some savingss of his own...

[somnath]

.

I have posted Gen Oberoi's article in Salute out here and should you care to read that you would know what I am talking about!
........

RayC sir, may I have the links to that article ??
seem to have missed it.
thanks.

http://www.salute.co.in/110109/col_Vijay%20oberoi.html

[RayC]

.

I have posted Gen Oberoi's article in Salute out here and should you care to read that you would know what I am talking about!
........

RayC sir, may I have the links to that article ??
seem to have missed it.
thanks.

Rahul.

Dont think this is plug. but since you are so keen on the Armed Forces, why don't you subscribe to this magazine 'Salute to the Indian soldier'

COLUMNS
Cold Start

VIJAY OBEROI

Lt Gen Vijay Oberoi retired as the Vice Chief of Army Staff and was a former Director of the Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS)

Following the Mumbai mayhem of 26 November, the Pakistani army and the Pakistani government unleashed their hysterical outbursts and propaganda to hoodwink their masses to save at least a bit of their skin from being permanently singed. The quality of propaganda, was as bad as the exercise in sabre-rattling that has now become Pakistan’s trade mark. It further reinforced the perception in India, of a country on the verge of becoming a failed state. However, this piece is not about propaganda or hysteria, but the reasons for the panic in the Pakistani army, which resulted in troops being moved all over the place, from the west to the east and precious aviation fuel being wasted by its air force, flying aimlessly over its cities! Discerning analysts throughout the world could smell the fear emanating from all these utterances and moves. Of course, when a country chooses to be in a permanent denial mode, despite evidence to the contrary, the only option left to it is jingoism of the shrillest variety.


Ever since the Indian media publicised ‘Cold Start’ as a new doctrine adopted by the Indian military post ‘Operation Parakram’ of 2001-02, the Pakistani army establishment has been unable to fathom how to cope with it and hence the panic, as manifested in the current situation. While it would be good to keep the Pakistani army on tenterhooks perpetually, but then why not enlighten them so that they understand what they are in for. They may then be able to decide that taking on the likes of the LeT, Jaish-e-Muhammad and other such terrorist jihadi organisations that are flourishing in Pakistan, is a better option than facing the Indian military!


The ‘Cold Start’ doctrine was actually evolved much earlier than “Operation Parakram”. It was the outcome of an extremely high level tri-service exercise that was planned and organised by the Indian Army at the national level, when the late General Joshi was the Army Chief and I was his DGMO. The year was 1994 and this exercise had been conducted not just at the inter-services level but also at the national level. The first phase of the exercise dealt with the mobilisation of forces for a conflict or war. One of the conclusions arrived at related to the need for ensuring strategic surprise, which could not be guaranteed with the kind of mobilisation the defence forces and the nation was used to, till then.


While the above was the genesis of the “Cold Start” doctrine, the defence forces could not formally adopt it on account of the pusillanimous response of the political leadership and their civilian advisers, who either did not understand the valid reasons for it or were unable to accept a situation where war could start without a long period of preparation, discussions and committee meetings. It was only when the defence forces, particularly the army, were taking a long time in getting fully mobilised in 2001-02 that the full import of not changing our antiquated system was fully appreciated and thereafter implemented.


There were two main planks of the new doctrine. Firstly, there was a need to earmark forces that could be launched as soon as a decision was taken and secondly simultaneously, set all the wheels in motion for bringing in the additional forces, which were meant to launch through or in proximity of the gains made by the in-situ forces to carry the war forward and deeper into enemy territory. Consequently, it does not help for the Indian military to rattle its sabers, like the Pakistani military is so used to. Instead, the troops carry out the minimum essential immediate mobilisation, without any fuss or trumpeting what they are doing. Thereafter, the in-situ forces launch themselves at the appropriate time, which is of their own choosing.
http://www.salute.co.in/110109/col_Vijay%20oberoi.html

[RayC]

I would not comment on the US system since the parameters are different and personally I am not enamoured by foreign equivalents. I am concerned about India and I care less for what others are doing, more so in fields that are not similar to our requirement. Weren't you the one who was over nationalist? What happened that you have changed tack?

I am being very much nationalistic - I am criticizing SSB for what I consider their unfair rejection of a large number of Indian applicants. By using academic measures, I am trying to show what kind of candidate is selected in other countries. Then I raise the question why does the SSB insist on a much higher level of 'talent' in India.

Why do you think the SSB is unfair?

Do you really believe that the Army is a foreign piece of establishment that hates India?

If so, why are they dying to keep you safe.

We are equally keen as you are, to prove that we are true Indians and our lives are paltry as sacrifice if India is to be kept safe.

Your statement indeed hurts!

[RayC]

RayC, I did read Gen Oberoi's note - barring a single allusion to the "political leadership and its civilian advisors", there isnt a lot of detail on how the IAS lobby can "block" the adoption of an operational doctrine..

Give me another one!

Are you an IAS chap that you are such a cheer leader for them?

How they can stop?

A stupid noting that wars are fought in daylight as history has proved by an idiot IAS chap nearly scuttled the procurement of the 81mm Illuminating ammunition!

That is how they can stop!

And the pliant IAS can further the politician's career and lobbying and not the Army!

[somnath]

RayC, I did read Gen Oberoi's note - barring a single allusion to the "political leadership and its civilian advisors", there isnt a lot of detail on how the IAS lobby can "block" the adoption of an operational doctrine..

Give me another one!

Are you an IAS chap that you are such a cheer leader for them?

How they can stop?

A stupid noting that wars are fought in daylight as history has proved by an idiot IAS chap nearly scuttled the procurement of the 81mm Illuminating ammunition!

That is how they can stop!

And the pliant IAS can further the politician's career and lobbying and not the Army!

No, I am not! I am not cheer leading them at all, if you read my earlier posts..I think they are a decaying bunch thanks to the 50% quota...

But you obvioulsy miss my point - I said that the IAS guys do meddle in procurement decisions. Has the Army asked for anything different for Cold start in terms of procurement as compared what it was earlier? If yes, would be interesting to know the details..Becacuse there is nothing that at least I caught on in the public domain..

You apparently do not understand what is, what you call as Sunderjee Doctrine, and what is Cold Start. Since you are so fixated with names. lets call it Bipin Joshi Doctrine!

I dont think so! The so called, and I use the so-called deliberately, Sundarji doctrine is revolved around the strike corps punching a hole across the Rajasthan border, trying to cut Pakistan into half by cuttign off its north-south link...Brass Stacks was all about that, wasnt it? Cold Start is quite different - in terms of pure philosopy, it simply seeks to "destroy" Paki war machine, and has very limited territorial amibitions..

[Mohan G]

Why do you think the SSB is unfair?

Do you really believe that the Army is a foreign piece of establishment that hates India?

If so, why are they dying to keep you safe.

We are equally keen as you are, to prove that we are true Indians and our lives are paltry as sacrifice if India is to be kept safe.

Your statement indeed hurts!

If I hurt your feelings, I am sorry.

Personally I have no grudge against the SSB. They selected me.

However, the point remains that the officer shortage in the armed forces is not a new thing. It was there even when the armed forces were considered a good career option. It was there even before the economic liberalization process started in India.

So the question is, again, why is the SSB rejecting so many candidates. I sincerely believe they want too high a 'quality' of candidates. I will be less than honest if I do not say I suspect they want candidates of a certain 'mold', that they can easily cast into their structural framework.

Let me emphasize again that today we cannot get the same 'quality' candidates for the military as we could forty years back. There were fewer job options then, now the field is much more open. But at the same time, school education has become much more widespread. Today's students are, in general, more hard working than their parents or grandparents were in their times. So, the pool of qualified candidates available has also become bigger. IMHO there should not be much difficulty in getting good quality candidates.

[Mohan G]

Are you an IAS chap that you are such a cheer leader for them?

No, I am not! I am not cheer leading them at all, if you read my earlier posts..I think they are a decaying bunch thanks to the 50% quota...

If someone who questions the wisdom offered by military officers and does not take all they say as complete truth is criticized as being an IAS officer, then it makes me think the IAS officers may be doing something right!

But what do I know!

[somnath]

Mohan G, purely anecdotal, so not basing an argument on that...I do think that SSB has "lowered" its standards from earlier..Just interacting with some of the cadets to the NDA displays that...I guess the "PC" standards cant be lowered any more, in fact they probably need to go up..You surely need much better "qiuality" of people than what our grandfathers were to manage our nukes! The SSC is where there is an "opportunity" to lower "standards"...

My point is most officers would retire @ Lt Col..A large number of those serving in ASC, Postal service, Military Police etc dont even have to to be of any exceptional quality at all..And the qualaities required from an infantry platoon commander is very different from a brigadier or a division Maj Gen..Or for that matter a Major commanding an Agni missile battery! The PC would take in officers required for these roles..

[Mohan G]

^^^ Not sure what you mean by the need for much higher 'quality' officers for managing our nukes or missiles.

I thought the main prerequisite is the psychological stability. Otherwise, is setting coordinates on a computer (most probably they would already be preset), and pressing the 'fire' button that complex ?

I thought the main work of designing, developing, testing, and deploying is done by scientists, engineers, and technicians, not by NDA-trained 'generalist' officers.

Ok, maybe engineers in defence forces have some role here. But as a user, it couldn't be very complex.

And, I am sure, the grandfathers of today's generation of officers were smart. They didn't have the machines we have today else they would also have mastered them.

I wouldn't like my children to think of their grandfather as not being smart just because he is slow in using the computer. I do know he is smart.

[RayC]

Somnath,

The Sundarjee Doctrine as you call it is old as Mohenjodaro in military terms,

The Purchase Negotiation Committee has no Army officer. It is totally a political and bureaucratic realm!

Army does with what it has. Reinvent the wheel, so to say, given the apathy of the IAS overlords and the political Pavlovian dog Ministers.

The so called Sundarjee Doctrine is based on an all out war, with no political wimpishness. But then, there is always the political wimpishness and it is no go.

Gen Bipin Joshi realised the problem and he was a visionary man. He formulated the Cold War doctrine, and that was cold storaged by the ‘visionary’ IAS and their fool Minister. It surfaced only because Pakistan slapped the idiots in the Parliament and hence those kurta pyjama fools of Ministers!

[RayC]

Somnath/ Mohan G,

Then SSB standards, as far as I know, has not been lowered.

What I understand is that whereas in the earlier time at the 80% acceptable standard, the candidates got selected as per the requirement, now they have to scrape the bottom of the barrel!

It is ridiculous to feel that ASC officers are any less competent than any others. Each has their role and they have their own uniqueness. Try being a convoy commander from Pathankot to Leh 24 x 7! That is one part of the ASC! So., Let us not downplay their yeoman service!

For Christ’s sake quit acting as if you know what is the QR for a Brigadier and that for the Platoon/ Company / Battalion Commander.

It is time you understand that the Postal people are from the Postal Department and on Deputation and not from the Army cadre as such!

To order the firing of a nuke does not require technical expertise! One has to be just strategically and politically savvy!

[Mohan G]

An interesting - though I would say a little pessimistic and long - account of West Point academy.

I reproduce what that author says about the toppers: Just goes to show that what the Academy thought to be the 'best' material did not actually turn out to be so in the long run. That is why I am a little skeptical about searching for high 'quality' candidates based on an exam+test. The 'quality' that emerges later may have little correlation to the SAT scores or even to the rank in the Academy. In the cases quoted, the long-run results certainly did not match even the assessment made after four years of Academy.

I wonder how does the situation look for our NDA. Do the cadets topping their batch end up in high positions later ?

Would you like to know what happened to the top three cadet officers in the Class of 1965—the guys whom we cadets back then assumed would become Chief of Staff if anyone would?

First Captain Bob Arvin: Killed in action on 10/8/67 in Vietnam, awarded two silver stars and a purple heart
First Regimental Commander Mark Walsh: Retired as a colonel
Second Regimental Commander (star man) Buddy Bucha: Resigned in 1972 as a captain after winning the Congressional Medal of Honor in Vietnam

In my own Class of 1968, where we had four rather than two regimental commanders because of an increase in the size of the student body, the career results were:

Cadet first captain: Retired as a lieutenant colonel
1st regimental cadet commander: Retired as a lieutenant colonel
2nd regimental cadet commander: Resigned as a captain after five-year graduation commitment
3rd regimental cadet commander: Killed in action in Vietnam on 7/21/70
4th regimental cadet commander: Killed in action in Vietnam on 7/15/69

Lieutenant colonel is the lowest rank you can retire from normally. So the first captain and 1st regimenal commander in my class apparently had minimal success as career officers. The Class of 1965 first regimenal commander was one notch up from that retiring as a full colonel. As cadets, we expeted those guys would retire as four-star generals.

One reason I quote material from the US sources is that it is so easily available. In India if one asks for data regarding regional or communal composition of the military many people feel as though the nation's integrity is under attack.

[Jagan]

Hi All, this thread will soon be renamed to "Questionning the Army's Methodologies" to carry on the discussions that are going on in the past few pages. A New Indian Army Discussion thread will be started shortly to carry out the 'rest'