^^^ RayC,
You haven't answered one point. If everything was all right earlier, why did we have persistent shortage of officers even then?
About ASC, their role is a supportive one. I do not understand why should the top cadets in NDA choose ASC. This is analogous to top rankers in civil services ignoring IFS/IAS/IPS/IRS and going in for Postal Service or Railway Account Service {no disrespect to the Postal/Account services}.
That is why, unlike ASPuar and many others here, I feel there should be some positive discrimination in favor of the Arms. We may not classify it in terms of "ready to combat"/"not ready to combat", but (with due respect) I feel that the Arms deserve to be recognized at a higher level than the Services.
Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
@Somnath:
At the expense of repeating myself, I'm reposting the example as to why the SSC base can never be the majority %age of the Officer Cadre. Please do tell me how you intend to get around this practical aspect.
Let me give you an example. The 102(I) Bde or more famously known as the Siachen Bde is known to require logistic support equivalent of a Infantry Division. ASC has an Air Maintenance Unit in Chandigarh which in unison with IAF tpt sqn supports this formation round the clock, through out the year. Can you imagine the complex supply chain and inventory management that the men from this unit undertake? Everyday, the ASC dispatch officer wakes up at 2 in the morning, checks the stores to be airlifted (which would have been prepared in advance),checks the situation with the IAF Tpt. Sqn pilots and finally when all is clear, flies with them to leh and comes back in the afternoon. You think it would require a less talented men to undertake the logistics of as big a army as ours and spread over as vast an area? The Infantry and Armour are the tip of the spear supported by a long shaft made of these support arms. It is shaft which ensures that the tip can be struck hard and struck deep. Remove/degrade the shaft, the tip is practically useless.
PS: THe big retailers like the Reliance have taken men from ASC and Ordinance Corps for operatioal roles at senior level and is paying op dollar. Any guess why? These men have seen and managed far more complex inventories and supply chain systems then anyone else out there. At least, Pvt.sector won't pay top dollar to less smart people.
Bottom line is this:
1. The SSC cadre cannot be the majority of the Officer Corps. They can supplement the PC Cadre as was the case earlier but that is all there to it.
2. The talk of differential pay grade for SSC and PC officers is preposterous to say the least. Two people doing the same job cannot be paid differently.
3. Finally, each person in the IA in different arms is doing equally important job. They are all part of well oiled machine. Take away any one of them and the machine simply wont do what it was made for.
At the expense of repeating myself, I'm reposting the example as to why the SSC base can never be the majority %age of the Officer Cadre. Please do tell me how you intend to get around this practical aspect.
Also, by repeating ad-nauseum that one service or the other does not require high grade officer because of the work they do, is betraying your lack of knowledge of the way IA functions. Why do you think one job is more important than the other? The support arms of the IA ensure that IA can initiate and sustain operations. The CO of an Infantry battalion is responsibe for 850 men under his command. The COs of the Div ASC and Ordinance Units are not only responsible for their own men but also ensuring that 16000 other men in their division do not go with out food, water, stores and ammunitions and that too in the heat of the battle. Any brilliant plan made by a GOC will come to naught if he is not supported by able COs from his Ordinance and ASC units.Who do you think ensured IA could induct and maintain the men and machines in the Kargil theater. Napolean famously said, 'An Army marches on its stomach'. It is these men who ensure that that stomach is full.Practicality of SSC expansion:
Let’s evaluate the practical aspect of the suggestion with an example:
1. Each Infantry unit has an authorized strength of 21+1 (attached-RMO) officers.
2.The division of this strength between various ranks may look like this (this is a guess estimate, please provide more accurate info if someone has one; RayC Sir?):
Col/Lt.Col/Majors (Senior-Junior: 12-6years)/Captains (Senior-Junior: 2-5years)/Lt.: 1/1/5/8/6
3.Now assume, our Infantry Unit is part of a Regiment of 10 battalions.
4.In all, they’ll be 50 posts to be filled by Majors (various seniorities) and 80 to be filled by Captains (differing seniorities).
The staff appointments/Instruction level requirement for each level has not been considered.
5.Since, SSC Officers leave service at the end of 5years, to fill the 50 post held by Major rank officer(6years of service required), you’ll need at the minimum 50 Captains from PC Cadre. This is 63% of the total strength at Captain Level. The PC cadre will always remain a majority.
Let me give you an example. The 102(I) Bde or more famously known as the Siachen Bde is known to require logistic support equivalent of a Infantry Division. ASC has an Air Maintenance Unit in Chandigarh which in unison with IAF tpt sqn supports this formation round the clock, through out the year. Can you imagine the complex supply chain and inventory management that the men from this unit undertake? Everyday, the ASC dispatch officer wakes up at 2 in the morning, checks the stores to be airlifted (which would have been prepared in advance),checks the situation with the IAF Tpt. Sqn pilots and finally when all is clear, flies with them to leh and comes back in the afternoon. You think it would require a less talented men to undertake the logistics of as big a army as ours and spread over as vast an area? The Infantry and Armour are the tip of the spear supported by a long shaft made of these support arms. It is shaft which ensures that the tip can be struck hard and struck deep. Remove/degrade the shaft, the tip is practically useless.
PS: THe big retailers like the Reliance have taken men from ASC and Ordinance Corps for operatioal roles at senior level and is paying op dollar. Any guess why? These men have seen and managed far more complex inventories and supply chain systems then anyone else out there. At least, Pvt.sector won't pay top dollar to less smart people.
Bottom line is this:
1. The SSC cadre cannot be the majority of the Officer Corps. They can supplement the PC Cadre as was the case earlier but that is all there to it.
2. The talk of differential pay grade for SSC and PC officers is preposterous to say the least. Two people doing the same job cannot be paid differently.
3. Finally, each person in the IA in different arms is doing equally important job. They are all part of well oiled machine. Take away any one of them and the machine simply wont do what it was made for.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
A point for MohanG & Somnath - There have been many reports in the newspapers in US in last 4-5 years that suggest that the army had and continues to have lowered standards for recruitment... So maybe the data before the war on terror started might be a better measure than 2006-2007 data...
I would again ask, why would we look at the pattern in US and then compare it to India... US has much better infrastructre to train its manpower including a vast number of community colleges with good infrastructure and in many respects they are qualitatively & culturally different than US... and by qualitatively I don't mean to say that they are better... I don't think that the comparison would be fair because apart from huge amount of money that they throw at defence, I have not seen anything that would suggest that their military is better or more effective.
JM2P
I would again ask, why would we look at the pattern in US and then compare it to India... US has much better infrastructre to train its manpower including a vast number of community colleges with good infrastructure and in many respects they are qualitatively & culturally different than US... and by qualitatively I don't mean to say that they are better... I don't think that the comparison would be fair because apart from huge amount of money that they throw at defence, I have not seen anything that would suggest that their military is better or more effective.
JM2P
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
^^^ Here is the profile for the class of 2004. It doesn't look much different from that of class of 2012.
IIRC the reports of standards being lowered were for the subordinate soldiers, not for officers.
I am not making a direct comparison, all I am saying is that if a quarter of US military officers (from their most prestigious Academy USMA, not to speak of ROTC and OCS cadres) have an 'academic merit' of 60 percentile or below, then should we not wonder why our 80-90 percentile candidates fail to get into our Academies (someone has posted an anecdote on the thread earlier about the percentiles of his classmates who applied for and got into NDA).
I would say, offhand, is that US officers are also quite competent. It makes no sense to compare them to Indian officers and judge them better or worse.
And you are strengthening my argument by saying that the US has better training infrastructure. If adding some more infrastructure to our Academies means we will be able to reject less candidates, train more candidates, and train them better, then I am all for it. We have a shortage of officers, we cannot wait to remedy the situation.
Incidentally, a second SSC training academy is soon going to be opened in India.
IIRC the reports of standards being lowered were for the subordinate soldiers, not for officers.
I am not making a direct comparison, all I am saying is that if a quarter of US military officers (from their most prestigious Academy USMA, not to speak of ROTC and OCS cadres) have an 'academic merit' of 60 percentile or below, then should we not wonder why our 80-90 percentile candidates fail to get into our Academies (someone has posted an anecdote on the thread earlier about the percentiles of his classmates who applied for and got into NDA).
I would say, offhand, is that US officers are also quite competent. It makes no sense to compare them to Indian officers and judge them better or worse.
And you are strengthening my argument by saying that the US has better training infrastructure. If adding some more infrastructure to our Academies means we will be able to reject less candidates, train more candidates, and train them better, then I am all for it. We have a shortage of officers, we cannot wait to remedy the situation.
Incidentally, a second SSC training academy is soon going to be opened in India.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Aid to Civil Authority in US - no questions heard about incompetence of civil authorities.
Seven deaths, 4600 troops called to assist.
Seven deaths, 4600 troops called to assist.
LOUISVILLE, Kentucky (CNN) -- National Guard troops were going door to door Sunday in Kentucky, checking on families in the worst-hit areas of what Gov. Steve Beshear called "the biggest natural disaster that this state has ever experienced in modern history."
John Randolph moves fallen branches at his home in the Louisville, Kentucky, area Sunday.
The devastating ice storm has been blamed for at least seven deaths in Kentucky, Beshear said. In total, 21 deaths have been reported in the state since the storm hit on Tuesday, but authorities could not immediately confirm whether all were directly storm-related.
The "unprecedented" call-up of the National Guard includes 4,600 troops in various roles.
...
Re: Indian Army Discussion
I remember some time back there were a few posts about the name for ASC. Today, I learnt the new name for ASC is “Sena Seva Corps”.
Link17. New Designation. The designation of the Corps has now been changed to “Sena Seva Corps”.
Re: Indian Army Discussion
The Colour Service was 7 years not so many years back.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
RayC, Rohitvats,
It is not about "denigrating" the skills required of an ASC officer - it is about "skills matching". The skills required to manage a logistics chain (ASC), or security & policing (military police) are very different from the skills required for divisional command, or command over nuclear weapons...For example in a Bank, most of the guys operating the back office would be typically ordinary grads (or post grads), while people in product structuring or general management or investments would be typically from the IIMs. Does not mean that the back office is unimportant, in fact the banking system would close down if they didnt operate absolutely flawlessly, but that the skills required are very different.
the skills required for handling nuclear weapons are quite apart from the skills required to manage the ASC..In fact most countries, inclduing Pakistan, have set up specialised cadre to manage their nukes..India still has a generalist staff managing its nukes, but it should change sometime..the "profile" of these opeople would be very different in terms of psychology, proficiency with basic electronics etc..The first courses drawn up by the BARC for the SFC threw up quite a few surprises in terms of skills gaps..Ditto for DIPAC - analysisng satellite imagery, meshing multiple sources (like UAVs, sats, assorted ELINT) into one "view" to make sense of a "pretty picture" is a very different skill set..
Some "preview" of the kind of people manning the strategic rocket forces of Russia..
http://www.fas.org/news/russia/1995/druma076_s96001.htm
@Rohitvats,
First, I am not saying "pay" differentially for SSC and PC..See the earlier posts on this..The pay grades remain the same till (say) Captain, which is when the SSC guys move on with their golden handshakes..the pay grades improve majorly from the next level onwards compared to today..
About your example - I made the point earlier that to start with the services are already "top heavy" - jobs done by lower ranks are today being done by higher ranks simply because there are more "higher ranks" that need to be accomodated..So this has to accompany a reorg and "thinning out" of the pyramid...
Taking an example of a battalion - about 5 companies, about 20 platoons?? Would require 1 Lt col, 5 majors, 20 Captains/Lts...You can (in the equilibrium state) have about 12-15 SSC cadre officers in the Lt/Captain ranks, and 5-8 from the PC...These 5-8 would provide the necessary "raw material" for the 5 Majors and 1 Lt col in the next stage..Given that you have already created a much leaner PC, you would have "better quality" to choose them from...you have therefore got more officers @ Lt/Captain level per unit, and you have created a PC that you can subsequently pay much better, say from Lt Col onwards, when they really take up command positions/specialised tasks...
this is a very rudimentary exercise, in the real world, it will be much more exhaustive - but the drift is there..
It is about matching skills to jobs, not insisting that every job in the services requires the "same" OLQs..If commercial organsiations started thinking that way, they would only look to recruit from the IIMs for their managerial cadre and from the IITs for their technical cadre - fact is that there are only so few in the IITs and IIMs!!!
It is not about "denigrating" the skills required of an ASC officer - it is about "skills matching". The skills required to manage a logistics chain (ASC), or security & policing (military police) are very different from the skills required for divisional command, or command over nuclear weapons...For example in a Bank, most of the guys operating the back office would be typically ordinary grads (or post grads), while people in product structuring or general management or investments would be typically from the IIMs. Does not mean that the back office is unimportant, in fact the banking system would close down if they didnt operate absolutely flawlessly, but that the skills required are very different.
the skills required for handling nuclear weapons are quite apart from the skills required to manage the ASC..In fact most countries, inclduing Pakistan, have set up specialised cadre to manage their nukes..India still has a generalist staff managing its nukes, but it should change sometime..the "profile" of these opeople would be very different in terms of psychology, proficiency with basic electronics etc..The first courses drawn up by the BARC for the SFC threw up quite a few surprises in terms of skills gaps..Ditto for DIPAC - analysisng satellite imagery, meshing multiple sources (like UAVs, sats, assorted ELINT) into one "view" to make sense of a "pretty picture" is a very different skill set..
Some "preview" of the kind of people manning the strategic rocket forces of Russia..
http://www.fas.org/news/russia/1995/druma076_s96001.htm
@Rohitvats,
First, I am not saying "pay" differentially for SSC and PC..See the earlier posts on this..The pay grades remain the same till (say) Captain, which is when the SSC guys move on with their golden handshakes..the pay grades improve majorly from the next level onwards compared to today..
About your example - I made the point earlier that to start with the services are already "top heavy" - jobs done by lower ranks are today being done by higher ranks simply because there are more "higher ranks" that need to be accomodated..So this has to accompany a reorg and "thinning out" of the pyramid...
Taking an example of a battalion - about 5 companies, about 20 platoons?? Would require 1 Lt col, 5 majors, 20 Captains/Lts...You can (in the equilibrium state) have about 12-15 SSC cadre officers in the Lt/Captain ranks, and 5-8 from the PC...These 5-8 would provide the necessary "raw material" for the 5 Majors and 1 Lt col in the next stage..Given that you have already created a much leaner PC, you would have "better quality" to choose them from...you have therefore got more officers @ Lt/Captain level per unit, and you have created a PC that you can subsequently pay much better, say from Lt Col onwards, when they really take up command positions/specialised tasks...
this is a very rudimentary exercise, in the real world, it will be much more exhaustive - but the drift is there..
It is about matching skills to jobs, not insisting that every job in the services requires the "same" OLQs..If commercial organsiations started thinking that way, they would only look to recruit from the IIMs for their managerial cadre and from the IITs for their technical cadre - fact is that there are only so few in the IITs and IIMs!!!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
DELETED in FULL!!
Last edited by somnath on 02 Feb 2009 13:09, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Indian Army Discussion
^ Kakkaji,
There is reservation of seats for ex-servicemen in various cadres of central government.
This link tells what is being done by various state governments. For example:
Now, some people often argue against quotas. What about quotas for ex-servicemen? From their perspective, shouldn't only an age-relaxation suffice? If the ex-servicemen are talented, as we claim, shouldn't they be able to succeed on their own 'merit' ?
There is reservation of seats for ex-servicemen in various cadres of central government.
SourceReservations for Ex-Servicemen in Government Jobs
The Central Government has reserved 10 per cent of Group "C" posts and 20 per cent of Group "D" posts for ex-Servicemen. Central Public Sector Undertakings and Nationalised Banks provide 14.5 percent reservation in group "C" and 24.5 percent in Group "D" posts to ex-Servicemen. Ten percent posts of Assistant Commandants in Para-Military Forces are also reserved for ex-Servicemen. In addition, most of the Statement Governments except the states of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, J&K, Kerala and Meghalaya are providing reservations to ex-Servicemen in the State Government jobs.
Relaxation in Age
Ex-servicemen have been provided age relaxation to the extent of military service plus three years against reserved/unreserved vacancies in Group "C" and group "D" posts, and also in Group "A" and "B" posts which are filled otherwise than by way of competitive examinations. The age relaxation is restricted to five years in Group "A" and Group "B" posts which are filled by competitive examinations.
This link tells what is being done by various state governments. For example:
Of course, as with all government programs, proper implementation may be a problem.MAHARASHTRA
General
1. 15% Horizontal Reservation in group ‘C’ and ‘D’ posts. (Auth : Govt of Maharashtra resolution No RTS/1079/0/482/XVI dated 03 Jul 80).
2. Relaxation of age for Group ‘C’ and ‘D’ posts by years of service plus 3 years (Auth : Govt of Maharashtra resolution No RTS/1079/0/482/XVI dated 16 Apr 80).
3. Cash grants & cash in lieu of land to the Gallantry/Non Gallantry Award winners (PVC, AC, SYSM, MVC, KC, UYSM, VrC, SC, YSM, SM, NM, VM, Mention-in-Dispatches, PVSM, AVSM, VSM) since independence from Rs. 12,000/- to Rs. 1,72,500/-.(Auth : Govt of Maharashtra Resolution No Shop pur-2000/303/P.K 31 (2000)/28 dated 03 Jul 2000) .
4. Ex-gratia grant of Rs. 2 Lakh to the NOK/dependents of Martyrs killed in action/any operation w.e.f. 01 May 1995 to 30 Apr 1999. (Auth : Govt of Maharashtra Resolution No Shankirn-1096/3330//P.K 220/96/28 dated 30 Mar 1999.
5. Ex-gratia grant of Rs. 5 Lakh to the NOK/dependents of Martyrs killed in action/any operation w.e.f. 01 May 1999. (Auth : Govt of Maharashtra Resolution No Masem-1099/1661/PK 126/99/28 dated 04 Oct 2000).
6. Financial assistance of Rs. 1 Lakh (20% to 49% disability) and Rs. 3 lakh (50% and above disability) to the disabled soldiers in any operation w.e.f. 01 May 1999. (Auth : Govt of Maharashtra Resolution No Masem-1099/1661/PK 126/99/28 dated 04 Oct 2000).
7. World War II veterans are given Rs. 1,275/- p.m. as financial assistance. (Auth: Govt of Maharashtra Resolution No Masem-2004/PK 120/2004/28 dated 30 Mar 2005).
8. Rs. 1,000/- p.m. to widow or parents of Posthumously gallantry award winners. (Auth : Govt of Maharashtra Resolution No Shop pur-2000/303/P.K 31 (2000)/28 dated 03 Jul 2000).
9. Free education facilities are available for the dependents of killed in action, wounded in action, gallantry awardees and also for the dependents of ESM upto the rank of Major, excl professional colleges or tech instituites.
10. Reservation of 5 percent seats limited to maximum 5 in Govt Medical College, Engg College, Agriculture College, and Polytechnic & ITI. (3% reserved for service personnel) (Auth : Govt of Maharashtra Resolution No Masem-2001/2531/PK/231/2001/28 dated 21 Mar 2002).
11. Exemption from payment of examination/application fee for the MPSC. (Auth : Govt of Maharashtra resolution No RTS/1079/0/482/XVI dated 03 Jul 80).
12. Rent control Act and Land Tenancy Act have been amended to facilitate resumption of House/land by ESM.
13. 2 and 10 percent reservation in allotment of houses and house sites respectively. (Auth : Govt of Maharashtra resolution No AGN/1184(2388)/KA-9 dated 14 Jul 1966).
14. Special leave upto 7 days for medical review boards. (Auth : Govt of Maharashtra resolution No LVE-1482/CR-1422/SER-09 dated 24 May 83.
15. Free legal aid for settlement of disputes. (Auth : Govt of Maharashtra resolution No DFS-1063/10793-J dated 12 Dec 1963.
16. Maternity benefits for families of ESM – six cots have been reserved in KEM hospital, Pune.
BENEVOLENT FUND
17. The activities under this fund are monitored by the Executive Committee of Rajya Sainik Board, on behalf of RSB, in quarterly meeting held in a financial year under the Chairmanship of the Hon’ble Minister of Sainik Kalyan. This fund is utilised in giving financial assistance for the welfare of ex-Servicemen, widows/dependents as well as for resettlement of the retiring ex-Servicemen in the form of grants to aid their re-employment and self-employment ventures.
18. Subsidy/Interest subsidy of 10% or max Rs 17,000/- on loan upto Rs. 3 lakhs taken by the ESM for self-employment ventures.
19. Old age Financial grant upto Rs. 700 p.m. or Rs 8000/- one time for the ESM of 65 years/widows having no source of income.
20. One time assistance of Rs. 10,000/- to NOK of personnel killed in action/other operations including physical casualty.
21. Rs. 3,000/- for undergoing training for self-employment.
22. Rs. 3,000/- is given to ESM/widows for denture and hearing aids.
23. Financial assistance of Rs. 25,000/- and Rs. 50,000/- to the disabled soldiers having disability from 20% to 50% and above 50% respectively due to reasons other than war/operation (physical casualty) after retirement.
24. Rs. 3,000/- funeral grant for ex-Servicemen/widows.
25. Rs. 60,000/- and Rs. 50,000/- is given to the War Widows and Widows of physical casualty respectively for construction of house.
26. Education scholarship from Rs. 600/- to Rs. 7,000/- to the wards of ESM studying from XI std to post graduate and research level.
27. Reimbursement of tuition fee upto Rs. 10000/- to the children of ESM studying in professional recognized Govt institutions.
28. Upto Rs. 10000/- is given to the children of ESM studying out of State.
29. Rs. 500/- is given to the children of ESM studying in non grantable private school for Uniform allowance, Book allowance and tuition fees.
30. Rs. 25,000/- is given to children of ESM who are studying in foreign countries.
31. The children of ESM attending preparatory/pre-training course of UPSC, Bank and other competitive exams are paid 50 percent charges of the training fee upto Rs. 2000/- maximum.
32. The children of ESM who are studying in State Sainik Schools are given Financial Assistance of Rs 32,000/- for Sainik School Satara and Rs 15,000/- for other Govt recognized Sainik School.
33. The wards of ESM who have taken Driving Training are given reimbursement of 50 percent training fees maximum upto Rs. 1000/-.
34. Award of Rs. 5,000/- and Rs 10,000/- is given to the ESM/wife/widow of ESM/children of ESM who have performed outstanding activities in the field of sports, music, literature and dancing etc on National level and International level.
35. Financial Assistance of Rs. 20,000/- for addition/alteration of own house to the disabled soldiers having more than 65 percent disability w.e.f. 01 May 2002.
36. Financial assistance of Rs. 300/- p.m. to the ESM having blindness more than 65 percentage.
37. Incentive to children of ESM who are undergoing computer education in recognized Government institutes are given upto Rs. 4000/-.
38. Free medical aid in Govt hospitals/re-imbursement upto Rs. 40,000/- and Rs. 700/- p.m. for one year or Rs. 8,000/- one time for post operative treatment of major diseases i.e. Heart, Cancer, Renal, Paralysis.(Only for non pensioners ESMs/Widows after the operationalisation of ECHS).
39. House loan subsidy to the extent of 10 percent or maximum Rs. 10,000/- whichever is less.
40. Financial assistance for daughter’s marriage as follows :-
(a) One daughter of ESM - Rs 3,000/-
(a) Two daughter of disabled soldiers - Rs 4,000/-each
having Disability more than 50%
(c) Two daughters of widows of ESM - Rs 5,000/- each
(d) All daughters of war widows - Rs 10,000/- each
(e) All orphan daughters of ESM/widows - Rs 5,000/- each
41. Financial assistance to mentally retarded children of ESM as follows :-
(a) Medical treatment - Rs 250/-pm
(b) School going children - Rs 100/-pm
(b) Under going skilled educaton/trg for - Rs 500/-pm
Self emp.
(d) For self employment - 50% of loan or
Rs10,000/- whichever is less.
42. The boarding charges are reimbursed to the children of ESM studying in SPI Aurangabad (Officers ward- 50 percentage, Ward of JCOs - 75 percent and Ward of OR 100 percent).
43. Pocket money to the Wards of Offrs, JCOs and OR studying in NDA to the extent of 50%, 75% and 100% respectively.
44. Free bus travel upto 2500 KMs per year to war widows and gallantry award winners of chakra series (PVC, MVC, VrC, AC, KC, SC). (Auth :- Booklet on benevolent fund rule (revised) 2001 as amended.
45. Financial Assistance 50% of project amount or max of Rs 5.00 lacs for self emp to self help group of ESMs wife and widows.
46. Financial Assistance of Rs 3 ,000/- (for one eye) for eye operation (cataract) to ESM and their dependents.
47. Financial Assistance (Actual expenditure) for purchase of kubdi of disabled ESM.
48. Financial Assistance of Rs 1,000/-pm to disabled ESM staying in paraplegic centre Kirkee pune.
Benefits from Special fund
49. Queen Mary’s Technical School - Dependents of ex-Servicemen and disabled ex-Servicemen taking training in Queen Mary’s Technical School are re-imbursed full fee upto Rs. 1800/- per year
50. Hostel Fees - Dependents of ex-servicemen who do not get admission in military hostels or due to non-availability of hostels in particular station, staying in college/school hostels, is re-imbursed upto Rs. 300/- per months towards hostel fees.
51 Military Boys/Girls hostels :- There are 46 Military Boys/Girls hostel in Maharashtra where free accn is provided to the wards of ESM. Food charges are subsidized based on rank. For the wards of widow no food charges are levied.
52. Sainik Rest house.
Now, some people often argue against quotas. What about quotas for ex-servicemen? From their perspective, shouldn't only an age-relaxation suffice? If the ex-servicemen are talented, as we claim, shouldn't they be able to succeed on their own 'merit' ?
Re: Indian Army Discussion
Mohan G,
There are reservations indeed.
Are you aware that the physical standards expected is as for a 20 year old?
Cute way to eliminate!
Thanks for you information on Maharastra. I think I will migrate and hopefully Raju will not mind!
There are reservations indeed.
Are you aware that the physical standards expected is as for a 20 year old?
Cute way to eliminate!
Thanks for you information on Maharastra. I think I will migrate and hopefully Raju will not mind!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
I do wish what Somnath wrote so that I could have replied appropriately.
It is good to learn about life from armchair strategists.
It is good to learn about life from armchair strategists.
Re: Indian Army Discussion
^^^
Do you mean to say a 25 year old civilian is more meritorious than a 40 year old soldier? It seems that the reservations are for all posts, not only for those that need physical tests.
And I believe that an army soldier aged 40 years can pass the minimum requirements for the physical test for a constable (for example). There is no competition as to who can run 100 meters faster, it is merely a minimum physical requirement test.
Am I wrong in my belief?
BTW, who is this Raju ? Why should he (she ??) mind your personal choices ?
Do you mean to say a 25 year old civilian is more meritorious than a 40 year old soldier? It seems that the reservations are for all posts, not only for those that need physical tests.
And I believe that an army soldier aged 40 years can pass the minimum requirements for the physical test for a constable (for example). There is no competition as to who can run 100 meters faster, it is merely a minimum physical requirement test.
Am I wrong in my belief?
BTW, who is this Raju ? Why should he (she ??) mind your personal choices ?
Re: Indian Army Discussion
Mohan G,
the stuff mentioned aremostly for C and D services - not for retiring officers! But I agree, reservation of any kind is reprehensible....The idea should be "reskill" them, not reserve seats...
the stuff mentioned aremostly for C and D services - not for retiring officers! But I agree, reservation of any kind is reprehensible....The idea should be "reskill" them, not reserve seats...
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
^^^ You didn't miss anything. He has made that point earlier as well. And you didn't challenge him on his view at that time.
Re: Indian Army Discussion
I have been saying that there is some degree of discontent amongst officers in the armed forces today, and it is justified. Please read the following post which I found on a forum called XISF, by a member who has written about changing equivalencies. Any thoughts? Brig. Ray, sir, I am sure you have experienced this!
http://xisf.in/NNPA17.asp
http://xisf.in/NNPA17.asp
Why Do I Feel Cheated?
Lt Col A K Rai, Member XISF
Many people have asked me why do I feel cheated after having read my article "I Feel Cheated" in the Indian Defence Review and Sify .com. My answer:
All along my stay at RIMC, Dehradun and Training at National Defence Academy, Khadakwasla and Indian Military Academy, Dehradun I was informed by my seniors and the armed forces officers that the Officers of the Indian Army were at par with the IAS and certainly better than the IPS and that the Major (A rank attained after 13 Years of Service at that time) in the Army was equivalent to IAS officer with not less than 12 years of service an SP with not less than 15 years of service in the IPS. We were also told that where as the IAS Officers started his career at Rs. 700/- pm an army officer started his career with Rs.750/- pm
When I got commissioned into the Indian Army on 13 June 1981 I was thrilled to have been lucky enough to join this elite service.
I continued to live with this illusion till I was transferred to the Army Ordnance Corps after seven years as I had broken my knee ligament and medically downgraded. From the 7 SIKH Regt I was posted to Ordnance Depot, Shakusrbasti, New Delhi. Here my illusions were broken by the ground reality. All along we had been told that the JCOs were Class II gazetted officers. But here the JCOs were equated with non gazetted civilian employees. the equation as existing today vis a vis clerical cadre of the army and the civilian clerical cadre in the organizations having both the civilian and the armed forces personnel like the three services Headquarters, Ordnance depots etc is as given below :
Army Ranks (Clerical Ca Civilian Clerical Cadre
Sepoy, Lance Naik, Naik and Havildar Lower Division Clerk
Naib Subedar (Gazetted Rank) Upper Division Clerk (Non Gazetted Post)
Subedar (Gazetted rank) Upper Division Clerk & Office Supdt Grade -II
Subedar Major (Gazetted rank) Office Supdt Grade -I ( Non Gazetted Post)
I asked how? No body could answer. Then as luck would have it a civilian ordnance officer (a direct entry Class II gazetted who had joined the AOC in 1981) got promoted and became CSO and thus became equivalent to a major and also became senior to me as I was a Captain then. Now this was disturbing a person joining AOC as a civilian Class II officer with one promotion had become senior to an Army officer who had got two promotions (Lt and Capt). More importantly did he also became equivalent to a SP with not less than 15 years of service in IPS? There was something wrong somewhere. The truth was different? I started researching I read Reports of all the Pay commissions. The end result was that over the period starting right just a few years before independence the JCOs who were gazetted officers were degraded and made equivalent to non gazetted civilian employees. The officers were degraded two ranks and that is why we find Major Generals complaining that they with 32 y6ears of service are equivalent to Civilian officers with 18 years (now 14 Years) 0f service. Surprisingly some of the very knowledgeable officers have floated this myth that "the slow promotions in the armed forces are because of the steep pyramidical hierarchy".
Now before I go further, it is necessary for the readers especially armed forces officer as to the structure of the Group A Civil Services (Class- I, II , III and IV of yester years have been rechristened as Group A, Group B, Group C and Group D)has been . Like the army officers get promoted from a lower rank to a higher rank, The civilian officers get promoted from a lower Pay grade to a higher pay grade. Like the army has the same ranks for all the arms and services the Group A Civil services (including the postal and the accounts) have standard pay scales as follows. I have given the comparative table before the "upgadation of The Army ranks" took place in the early 1980s.
Civil Services Army
Pay Grade Years required for Promotion Rank Years required for Promotion
Junior Scale On Appt 2nd Lt On Appointment
Senior Time scale 4 years (Including Training Period) Lt 3 1/2 Years
Junior Administrative Grade 9 years Capt 7 1/2years
Selection Grade 13 Years Major 13 years
Higher Administrative Grade � Level II 14 years Lt Col 16 years
Higher Administrative Grade- Level I 18 years Col 20 years
Higher Administrative grades As per vacancy Brig, Maj Gen, Lt Gen As per vacancy
Secretary to Government of India As per vacancy Army Cdr As per vacancy
Cabinet Secretary As per vacancy COAS As per vacancy
By a look at the above table you will feel that in the initial years the promotions in the army are faster where as later the promotions in the civil services are faster. So what do I feel cheated about? Because the equation is not as given above but as given below:
Civil Services
Army
Pay Grade Years for Promotion Rank Years for Promotion
Junior Scale On Appointment 2nd Lt, Lt and Capt
Senior Time scale 4 years(including training period) Major 13 years
Junior Administrative Grade 9 years Lt Col 16 years
Selection Grade 13 Years Col 20 years
Higher Administrative Grade-Level II 14 years Brig 25 years
Higher Administrative Grade-Level I 18 years Maj Gen 32 years
Higher Administrative Grades As per vacancy Lt Gen As per vacancy
Secretary to Government of India As per vacancy Army commanders As per vacancy
Cabinet Secretary As per vacancy Chief of Army staff As per vacancy
It for any one to understand that the ranks in the armed forces have deliberately been degraded by equating first three ranks of the Indian army with the lowest pay grade of the civilian Group A services and by dividing the officers in the rank of Lt Gen into Army Cdrs and equivalent other Lt Gens.
The mechanism of the degradation can be clearly seen in Para 2.3.9 Page 73 and 74 of the "Report of the Sixth Central Pay commission where till Third Pay Commission the equation of the first four ranks of army was as follows:
Junior Scale 2nd Lt and Lt
Senior Time scale Capt and Major
And at the time of Fifth central Pay Commission as follows
Junior Scale 2nd Lt, Lt and Capt
Senior Time scale Maj
This is a clear evidence of deliberate degradation of ranks where till third pay commission four ranks were made equivalent to two pay grades and then between the third and fifth pay commissions the rank of Capt. was further degraded from Senior time scale to junior scale. Incidentally this was the same very period when all out efforts were being made improve the career prospects by upgrading the appointments. And they have again done it by degrading the rank of Lt Col. The method is very clear. First down grade and then form "AVS Committees to Up grade" so as to improve the career prospects of the officers of the Indian Armed forces. You may see the reason why the rank of 2nd Lt was abolished. Now to up grade they may want to do away with the rank of Lt also.
There is very simple solution equate the gazetted with the gazetted and non gazetted with the non gazetted i.e. equate JCOs with the Group B gazetted ranks and as far as armed forces Commissioned officers are concerned introduce the rank of 2nd Lt and give one rank one pay grade as is applicable to even the most unattractive Group A civil services department of Posts and Telegraph and the accounts department. The fair and just pay scales and pay grades should be as given below to bring the army ranks on par with the civil services
Rank Pay Band Grade pay
Sep PB-1 1900
Lance Naik PB -1 2400
Naik PB - 2 4200
Havildar PB - 2 4200
Nb Subedar PB- 2 4800 (5400 after 4 years)
Subedar PB -2 6400
Subedar Major PB - 2 6400
2nd Lt PB- 3 5400
Lt PB - 3 6600
Capt PB- 3 7600
Maj PB- 3 8700
Lt Col PB - 4 8900
Col PB- 4 10000
Brig PB -4 12000
Maj Gen 80000 Status Special Secretary to Government of India
Lt Gen 80000 Status Secretary to Government of India
Lt Gen (Army Cdr 80000 Status Principle Secretary to the Government of India
Some of the bureaucrats will say that this will result in changing of the equation that has existed since pre independence days where Maj Gen and Brig is equated with IG and DIG. My answer is the IG and DIG that the Maj Gen and DIG were equated with are rechristened as DG and ADG today.
Re: Indian Army Discussion
CLARIFICATION: The moderator may note that I am for 'affirmative action', and support such initiatives from the state governments. I am stating this to make it clear that I (or other posters) are not leading this thread into the direction of a criticism of the Army Methodologies, for which there is now a separate thread.
However, I do wish to speak about the inconsistencies in the logic of some people who advocate no reservations at one stage and more reservations at another stage of the career of a soldier.
However, I do wish to speak about the inconsistencies in the logic of some people who advocate no reservations at one stage and more reservations at another stage of the career of a soldier.
somnath wrote:the stuff mentioned aremostly for C and D services - not for retiring officers! But I agree, reservation of any kind is reprehensible....The idea should be "reskill" them, not reserve seats...
SourcePUNJAB
General
1. Reservation of 13% seats in each of the group ‘A’, ‘B’, ‘C’ and ‘D’ posts. Vacancies are carried forward for two years. State has also amended recruitment rules in respect of age and educational qualification of ex-Servicemen.
...
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
somnath wrote:RayC, Rohitvats,
It is not about "denigrating" the skills required of an ASC officer - it is about "skills matching". The skills required to manage a logistics chain (ASC), or security & policing (military police) are very different from the skills required for divisional command, or command over nuclear weapons...For example in a Bank, most of the guys operating the back office would be typically ordinary grads (or post grads), while people in product structuring or general management or investments would be typically from the IIMs. Does not mean that the back office is unimportant, in fact the banking system would close down if they didnt operate absolutely flawlessly, but that the skills required are very different.
the skills required for handling nuclear weapons are quite apart from the skills required to manage the ASC..In fact most countries, inclduing Pakistan, have set up specialised cadre to manage their nukes..India still has a generalist staff managing its nukes, but it should change sometime..the "profile" of these opeople would be very different in terms of psychology, proficiency with basic electronics etc..The first courses drawn up by the BARC for the SFC threw up quite a few surprises in terms of skills gaps..Ditto for DIPAC - analysisng satellite imagery, meshing multiple sources (like UAVs, sats, assorted ELINT) into one "view" to make sense of a "pretty picture" is a very different skill set..
Some "preview" of the kind of people manning the strategic rocket forces of Russia..
http://www.fas.org/news/russia/1995/druma076_s96001.htm
@Rohitvats,
First, I am not saying "pay" differentially for SSC and PC..See the earlier posts on this..The pay grades remain the same till (say) Captain, which is when the SSC guys move on with their golden handshakes..the pay grades improve majorly from the next level onwards compared to today..
About your example - I made the point earlier that to start with the services are already "top heavy" - jobs done by lower ranks are today being done by higher ranks simply because there are more "higher ranks" that need to be accomodated..So this has to accompany a reorg and "thinning out" of the pyramid...
Taking an example of a battalion - about 5 companies, about 20 platoons?? Would require 1 Lt col, 5 majors, 20 Captains/Lts...You can (in the equilibrium state) have about 12-15 SSC cadre officers in the Lt/Captain ranks, and 5-8 from the PC...These 5-8 would provide the necessary "raw material" for the 5 Majors and 1 Lt col in the next stage..Given that you have already created a much leaner PC, you would have "better quality" to choose them from...you have therefore got more officers @ Lt/Captain level per unit, and you have created a PC that you can subsequently pay much better, say from Lt Col onwards, when they really take up command positions/specialised tasks...
this is a very rudimentary exercise, in the real world, it will be much more exhaustive - but the drift is there..
It is about matching skills to jobs, not insisting that every job in the services requires the "same" OLQs..If commercial organsiations started thinking that way, they would only look to recruit from the IIMs for their managerial cadre and from the IITs for their technical cadre - fact is that there are only so few in the IITs and IIMs!!!
Please understand whether you are a cook or a General, you have to learn how to fight a battle and you are trained for the same.
I am not sure if all of you know that no matter what you trade is, be it clerk/ EBR/Washerman/ Cook/ or whatever, you go through the same training cycle as a combat soldier! Every man in uniform is a soldier!
It would be ridiculous to feel that an ASC person is not a soldier! He has to be a soldier since he is frequently in ambushes! What does he do, cry over his shoulders and hope for the best?
The problem in your comprehension is that you are the MBA trained ‘isolated’ minds. You cannot comprehend an all encompassing environment. Back office and front office is all you can understand. The environment and the work space ethos are totally different. As I have stated earlier, Leadership and being a Manager is totally different. A Manager can do well in a Business enterprise, but he would not be able to do the same in the Army since Leadership is a different kettle of fish!
No the skills to operate nuclear weapons is no rocket science that an ASC officer cannot handle. If it were so, then it should be left to the nuclear scientists! One has to learn and that is all. ASC has various facets – transport, supplies, Animal Transport, air support operations etc. Does it mean that they are not compatible and the ASC officers can’t function?
I can fire an INSAS, AK series, AGL, Sniper rifle, and a host of other stuff. I have flown a helicopter 20 minutes level and steady and a Dakota on Auto pilot. So, where is the big deal? Have will, all possible!
Let me assure you that the Army training teaches one to have the will to succeed and nothing is impossible. That is why we win wars against all odds. I marvel at the way we took on the Kargil War. One has to see the sheer daunting task because of the terrain!
Everyone requires OLQ. OLQ means Officer Like Quality and it has nothing to do with his trade. It means a code for behaviour as an officer and a Leader. How can it be less for non combat arms officers?
Re: Indian Army Discussion
What affirmative actions are you talking about?
Reservations in recruitment?
Check if Pakistan will have affirmative actions to capture only ''X'' amount of India and India capture ''y'' amount!
What are you talking about?
Reservations in recruitment?
Check if Pakistan will have affirmative actions to capture only ''X'' amount of India and India capture ''y'' amount!
What are you talking about?
Re: Indian Army Discussion
^^^ You didn't say anything about retired soldiers needing 'affirmative action'.
Re: Indian Army Discussion
Like?Mohan G wrote:^^^ You didn't say anything about retired soldiers needing 'affirmative action'.
Re: Indian Army Discussion
^^ Reservations ?
Re: Indian Army Discussion
Yup!
Anything to the contrary?
Anything to the contrary?
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
RayC,
I dont think there can be a discussion forward in case the standing assumption is that every single cadet has to be "staff quality", capable of handling nukes, capable of operating in DIPAC, special ops planning, besides infantry platoon commands and everything else - basically someone who is basicaly a potential "master of all"...
most countries dont look at their services in that fashion anymore..
I dont think there can be a discussion forward in case the standing assumption is that every single cadet has to be "staff quality", capable of handling nukes, capable of operating in DIPAC, special ops planning, besides infantry platoon commands and everything else - basically someone who is basicaly a potential "master of all"...
most countries dont look at their services in that fashion anymore..
Re: Indian Army Discussion
ASPuar,
I think the Lt Col issue is about to be resolved. There is some merit in upgrading the Brigadier rank, I do not know if anything else will change. Anyway with AVSC-II we will soon have a lot more General officers.
About Lt Gen being equated with Principal Secretary to GoI, what can I say, is there any harm in dreaming ?
Principal Secretary is not a 'regular' rank or appointment. IIRC there is only one Principal Secretary in GoI, Shri T K A Nair, in the PMO in the MoS rank.
But then some believe that the Service Chiefs are of 'cabinet rank' (whatever that means), so probably they imply that the Chiefs have the rank of a Cabinet Minister to GoI. So no harm in imagining a MoS rank for Lt Gen.
I think the Lt Col issue is about to be resolved. There is some merit in upgrading the Brigadier rank, I do not know if anything else will change. Anyway with AVSC-II we will soon have a lot more General officers.
About Lt Gen being equated with Principal Secretary to GoI, what can I say, is there any harm in dreaming ?
Principal Secretary is not a 'regular' rank or appointment. IIRC there is only one Principal Secretary in GoI, Shri T K A Nair, in the PMO in the MoS rank.
But then some believe that the Service Chiefs are of 'cabinet rank' (whatever that means), so probably they imply that the Chiefs have the rank of a Cabinet Minister to GoI. So no harm in imagining a MoS rank for Lt Gen.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Courseware of the Defense Threat Reduction School - these guys are engaged in reducing "nuke threats", not "managing" the nukes themselves - those courses would be classified of course.
http://www.dtra.mil/documents/oe/FY09DNWSCatalog.pdf
Even this is quite a bit, from broad brush reading - if we want every cadet to be good enough to be proficient in this along with al the other things, well...
BTW, Bharat Karnad in his new book mentions of the fairly large skill gaps noticed when BARC conducted its first courses for the SFC boys...
http://www.dtra.mil/documents/oe/FY09DNWSCatalog.pdf
Even this is quite a bit, from broad brush reading - if we want every cadet to be good enough to be proficient in this along with al the other things, well...
BTW, Bharat Karnad in his new book mentions of the fairly large skill gaps noticed when BARC conducted its first courses for the SFC boys...
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
this is not an argument. A lot of managers become great leaders, and knowing a lot of servicemen I dont think as a rule all of them are "great leaders"...At a certain level, it would be sometimes much tougher "leading" a bunch of disparate, super ambitious professionals than leading a platoon of soldiers from the same "caste group" all bound by iron discipline codes...But this is completely OT here..The problem in your comprehension is that you are the MBA trained ‘isolated’ minds. You cannot comprehend an all encompassing environment. Back office and front office is all you can understand. The environment and the work space ethos are totally different. As I have stated earlier, Leadership and being a Manager is totally different. A Manager can do well in a Business enterprise, but he would not be able to do the same in the Army since Leadership is a different kettle of fish!
Re: Indian Army Discussion
MohanG, I think youre right, Lt. Col. issue is largely about to be resolved.
I think, what people mean by service chiefs being of 'cabinet' rank, is that like the 'Cabinet' Seceretary and Chairman, Railway Board, they are in the 'Cabinet' pay band, viz. Rs. 90000 p.m. I dont think anyone imagines that Generals are Cabinet Ministers
Im not sure what a Principal Secy is. What is it that Mr. Nair does, which singles him out for this unusual rank?
I think, what people mean by service chiefs being of 'cabinet' rank, is that like the 'Cabinet' Seceretary and Chairman, Railway Board, they are in the 'Cabinet' pay band, viz. Rs. 90000 p.m. I dont think anyone imagines that Generals are Cabinet Ministers
Im not sure what a Principal Secy is. What is it that Mr. Nair does, which singles him out for this unusual rank?
Re: Indian Army Discussion
^^ Chairman Railway Board's payscale is the same as that of Secretary to GoI
List of Secretaries to GoI
As you will note Shri Nair is on contract, post retirement. Principal Secretary is just a designation given to show he is somehow senior to other Secretaries. In fact, in terms of WoP, being of the status of MoS, he is senior to Cabinet Secretary also.
Also, you would observe that the posts outside the Secretariate, even though they may be 'equivalent' to Secretary, are not listed in the link above.
List of Secretaries to GoI
As you will note Shri Nair is on contract, post retirement. Principal Secretary is just a designation given to show he is somehow senior to other Secretaries. In fact, in terms of WoP, being of the status of MoS, he is senior to Cabinet Secretary also.
Also, you would observe that the posts outside the Secretariate, even though they may be 'equivalent' to Secretary, are not listed in the link above.
Re: Indian Army Discussion
Indeed? Perhaps I am misinformed regarding the Chairman Railway Board.
At any rate, the Chiefs of Staff are in the same scale as the cabinet secretary, and have been, since General Manekshaw. Previously, they were in a higher scale of pay, as they were KCIOs (the last such chief being Gen. PP Kumaramangalam). This scale being, of course, Rs. 90000pm (fixed).
Please see pp 37 of the resolution for armed forces personnel for the same.
http://mod.nic.in/6thCPC/PAYSERVICES-notification.pdf
At any rate, the Chiefs of Staff are in the same scale as the cabinet secretary, and have been, since General Manekshaw. Previously, they were in a higher scale of pay, as they were KCIOs (the last such chief being Gen. PP Kumaramangalam). This scale being, of course, Rs. 90000pm (fixed).
Please see pp 37 of the resolution for armed forces personnel for the same.
http://mod.nic.in/6thCPC/PAYSERVICES-notification.pdf
Re: Indian Army Discussion
^^ Yes, the Service Chiefs and the Cabinet Secretary are in the same payscale.
About Chairman, Railway Board see p 519 of the 6th CPC report:
About Chairman, Railway Board see p 519 of the 6th CPC report:
Status of Chairman Railway Board
7.36.8 Presently, the pay scale of Chairman as well as other
Members of Railway Board is Rs.26000 (fixed). Traditionally, the
status of Chairman has been that of Principal Secretary to the
Government of India. Railway Ministry has proposed that the pay
scale of Chairman, Railway Board should be brought on par with
that of the Cabinet Secretary viz. Rs.30000 (fixed).
Recommendation
7.36.9 It is observed that a similar demand was made before the
Fifth Central Pay Commission who however recommended that the
Chairman should be considered as first amongst equals. The Fifth
CPC had, accordingly, recommended that pay scale of all Members
of the Railway Board including the Chairman should continue to be
Rs.26000 (fixed). This recommendation of the Fifth Central pay
Commission is justified. The Commission, accordingly,
recommends no change in the status or pay scale attached to the
post of Chairman, Railway Board.
Re: Indian Army Discussion
Interesting. It would seem that Mr. Nair is acting not as a civil servant, but rather as a political advisor, post retirement.Mohan G wrote:^^ Chairman Railway Board's payscale is the same as that of Secretary to GoI
List of Secretaries to GoI
As you will note Shri Nair is on contract, post retirement. Principal Secretary is just a designation given to show he is somehow senior to other Secretaries. In fact, in terms of WoP, being of the status of MoS, he is senior to Cabinet Secretary also.
Also, you would observe that the posts outside the Secretariate, even though they may be 'equivalent' to Secretary, are not listed in the link above.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Yes ofcourse, send the super ambitious professionals into battle with guns and it will really be tough to lead them because you wont know where they are hidingsomnath wrote:
At a certain level, it would be sometimes much tougher "leading" a bunch of disparate, super ambitious professionals than leading a platoon of soldiers from the same "caste group" all bound by iron discipline codes...But this is completely OT here..
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
SomnathTaking an example of a battalion - about 5 companies, about 20 platoons?? Would require 1 Lt col, 5 majors, 20 Captains/Lts...You can (in the equilibrium state) have about 12-15 SSC cadre officers in the Lt/Captain ranks, and 5-8 from the PC...These 5-8 would provide the necessary "raw material" for the 5 Majors and 1 Lt col in the next stage..Given that you have already created a much leaner PC, you would have "better quality" to choose them from...you have therefore got more officers @ Lt/Captain level per unit, and you have created a PC that you can subsequently pay much better, say from Lt Col onwards, when they really take up command positions/specialised tasks...
Point 1: Your argument even in its basic form is flawed and again shows how it cannot be implemented. I gave you specific breakdown of the officer strength of an Infantry battalions ie 1/1/5/8/6 - Col/Lt.Col/Majors/Captain/Lt. Where does your number argument fill? How can you have 12-15 SSC + 5 PC officers when the total number of officers in Capt/Lt. Level is 14? If we add up the numbers as posted by you, we'll have 5 PC (both Capt and Lt;lesser of 5/8) + 12 SSC (Capt/Lt;lesser of 12/15) =17 Officers. So you've actually increased the officer level in the IA. And for someone who complains that senior officers are doing a junior officers level, what are these extra officers supposed to do? Do what a senior JCO does? How much absurd can you get
Point 2 Has it occured to you that people actually opt for SSC because it is backdoor into the PC Cadre? Even in worst of times (booming economic scenario), 100 out of a batch of 180 SSC officers which is to complete its term shortly, opted for PC? You actually think you'll be able to attract officers who'll be willing to serve only 5 years and no more?
Point 3: The above quote is another example of your complete lack of understanding of way IA functions. Can you actually compare a commercial organization where monetary gain the bottom line to measure everything?It is about matching skills to jobs, not insisting that every job in the services requires the "same" OLQs..If commercial organsiations started thinking that way, they would only look to recruit from the IIMs for their managerial cadre and from the IITs for their technical cadre - fact is that there are only so few in the IITs and IIMs!!!
Let me elaborate how an officer ends up doing what he does.
1. Join IMA/OTA. Has option to opt for one of the arms. Based on the merit can either get what he wants (guys from the top log) or gets assigned to another arm as per the discretion of the IA. Eg: GC A and GC B opt for Armoured Corps, but if GC A has higher merit, he gets it while GC B can get from one of the other 2 options he ticked (apart from the Armored Corps) or as per the discretion of the IA.
2. Lt. goes for his Young Officers Course (YO) which introduces him to arm and prepares him for his set of reponsibilities. The Armored guy learns how to operate his tank and command his troop, gunner learns about his guns (no pun intended) and the infantry guy about platoon level weapons and basic infantry tactics.
3. Similarly, at each level one learns about next higher level.
4. The crux happens at the Maj. to Lt.Col level. The Staff College is considered must (yes, there are exceptions) for rising higher and competition is tough with limited number of seats for each arm.
5. The same continues at each level with the officer corps exposed to higher set of learning at each level which prepares them for higher positions and responsiblities.
So, you see, the selection is present at each level with a filter (combination of academic and practical experience) ensuring that the right kind of guy, with your much loved 'brass quality' material reacing the top. Oh! and btw, the guys from Infantry/Artillery/Armored are the ones who go on to command the brigades and divisions and your 'grunt job' guy from ASC and Ordinance manages the supply chain and inventory
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
And why not may I ask?somnath wrote:RayC,
I dont think there can be a discussion forward in case the standing assumption is that every single cadet has to be "staff quality", capable of handling nukes, capable of operating in DIPAC, special ops planning, besides infantry platoon commands and everything else - basically someone who is basicaly a potential "master of all"...
most countries dont look at their services in that fashion anymore..
I would not know what most countries do ( you seem to be the expert of what most countries are doing), but I sure know what India should have!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
To be honest, i have been following this thread only in fits and starts because to me, it was a drivel of a few motivated minds. Also, because my mind wavers before it can fully comprehend the substance here.somnath wrote:RayC,
I dont think there can be a discussion forward in case the standing assumption is that every single cadet has to be "staff quality", capable of handling nukes, capable of operating in DIPAC, special ops planning, besides infantry platoon commands and everything else - basically someone who is basicaly a potential "master of all"...
most countries dont look at their services in that fashion anymore..
However, to add fuel to ammo (not sure on whose side it will be), here is a report that shows that the current lot of officers are finding the academics difficult. What will happen when suggestions of inducting below par officers gets accepted.
Most army officers flunk annual exams
The sting is in the tail of the article:
Lieutenant General H.S. Bagga, a former director general of Army’s manpower, planning and personnel services branch, said extensive deployment in counter-insurgency operations left officers with little time for academics. “Till late 1980s, when Kashmir was peaceful, almost 80 to 90 per cent officers cleared these exams,” said Bagga.
Re: Indian Army Discussion
Puar,
Your note on the officer who had to join the AOC and the way his junior became his senior, is not only disturbing, it is a sad commentary of our system!
Your note on the officer who had to join the AOC and the way his junior became his senior, is not only disturbing, it is a sad commentary of our system!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Well, while the pass percentage might have dropped, the report does not give the true picture. As quoted above, the Part B and Part D are not monolithic exams ala your term end examinations in universities. One gets multiple attempts and something like your CA exams, there is a group of papers you can give at one go at a time. A regular whine you'd hear from young officers is," itna to humne kabhi jindagi main nahin pada"These exams can be cleared in phases over a period of time. Sometimes officers tend to take it a little easy.
.The subject matter at Part D level is quite exhaustive and is a real grind to clear all the papers at one go. Saw my old man appear for Part D and how much effort he put in to clear them.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Somnath If I may be bold to ask what is your point of view about the Indian military? I dont get a good feeling about your fire side chats with new members.Criticism is acceptable but not a running down of institutions. Please help me.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
I do not challenge, friend. I discuss.Mohan G wrote:^^^ You didn't miss anything. He has made that point earlier as well. And you didn't challenge him on his view at that time.
BR is not a battleground, but hopefully a meeting place of ladies and gentlemen keen to educated themselves or interact and exchange information.
Thank you.