Questioning the Army's Methodologies

[RayC]

These exams are not easy. It is exhaustive and with many subjects. It requires time and effort to swot all the details of each subject and there are hosts of subject.

Because CI, deployment on posts requires 24 x 7 vigilance, one cannot study with the requisite concentration that is essential to remember facts and figures and such issues.

The caption of the article is the usual media sensationalism and superficial in reporting.

[RayC]

^^^

Do you mean to say a 25 year old civilian is more meritorious than a 40 year old soldier? It seems that the reservations are for all posts, not only for those that need physical tests.

And I believe that an army soldier aged 40 years can pass the minimum requirements for the physical test for a constable (for example). There is no competition as to who can run 100 meters faster, it is merely a minimum physical requirement test.

Am I wrong in my belief?

BTW, who is this Raju ? Why should he (she ??) mind your personal choices ?

The 40 year old retiring soldier is expected to have the physical fitness of a new recruit!

Even in the Army, the physical standards are different for the young and the not so young.

[somnath]

Somnath If I may be bold to ask what is your point of view about the Indian military? I dont get a good feeling about your fire side chats with new members.Criticism is acceptable but not a running down of institutions. Please help me.

What are fire side chats (its not a rhetorical question)? Now, where exactly have I "run down" the services? If you can point out a specific instance, I would be happy to retract. In fact my view is that for an emerging power like India, we need to have a far better "structured" military posture, combined with a better planned MIC. For a better structured military, you need the most important raw material, ie, people, and the people policy right. Also, you need to have the "right military posture"...This disscussion has been all about finding out ways of doing that. If the opinion is that everything is hunky dory and whatever isnt is a problem with politicians/IAS babus, then of course we need not have a discussion.

Rohitvats

I mentioned before, the SSC solution is not in isolation - it has to accompany a reorg of the org structure itself. The template I gave will have more Lt/Capt, but lesser Lt Cols, Cols, Brigadier, and "gen staff" officers when strteched its logical conclusion. The assumption is simple - you need more officers at the Lt/Capt level, one becasue of the increasing technical nature of the equipment, and second becasue the JCO/NCO cadre has been consistently found wanting when asked to step up for more technical or command level functions..(There are lots of references for this - I am sure you know most of them, including a failed attempt to graduate more NCOs to commuissioned officers). And at Lt/Cap level, you do not need everyone to be at what I put simplistically as "staff quality" level - hence a greater % of SSC cadre..But as you go up the ranks, the role complexity increases, you would want more jobs to be manned by the PC cadre, who would be a smaller, more "elite" selection process.

The reason why SSC officers are opting for PC is because the current structuring of the cadre is different - if there is a substantial "golden handshake" after the tenure, a lot more officers would take that rather than continue..There are lots of ways to structure such jobs - an HR professional would be competent to go into a little more details..

It is always useful to take approrpiate "lessons" from other areas - commercial organisations over the years have taken many lessons from the military - especially in areas of ERP/MRP etc..A lot of operations research stuff have also been drawn from the military...theres nothing "demeaning" for the military to take some pointers from commercial orgs - especially it is targeting (as officers) the same set of guys commercial orgs are targeting...If your case is that the current system is "perfect" - then of course there is no scope for discussion...And the only anomaly is pay parity with IAS, I guess lets wait for the time when Generals are made equivalent to Cabinet Ministers and then hopefully a lot more people will join the services!!

My fundamental point is that you cannot have a large number of individuals who would be potentially good in areas as diverse as nuclear weapon handling, intel, imagery analysis, higher commands et al...On top, most of the officers recruited dont even NEED to be of that type - after all, a majority of them would retire as Lt Cols, doing no more than commanding a pltoon, company and battalion...So there is massive scope for differentiaion on the basis of skills matching..

[RayC]

What are fire side chats

The fireside chats were a series of thirty evening radio speeches given by United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt between 1933 and 1944.

Sometimes beginning his talks with "Good evening, friends", Roosevelt urged listeners to have faith in the banks and to support his New Deal measures. The "fireside chats" were considered enormously successful and attracted more listeners than the most popular radio shows during the "Golden Age of Radio." Roosevelt continued his broadcasts into the 1940s, as Americans turned their attention to World War II.

[Mohan G]

^^^

Point 1: Many competitions do not have a physical test requirement. So pure 'merit' should be sufficient.

Point 2: Where physical tests are mandated (see ITBP constable entry physical test requirement on page 3), am I to suppose a 40 year old army soldier (who, you often remind us, stands guard with a gun on Siachin, and does regular training during peacetime) who is not physically unfit, cannot meet these requirements ?

Point 3: If you say the ex-servicemen will fail the physical test, then let me add that the advertisement states that no Physical Efficiency Test will be held for Ex-Serviceman. Now, if so, why have reservation for ex-servicemen ?

[RayC]

^^^

Point 1: Many competitions do not have a physical test requirement. So pure 'merit' should be sufficient.

Point 2: Where physical tests are mandated (see ITBP constable entry physical test requirement on page 3), am I to suppose a 40 year old army soldier (who, you often remind us, stands guard with a gun on Siachin, and does regular training during peacetime) who is not physically unfit, cannot meet these requirements ?

Point 3: If you say the ex-servicemen will fail the physical test, then let me add that the advertisement states that no Physical Efficiency Test will be held for Ex-Serviceman. Now, if so, why have reservation for ex-servicemen ?

You are selective in your references and on the other hand, you generalise when it suits your convenience.

ITBP is not the sole police force. And though they maybe called Police, they have stood guard during wars beyond what their title suggests.

I hope you are aware that physical standards are not arbitrarily assigned. They have been done by specialists in the medical profession based on studies.

Am I to understand that you believe that a 40 year old is as fit as a strapping youth of 20?

Should you believe so, I would then believe that indeed the Moon is made of cheese!

[Mohan G]

^^^

Point 1: You have not addressed it. Why have reservations where there is no physical test ?

Point 2: I am sad that you seem to give an impression the 40 year old soldier will not be able to meet the physical test for recruitment as ITBP constable. IMHO the tests are not that tough. I am sure, given two months of preparation time, even I will be able to meet those standards, and I am not younger than 40 years, and my job requirements are sedentary (but I try to keep fit).

Point 3: You have not addressed the point: Why have reservations where the ex-servicemen are exempt from physical tests ?

Now, another point:

Point 4: The reason I gave a link to ITBP constable recruitment was because they were likely to have higher physical test requirements (not lower) than regular police force. The point was to show that their physical requirements were not daunting even for a 40 year old. If you wish to take a look at the physical test requirement for regular police, how about eastern railways- railway protection force (see page 2) or delhi police (see page 7 and 8 ) recruitment. Also, note that Delhi police advertisement makes it clear that for ex-servicemen there are relaxed physical endurance tests. So, why have reservations when the ex-servicemen have a lower physical endurance requirement ?

[RayC]

^^^

Point 1: You have not addressed it. Why have reservations where there is no physical test ?

What is the connection?

Point 2: I am sad that you seem to give an impression the 40 year old soldier will not be able to meet the physical test for recruitment as ITBP constable. IMHO the tests are not that tough. I am sure, given two months of preparation time, even I will be able to meet those standards, and I am not younger than 40 years, and my job requirements are sedentary (but I try to keep fit).

Please take a year and then come for the test. Do let us know where you wish to test yourself and I will try to organise on for you and then have it on YouTube.

Point 3: You have not addressed the point: Why have reservations where the ex-servicemen are exempt from physical tests ?

What is the difference between your Point 1 and this?
Are you the prototype of the Argumentative Indian?

Now, another point:

Point 4: The reason I gave a link to ITBP constable recruitment was because they were likely to have higher physical test requirements (not lower) than regular police force. The point was to show that their physical requirements were not daunting even for a 40 year old. If you wish to take a look at the physical test requirement for regular police, how about eastern railways- railway protection force (see page 2) or delhi police (see page 7 and 8 ) recruitment. Also, note that Delhi police advertisement makes it clear that for ex-servicemen there are relaxed physical endurance tests. So, why have reservations when the ex-servicemen have a lower physical endurance requirement ?

It is simple. A 40 year old would not normally have the same physical capacity as 20 year old!

[Mohan G]

^^ Ok. I see you want to recruit the 'best' talent (based on some tests) with no reservations for the military, but at the same time want the ex-servicemen to be given reservations for their entry into civilian workforce.

The logic that ex-servicemen need reservations because they are older is nonsense. As I posted earlier, for the civilian services:
(i) the competition does not have physical requirement tests for anyone OR
(ii) the competition has physical requirement tests, but they are relaxed for ex-servicemen OR
(iii) the competition has physical requirement tests, but the ex-servicemen are exempt.

Message: When it benefits us, reservation is good.

Plain logic, some argumentation, but no sirdard.

[Mohan G]

^ And, needless to add, I am unhappy to get an impression that a 40 year old soldier will not be able to run a mile in under 6 minutes.

Since you want to see videos, enjoy the video of a 46 year old man running a 4:16

(the World Record is held by (the then 25 year old) Hicham El Guerrouj at 3:43).

For professionals, how much loss of efficiency can one see in different age-groups ?

These are people who train for one job alone - running - and their efficiency does go down with age, but not drastically.

So, I see no reason a well trained 40 year old will not be able to do a mile under 6 minutes.

If you ask me, I would say most policemen of that age will not able to do so. I thought Army was different - I was told they trained regularly. Even a couple of days taken away in 'bailing out' civilians disrupted their training schedule enormously.

But what do I know, I don't train anyone else: I just try to keep myself fit.

JMT

[somnath]

Mohan G,

I dont think the whole discussion of post retirement jobs for ORs is really a value adding one. We have no problems of "attracting" people for ORs, and the IA is not facing an "OR quality" problem either...

the big issue is about the officer corps.

[RayC]

Mohan G

Apparently, it appears that you have some chip on your shoulder about the military.

Had some tangle with the military on the way?

The fact that you don’t understand why seats are reserved for the military is so evident and more so, it indicates you don’t understand the rationale.

Reservation in the police etc for ex servicemen is not for any other reason, except that the servicemen retire early unlike civilians who retire at 60 or even later, having wangled extensions. They still have ‘useful life’ for service in other fields. Apparently, the govt feels it essential to use their residual service life. Become the PM and change it!

Further, since you have not understood the issue, ex servicemen being employed in the police and quasi military forces, SAVES the Treasury (GOI) money in not having to spend money on training. In case you think training comes cheap, think again!

So, that much for you contention on reservation for the ex servicemen and it is fallacious for you to think “ex-servicemen need reservations because they are older”!

World Master Athletics was started for veteran athletes. It is a competition for which people specifically train for.

It is obtuse of anyone to imagine that servicemen solely train for being athletes.

If all Indians could be Milkha Singhs, Shinys, Ushas, Jeevs or Roger Bannister and Emil Zatopeks, then I would agree that anyone should run 1 mile in under 4 minutes! How come you were not on the Olymic Squad for 100m dash?

You claim you keep yourself fit. Good for you. Are you a Milkha Singh or Dara Singh? If not, why not; more so, since you boast that you are fit!? Surely, you are as good as anyone!

As I said earlier, you are selective and you delight yourself in being irrational, out of the world and obtuse in thought and rather poor on your background knowledge!

[Mohan G]

Somnath,

Agreed. But then there are reservations for the officer corps also - in class A services of Punjab for example.

And RayC advocates a 'guarantee commensurate job given after the contractual service' for SSC officers, which is another name for 100% reservation for these officers.

If I understand correctly, your SSC scheme visualizes that after completing the mandatory period of service, SSC officer should have an option of earning extra qualification. But he should compete in the civilian job market on his own 'merit'. There is no scope for reservations in that scheme.

I am trying to, as I said earlier, highlight the logical and moral inconsistency of being anti-reservation at one time and being pro-reservation at another time.

Also, as I said earlier, I support efforts to utilize the experience and commitment of the people in AF - both officers and ORs - in the civilian sector. I said that induction of ex-soldiers in police is a good step and that - from my experience - the ex-SSC officers did all right in IAS. But if 'merit' were measured by open competition tests alone, it wouldn't have been possible.

[ASPuar]

I am not aware that any state gives guaranteed commensurate status post release to ex servicemen. Especially not in commissioned cadres.

Your reference to Punjab is interesting. If a state has Class-I subordinate services, then an SDM is in the same scale as a Lieutenant of the army (Group A entry). In many cases, SDM's in states are in Group B, meaning that they are equivalent to Subedars Major, as referenced by the sixth pay commission.

By the time an SSC officer has been released he may be a captain, or a major. What then? Most states do not have those scales in their state service. (Even an Additional District Magistrate is in the same scale as an SDM usually- am I correct?)

[RayC]

Somnath,

Agreed. But then there are reservations for the officer corps also - in class A services of Punjab for example.

And RayC advocates a 'guarantee commensurate job given after the contractual service' for SSC officers, which is another name for 100% reservation for these officers.

If I understand correctly, your SSC scheme visualizes that after completing the mandatory period of service, SSC officer should have an option of earning extra qualification. But he should compete in the civilian job market on his own 'merit'. There is no scope for reservations in that scheme.

I am trying to, as I said earlier, highlight the logical and moral inconsistency of being anti-reservation at one time and being pro-reservation at another time.

Also, as I said earlier, I support efforts to utilize the experience and commitment of the people in AF - both officers and ORs - in the civilian sector. I said that induction of ex-soldiers in police is a good step and that - from my experience - the ex-SSC officers did all right in IAS. But if 'merit' were measured by open competition tests alone, it wouldn't have been possible.

Indeed you are an odd fish!

Here we are discussing of the shortages in lower ranks and you suggest that SSC officers should not be guaranteed alternate jobs after finishing their 5 years contractual service.

I take it that you are employed. If your profession only allowed you 5 years and then asked you to move on, on your own steam, I wonder if you have opted for that profession unless you were desperate.

Further, there is no similar field as the military unless it is a security enforcing organisation. That is a very limited field! Or you suggesting that all SSC officers who finish their contractual service remain unemployed for life? If so, who will volunteer?

If in the 5 years, the Army has to allow them 2 years to gain ‘expertise for after life’, it means 3 years of service to the Army. Are you suggesting that the Army becomes a ‘Garibi Hatao’ scheme. How ridiculous can you get?

There is NO ‘logical and moral inconsistency of being anti-reservation at one time and being pro-reservation at another time’. It is just that you don’t have a clue and that you have a chip on your shoulder!

The ex SSC officers who joined IAS and IPS did well and held posts of responsibility including those who opted for the IAS after Independence!

[somnath]

Mohan G,

Agreed - "reservation" is pretty much the worst thing to happen for any "service", civil or military..Thanks God we have saved the military (yet) from this ordeal!

But really, the discussion on whether jobs are currently "reserved" in the police/state admin for ex servicemen is a bit silly in the context of the current discussion. Talk of reservation is pretty much how the "traditional" bargaining happens in the govt sector...Doesnt fit in with a grand scheme of reforms..

In my view, a well structured SSC would have the following points - a generous golden handshake, a subsidised educational loan for a tertiary education after the service and a paid study leave of 2 months after the service period..An HR professional can make a more comprehensive structre I am sure..

[somnath]

Here we are discussing of the shortages in lower ranks and you suggest that SSC officers should not be guaranteed alternate jobs after finishing their 5 years contractual service.

I take it that you are employed. If your profession only allowed you 5 years and then asked you to move on, on your own steam, I wonder if you have opted for that profession unless you were desperate.

RayC, I wouldnt want to reply on Mohan G's behalf, but on the limited point on whether such "temp" jobs are worthwhile - absolutely 100% they are..In fact world over, and in India, kids are doing that all the time..After college, a lot of people join BPOs, software companies, Banks, Insurance companies for 2-4 years...Mostly at the "grunt" level (software engg, call centre execs, sales execs etc)..Get the experience and use that as additional "ammo" when they are looking to do a tertiary education (in India and abroad)..A well structured SSc scheme would provide him the "experience", as well as a significant sum of money - a lot of people would be interested!

[Mohan G]

Further, since you have not understood the issue, ex servicemen being employed in the police and quasi military forces, SAVES the Treasury (GOI) money in not having to spend money on training. In case you think training comes cheap, think again!

IMHO, I know a little about public finances, in all likelihood more than most posters here.

You are introducing a new logic here!

If your logic were valid then why should the central paramilitary forces/central police organizations be hesitant in implementing the 'lateral move' initiative.

They argue why should we be saddled with middle age ex-servicemen, we also need fresh blood. They argue their task is no less demanding than that of the military.

You don't seem to realize many people (I would say a little unfairly) view these 'lateral moves' or reservations as a welfare measure.

Apparently, it appears that you have some chip on your shoulder about the military.

Had some tangle with the military on the way?

Do you say that to everyone who does not immediately agree to your views as the param satya ?

In our country, people need to disagree with and debate with the holy cows (the military, the nuclear establishment etc.) more and not less. Let the holy cows explain themselves. Let them also be respectful to the tax payer and the aam janata. Even to the outspoken elements of the aam janata. But there is little culture of debate and agreeing to disagree. That is why you see a sitting Service Chief threatening to 'chop the heads of civilians off' when he gets irritated.

Control, Sir, Control.

By the time an SSC officer has been released he may be a captain, or a major. What then? Most states do not have those scales in their state service. (Even an Additional District Magistrate is in the same scale as an SDM usually- am I correct?)

In any such move from one service to another, there is pay protection. And there are many promoted IAS/IPS/IFS officers who earn more than their bosses.

SDM is usually on a lower scale (JTS), some SDMs (in the state services) may be on STS also. ADMs are in STS and up (sometimes even JAG).

I take it that you are employed. If your profession only allowed you 5 years and then asked you to move on, on your own steam, I wonder if you have opted for that profession unless you were desperate.

Further, there is no similar field as the military unless it is a security enforcing organisation. That is a very limited field! Or you suggesting that all SSC officers who finish their contractual service remain unemployed for life? If so, who will volunteer?

You seem to have very low confidence in the ability of SSC people to get a job later. That is the government job mindset. A job is for life. In private sector people move across jobs very frequently, and sometimes even have spells of unemployment in between.

[RayC]

Somnath,

When you are stalking out in to the world, one has no qualms of facing the ‘world’. But when you are older, then the responsibilities of life dawns on you! Therefore, what you state is chalk and cheese!

Indian mentality is still ‘conservative’!

Tell me how it is’ silly’ to save money of the Exchequer by employing people already trained?

The policeman who took action against the terrorist is an ex Army man, while the others who cowered weren’t. That is what I learnt from the posts here on BR. A bad thing, is it? More should have died, right?

[somnath]

It might be a good idea to do a broad level mathematical exercise of the cost benefit of an expanded SSC..

In equilibrium state, (say) 65% of the officer corps is from the SSC. Plus, a much "narrower" pyramid - so much less nos of Lt cols, Cols, Brigadiers and Gen staff officers.

How much do we save in salaries?
How much do we save in pensions?
How much do we save in benefits?
How much do we save in "infrastructure" - permanent housing, medical, canteens etc?
How much do we save in training?
How much do we spend in golden handshake and associated benefits?

As a derivation, it would spew out what kind of money becomes availabel for the PC's in terms of an enhanced package?

If someone had some idea of the numbers required as above - it would be an interesting exercise..

[Mohan G]

The policeman who took action against the terrorist is an ex Army man, while the others who cowered weren’t. That is what I learnt from the posts here on BR. A bad thing, is it? More should have died, right?

I did not know Kamte, Omble, the ACP in Taj, and others had a military service background!

[somnath]

Somnath,

When you are stalking out in to the world, one has no qualms of facing the ‘world’. But when you are older, then the responsibilities of life dawns on you! Therefore, what you state is chalk and cheese!

Indian mentality is still ‘conservative’!

Sir, we are talking of 25-26 year olds! These days most people go in for their tertiary education in that age..I am not saying anything thats "chalk and cheese" - its happening as of today - the Indian military has to be smart" enough to draw in some part of this pool..

[RayC]

I am also not too conversant of public finances, except that throughout my service we were admonished to cut cost so as to cut wastages!
Why should there be opposition to lateral moves? Are you naïve? Never heard of turf wars? What is your age? I ask this, since if you are a schoolboy, I would understand, but if you are an adult, I am astounded! And that too as a BR member, where it is so evidently expressed!
Young blood is OK, but then old blood is also required so that the organisation is ‘’fighting fit’’. Who has informed you that being a police force in CI area is a cakewalk? Today’s TV report indicates how the JK Police are pissed off in guarding municipal garbage collectors! I am aware the when the Calcutta garbage chaps went on strike, the Army moved in and there was no complaints!
I don’t ask you to agree with my views. But generalisation is a poor way to counter my views. I am not here for a lark or to show I am Mohammed Ali – the greatest. I am here to see different views so that when I write for the Army, I present a balanced view.
I assure you I also pay taxes and what is worse if that while in service I never understood tax savings. Didn’t have the time as most of us. We are the best ones to oil the machinery of the govt!

[RayC]

Somath,

Indian army is of fools.

Become the defence minister and help us!

[Mohan G]

RayC,

Turf wars is just one aspect, you focus on it to the exclusion of all others.

There are counterbalancing factors: if you increase the age of retirement of civilian employees by 5 years you will indeed save money on pensions, but you will have a older workforce. If saving money were the prime concern of the government, they would have increased the age of retirement long time ago.

And, do you really mean to say the job of a BSF/ITBP employee is much easier as compared to IA employee ? If you do, what can I say ? I won't cast aspersions on your thinking capacity, or suggest you are not an adult.

Then why should BSF/ITBP and others encourage IA retirees to enter their services?

[RayC]

RayC,

Turf wars is just one aspect, you focus on it to the exclusion of all others.

There are counterbalancing factors: if you increase the age of retirement of civilian employees by 5 years you will indeed save money on pensions, but you will have a older workforce. If saving money were the prime concern of the government, they would have increased the age of retirement long time ago.

And, do you really mean to say the job of a BSF/ITBP employee is much easier as compared to IA employee ? If you do, what can I say ? I won't cast aspersions on your thinking capacity, or suggest you are not an adult.

Then why should BSF/ITBP and others encourage IA retirees to enter their services?

You have not mentioned what you do. Therefore, I take it that you don't understand what turf wars are all about.

If all the Intelligence agencies worked in unison, we would not have Kargil or Mumbai. Let that be the index of what turf wars can do. Sad, but unavoidable in the current set up.

Again, you speak like someone who doesn't understand things and instead argue for no reason. Yes, you can raise the age of retirement to 'work till you drop'! Maybe till 100 years of age! Why not? But then there is finite vacancies in any organisation. Does it mean that the remainder of the population remain unemployed? How ridiculous can you get? Further, while age may give expertise, it sure does decrease efficiency, except for people like you who are 'fit' and are like Phantom, the Ghost who walks! Do you really understand how a govt or society works?

Since you are totally unaware of the circumstance, yes, working in the other paramilitary is easier than the IA. Serve and ye shall realise.

You need not cast aspersions on my thinking ability since you enjoy the blanket of the security that my folks and I provided you. If I were not capable, you would be a Pakistani by now! Thank you for your kind thoughts!

Since you are so ill conversant of issues, the govt indeed saves when employing ex servicemen in other organisation. It deducts the pension from the pay that an ex serviceman would have earned if he were a new recruit.

You remind me of a person who wishes to be a PhD, without checking or learning the ABCs

[RayC]

You seem to have very low confidence in the ability of SSC people to get a job later. That is the government job mindset. A job is for life. In private sector people move across jobs very frequently, and sometimes even have spells of unemployment in between.

No, I don't think that they are people who have no ability.

That is why I had said every 2/Lt carries a Field Marshal's baton in his knapsack.

It again proves that you are selective in your understanding and with a chip on your shoulder. I would not be surprised if you are an armed forces reject in selection!

Private sector and the 'safety' that a govt job gives are two different things.

There are many a brilliant persons who opt for govt sector instead of the private sector because of the safety that it provides.

So, chalk and cheese!

[Mohan G]

^^^

I am sure the UPSC+SSB assigned me a better rank than it assigned you. But then anyone who dares to question you must be a reject ??

As I repeatedly point out, it is difficult to determine true 'merit' by an exam. So you may be more meritorious than I am.

That does not mean I cannot point out the faults in your reasoning, and there are many. You cannot hide them by saying 'hold a gun and stand in siachin'. That doesn't work.

[skumar]

Somath,

Indian army is of fools.

Become the defence minister and help us!

Definitely not. But it has too many people who are too busy trying to figure out how to make the next buck rather than people who would be interested in the topic we are discussing.

[somnath]

Somath,

Indian army is of fools.

Become the defence minister and help us!

I wish! But I am not fit enough to be a politician! Only sons of politicians or the uneducated make the cut these days!

[Mohan G]

If criticizing some practices of the military is a sufficient qualification then please consider me too for the post of the defence minister

BTW, the present defence minister seems to be neither from a political family nor uneducated.

Though Pallam Raju is from a political family, he is definitely not uneducated:

Pallam Raju, 46, is an electronics and communications engineering graduate from Andhra University, Visakhapatnam and an MBA from Templeton University, Philadelphia.

He began his career as a computer and IT engineer in the US and Norway before stepping into politics when he became the youngest MP in the ninth Lok Sabha in 1989.

A fellow of the Institution of Electronics and Telecommunications Engineers (IETE), Pallam Raju served as the chairman of the parliamentary standing committee on IT between August 2004 and January 2006. IANS

[somnath]

Pallam Raju has been obviously "buying" his education!!!

[Sanku]

Questioning and all is fine; but it does not appear to me that any of the questions being asked here are not the questions which IA has not asked itself and the Babu's when it could. Neither are any practical answers forthcoming from any of the questioner's either -- IA has to make do with intermediate answers that it can itself conjure up.

Doesnt seem like a very meaningful exercise to me going on here.

[Mohan G]

^ Agree. I also feel odd answering 'can you stand in siachin' type arguments.

The main issues were shortage of officers, SSC vs PC, and more specialization in officer cadre. Somnath has one idea. Other people haven't proposed their ideas. Ray C has suggested an SSC scheme with 'guaranteed commensurate job given after the contractual service', without providing any details.

So that's where we stand now.

[RayC]

^ Agree. I also feel odd answering 'can you stand in siachin' type arguments.

The main issues were shortage of officers, SSC vs PC, and more specialization in officer cadre. Somnath has one idea. Other people haven't proposed their ideas. Ray C has suggested an SSC scheme with 'guaranteed commensurate job given after the contractual service', without providing any details.

So that's where we stand now.

Mohan,

I have not had any hassles of PC vs SSC since I am clear that all are equally capable.

But sure, if you want anyone to give 5 years of his youth for the Nation, you sure have to guarantee him some safety net for the remainder of his useful life!

Is that something too much for SS officers to ask?

What details are you wanting?

It appears you merely wish to troll.

Why are you shying off from stating what you do?

Yes, it is odd to answer çan you stand post at Siachen. It takes a man to do so!

Seen Siachen?

At least George Fernandez has!

[Mohan G]

^ No comments on Siachin.

Unfortunately or fortunately I don't watch much TV.

Coming to point, I am more interested in finding out what kind of guaranteed job are you considering for a person who has devoted (say) 5 years in SSC ? Could you give some more details? How many officers (approx) will leave SSC every year under your scheme, and what jobs would you offer them?

[Mohan G]

You could think of entry into IAS/IPS but there are only about a 100 unreserved seats each year in these cadres. Would entry at the DySP/DyCollector level (with seniority and pay protected) be worth considering?

[RayC]

^ No comments on Siachin.

Unfortunately or fortunately I don't watch much TV.

Coming to point, I am more interested in finding out what kind of guaranteed job are you considering for a person who has devoted (say) 5 years in SSC ? Could you give some more details? How many officers (approx) will leave SSC every year under your scheme, and what jobs would you offer them?

Watching the TV and watching the News are two different things.

Or reading the newspaper, online commentaries and so on!

Gathering knowledge from any source is important and more so understanding them!

SSC is a 5 years scheme. It is NOT my scheme.

Find out and understand it and don't expect one to spoonfeed you on what is available for the average intelligent man to know and understand!

[Mohan G]

Pallam Raju has been obviously "buying" his education!!!

The honorary doctorate may be a little off, but the other part of his education seems fine. As for the MBA, even some of our industrialists (like Anil Ambani) have one from the US.

But, really, do you need a doctorate degree for being an effective defence minister?

[somnath]

RayC,

Unless you start with the fundamental assumption that there are differential skills that can be matched with differential "merit", once cannot start looking at the issue.

I set up a list of questions in one my earlier posts - restating them:

In equilibrium state, (say) 65% of the officer corps is from the SSC. Plus, a much "narrower" pyramid - so much less nos of Lt cols, Cols, Brigadiers and Gen staff officers.

How much do we save in salaries?
How much do we save in pensions?
How much do we save in benefits?
How much do we save in "infrastructure" - permanent housing, medical, canteens etc?
How much do we save in training?
How much do we spend in golden handshake and associated benefits?

Would you be able to throw some light on the numbers required? Or some source?