Indian Missile Technology Discussion

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 08 Feb 2009 09:18

LOL

Yeah, but this time I need to smoke something more finer

I sure hope the two of you have history. If you don't I'll roll you each a joint!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2009 09:18

Arun_S wrote:Just a friendly note that following remark is condescending /disparaging to other BRFites reading this thread (including me), and rubs wrong way unnecessarily.
George J wrote:You children need to start reading more.

Emmm ....thats his fatherly love for all of us

George J · Post by **George J** » 08 Feb 2009 09:25

Anurag wrote:.....I sure hope the two of you have history. If you don't I'll roll you each a joint!

Yeah we do, Arun S (and family) were very gracious host and Arun even put up with some of my non-jingo friends, patiently explaining the nuances of the nuclear India to them.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Feb 2009 11:12

BTW, IDR has published Arun's article on the way to a credible deterrent. I saw that in the contents page of the latest issue!

Austin let me think about it.

DRDO Techfocus on Dhanush

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 08 Feb 2009 12:10

ramana wrote:BTW, IDR has published Arun's article on the way to a credible deterrent. I saw that in the contents page of the latest issue!

Austin let me think about it.

Thanks for pointing out. Just saw Indian Defense Review's ToC at:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/wp-c ... ntents.pdf

DEFENCE & TECHNOLOGY MONITOR
• INDIA‘S MISSION TO MOON, G Madhavan Nair Pg:16
• INDIAN AIR FORCE OF THE FUTURE, Air Marshal BK Pandey Pg: 28
• WAY TO A CREDIBLE DETERRENT, Arun S Vishwakarma Pg: 40
• SHOURYA/SAGARIKA MISSILE, Arun S Vishwakarma Pg:51
• INDIAN DEFENCE PROCUREMENT REGIME: Dissuasive Features, Major General Mrinal Suman Pg:56

I am happy to note that IDR recognized the importance of the nuclear issue and gave space to the 11 page long article on Nuclear Deterrent, that deals with wide aspects of the issue. This article is also made available to BR's SRR Adminullah for its next issue.

The "SHOURYA/SAGARIKA MISSILE" is a 4 page article, it will be made available on BR website after 15 Feb.

I thank all BRFites who helped in writing / reviewing it.

Lancer Publishers will put this IDR issue on wide publicity at Aero India-2009, feel free to ask for a complimentary copy at the "Lancer Publishers" booth.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Feb 2009 12:14

You are Welcome Arun Ji!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Feb 2009 12:48

A link on Asian Air to surface weapons

PGMS

and
Regional PGMs

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Feb 2009 13:06

Austin for you!

LINK

BrahMos missile deployed on INS Rajput; eight more warships to follownews

06 October 2007

The Indian Navy has already deployed the Indo-Russian BrahMos supersonic cruise missile on the INS Rajput, P Venugopal, director, Defence Research and Development Laboratories (DRDL) and head of the BrahMos mission told a packed audience at the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT), Powai, Mumbai, which is holding the aerospace meet Zephyr 2007.

INS Ranjit is next in line among the eight warships that the Indian Navy has planned to equip with this missile. Each ship will be fitted with four missile launchers, two on each side of the vessel. The Indian Army has already inducted its first group of truck-launched missiles.

He said BrahMos was just one of the 10 missiles that DRDL''s missile group has produced or is working on. The cruise missile has high accuracy and low observability, he said, and showed several exciting film clips on the tests the missile has been subjected to during induction trials. The missile has already gone through 14 trials, all of which have been successful.

BrahMos has two variants for specific targets, and four platform variants, he disclosed. There is an anti-ship version and an anti-land-based targets version. As far as launching is concerned, the missile can be launched from a mobile land-based vehicle (truck or train), from a ship, from a submarine or from an aircraft. While the first two launch platforms have already been deployed, the submarine-launched system is yet to be tested, while the air-launched version is still under development.

The four-tonne rocket has a diameter of 70 cm and is 8 metres long. It has a maximum range of 300km and a payload of 500kg. Both the latter are the maximum limits mandated by the international missile control regime, he said, hinting that they could have achieved higher parameters in these two areas had it not been for the limits.

The missile can fly from a sea-skimming height of just 10 metres above the waves to an altitude of 15km. While it can achieve a maximum velocity of Mach 2 in the denser air at sea level, this goes up to Mach 2.7 in the rarefied upper atmosphere above 7 km, he said.

The missile has three propulsion systems. First, a gas generator blows it out of its canister, then a solid fuel booster speeds it up to Mach 2, after which an air-breathing liquid fuel ramjet takes over to propel it to its target.

Thanks to an onboard inertial navigation system with three gyroscopes and three accelerometers, it is a "fire and forget" weapon, requiring no further guidance from the control centre once the target has been assigned and it is launched. Once assembled, it has a 10-year shelf life, requiring a routine preventive maintenance check once every three years.

The missile can be launched at any angle, from horizontal to vertical, and is extremely destructive. Two types of warheads can be deployed - while one explodes on contact, the other penetrates the target by impact and then explodes a few milliseconds later. Anti-jamming systems onboard protect it from electronic countermeasures as well as enable it to distinguish between the target and decoys like chaff screens.

The missiles can be fired in waves. Each truck carries three missile canisters, a generator and a control centre. The three missiles can be fired just 5 seconds after one another, and each can be independently targeted. For sea-based targets like ships, an airborne surveillance system like an aircraft, a helicopter or an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) is required to relay the coordinates of the target to the control centre.

The missile has been developed with active private sector cooperation. While Godrej Aerospace produces the airframe, wings, as well as the pneumatic and hydraulic systems, Larsen and Toubro (L&T) makes the composites and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) makes the inertial navigation system and missile checkout system.

The air-launched version, still under development, will be deployed on the Sukhoi Su-30 fighter-bomber. When launched from an aircraft, the missile does not need a canister, Venugopal said. The aircraft releases the missile, and the solid booster ignites as soon as it is about 100 metres away from the plane.

An accompanying film showed how the Navy fired the missile from the INS Rajput at its intended target, a decommissioned ship, which broke into two on explosion, and then sank within four minutes. The test of the land-based target showed that the missile hit within one to two metres from the target''s epicentre, at a range of 55 km. The test was conducted in cyclonic wind conditions, confirming the weapon''s robustness, he said.

But as if that is not enough, Venugopal said further refinements are in the pipeline. This includes a GPS receiver that will enable the control centre to make minute adjustments during flight, to achieve pinpoint accuracy. A new seeker system, called SCAN, will help achieve this by giving the control centre a visual image of the target, enabling the control team to home it in on a particular part of the target.

So it already has INS with full three axis gyros and accelerometers! SCAN is a GPS reciver to augment the existing INS and to give extra control to pick a target.

So lets wait for Feb 20th or so.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2009 13:38

Thanks Ramana , but I am still confused , are they hiding some aspect and revealing some of SCAN seeker , for example the link which I have posted above , clearly states that Shri NAGARAJ SS is a system manager for SCAN Imaging Radar , the only authentic reference i have found which points to anImaging Radar capability of SCAN.

But we will wait and see if something more comes up.

BTW how would an operator sitting in a control center will have the time or visual ability to discriminate a small target amongst a cluster and make minute adjustement to home in on a particular part of target , when brahmos is flying low at 10 m , doing terminal manouver all at the same time it is flying at high supersonic Mach 2 , some how this is quite unbelievable , so far this terminal man in loop type control was only possible with subsonic missile and that too of one look at video of such subsonic missile , its really a quick thing to do for any operator , but then it could just be me here

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Feb 2009 14:43

I thank all BRFites who helped in writing / reviewing it.

my pleasure saar ji !

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 08 Feb 2009 14:49

While Godrej Aerospace produces the airframe, wings, as well as the pneumatic and hydraulic systems, Larsen and Toubro (L&T) makes the composites and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) makes the inertial navigation system and missile checkout system.

really happy with private sector participation. They probably are now capable enough to entire missiles hardware.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 08 Feb 2009 14:53

My feeling is that SCAN is some sort of high resolution short range radar like millimetric-wave active radar seeker which will give image like resolution.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Feb 2009 15:05

SCAN needs more test to be successful. per livefist there is another test next week.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Feb 2009 15:16

Here is another report on the recent test of BraMho missile. Please read carefully the highlighted portions.

Dilip K Khashnobish
------------------------------
SATURDAY 7 FEBRUARY 2009
Truthout Original *Mystery of an Indian Missile Test Flop*
Friday 06 February 2009
by: J. Sri Raman, t r u t h o u t | Perspective

[image: photo]

On January 20, 2009, a cruise missile test, which India's security
establishment had billed as crucial, failed. It did so in a curious manner,
though the cause of the failure is yet to be officially announced.

The questions raised by the failure may appear to be only technical at first
glance. They, however, can serve to highlight a military trade war between
far-off powers fueling a missile race in South Asia.

The $2.7 million BrahMos missile had been tested several times before, but
the last month's exercise was supposed to be a considerable leap forward. It
tested a nuclear-capable version of the missile performing an advanced
mission - hitting a predetermined, hidden target. The flight was a success,
but the missile missed the target.

The missile, with a range of 290 kilometers, was to hit "an insignificant
target" hidden among "obstructions" in the Pokharan test range (the arid
desert site in the poverty-stricken State of Rajasthan, where the
nuclear-weapon tests of May 1998 were conducted). The missile, a product of
Russian-Indian collaboration, failed the test because of not any flaw in the
trajectory but an inexplicable non-functioning of US satellites.

*Interestingly, India's Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO)
first declared the test a success. The claim was hastily withdrawn when Gen.
Deepak Kapoor, chief of army staff of the Indian Army, insisted on visiting
the target site in person. His finding was that the missile had overshot the
target by a kilometer, and the failure was formally announced.*

General Kapoor went on to let the media know that the army might call off
the BrahMos deal. The proposal for purchase of 240 of the missiles for two
regiments of the army, he indicated, was to be shelved until the missile's
capability was proven.

The BrahMos has been developed as a joint venture between the DRDO of India
and the Federal State Unitary Enterprise NPO Mashinostroyenia (NPOM) of
Russia under BrahMos Aerospace. The missile is named after two major rivers,
the Brahmaputra of India and the Moskva of Russia. Tests have continued for
over four years now, but the missile has never won unreserved acceptance
despite being peddled as an important component of an ambitious missile
program.

The surface-hugging, supersonic cruise missile can, unlike a ballistic
missile, evade radar detection and avoids the dangers of soaring into space
and reentering the atmosphere. Though it can hit land-based targets, it is
designed primarily as an anti-ship missile. Flying at a speed of Mach 2.8
(roughly that many times t

A device called the seeker helps the missile detect "insignificant" targets
through heat or radiation. The seeker had functioned successfully during the
earlier tests of BrahMos. Flummoxed experts could not explain the failure,
until they discovered that "US satellites (on which the missile depended
totally) blinked during the test window, thereby denying the missile the
crucial inputs needed for its guidance," as one report put it. With the
space guides strangely allowing themselves a shut-eye, the global
positioning system (GPS) of the eight-meter, 3,000-kilogram missile could
not steer it to the target.

An inquiry was immediately ordered into why satellites went on an instant
strike. The probe report was to be submitted to Defense Minister A. K.
Antony on Wednesday, February 4, but it has not been made public so far. The
test, the country was told, would be repeated on February 20, but no
official confidence has been expressed about its outcome.

Conspiracy theories may be unwarranted but, in such matters, corporate
warfare can hardly be ruled out.

Russia has been a major seller of military equipment to India, inheriting
the role from the Soviet Union. In recent years, however, its reliability as
a supplier has been questioned, especially in sections of media that
staunchly support a "strategic partnership" with the US. The BrahMos deal
has come in for particularly bitter criticism.

Cruise missiles, on the other hand, are supposed to have become more popular
with the militarists of India after their wide use in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The US forces, recall these backers of George Bush's "war on terror," fired
nearly 1,000 such missiles when they first entered Iraq for its lethal
"liberation."

The missile offers to India from the US military-industrial complex in the
recent period have been many, and they have been received well in the
corporate-controlled media and military-linked think-tanks.

In April 2007, India was offered one of the most advanced, shipboard US
missile defense systems, capable of tracking and neutralizing up to 100
attacking missiles. At that time, the sales pitch was that the Aegis system
could be integrated with the BrahMos as well as other Indian missiles. The
lobbying firm was unofficially identified as Lockheed Martin.

In September 2008, India was offered a $170 million deal for two dozen
Harpoon air-to-ground, anti-ship missiles. The next month brought the
proposal for a bigger deal - for an unspecified number of "smart missiles"
or sensor fused weapons (SFWs) for $375 million. The missile was sought to
be marketed as one "designed to accurately detect and defeat a wide range of
moving and stationary land and maritime target threats with minimal
collateral damage" - a claim that victims and witnesses of the war on Iraq
may not vouch for. The Texton Systems Corporation of Massachusetts was
mentioned as the main contractor.

All this talk of profitable corporate contributions to the "strategic
partnership" could not but have caused concern in India's neighborhood, and
Pakistan did not take long to respond in kind. On January 8, 2009, the
Pakistan Navy announced its purchase of 120 C-602 long-range. anti-ship
cruise missiles (with active seekers) from China to counter the threat from
India. The missile race in South Asia can be expected to heat up further in
the foreseeable future.

*The astronomical costs of the accelerated race are not stopping the buyers
and sellers of BrahMos and mass-murder weapons of other brands. They may
evince no interest in another piece of statistics about India and Pakistan:
in neither country does per-capita income exceed three dollars a day, even
according to fudged official figures*.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 08 Feb 2009 15:32

what's the source chetak ji ? reads like a low level hatchet job from a commie rag.
link please.

(the arid desert site in the poverty-stricken State of Rajasthan, where the
nuclear-weapon tests of May 1998 were conducted).

Tests have continued for
over four years now, but the missile has never won unreserved acceptance
despite being peddled as an important component of an ambitious missile
program.

At that time, the sales pitch was that the Aegis system
could be integrated with the BrahMos

They may evince no interest in another piece of statistics about India and Pakistan:
in neither country does per-capita income exceed three dollars a day, even
according to fudged official figures*.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Feb 2009 15:49

Rahul M wrote:what's the source chetak ji ? reads like a low level hatchet job from a commie rag.
link please.

(the arid desert site in the poverty-stricken State of Rajasthan, where the
nuclear-weapon tests of May 1998 were conducted).

Tests have continued for
over four years now, but the missile has never won unreserved acceptance
despite being peddled as an important component of an ambitious missile
program.

At that time, the sales pitch was that the Aegis system
could be integrated with the BrahMos

They may evince no interest in another piece of statistics about India and Pakistan:
in neither country does per-capita income exceed three dollars a day, even
according to fudged official figures*.

Rahul M ji,

The source is here

http://www.truthout.org/020609B

Assuming it were true, not saying it is, but...

and looking only at the highlighted part of the article

Its easy enough to blank out the satellite for a few minutes but it would require a very high order of coordination and a hot to trot live link at the launch site itself.

They would never have launched the missile had it failed to acquire GPS lock prior to launch.

kit · Post by **kit** » 08 Feb 2009 16:43

Well that shows that whatever you mijjiles you might throw at mighty uncle or its allies may not work because some thing ( who knows what the next time around !) could blink (sic!) at the last minute. a.k.a hard ware trojans !
did some one think of vested business interests here .. culprit could as well be in the IA itself ! after all they have the arjun saga to sing and a very interested honcho who made a spot visit immediately to bull shit the whole program.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Feb 2009 16:56

kit wrote:Well that shows that whatever you mijjiles you might throw at mighty uncle or its allies may not work because some thing ( who knows what the next time around !) could blink (sic!) at the last minute. a.k.a hard ware trojans !
did some one think of vested business interests here .. culprit could as well be in the IA itself ! after all they have the arjun saga to sing and a very interested honcho who made a spot visit immediately to bull shit the whole program.

kit ji,

Which is why India must become immediately part of or fund

European Unions ambitious Galileo global positioning system, or

Russia's Global Orbiting Navigation Satellite System (GLONASS).

Or build its own system

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2009 17:06

Raj Malhotra wrote:My feeling is that SCAN is some sort of high resolution short range radar like millimetric-wave active radar seeker which will give image like resolution.

I am thinking along the same line , it has to be an imaging radar if wants to hit insignificant target in deep gorge with a clutter background and in all weather conditions with complex terminal manouvering to top up.

The EO seeker (visual image) is a way to confirm to the ground control center and hence a secondary backup so to speak, although the EO is not fool proof in that it may not work in bad weather.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 08 Feb 2009 19:08

if we have that kind of imaging radar seekers, then it would be a gr8 solution for PGMs too.
this was shown in discovery i guess. the fighter aircraft takes the high-resolution radar image of the target using its own Radar in SAR mode, the image is loaded on to the PGM, then its launched, it uses its own seeker to scan the region and compare it with the preloaded image and then hit the target.

Fighters should be able to do that at standoff range with glide bombs or cruise missiles and powerful AESA with high-res SAR mode. no need for a UAV to take pictures of target.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 08 Feb 2009 22:43

Raj Malhotra wrote:My feeling is that SCAN is some sort of high resolution short range radar like millimetric-wave active radar seeker which will give image like resolution.

I tend to agree. Only millimetric radar seeker can fit that small BrahMos radome and make a rough RF picture ahead. Looks like this "Vasuki (:URL)" has seeker of Nag. The key element continues to be the Digital Signal Processing to fuse the target 3D terrarin (from airborne surveillance assets used for target planning) obtained from optical source, and whose RF image is thus unknown but can be roughly estimated and correlate and fuse it with realtime RF image from SCAN. The beauty of such arrangement is that missile gets very accurate range and angular bearing (very small DOP: Dilution Of Precision) w.r.t. real target. The system is at its weak point during handoff (initialization) of SCAN correlator w.r.t. actual ground position when handoff occurs. INS inaccuracy can dramtically increase the time required for SCAN to be engaged. This could explain the failure, and the solution lies in relooking/strengthening the code to make it more robust.

But this whole thing of precision attack using RF imaging in small package (using millimeter wave) is ingenious. Hats off to DRDO and BrahMos team.

BTW this scheme is more robust than optical seekers (where ranging precision is poor as well as problem of all weather performance). OTOH the targets RF image will change depending on surface humidity and wetness. Thus the system has to undergo regiorous testing in different environment, good thing is that Mig-21 platform is ideal for these Mach-2 test flights.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Feb 2009 23:09

Cool , Nice Explanation Arun , yes indeed Hats off to Brahmos team.
My IDR issue should be on the way too

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 09 Feb 2009 00:22

India needs its own positioning sat system, theres no use giving in to pressures that seek to "outsource" such stuff. By the way, any capabilities or plans for anti-sat missile operations?

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 09 Feb 2009 03:13

brihaspati wrote:India needs its own positioning sat system, theres no use giving in to pressures that seek to "outsource" such stuff. By the way, any capabilities or plans for anti-sat missile operations?

OR a Terrain map following variant of Brahmos that does not need a positioning sat system. Sats can be shot down with missiles as practiced by Panda and Amirkhan

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Feb 2009 03:21

we do have a plan for the IRNSS which should do fine for our needs.

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 09 Feb 2009 04:10

I agree that we should have our independent satellites for military applications. If we depend on GPS signals of US of A for such applications then amrikis will make sure that such signals are never fed to India in case there is a conflict of interest at some point. India must remain independent in defence sector.
IRNSS is a good starting point. It start with a series of seven satellites - I just hope it grows to get a global coverage soon.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 09 Feb 2009 04:39

IRNSS:

The proposed system would consist of a constellation of seven satellites and a support ground segment. Three of the satellites in the constellation will be placed in geostationary orbit and the remaining four in geosynchronous inclined orbit of 29° relative to the equatorial plane. Such an arrangement would mean all seven satellites would have continuous radio visibility with Indian control stations. The satellite payloads would consist of atomic clocks and electronic equipment to generate the navigation signals. The navigation signals themselves would be transmitted in the S-band frequency (2-4 GHz) and broadcast through a phased array antenna to maintain required coverage and signal strength. The satellites would weigh approximately 1,330 kg and their solar panels generate 1,400 watts.

The System is intended to provide an absolute position accuracy of better than 20 meters throughout India and within a region extending approximately 2,000 km around it.

The satellite placement and altitude mean that they are immune to intervention by missiles at least for the foreseeable future. Can't yet spend that much effort and money to build an anti geostationary satellite missile!
Isn't the accuracy of "better than 20 meters" on the higher side? Or is this a chankyan way of saying "Accuracy better than 1 Kilometer onlee" - one all encompassing and vague statement.
Also 2000 Km is less than an A-II or an A-III target location from India's borders.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 09 Feb 2009 05:24

chetak wrote:
kit wrote:Well that shows that whatever you mijjiles you might throw at mighty uncle or its allies may not work because some thing ( who knows what the next time around !) could blink (sic!) at the last minute. a.k.a hard ware trojans !
did some one think of vested business interests here .. culprit could as well be in the IA itself ! after all they have the arjun saga to sing and a very interested honcho who made a spot visit immediately to bull shit the whole program.
kit ji,

Which is why India must become immediately part of or fund

European Unions ambitious Galileo global positioning system, or

Russia's Global Orbiting Navigation Satellite System (GLONASS).

Or build its own system

AFAIK India has done all the three

Russia And India Sign Agreements On Glonass Navigation System

India Climbs Aboard European Galileo GPS Project

-There were reports that India is quitting Galileo.

- Everyone knows about IRNSS..

prataparudra · Post by **prataparudra** » 09 Feb 2009 05:42

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/KA16Ad01.html

Page 1 of 2
China can't stop India's missile system
By Peter J Brown

India considers its emerging anti-missile system an absolute necessity. As each day passes, the signs of instability in Pakistan become more troubling and the drum beat grows louder from Pakistan's Swat Valley, where a militant culture is taking root which is neither tolerant nor passive in nature.

Beijing cannot be happy about India's anti-missile plans and what this might mean for China's long-term strategic interests in the region. More than anything else, it is the uncertainty of the outcome that is causing it such discomfort. The US seems determined to surround China with US-built anti-missile systems. Using North Korea as a valid e....

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 09 Feb 2009 14:20

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 091222.htm

Army not to induct BrahMos without further trials

New Delhi (PTI): After its failure last month, Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor has said his force would prefer further trials of BrahMos missile to be sure of the weapon's success, rather than hurrying up induction.

"No," he said when asked if the army would induct BrahMos' new vertical-launch version once it was ready.

"We (the Army) are consumers here. We will like to go through further trials to prove its success. We will congratulate them whenever the missiles passes the test. It is wrong to waste public money," General Kapoor told PTI in an interview.

The 290-km range supersonic cruise missile, developed jointly by India and Russia under a joint venture, failed to hit its intended target during tests in the Pokhran ranges in Rajasthan desert last month.

Asked if the DRDO had complaints over the Army "leaking" information on the failed BrahMos test, Kapoor clarified that the army had reservations over DRDO's initial claim that the missile trial was a success.

He said he was present during the missile testing in Rajasthan recently and watched the test-firing from about a kilometre away. The target was 53 kilometres away from the missile launch site, he said.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Feb 2009 17:21

p_saggu wrote:IRNSS:
Isn't the accuracy of "better than 20 meters" on the higher side?

Per the July 2008 presentation on IRNSS, the 'accuracy over adjacent countries' will be 10m.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 09 Feb 2009 17:26

cross posting

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20090209_dr_prahlad.html

DRDO has developed extreme technologies, says Dr Prahlad news

In a wide ranging,comprehensive interview on DRDO's capabilties and development programme, Dr Prahalad, chief controller R&D (SI), points out that the gap between users needs and DRDO's capabilities is reducing. The organisation is now fully capable of working out a road map with the army, navy and air force to develop weapon systems needed over the next 5-7 years.

Dr Prahalad,
Distinguished scientist and chief controller, R&D (SI), DRDO

1. Could you speak about the Akash and Nag missiles? How do they fare with comparable technologies and how far away are they from induction?

The Akash and Nag missiles were part of the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme begun in 1984 under Dr Abdul Kalam as the chairman. We then took a purposeful decision that Akash and Nag would be the most complex and sophisticated missile systems in the IGMDP.

So, it was given the maximum time also, as compared to Prithvi, Trishul and Agni and others. Akash and Nag were given nearly 15 years. So, we knew at that time it was a very complex system and taking up the challenge we began developing these two systems.

In case of Akash, it has been uniquely configured and customised for our own Indian Army and air force. During the initial discussions with the army and the air force, they gave some requirements like it should be mobile, it should have a 30 km range, a very effective high kill probability, it should be integrated with the automatic command and control system, it cannot be manually operated, should have multiple target handling capability, which means that several targets could be engaged with several missiles simultaneously.

In most missile systems you have boost and coast – that is you boost the missile for some time and allow it to coast, or, boost, sustain and coast. The requirement here, however, was continuous thrust, or, all the way thrust. Once you start coasting, the maneuverability of the missile comes down. This was not acceptable to the services. They felt it should be continuously maneuverable till it intercepts the target, which meant the requirement was that the power/thrust had to be continuously on.

These were a unique set of requirements –such a missile doesn't exist anywhere in the world and it meant that we had to uniquely configure the missiles. That's how Akash was realised, We took 5 years more than what we promised to the army and air force, but when tested in the last development phase the results were 9/9 –that is out of the 9 missiles tested all them met the guidance and accuracy control requirements. Based on these tests the Indian Air Force has placed orders for 2 squadrons and the army is expected to follow suit.

Bharat Electronics will be the nodal production agency along with Bharat Dynamics and there will be at least 40 industries from the public and private sectors that will be involved with the manufacture of these missiles in large numbers.

So, this is one story and we expect that based on the expenditure of Rs600 crore that we have invested in the Akash missile, business worth about Rs7,000 crore should result for radars, missiles, launchers and control systems all put together within the next 5 years.

So, this is the story for Akash.

Coming to Nag, similarly, this missile is meant for the army, which wanted a missile with a 4-km range and fire-and-forget capability. That means we launch the missile from a tank and leave the place - this is also called the shoot-and-scoot technique. The Nag was specifically designed with a fire-and-forget capability.

The missile has what is called a tandem warhead. The warhead will have two stages – in the first stage the missile will make a hole in an enemy tank and in the second stage it will go inside and blow it up. This is a very special technology and we had to perfect it.

So this is the Nag- a tandem warhead, 4-km, tank-mounted, fire-and-forget, and very accurate, missile.

The last flight test has been successfully completed in day and night desert conditions in short range and long range test firings and we expect the army to place an order over the next couple of months.

2. The 'Shaurya' was a surprise development – where does it fit into the Indian missile spectrum?

If you look at our long-range strategic missiles you know we have Prithvi and Agni for ballistic or near-ballistic systems. Prithvi is a liquid fuel system and Agni is a solid fuel system.

Now the Agni has certain mobility, certain freedom to move from place to place. The Prithvi has its own certain requirements - it requires preparation time because of its liquid engines.

So we had to configure a unique third missile called 'Shaurya' which can be canisterised. Once sealed in a canister, it can be taken to any place giving it great tactical and operational advantage. It canbe deployed anywhere - in hilly terrain, desert etc. It is a relatively light, highly mobile, solid propellant fuelled missile. There is no preparation required.

So it has its own USP - and as per the requirement of the services we will be taking up the production of Shaurya.

3. The country's BMD technology would appear to be moving apace – could you dwell on aspects of the technologies that are being brought into play for the whole programme?

Ballistic Missile Defence or missile defence systems, are developed based on the threat perceptions as presented to us by the armed forces, which take into consideration threats from our neighbours, their plans etc. Based on these inputs we are developing certain critical technologies against ballistic missiles.

For this we need some unique technologies, such as high-speed propulsion, which can take missiles to hypersonic speeds. You need a high burning rate, solid propellants, which can take the missile quickly to high Mach number.

We need very high accuracy guidance so that the missile can even physically obliterate a hostile missile – what is called a hit-to-kill capability. For this we need not only radio gadgets but also thermal infra-red gadgets. So for this we need a combined dual-guidance –not only radar but also imaging guidance. This requires very high accuracy algorithms.

Also we need very quick reaction systems. When somebody launches a ballistic missile the time available to react to the threat is very short - a few seconds. So, the instant you know a missile has been launched you have to launch the defence system within seconds, fly at a much higher speed than the attacking missile and intercept very accurately at very high altitudes. So this requires what is known as extreme technologies. These have now been developed and we are trying to integrate these technologies and produce a weapon that can be used by the armed forces.

4. How do you look at an era of increased international cooperation in the development of technologies in the defence sector?

This is the new era of 2000+. In the 80s when we started our major system programmes like Arjun or Sonar or IGMDP or torpedo or radar, we never had the opportunity of international co-operation.

We were buying some components and making everything in-house. We built the computer from scratch from circuit boards. That was an era where we had to do everything in-house and within our industries and everything was a long drawn out and hard process.

Whereas in 2000, fortunately, the whole world has recognised our capability by seeing our LCA, main battle tank Arjun, radars, torpedoes, missiles and small arms that are in production. Our capabilities in prototyping, developing, testing and fielding our own weapons have been recognised.

So now they know that they cannot take us for granted. If they want business, they have to work together. Many countries have come forward for collaborative research and joint development. We have projects now with USA, Israel, Russia, Italy, Germany, Belarus, Brazil, France, UK among others.

In the 80s era what used to take 15 years to make we can now make in 5 years to 7 years. So, we have cut down the development time by almost 1/3rd because of the immense opportunities for international collaboration.

5. With respect to the areas of missiles could you dwell on two aspects:

b)One being the development of technology in this sector
c)The level of operationalisation that such technology has attained
Missile technologies are front-end technologies - very challenging and display characteristics such as high speed, high lethality, high maneuverability and quick reaction. So all this require the limits of technology whether you take materials, propulsion or control.

So of the technologies for this kind of technology for eg propulsion: solid propulsion, liquid propulsion and ramjet propulsion or if you take flight control systems and autocontrol systems, we need computers, electro actuation systems, lot of software intelligence for making the control system work and then we have navigation and guidance, we have to take the missile to long distances and guide it accurately to intercept the target.

When we take the warheads, each missile requires a different type of warhead Nag requires a tandem warhead, Akash requires a fragmentation warhead, Prithvi requires a runway penetration warhead.

We also have the C4I - command, control communication and intelligence integration. How do we do it? The missile is the part of network centric operation. We have to also develop guidance on how to use radar gadgets and imaging infrared technology to recognise targets using its thermal characteristics by getting a thermal picture to reach the tank and finding out its centre of gravity to hit it at the centre of the tank. This type of technology is the imaging infrared technology and you need millimeter wave technology for very accurate guidance and infrared imaging for imaging of a target.

So these technologies are required to be simultaneously developed for the missiles India has developed.

For operationalisation, these technologies go into the missiles eg: the Akash missile the ram jet propulsion is inside; the pre-fragmented warhead technology inside, very accurate radio or radar guidance is used in the missile system and auto pilot with a very powerful computer to make the missile maneuver to hit a maneuvering target, so you can out-maneuver a maneuvering target, at low, medium and high altitudes under any conditions rain, dust, summer, winter night etc.

So, these technologies get imbibed into the missile system, the ground system, the launcher system, and is integrated into the command control network. So the technology gets operationalised in the missile systems when they get fielded.

Now how we get these technologies? We have three strategies to develop: some of it is got from academic institutions. We go to the university professors, work with them on how to develop new science and technology.

Secondly, DRDO can jointly develop new technologies with industrial partners. For example, an actuation system, which we have mostly done in DRDO-industry collaboration.

Then comes foreign collaboration. Sometimes we develop technologies with foreign collaboration with our partner countries.

If none of this works, then the final strategy is in-house development within our laboratories and we have developed many technologies in-house.

So this is how we develop new technology, new science, perfect it and incorporate it into weapon systems

6. Obviously there exists 'dynamic tension' between the need to develop indigenous technologies and the need for the
services to be in a state of readiness, armed with contemporary technologies. How do you harmonise such tensions?

Fortunately this harmonisation is already taking place. Probably there was some gap in the capabilities of DRDO and the requirements of the armed forces. They require it fast and the latest to be made available. Since things were always available to them on their tables they always were bombarded with temptations to purchase but today two things are happening - arms research development and marketing has slowed down tremendously worldwide in comparison to the '80s. They are no more developing things just like that but develop it only on demand.

Secondly the armed forces have realised that a homegrown weapon system, sonar or radar etc has many advantages to them. They will be able to get life support very easily, product up-gradation, software and customisation. So, many things are possible and finally both cost of ownership, maintenance will be much lower if it is indigenously based and the things are available at your fingertips. So the armed forces are also trying to tap DRDO's capabilities to the maximum.

The gap between the user's needs and DRDO's capabilities is reducing. Today we are able to sit down with the army, navy air force to work out a road map on the kind of weapons they would need in the next 5-7 years. What new technologies they think we should develop and how to realise these technologies?

Thus we have generated 2 road maps - one for technology and the other for products. We have had extensive discussions on these even up to how they should look. For example Rustum, a medium altitude, long endurance unmanned vehicle where we have combined QRs (qualitative requirements) where the order rate is above 100 for all forces combined. When the services say that if you can develop this within the next 4 years within our requirements, at least an order of x number will be placed. The services are ready today how much they will order called MOQ (minimum order quantity).

When we have such a guarantee from the buyers, then it is easy to go the industry which can work with us to expedite the development because the industry will make the prototype, assemble it immediately and production time or realisation time will come down. Some of the industry partners are ready to fund the development cost also, even if it is 15 per cent or 20 per cent. When they fund the development cost they become the stakeholders and then responsibility increases and then it is produced according to specifications within the stipulated time and assemble and market it as well.

So, we are tying up the industry, the MOD, the three services and DRDO – we are converging, synergising, harmonising so we work together and see that the systems are developed for the good of the country, to meet our own a la carte service - customised to the taste, schedule, performance, quality, upgradation.

Plus this is also good for the health of the Indian economy as employment opportunities increase and industry capabilities increase, even drawing orders from other countries. Based on these technologies, I have observed that many of our SME and small-scale industries getting export orders.

So you see how the level of the economy goes up, the employment potential increases, our knowledge expands, university research level goes up, and our own departments of science and technology, their own understanding and knowledge goes up. So, as a country we can see an elevation of status technologically and economically.

With this harmony we see many good things happening

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 09 Feb 2009 19:30

BrahMos hums volume mantra for success.

Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace which has a production base here for supply of critical components to the space
and defence industries, will focus on volumes rather than margins as it embarks on its ambitious growth plans.

“It is our policy to satisfy our clients and work for the national good by doing volume business rather than focus on the margin”, BrahMos CEO and managing director A Sivathanu Pillai said here, pointing to the analogy of WalMart, too, being a success story based on large volumes and thin margins.

The second phase of expansion of BrahMos’ Thiruvananthapuram facility is being launched on Tuesday with the setting up of the missile integration complex. The facility here, which had a turnover of Rs 17 crore in 2007-08 is projected to end this fiscal with a top line of Rs 26 crore.

BrahMos presently has the ISRO, the DRDO and the Atomic Energy Commission as its chief clients, but in future a significant chunk of the revenues could come from the missile programmes. Mr Pillai said BrahMos was supplying the highly sophisticated robotic arm for use at the Bhaba Atomic Research Centre.

BrahMos is also working on its supersonic cruise missile which is already the world’s fastest at speeds of 2.8 mach. “We can’t rest simply because we have achieved something; others can overtake us”, Mr Pillai said, adding that his team was also working on air-to-surface missiles.

Referring to reports of a recent test of BrahMos missile being a `failure’, Mr Pillai said it was wrong to call it so, stating that the latest round of tests involved “complicated target engagement”, and that the missile did not match certain parameters owing to “software glitches”.

In the longer term, the projected annual turnover for BrahMos Trivandrum is placed at Rs 500 crore within three years and Rs 1,000 crore in five years.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Feb 2009 19:41

quoting from nitesh's post above.

We need very high accuracy guidance so that the missile can even physically obliterate a hostile missile – what is called a hit-to-kill capability. For this we need not only radio gadgets but also thermal infra-red gadgets. So for this we need a combined dual-guidance –not only radar but also imaging guidance. This requires very high accuracy algorithms.

interesting, this is a previously unknown revelation AFAIK.
AAD was told to be carrying a RF seeker only.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 09 Feb 2009 19:46

one more interesting point:

We also have the C4I - command, control communication and intelligence integration. How do we do it? The missile is the part of network centric operation. We have to also develop guidance on how to use radar gadgets and imaging infrared technology to recognise targets using its thermal characteristics by getting a thermal picture to reach the tank and finding out its centre of gravity to hit it at the centre of the tank. This type of technology is the imaging infrared technology and you need millimeter wave technology for very accurate guidance and infrared imaging for imaging of a target.

So does it refers to MMW tech which arun saar was talking some posts above in BrahMos?

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 09 Feb 2009 19:50

Vipul wrote:.
BrahMos presently has the ISRO, the DRDO and the Atomic Energy Commission as its chief clients, but in future a significant chunk of the revenues could come from the missile programmes. Mr Pillai said BrahMos was supplying the highly sophisticated robotic arm for use at the Bhaba Atomic Research Centre.

Where exactly this thing belongs? In refelling fuel for reactors?

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 09 Feb 2009 21:17

In most missile systems you have boost and coast – that is you boost the missile for some time and allow it to coast, or, boost, sustain and coast. The requirement here, however, was continuous thrust, or, all the way thrust. Once you start coasting, the maneuverability of the missile comes down. This was not acceptable to the services. They felt it should be continuously maneuverable till it intercepts the target, which meant the requirement was that the power/thrust had to be continuously on.

Is this the reason they chose Ramjet for Akash. Even the Meteor missile is reported to similar advantage with ramjet propulsion.

Flight international article on Meteor, dated- 13/11/96

For the missile-design fraternity, the key advantage of the ramjet sustainer is that it offers considerably greater energy for similar mass, providing about double the kinematic range of a comparable solid rocket.

While a solid-rocket-motor-powered missile, such as the Hughes AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile, will have a greater peak velocity than that of a comparable ramjet design, the ramjet will have a greater sustained velocity. In an air-to-air missile battle, superior energy equates with survival.

Grp Capt Graeme Smith, British Aerospace's military air advisor, says that"-current medium-range weapons suffer from a lack of overall total energy in that they do not have the manoeuvrability required to achieve a kill against a highly agile opponent: that is, they have a relatively small no-escape zone".

It is believed to have been just such a conclusion that prompted the RAFto look beyond a conventional solid-rocket design (for the EF2000, the AIM-120B) to a more capable missile with a greater energy for the "end-game engagement". There is no point in a missile reaching the final stage of the engagement if it cannot deal successfully with a target manoeuvring at 9G-plus. As a rule of thumb for a successful BVR engagement, a missile needs to have a minimum of three times the manoeuvre energy of its target. If a target pulls up to10G in an evasive manoeuvre, then the missile will need to sustain 30G-plus turns at the end of an engagement to record a kill.

Some sources indicate that RAF simulations of the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker and Flanker Plus derivatives and associated missiles versus the EF2000 with the AIM-120B revealed an unacceptably poor exchange ratio. The focus fell on providing the EF2000 with a missile, which has a far greater no-escape volume at BVR ranges.

As Smith points out, the BVR environment is also expanding, as heralded by the emergence of the Russian Vympel's long-burn R-27RE (AA-10 Alamo). Traditionally, the BVR engagement has gone out to around 40km (22nm). The next generation of BVRAAMs will push the engagement envelope to around 100km.

As well as providing increased absolute range, the rocket-booster/ramjet-sustainer design, more importantly, offers an increased no-escape zone. A ramjet-sustainer AAM potentially triples the volume of space within which the probability of a kill remains high.

So akash also would have advantages over a Solid fuel SAM.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 09 Feb 2009 21:40

Akash is ramjet powered and BrahMos also then why this

about engine tech?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 09 Feb 2009 21:46

Nitesh wrote:
Vipul wrote:.
BrahMos presently has the ISRO, the DRDO and the Atomic Energy Commission as its chief clients, but in future a significant chunk of the revenues could come from the missile programmes. Mr Pillai said BrahMos was supplying the highly sophisticated robotic arm for use at the Bhaba Atomic Research Centre.
Where exactly this thing belongs? In refelling fuel for reactors?

We have orders now to produce robotic arms used for nuclear industry.