PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

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Liu
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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 13 Feb 2009 23:16

amit wrote:Liu I posted a question to you several posts ago which you have either ignored or don't want to answer. I'll rephrase the question and post it again and hope you'll attempt to answer so that we can have a serious discussion going.

Q: What do you think will be effect of a fat U-shaped (or even a double L-shaped) economic recovery be on the Chinese economy? Do note that all indication, till now seem to indicate that things will get a lot worse before they start to get better and we could be looking at a 2-year period at the bottom part of the U curve.

I hope even an uber Chinese patriot like you realises that the Chinese market is not big enough to service even half of the US$4 trillion or so GDP if exports tank as all indications show they are.


1.My opinion is that China's economy will neither be "U-shaped" nor be " a doubl L-shaped. it is "V-shaped" and the forth quarter in 2008 the is bottom.
Driven by the harsh investment,China's growth in the first quarter of 2009 will rebound.even if the export decreases more.

2. Even if there were to be a 2 year period at bottom part of U-curve ,there would not "riots" or "mass-protests" in China as your thought.
In 1989-1991, CHina's economy growth was only 2%-4%, did "riots" or "mass-protests" happen to China?

ChandraS

Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby ChandraS » 13 Feb 2009 23:24

Liu wrote:But sometimes, the govenment would refuse the price the owners offered.when the amount of relocating-compesation is not agreed ,such funny stalemates often appear as showed in the picture:
Image


Liu,

In continuing with vsudhir's questions, does the 'superior' property distribution system have any facility for easement rights.
The picture above shows the opposite. Read up on Easement. Any property law not having easement rights is not worth the paper it is written on.

By your own admission, the relocated people are about an hour's commute away. In other words, the Chinese govt has deprived those people of nearly two hours of their daily life. Even if they get additional compensation in lieu of the new apts, is it sufficient to own or even rent a place in or nearby the new development? I think not, as Singha says - It is for the urban elites only not the unwashed poor. Lastly, land acquistion and relocation of existing people is not a purely economic affair. There are sociological considerations that have to be kept in mind for any acquisition and relocation scheme to be successful. Given that the people cannot sue for proper relief, the Chinese model, in your own words, fails to live up to your lofty pronouncements.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 00:42

vsudhir wrote:Liu,

Simple question onlee.

How easy and typical is it to sue the Chinese govt and actually win?
I mean, Is it even possible (coz last I heard that needs an independent judiciary, not a pakistan-style one)?

Sounds like a dumb question, right? Well, why that question gains importance is this - if the govt decides this 'slum' needs to go to accommodate the new china-disneyland, what recourse do the slumdwellers have? A court stay-order? really?
Now, if the chinese peasants have no recourse, why is the state under pressure to offer 'fair compensation'? Or are there never disputes about what is 'fair compensation' under china's superior system? (I can see how that works when the same entity (CCP) is everything - govt, judiciary, bank, contractor, lawmaker, law enforcer, and executioner).



good question!

1.Legally,Judciary in China is " independly" ,but in fact ,the leaders of local judiciaries are nominated by the leaders of local CCP branch . the budget of local judciary is also controlled by the leaders of local government.
So , In fact , Local judiciary in China is controlled by the Local CCP branch and local government.

2. If the govt decides this 'slum' needs to go to accommodate the new china-disneyland without reasonable compesation,the slumdwellers usually have two recources to trouble local governments.
a. Tell the case to the superior of the local government. it is a expensive way and lasts long time.
For example, if the city government didn't pay enough compensation, people would tell the case to the provincial government and ask the provincial government to stop the city government.
If even the provinical government still refuses to take any measues, people even can send the case to center government and ask a final judge from the center government.

b. organize enough people to protest on street together and attact the attention from Beijing and the public.
It seems funny but it is indeed a cheap and effective way,because any reported mass-protest would ruin the local leader's carears.

In china, if one or two people protest on streets, he or they would be arrested at once without much attention.
but if one or two hundred people protest on streets,the leaders of local governments would be dismissed at once.
So what the local officals fear most is "mass-protests",because "mass-protest" usually ruin their carears.




Which brings me back to the chinese system's inevitable superiority in rural-land distribution... if the peasant doesn't own the land but is merely a lessee from the state, what recourse does he/she have to a simple cancellation of the lease?

I am afraid that nobody would "cancell" the lease, because it is a free lease. peasant need not pay any money for the lease.
well, the land is legally owned by "villages" ,instead of "the state".
peasants rent land from "villages" freely.

Since transfer of title is anyway not possible for lesees, what do peasants do when the land is gone for rural redevelopment projects or whatever?
And if the said peasant has no recourse, why should the state bother with niceties of compensation etc? Wouldn't the Kim jong ill style of doing business be more 'efficient', eh?
----
Just wondering onlee.
Of course, let us grant that the PRC system has to be superior because the superior chinese designed it. Having agreed to that, lets us proceed further and appreciate these nuances of how this superior system works to ensure rights, harmony and prosperity to all.....


1, In industrialized Chinese coastal rural area, many villages have changed all its land into industry-zones and lease the land to companies and plants . in those industrialized villages, peasants have 3 kinds of income usually.
a. Distributed rents of village's land.The villages distribute the huge "rent" to every peasant as dividend and bonus. In pearal river Delta, such rent is quite considerable .
here is a typical village industry-zone in Pearal river delta
Image
b. rent of villiager's houses. villagers can lease some rooms of their houses to the workers in the industry-zone. such rent is much more than the rent of village' land.
the following is a typic industrialized village in pearal river delta . the building are all villager's houses rented by workers in local industry-zone.
http://files1.szhome.com/UploadFiles/BB ... 568622.jpg
c. villagers usually find another non-agriculture job when their land become industry-zones.

With the above 3 incomes, the villagers in industrialized costal china in fact is richer than most urban Chinese. with the rent for issurance, they can still live a cozy life even they are unemployed.



2. if " the state" wants to build a expressway through a village, " the state" has to "buy" the occupied land from "the village".
Just as I refered, the leaders of local governments usually have to do what they can do to stop or avoid " mass-protest",because once "mass-protest" is knowed by medias or the center government, they usually are dismissed.
Last edited by Rahul M on 14 Feb 2009 01:39, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited image link.DO NOT post large images inline. it screws up page format.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Raja Bose » 14 Feb 2009 00:54

Liu wrote:And I do have explained that how "urban villiages" , the Chinese "slum" you call,appears , what is the difference between "urban villages" and "slum" and why is it so hard for Chinese government to rebuild them.

If you still think "urban villages"=" slum", then Brooklyn in New York should be called " slum" too.


Trust me my parents know what a slum looks like (being from India onlee, right?). So you can call it 'urban village' or 'people's village' or 'Beverly Hills' for all I care but it is what it is...a slum. And yes they have seen Brooklyn too plenty of times...trust me the slums they saw in China were no Brooklyn.


1st world look is not limited within "a select few cities " such as Shanghai,Beijing and SHenzhen.
In fact, hundreds of small&medious-sized cities and counties in coastal China are also as "1st world look" as Shanghai,Beijing and Shenzhen. Many of them are even richer and cozier than Shanghai,such as
"Zhangjiagan"(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=798124),
"Xiamen"(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=560218),
"Dongguan"(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=522195)
"Suzhou"(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=501818)
"Hangzhou"(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=787794)
Obviously , I don't think you parent have visited those above medium&small-sized cities.
when hundreds of cities with 300-400 million dwellers in look like "1st world like" ,I don't think such can be called "showcase".
.


Selective pictures never tell the story....one has to physically visit the place and be there for atleast a few days to get the right impression. I can show you '1st world' looking pics from just about every city/town I have visited in India....that hardly means they have become 1st world by any means!

Yes my parents did visit quite a few medium sized cities and some villages (do you have a new name for those too??)...they were after all in China for nearly a month. And in case you haven't got the point which a lot of postors on this thread are making.....just because your downtown Shenzhen looks shiny doesnt imply all the 100s of millions of its residents live in '1st world' style. On the contrary, the opposite seems to be true. As an analogy, it is more of a case of shoving the dirt under the carpet as opposed to ensuring there is no dirt. So the dirt is there, its just carefully hidden away from foreign eyes hence, I termed it as a 'showcase'. In China you can do that and nobody is the wiser because your government is not answerable to the people (ironic since it is called 'People's' Republic of China) and can pretty much do whatever it wants whenever it wants to look good and save face.

Like I said you can justify all you want and paint a glorious picture but the reality begs to differ. BTW I also have some college friends who live in China and have worked there for the past 6-7 years. Less said about their experiences the better....so all is not glorious hunky dory progress in China land as you and the other Chinese postors here would like us to believe.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Raja Bose » 14 Feb 2009 01:00

Liu wrote:
2. if " the state" wants to build a expressway through a village, " the state" has to "buy" the occupied land from "the village".
Just as I refered, the leaders of local governments usually have to do what they can do to stop or avoid " mass-protest",because once "mass-protest" is knowed by medias or the center government, they usually are dismissed.


Now we all know how mass protest participants are pacified and made to calm down in China, dont we? :mrgreen:
Image

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby sanjaykumar » 14 Feb 2009 01:18

http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=5551

China is the Potomkin village.

Suraj
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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Suraj » 14 Feb 2009 01:37

Liu wrote:2.well, I come to here and just want provide a more accurate pictures of China to India people here.

Perhaps because people can't read chinese themselves and has only limited way to acquire first-hand news about china ,people's image on CHina today still influenced by "western medias". Often western medias are not quite reliable .

As you can see from the responses, the jury is till out on whether yours is an 'accurate picture of China'. When a new poster comes in with a bunch of Shenzhen pictures, the response here is 'oh no, not another drone'. You'll get very little respect and validation with that approach here. Rather, you'll be ripped apart, as you're being now.

Further, how about I throw your argument back at you - most of the western portrayals of India are equally skewed, overemphasizing their pet fetishes of Indian poverty and backwardness over development. There are multiple threads on the strat forum here devoted to the topic. Simply put your view of India is no less skewed than what you apparently consider ours of China to be.

A totalitarian state with controlled press will always present an information asymmetry over a democratic state with an noisy fourth estate. It just leads to a pointless debate where one side claims 'this didn't happen in China' and the other claims 'that is because it was not reported'.

In any case, you haven't done your cause any benefit with some ludicrous claims, like stating there were no protests in China in 1989-91. Most of us would consider an armed forces deployment - complete with tanks - right in the centre of the national capital, to be a major protest indeed. But then, as I understand if you type 'Tiananmen Square' into google in China, you get pretty pictures of smiling tourists in central Beijing.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Rishirishi » 14 Feb 2009 02:23

good question!

1.Legally,Judciary in China is " independly" ,but in fact ,the leaders of local judiciaries are nominated by the leaders of local CCP branch . the budget of local judciary is also controlled by the leaders of local government.
So , In fact , Local judiciary in China is controlled by the Local CCP branch and local government.

2. If the govt decides this 'slum' needs to go to accommodate the new china-disneyland without reasonable compesation,the slumdwellers usually have two recources to trouble local governments.
a. Tell the case to the superior of the local government. it is a expensive way and lasts long time.
For example, if the city government didn't pay enough compensation, people would tell the case to the provincial government and ask the provincial government to stop the city government.
If even the provinical government still refuses to take any measues, people even can send the case to center government and ask a final judge from the center government.

b. organize enough people to protest on street together and attact the attention from Beijing and the public.
It seems funny but it is indeed a cheap and effective way,because any reported mass-protest would ruin the local leader's carears.

In china, if one or two people protest on streets, he or they would be arrested at once without much attention.
but if one or two hundred people protest on streets,the leaders of local governments would be dismissed at once.
So what the local officals fear most is "mass-protests",because "mass-protest" usually ruin their carears.



This is all in theory. In practical life everything is done by contacts and corrupt officials. The local government decides to clear a slum (because it may be a sore for the eye), they will contac some builders and give them the rights, the slum dwellers may be given some compensation, but it is rarely the true value.

Protesting against the local As for the "court" it is less faiparty is not a good idea. For startes the one who is the leader or initiatior will be given a hard time. Senior party members are usually good friends of the lower level members. So foget a "fair" hearing. Mass protests will not be reported in the media and the whole thing will be supresed.

Even Sharia courts are probably more fair. At least there is a sharia law. In chinease courts the ccp is the law maker, the judge, the prosecuter and the leagal aid to the accused.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby BajKhedawal » 14 Feb 2009 04:32

Cross Posting from "A Nation on the March" thread as I think it may have relevance here also.

I have never come across anything that even lightly praises India from the Canadians or their cousins in UK, but this might be a go with the flow kind of a thing evolving here. I was looking for an appropriate translation of a local proverb (People tend to bow before a rising sun) know which side their bread is buttered, etc.....

Indian tycoons are the 'knockout punch' against China

Thu-Apr 17, 2008

Toronto / Indo-Asian News Service

Heaping praise on India's billionaire business leaders, a major Canadian newspaper said Wednesday that they could take India ahead of China in the battle for economic supremacy in the 21st century.

In the Globe and Mail, which is the most respected Canadian newspaper, columnist Marcus Gee said the genius of its business leaders will be India's " :D knockout punch in the title bout 21st century business".

It said that though China was way ahead of India in exports, infrastructure development, foreign investment and energy consumption, India might surpass it in the long run because of its "smart, ambitious, and forward-looking" business leaders.

Thanks to their genius, it said, India, which was an "economic washout" just two decades ago, now has more billionaires than Japan.

"India has 53, up from 34 the year before. Four Indian billionaires are on the Top 10 list of the world's richest people, more than any other country can claim."

The newspaper said Indians were now accumulating money faster than the Japanese did in the 1980s and the Chinese in the 1990s.

Citing how Mukesh Ambani gifted his wife Neena an Airbus worth $60 million on her 44th birthday, it said Indian business leaders were no longer shy to flaunt their wealth. Even more impressive than their wealth, it said, was their leadership of their companies.

"It's the way they are taking their companies, and in the process their country, forward. The companies they are building are not just big, bold and brawny in the Chinese model, but smart, nimble and surprisingly modern," it said.

Describing his meetings with Ratan Tata and Azim Premji, Globe and Mail columnist Marcuss Gee said: "With men like these behind them, India may land the last blow."

Despite his great achievements - making the world's cheapest car Nano, and acquiring Tetley Tea, the Anglo-Dutch steel company Corus and the British Jaguar and Land Rover brands, the columnist said Tata is not given to hyperbole.

"He doesn't expect Tata to become a global brand like Sony or Coca-Cola." But by producing the $2,500 Nano, he has set new standards in creativity, which "other companies are rushing to imitate, not just in India but around the world".

Legendary honesty {does the Chinese dictionary even have an equivalent word}

Referring to the Tatas' legendary honesty and strict business values, the newspaper quoted Ratan Tata as fearing that the group might abandon them once he was not on the scene.

"I think the day we do that we have lost everything," he was quoted as saying.

Azim Premji came in for praise for his "vision of a bold, innovative, ethical company."

Discipline and modernity are Wipro's hallmarks, the columnist said.

Premji "encourages managers and employees to share all possible information with each other and to disagree openly with higher ups, something that goes against the grain in hierarchical India.

He invests heavily in training and retraining, fosters innovation and excellence, rewards success with stock and other bonuses and keeps a tight rein on costs (managers fly economy and often stay in guest houses or company suites instead of hotels).

The result is a lean, smart, progressive company that few in China could match and that many in North America might envy, the columnist added.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby anishns » 14 Feb 2009 05:32

The following comment related to the article takes the cake!!!

Comment by Rip
2008-08-06 05:23:35

Yes, facts are pure propaganda and should be ignored and suppressed.


And some more show baazi!!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

http://i38.tinypic.com/14mewc3.jpg/IMG

http://i35.tinypic.com/2gugq5j.jpg/IMG

http://i33.tinypic.com/rsgahk.jpg/IMG

Gawd! your self esteem must be really really low to pull something like that!
I have worked with quite a few chinese and there's this particular instance which gets brought up all the time and is the source of much laughter among my colleagues, including the same white folk which these chinese are trying so hard to impress. It so happened that we had a chinese DBA, who in his infinite wisdom downloads some freely available database optimization stored procedures and tries to pass them as his own :mrgreen: But, that's not the funny part, he then goes ahead and encrypts those procedures using openly available techniques so that no one can have access to the code....

A chinese worried about "IPR"......how about that? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Anyway, eventually he gets fired and on his way out, he has this strange chinky smile and he says "you'll be calling me velly soon".
Whatever...decrypting those stored procedures was a 2 minute exercise :D and just by the way, after so much trouble we realized that those scripts never even worked....in the first place.

sanjaykumar wrote:http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=5551

China is the Potomkin village.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Nayak » 14 Feb 2009 07:30

Nayak wrote:Deleted.
Last edited by Suraj on 14 Feb 2009, edited 1 time in total.
That is just flamebait and you know it


Why the double standards ?

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 07:34

Raja Bose wrote:
Liu wrote:
2. if " the state" wants to build a expressway through a village, " the state" has to "buy" the occupied land from "the village".
Just as I refered, the leaders of local governments usually have to do what they can do to stop or avoid " mass-protest",because once "mass-protest" is knowed by medias or the center government, they usually are dismissed.


Now we all know how mass protest participants are pacified and made to calm down in China, dont we? :mrgreen:
Image


well, black&white photo.....when was it photoed? 1980s? or before I was born?

In China, mass-protest for economy dispute is treated differently from the mass-protest for political reasons.

If people protest for political reasons such as "down communist","long live tibetan independence" or "more democracy", then such protests are supressed with iron hand by Chinese government without any mercy immediately. The leaders of local government who succeed in supressing such political mass-protests usually are promoted, such as president Hu Jingtao,who succeeded in put down the riots in Tibet in 1989.


However,if the mass-protests appear just for property disputes ,the leaders of local government usually are punished or even fired by Beijing.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Suraj » 14 Feb 2009 07:49

Nayak wrote:Why the double standards ?

I don't see where else people called others 'nitwits' and 'mental midgets', but please feel free to report such posts. Your own post was reported by multiple parties.

If Liu makes rather bizarre claims, there is nothing that stops people from taking it apart with facts and your own reverse psyops. But why take it so personally ? Turning this thread into an echo chamber doesn't really help anyone. There are plenty of Chinese ex-posters who lost it and got banned when they couldn't take the rhetoric they got in response, but claiming 'he's spouting psyops! throw him out!' doesn't really work. Personally, I find his far-fetched claims amusing, not aggravating.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Raghav K » 14 Feb 2009 07:51

This is prolly why we see people snooping in forums from the Commie raj.

China prepares $6.6b to improve image in foreign media. :rotfl:

http://worldfocus.org/blog/2009/01/13/c ... edia/3589/

Which brings me to my second point: the credibility of the media in China. China could open a hundred news organizations and blanket the world with China’s point of view, but it would be greeted with just as much suspicion as it is now because China, despite all of its advancements, remains a [b]one-party state with absolute control over all domestic media.
Last edited by Raghav K on 14 Feb 2009 07:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby sudarshan » 14 Feb 2009 07:51

Liu wrote:1. Frankly speaking, CCP(Chinese communist party) today is so capitalism that it fear and hate " communism and maoism" more than India and USA.
CCP today is the most capitalism party in the world.
So, word that CCP supports India's Maoist is as ridiculous and funny as USA supports Maoist in India

2.Hardly=never? obviously not!
There are some "bomb" "bomb" in Xinjiang, but we supress it effectively .
In China, guns and bombs are controlled very strictly and it is very hard for the trouble-makers to find enough AK47 and bombs .
So on most occasions , Falun gong have to burn themselves and have no chance to shoota and bomb others with AK47+bombs.


Liu,
Your point 1. is honestly one of the most ridiculously naive things I've heard anybody say on this forum. So what you are saying is that since CCP is pro-capitalism in China, it would never dream of supporting Maoism in India. Pardon me, but either you're hoping we are all suckers here, or you genuinely have no clue as to how real politics works, (in which case you are the sucker), especially in countries like China or the USA, which are constantly on the lookout to grab land or resources at the expense of other countries.

What ideology the CCP practises in China is irrelevant. Your government found that there was a group of thugs in India calling themselves "Maoists," who purportedly follow the preachings of your great chairman Mao. How convenient! Arm them, train them, fund them, thus developing a thorn to stick in India's flesh; but make sure they don't harm your pro-capitalist China in any way- this is what your government is up to, not just in India, but also Nepal, Bhutan, Myanmar (Burma), and lately also Bangladesh. Heck, for all I know, your great government, when it adopted its revolutionary capitalist zeal, might even have deliberately pushed your Maoist thugs into India instead.

I don't know about the "effectively suppress bombs in Xinjiang" bit, but you guys certainly do an effective job of suppressing any news of this kind of activity reaching the outside world.

Sudarshan

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 08:11

Raja Bose wrote:
Liu wrote:And I do have explained that how "urban villiages" , the Chinese "slum" you call,appears , what is the difference between "urban villages" and "slum" and why is it so hard for Chinese government to rebuild them.

If you still think "urban villages"=" slum", then Brooklyn in New York should be called " slum" too.


Trust me my parents know what a slum looks like (being from India onlee, right?). So you can call it 'urban village' or 'people's village' or 'Beverly Hills' for all I care but it is what it is...a slum. And yes they have seen Brooklyn too plenty of times...trust me the slums they saw in China were no Brooklyn.


1st world look is not limited within "a select few cities " such as Shanghai,Beijing and SHenzhen.
In fact, hundreds of small&medious-sized cities and counties in coastal China are also as "1st world look" as Shanghai,Beijing and Shenzhen. Many of them are even richer and cozier than Shanghai,such as
"Zhangjiagan"(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=798124),
"Xiamen"(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=560218),
"Dongguan"(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=522195)
"Suzhou"(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=501818)
"Hangzhou"(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=787794)
Obviously , I don't think you parent have visited those above medium&small-sized cities.
when hundreds of cities with 300-400 million dwellers in look like "1st world like" ,I don't think such can be called "showcase".
.


Selective pictures never tell the story....one has to physically visit the place and be there for atleast a few days to get the right impression. I can show you '1st world' looking pics from just about every city/town I have visited in India....that hardly means they have become 1st world by any means!


Yes my parents did visit quite a few medium sized cities and some villages (do you have a new name for those too??)...they were after all in China for nearly a month. And in case you haven't got the point which a lot of postors on this thread are making.....just because your downtown Shenzhen looks shiny doesnt imply all the 100s of millions of its residents live in '1st world' style.


well, I do agree you that "your downtown Shenzhen looks shiny doesnt imply all the 100s of millions of its residents live in '1st world' style". otherwise, CHina would be a "developed country" already.


What I want to point out is that :

1. the shining infrastructure as advanced as the 1st world is not "just showcase in a few selected cities" ,but spread in almost all Chinese cities.
Futhermore, such modernizaion of infrastructure now is penentrating into Chinese rural villages. Today, even most villages roads in China have paved with concrete. that is why CHina consume 50% of global concrete every year.
Here are some photoes of ordinary village road in China today . those villages are not "rich industrialized villages" in coastal china,but ordinary villages in inland China. They are the "3rd world" in CHina. That perhaps is the "slum" you parents call.
But even in those "slum" you call, the peasants here needn't worry about food and house,however crappy their houses are,because they all have their own land.
Image
Image


On the contrary, the opposite seems to be true. As an analogy, it is more of a case of shoving the dirt under the carpet as opposed to ensuring there is no dirt. So the dirt is there, its just carefully hidden away from foreign eyes hence, I termed it as a 'showcase'. In China you can do that and nobody is the wiser because your government is not answerable to the people (ironic since it is called 'People's' Republic of China) and can pretty much do whatever it wants whenever it wants to look good and save face.

Like I said you can justify all you want and paint a glorious picture but the reality begs to differ. BTW I also have some college friends who live in China and have worked there for the past 6-7 years. Less said about their experiences the better....so all is not glorious hunky dory progress in China land as you and the other Chinese postors here would like us to believe.


1.nobody in China want to hide " the dirty" under "carpet". I do acknowledge that Chinese rural areas are far poorer than urban area.

2. But the poverty in Chinese rural area still quite different from the poverty in India :
a. Chinese peasants are away from food-shortage and non-houses,however poor they are,due to the issurance of land.
b. Most Chinese young peasants spend most their time working in cities ,instead of planting food on their own land in home-villages.
c. Most income of Chinese peasants is not from agriculture on their land,but from their non-agriculture jobs in Chinese cities.
So,if measued by "career" ,Chinese peasants can hardly be called "real peasants"

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Suraj » 14 Feb 2009 08:23

Liu: If you showed an Indian person these two pictures above, without any signs of it being China, they would think it was some Indian rural area. If you think Indian rural areas are all mud huts with no roads, you have no idea what you are talking about.

While you have your own desire to 'present a correct picture of China', you have a long way to go in learning anything about India. Speak for your own country if you like, but don't pretend you know enough about India to compare.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Raghav K » 14 Feb 2009 08:25

Folks, we all know the reality and lets ignore people who always try to get their POV blindly. Like the saying goes,

"The fool may live with the Pandit and
listen to the scriptures (Vedas, Shaastras, etc.). But you can
never escape your own inner tendencies, like the
crooked tail of the dog "

The truth "Never" goes away no matter what. Meanwhile,

Book About Peasants Causes Stir in China.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9629C8B63

Though their tautly written defense of China's 750 million peasants has become a sensation, their names have stopped appearing in the news media, and their publisher was ordered to cease printing at the peak of book's popularity this spring.

A ranking official sued them for libel in his home county court. In a country that does not protect a right to criticize those holding power, it is a case they say they are sure to lose.

Beijing has put forward new programs intended to raise rural living standards. But what many consider the biggest peasant problems, corruption and abuse of power, apparently remain taboo subjects.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 08:37

BTW, I think CHnese government's priority of investment is quite different different Indian government ,even most Indian people here.

For example:

According to my understanding, if Indian government has 100 million USD, Indian government usually tends to spend most of the fund on "more allowance" or " less tax" ,to attract more votes. At the same time,Infrastructures usually are ignored by Indian government,because infrastructure building spend too long time and can not attract votes effectively in short time

,However,if Chinese government has 100 million USD, CHinese government is surely invest most of the 100 million USD on infrastructures without any histatation. Only quite a limited fund of the 100 million USD would be distributed to prove people life quality directly.
So, in many CHinese area, you can find wolrd-class infrastructure and low-salary people at the same time. that is why some Indian people here feel that "chinese 1st world like cities" are just "showcase".

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 08:56

Rishirishi wrote:
good question!

1.Legally,Judciary in China is " independly" ,but in fact ,the leaders of local judiciaries are nominated by the leaders of local CCP branch . the budget of local judciary is also controlled by the leaders of local government.
So , In fact , Local judiciary in China is controlled by the Local CCP branch and local government.

2. If the govt decides this 'slum' needs to go to accommodate the new china-disneyland without reasonable compesation,the slumdwellers usually have two recources to trouble local governments.
a. Tell the case to the superior of the local government. it is a expensive way and lasts long time.
For example, if the city government didn't pay enough compensation, people would tell the case to the provincial government and ask the provincial government to stop the city government.
If even the provinical government still refuses to take any measues, people even can send the case to center government and ask a final judge from the center government.

b. organize enough people to protest on street together and attact the attention from Beijing and the public.
It seems funny but it is indeed a cheap and effective way,because any reported mass-protest would ruin the local leader's carears.

In china, if one or two people protest on streets, he or they would be arrested at once without much attention.
but if one or two hundred people protest on streets,the leaders of local governments would be dismissed at once.
So what the local officals fear most is "mass-protests",because "mass-protest" usually ruin their carears.



This is all in theory. In practical life everything is done by contacts and corrupt officials. The local government decides to clear a slum (because it may be a sore for the eye), they will contac some builders and give them the rights, the slum dwellers may be given some compensation, but it is rarely the true value.

Protesting against the local As for the "court" it is less faiparty is not a good idea. For startes the one who is the leader or initiatior will be given a hard time. Senior party members are usually good friends of the lower level members. So foget a "fair" hearing. Mass protests will not be reported in the media and the whole thing will be supresed.

Even Sharia courts are probably more fair. At least there is a sharia law. In chinease courts the ccp is the law maker, the judge, the prosecuter and the leagal aid to the accused.


I have to acknowledge that you do point out some real problems---- "even perfect system in theory" often become ugly.

As well as "democracy" in lots of countries and "sharia law", CHina's judciary often become "ugly" in practical life.
For example:
" compensation is lower than the true value".
" the one who is the leader or initiatior will be given a hard time."
" Senior party members are usually good friends of the lower level members"....etc.

However, two cases are here:
1. Most chinese people hate such "unfair" ;2.the top authorities,CHinese center government also wants to decrease such "unfair" as possible" as it can,just in order to keep China more stable.


As for "Mass protests will not be reported in the media and the whole thing will be supresed" ,I do disgree it.
Today, internet is so popular in China that it is impossible to "cover" "masss-protest" in CHina today.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Raghav K » 14 Feb 2009 09:01

Liu wrote:As for "Mass protests will not be reported in the media and the whole thing will be supresed" ,I do disgree it.
Today, internet is so popular in China that it is impossible to "cover" "masss-protest" in CHina today.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Internet censorship in the People's Republic of China.

Internet censorship in the People's Republic of China is conducted under a wide variety of laws and administrative regulations. In accordance with these laws, more than sixty Internet regulations have been made by the People's Republic of China (PRC) government, and censorship systems are vigorously implemented by provincial branches of state-owned ISPs, business companies, and organizations.[1][2]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_c ... c_of_China

The apparatus of the PRC's Internet repression is considered more extensive and more advanced than in any other country in the world. The regime not only blocks website content but also monitors the internet access of individuals. :eek: Amnesty International notes that China “has the largest recorded number of imprisoned journalists and cyber-dissidents in the world


On July 23, 2008, the family of Liu Shaokun was notified that he had been sentenced to one year re-education :(( through labor for “inciting a disturbance”; a teacher in Sichuan, he had taken and posted online photos of collapsed schools.
Last edited by Raghav K on 14 Feb 2009 09:08, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 09:03

Suraj wrote:Liu: If you showed an Indian person these two pictures above, without any signs of it being China, they would think it was some Indian rural area. If you think Indian rural areas are all mud huts with no roads, you have no idea what you are talking about.

that is why I come here.
I am not "hiding dirty behind carpet",but show you a real china.

While you have your own desire to 'present a correct picture of China', you have a long way to go in learning anything about India. Speak for your own country if you like, but don't pretend you know enough about India to compare.

maybe.
that is also why I come here.
I think that the exchange with you is much more reliable than what english medias and CHinese medias tell me.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 09:10

Raghav K wrote:
Liu wrote:
As for "Mass protests will not be reported in the media and the whole thing will be supresed" ,I do disgree it.
Today, internet is so popular in China that it is impossible to "cover" "masss-protest" in CHina today.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Internet censorship in the People's Republic of China.

Internet censorship in the People's Republic of China is conducted under a wide variety of laws and administrative regulations. In accordance with these laws, more than sixty Internet regulations have been made by the People's Republic of China (PRC) government, and censorship systems are vigorously implemented by provincial branches of state-owned ISPs, business companies, and organizations.[1][2]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_c ... c_of_China

The apparatus of the PRC's Internet repression is considered more extensive and more advanced than in any other country in the world. The regime not only blocks website content but also monitors the internet access of individuals. :eek: Amnesty International notes that China “has the largest recorded number of imprisoned journalists and cyber-dissidents in the world


forget "internet censorship"!
Chinese "internet censorship" is a useless white elephant!
The " internet censorship " is only available to those mainstream China media.
To millions of blogs, MSG user, QQ users, "internet censorship" is just the ears of the deaf.

For example.
1.the BR is blocked in CHina. But I can still use proxy to being exchanging ideas with you.

2.If I find a mass-protest, I can use QQ( MSN-like interent communicating software) to broadcast the news immediately and CHinese govenment can't find who does it at all.

In fact, when SARS, 3.14 tibetan riot and shoe-attack to Wen Jiaobao happened, CHinese government tries to "cover" it at first. But CHinese government give up the news block at last because nearly all chinese got to know the news by interent immediately.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby vsudhir » 14 Feb 2009 09:24

Liu,

I do notice you've tried responding to my questions in the prev page. Thx for the effort.

Still, I come off with the feeling that you missed the main point I was trying to make.

The Chinese Communist party (CCP) is legislature, judiciary and executive all rolled into one. Thus, whilst other countries have constitutions, PRC has CCP. It overrides everything else.

IOW, the CCP is above the law. Both in theory and certainly in practice.

Do you agree? Yes or no would be nice though I expect evasiveness creeping in tks to nuances.

In India the communists ruled west bengal for over 30 yrs now. Absolute majority each time, little oppn in the countryside. And yet, capital and free enterprise have fled that once forward state. Suffice to say that any attempt at importing souperior land-distribution, industrial efficiency practices in the Indian context don't work as advertised in xinhua.

An no, the PRC version of capitalism isn't classical capitalism. It is the less respected version, namely crony capitalism since bank loans from state owned banks go to favored cronies on a preferential basis. Not much different from the bush yrs in america, seems like.

That said, there's much to admire and learn from china's successes. But not at the cost of making any entity above the law. India can do with such 'souperiority', I believe.

/Have a nice day.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 09:30

Raghav K wrote:This is prolly why we see people snooping in forums from the Commie raj.

China prepares $6.6b to improve image in foreign media. :rotfl:

http://worldfocus.org/blog/2009/01/13/c ... edia/3589/

Which brings me to my second point: the credibility of the media in China. China could open a hundred news organizations and blanket the world with China’s point of view, but it would be greeted with just as much suspicion as it is now because China, despite all of its advancements, remains a [b]one-party state with absolute control over all domestic media.


CCP bureaucrat alwasy do such useless and sick deeds.

They always think that everything will be better as long as money is poured.

However, with those incapable and suck CCP bureaucrat's CCAV-style crappy publicity, "more money" just means " much sicker".

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 10:04

vsudhir wrote:Liu,

I do notice you've tried responding to my questions in the prev page. Thx for the effort.

Still, I come off with the feeling that you missed the main point I was trying to make.

The Chinese Communist party (CCP) is legislature, judiciary and executive all rolled into one. Thus, whilst other countries have constitutions, PRC has CCP. It overrides everything else.

IOW, the CCP is above the law. Both in theory and certainly in practice.

Do you agree? Yes or no would be nice though I expect evasiveness creeping in tks to nuances.

In India the communists ruled west bengal for over 30 yrs now. Absolute majority each time, little oppn in the countryside. And yet, capital and free enterprise have fled that once forward state. Suffice to say that any attempt at importing souperior land-distribution, industrial efficiency practices in the Indian context don't work as advertised in xinhua.

An no, the PRC version of capitalism isn't classical capitalism. It is the less respected version, namely crony capitalism since bank loans from state owned banks go to favored cronies on a preferential basis. Not much different from the bush yrs in america, seems like.

That said, there's much to admire and learn from china's successes. But not at the cost of making any entity above the law. India can do with such 'souperiority', I believe.

/Have a nice day.


well,
In china, CCP indeed is above law. To CCP, constitution is just a "rubber stamp".

However, it doesn't means that CCP is "almighty GOD" and can do whatever it wants in CHina. It has to take measures to "lessen angers among people" and "satisfy people's demand" ,just as democracy,because CCP can not forbid Chinese people "vote with feet",such as emigrant,protests,fund-outflow....and even riots.
For example:

when SARs happened, CCP has to fire the mayor of Beijing and the health minister .
After "Melamine mile" is revealed, the minster of health dempartment is fired again and some officials are even setenced to death

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby putnanja » 14 Feb 2009 10:07

Liu wrote:that is why I come here.
I am not "hiding dirty behind carpet",but show you a real china.

maybe.
that is also why I come here.
I think that the exchange with you is much more reliable than what english medias and CHinese medias tell me.


er, what is the guarantee that you are not a chinese drone employed by the CCP to improve china's image? There were news of that floating around a while back. :lol:

You see, that is the problem with a closed society. To the outsiders, it is difficult to judge whether people are really what they claim to be. No wonder that most people here including me have a hard time believing everything a chinese posts on here.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby anishns » 14 Feb 2009 10:41

Liu:

Not trying to flame bait....but,

Liu wrote:1.nobody in China want to hide "the dirt" under "carpet"


Then what is this? (I don't see no paved concrete roads or air conditioners here and the guy looks as impoverished any poor "free" Indian....isn't that shameful considering your factories churn out millions or billions of clothing material for the rest of the world? please enlighten us!)

Image

or this?

Image



Is this some new innovative chinese "Feng Shui" thing that the rest of this planet is not aware of?


Liu wrote:However,if Chinese government has 100 million USD, CHinese government is surely invest most of the 100 million USD on infrastructures without any histatation.


It is great that your party is spending so much money on building infrastructure....but, that is not the point! The point we are trying to make is why the "cover up" i.e. "hiding dirt under the carpet."

I hope you understand....this is nothing personal!

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby sanjaykumar » 14 Feb 2009 10:54

It is odd that a lot of the poor in China's cities are actually overweight.


Liu, I don't think anyone here doubts that China has made tremendous progress in pulling hundreds of millions out of poverty or that it has impressive space capabilities etc. But presenting glossy pictures of a shining China is best suited to a Pakistani or other third world audience. India has third world problems and poverty but it also has features of first world freedom of thought, speech, dissent and conscience as well as areas of technology where it is at par or ahead of China.

There are Maoists guerrillas in India because dissent is tolerated. There are no Maoist guerrillas in China because dissent is not tolerated. I don't know if you can follow that.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 10:54

RaviBg wrote:
Liu wrote:that is why I come here.
I am not "hiding dirty behind carpet",but show you a real china.

maybe.
that is also why I come here.
I think that the exchange with you is much more reliable than what english medias and CHinese medias tell me.


er, what is the guarantee that you are not a chinese drone employed by the CCP to improve china's image? There were news of that floating around a while back. :lol:

You see, that is the problem with a closed society. To the outsiders, it is difficult to judge whether people are really what they claim to be. No wonder that most people here including me have a hard time believing everything a chinese posts on here.


Dozens of years ago, when CHinese visited foreigner countries, foreigners always mislooked on chinese as Japanese or Korean and asked chinese :" hellow, Japanese!" or "hellow, Korean!",because at that time ,ordinary chinese could hardly afford travell abroad and foreigners could hardly see CHinese travellors.

Today, Chinese travellors are full of the world, and foreigners are used to seeing chinese travelling and doing business on their land. such a embarrassing "hellow" decreases much.


However, Today when nearly 300 million Chinese often surf on internent ,you still raise
a question that "what is the guarantee that you are not a chinese drone employed by the CCP to improve china's image?".

Don't you think such a question is very very silly?
Last edited by Liu on 14 Feb 2009 12:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 11:20

sanjaykumar wrote:It is odd that a lot of the poor in China's cities are actually overweight.


Liu, I don't think anyone here doubts that China has made tremendous progress in pulling hundreds of millions out of poverty or that it has impressive space capabilities etc. But presenting glossy pictures of a shining China is best suited to a Pakistani or other third world audience. India has third world problems and poverty but it also has features of first world freedom of thought, speech, dissent and conscience as well as areas of technology where it is at par or ahead of China.

well, I do agree that "freedom" or "democrary" in theory is perfect, just as "communism" is also perfect in theory.

However, many "perfect system in theory becomes "ugly" in practical life, doesn't it?
well, "perfect communism" eventually become "dictatorship" like N.korea while "perfect democray" in non-western world is also not so perfect as it in theory.

Anyhow, we live in a practical world,instead of a theory.

There are Maoists guerrillas in India because dissent is tolerated. There are no Maoist guerrillas in China because dissent is not tolerated. I don't know if you can follow that.


I do disgree .
In fact, Before mao took power in 1949, the ruler of CHina at that time, Chiang Kai-shek, didn't tolerate dissents at all. But Mao still succeeded in leading guerrillas and drove Chiang Kai-shek to Taiwan.

Here as we see, "tolerance" is not the right answer at all. The real reason why Maoists guerrillas prevail is the unfairness of land distribution system.

As long as lots of peasants have no land and have no chance to find a job in non-agriculture section, Maoism is always attractive to peasants without any land and maoism guerrillas alwalys have proper soil and room to survive or even grow.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby bart » 14 Feb 2009 11:45

Liu Saar,

Kindly drive over in your Chery QQ (cheap knockoffs of which are sold in India under the Chevy brand), to the nukkad and check the fine accomplishments of your country in helping Antigua 'plogress' by building them a cricket stadium. The Indian built stadium in Guyana is by comparison a complete disaster.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby anishns » 14 Feb 2009 11:57

Liu wrote:Don't you think such a question is very very silly?


Yes it is very very silly :)
Especially when you go to some chinese restaurants in china town!
And the chinese waiter who I guess has experienced first hand the deeds of your glorious party before he finally managed to escape....
That waiter is downright rude......they just don't smile :roll:

I don't know if any others have experienced that....

But, would you please answer the question I posted earlier?

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby anishns » 14 Feb 2009 12:05

Bart saar, one thing the chinese are good at is I guess show off diplomacy. Now, that they have pretty much screwed up Africa with their petty agendas!
Its Latin America they are focussing on!

Costa Rica was always aligned to Taiwan and it was one of the few countries which recognised them (Taiwan) as a country. Well guess what....the chinese came in, started flooding the market with their cheap junk all over undercutting all and sundry. Infact their cars are available at half the cost compared to even Korean cars......only problem it goes kaput in 2 years.....if lucky!

They have promised to build a soccer stadium at the cost of $75 million and taken up road projects all across Costa Rica and purchased a big chunk of the government debt as bonds. Guess what Costa Rica dropped any recognition towards Taiwan!

Now the Costa Rican's are favoring signing a FTA with China over the US. Who is lesser of the 2 evils.....god only knows! :)



bart wrote:Liu Saar,

Kindly drive over in your Chery QQ (cheap knockoffs of which are sold in India under the Chevy brand), to the nukkad and check the fine accomplishments of your country in helping Antigua 'plogress' by building them a cricket stadium. The Indian built stadium in Guyana is by comparison a complete disaster.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 12:30

anishns wrote:Liu:

Not trying to flame bait....but,

Liu wrote:1.nobody in China want to hide "the dirt" under "carpet"


Then what is this? (I don't see no paved concrete roads or air conditioners here and the guy looks as impoverished any poor "free" Indian....isn't that shameful considering your factories churn out millions or billions of clothing material for the rest of the world? please enlighten us!)

Image

or this?

Image
Is this some new innovative chinese "Feng Shui" thing that the rest of this planet is not aware of?

1. Maybe it is "Feng shui" as you pointed,
But IMHO,I indeed suspect that those crappy avenue surrounded by walls in fact are the avenue to be demonished .
In chinese city,construction site usually are sorrounded by such walls.
If all dwellers in the avenue to be demoished have not move out and the walls have erected already,then appear can the above two pictures.
Image
Image
Image

2. The house behind the wall in second picture are some shops for printing,bike-sale
The signal of the crappy house in the first picture is " For bike repair"
It is not where the old man lives,but where he works.
Obviously, the old man should be a peasant worker . because he is away from his home and land ,he has the crappy house to be demonished as temporary accommodation and bike-reparing shop.


3. But I am afaid that the old man's will be driven out by the "city inspector(城管)soon,since his sale is obviously not licensed.
"city inspectors"' job is to drive unlicensed vendors and demonish illegal buildings. But they are disreputable for "abusing their power" in China. Most Chinese people dislike them. some CHinese even declare that "city inspectors" = "rogues"
Chinese people often joke that "city inspectors" are so "fierce" that if they were to join the PLA ,PLA would defeat USA at once.
Here are some photoes showing how "city inspectors" abuse their power.
Image
Image

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 13:29

anishns wrote:
Liu wrote:Don't you think such a question is very very silly?


Yes it is very very silly :)
Especially when you go to some chinese restaurants in china town!
And the chinese waiter who I guess has experienced first hand the deeds of your glorious party before he finally managed to escape....
That waiter is downright rude......they just don't smile :roll:

I don't know if any others have experienced that....

But, would you please answer the question I posted earlier?


well,most of those chinese emmigrated to western countries for economical reasons,instead of polictical reasons.

Always people in poor developing countries want to emmigrate to the rich developed countries.

And china indeed is a developing country and poorer than the developed countries.

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Liu » 14 Feb 2009 13:47

ChandraS wrote:
Liu wrote:But sometimes, the govenment would refuse the price the owners offered.when the amount of relocating-compesation is not agreed ,such funny stalemates often appear as showed in the picture:
Image


Liu,

In continuing with vsudhir's questions, does the 'superior' property distribution system have any facility for easement rights.
The picture above shows the opposite. Read up on Easement. Any property law not having easement rights is not worth the paper it is written on.

By your own admission, the relocated people are about an hour's commute away. In other words, the Chinese govt has deprived those people of nearly two hours of their daily life. Even if they get additional compensation in lieu of the new apts, is it sufficient to own or even rent a place in or nearby the new development? I think not, as Singha says - It is for the urban elites only not the unwashed poor. Lastly, land acquistion and relocation of existing people is not a purely economic affair. There are sociological considerations that have to be kept in mind for any acquisition and relocation scheme to be successful. Given that the people cannot sue for proper relief, the Chinese model, in your own words, fails to live up to your lofty pronouncements.

I am afraid that I can give a accurate answer,because I am not a lawer and have no the exact meaning of "easement".

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby Mahendra » 14 Feb 2009 14:11

Liu wrote:
Liu wrote:
In China, mass-protest for economy dispute is treated differently from the mass-protest for political reasons.

However,if the mass-protests appear just for property disputes ,the leaders of local government usually are punished or even fired by Beijing.


You mean fired using made in China Kalashnikovs?
Political unrest and uprisings usually have a money angle to them, what is your opinion about theChinese efficiency in dealing with protests? In your great country are you allowed to have an opinion? is so we would like to hear

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Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby zengerl » 14 Feb 2009 19:12

1. China is not an authorian country. She has her democracy, it is just different from others'. Think about this: UK has a queen, yet UK is still democracy.
2. Democracy is a beautiful house you have, it does not make money!
3. If India's system work, how to explain this: in 1949, India's GDP per captia was almost two times of China's (India was spared the brutal WWW II), yet now, India's GDP per captia is a little more than 1/4 (one fourth ) of China's? If democray were a magic, then there must be something terribly wrong with Indian people.

zengerl
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Joined: 14 Feb 2009 19:04

Re: PRC Economy News and Discussions-II

Postby zengerl » 14 Feb 2009 19:24

There are more and more protests in China. But isn't that how the democracy supposed to work? I don't see how China is going to face Riots. In China today, even the poorest migrant workers can get $200.00 a month ($2400.00 a year per person); and if they lose their job, they fall back to their farms and make about $500.00 a year per person (that is $1500.00 a year per family!), no tax, and the state government will subidize them with about $20.00 (tweny, not much) a year. $1500.00 a year is very little, but it keeps a 3-person family fed and warm.

Different from other systems, in China, a farmer's land is a farmer's land, you cannot sell it (only the sate goverment can buy it for good cause and good money). The system especially forbids selling your land because nobody want to see big land owner.
In my grandparent's villiage, if a kid is born, a piece of land is alloted to the kid; if a senior is dead or someone settles down in a city, his land is taken back. The land is strictly evenly distributed among villagers.


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