Indian Education System

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Feb 2009 13:45

Pah.. You Kanpur types must have been so deprived. At Eye Eye Tee Madras , the hot types were the Bangalore girls, the favorites being Mount Carmel College, Bangalore. For local wimmin, Ethiraj college and Stella Marris (other than the coy half sari clad /dhavani clad behenji types) . Every jihadi's hearts went up, testosterone levels shot up, some of those types even managed to get hair cuts, shave, wear clean clothes and even make a semblance of trying to dress up and be "presentable" . It was a giant "scoping" out fair like what happens in the festivals the Bhils and others have for such things.

In fact, the wimmin too were trying to score with the best peacocks around. I know a couple of folks who are married to people they met at such Mardi Gras.

Holding hands. Come on.

I know one couple who shacked up for an entire week AFTER the festival in the hostel room. Grape vine and everything else be damned. Of course the scene in a Massa Ivy League univ is a target rich environment with massive pickings to be had and a whole variety of choices. Dont even get e started on it. This is definitely a case where Massa beats every place in India hands down (oops pants down).

Most B.Tech jihadis, any ways just plain ignored the nerdy wimmin who managed to get in , even at the best of times, in those high testosterone driven days, they simply disappeared from even subconsciousness !.

But then we had a kill joy / "frust" kind of Director who came in with all the culture vulture rubbish, and anyway since IITM had the very "western" English only culture (Hindi was unheard of in my days. Every one spoke the Queen's language (even if you were a "I go to koaleg to gain some noalej fro Kerala"), you quickly acclimatized) and spoke and thought in it as well and swore in Madras Tamil of course. From what I hear, said diro was the "Indian Culture" vulture, felt that "Mardi Gras" was too "western" and "decadent" (send that guy to Ram Sene) and he changed the hallowed Mardi Gras as it had existed for over 26 generations into some wimpy "Sarang" or something.

Only English films in the Open Air Theater (OAT) onree Saar. No other bollywood /Kollywood/Tollywood films. What is the lingua franca at IIT-M these days ?. I hope it remains English. I dont know about other IITs and what used to be spoken there. Hearing Hindi spoken at IITM would just mean how much things have changed there. , just like Bangalore has. In my days, you spoke English, Tamil and kannada in Bangalore. Few if any knew Hindi. Now I hear it being spoken in the streets. I couldnt speak a sentence in Hindi after my B.Tech. I picked up my spoken Hindi only much later.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 02 Feb 2009 14:14

vina wrote: Only English films in the Open Air Theater (OAT) onree Saar. No other bollywood /Kollywood/Tollywood films.

When I was around, there used to be a monthly once Tam movie (on Fridays) to complement the Saturday one. Once a blue moon Hindi movie. But most weekends, it was still Anglais. The movie list still gets updated on the main announcements page. And luckily, the regular one is still Saturday night.

What is the lingua franca at IIT-M these days ?.

A mixture of Anglais, Tam, Gult and Hindi. Hindi is common these days. Used to be an irritating aspect with the faux/pseud Hindi spoken by the billis. Despite being in that envt, I never had the enthu to learn anything more than a few non-standard gaalis in all languages. Using the right gaali in the right vernacular was/is necessary to shock/awe/shut up the pest. The population has skewed considerably with the intake increase. And many of them learn some elementary Tam just to pass along well with the policemen, auto-waalahs, occasional passerby on the road, mess workers etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Feb 2009 14:22

every college attracts predominatly students from its own zone. so no wonder not that many narth yindians in eye eye tee yem, esp in those days of perceived hostility to nartherners. kanpur had a strong population of banias (guptas, aggarwals), biharis and bengalis.

I think the richer and smarter types preferred the glamour and easy access to
entertainment in dilli, mumbai and chennai. so only the more sdre types or those
who had burnt all bridges with the world and wanted to study heavily came there.

Nirantar · Post by **Nirantar** » 02 Feb 2009 14:35

On sidelines, we often piss at the unruly, ill at wheels people in traffic.
If I am made incharge of India School System, the first thing I would do the course structure at class level V, VIII and finally Xth to be added with adequate chapters in "Civic, Moral and Common Sense". Three essential topics must be addressed:-
1. Traffic part that should cover driving sense, traffic perception and reaction in heavy rush, patience while driving and ridiculing(made fun of) non-conformers in most fascinating way.
2. Male Sexual aggression(read rape) - Enough light on the legal consequences as well as female agony.
3. Anger and stress management

I think right at the tender age if these things are taught, discussed and fed properly the situation will change drastically.

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Feb 2009 15:29

Gosh!. Checked out the IIT-M pages in Wiki and I should say the changes are huge!. I dont think I would know the place. No more messes in hostels and giant food courts instead!. 7 storey hostels, no longer the 3 storey hostels of yore . Some unrecognizable ones like Sharavati, Tamaraparani, Pampa , Sindhu, Mahanadhi, . Some random food joints called "Basera", "Tifanys" and a hold your breath "Cafe Coffee day!" . Oh my god, those days, we used to get Kapi from the giant Banyan tree near the Dean of Student's office from a push cart and fall like flies to mr John Diss!. Gurunath "pattisiere" oops. those guys have gotten real hoity toity!. No mention of the venerable Quark and no Nair Tea Stall at Tarams (I know it is called Guru Cafe or something now).

Something about wimmins hostel being called "Sharavati" . My gosh, Sarayu was the wimmin's hostel and now there was something about Saraya too becoming wimmin's again. 2 hostels for wimmin, are there that many there now ?.

And now three banks, including SBI, Canara and ICICI!. My gosh. what kind of ejjkashun are these young kids getting these days. How the hell can you experience real Yindia, unless you cycled down to the SBI branch opposite the KV and filled out forms in triplicate? .

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Feb 2009 15:36

It has changed a lot, and a tidel park style IT park is coming up too

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Feb 2009 15:42

which real india ? these kids dont ejatly come from impoverished backgrounds most of them atleast. most would show up for 1st year with a laptop, sound system, mp3 player and a cellphone as basic starting point. no more fitting speakers into earthen kalash's to make crude speakers or figuring how to make tubelights work without the choke to save $$ or worst of all walking 1km to a STD booth to make a call once in two weeks.

you are the one who's the dinosaur. make a orkut page asap and get with the program Uncle

btw iit mumbai architecture went from a grey soviet style campus into a hafeez contractor designed student residence

poor and starving yindu is no longer "chic"

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Feb 2009 16:23

Singha wrote:which real india ? these kids dont ejatly come from impoverished backgrounds most of them atleast. most would show up for 1st year with a laptop, sound system, mp3 player and a cellphone as basic starting point. no more fitting speakers into earthen kalash's to make crude speakers or figuring how to make tubelights work without the choke to save $$ or worst of all walking 1km to a STD booth to make a call once in two weeks.

you are the one who's the dinosaur. make a orkut page asap and get with the program Uncle

Yeah.. That is true. The only earthly possession I had beyond a couple of books , clothes and personal stuff like toothbrush , was a Hercules/ Hero (dont remember which) , big black bi cycle, which I bought second hand a few days after I started there from a senior who had graduated recently for around Rs 235 onree.

.

Laptop and MP3 players aye ?. Poor moi saw my first Komputer the size a of giant room and processing power like a pea brained dinosaur with people punching cards to program it onree in the "central facility".

btw iit mumbai architecture went from a grey soviet style campus into a hafeez contractor designed student residence poor and starving yindu is no longer "chic"

Yup. All so different onree. The good old "Cricket Ground" is now the "Chemplat" cricket ground with a TFTA "stadium" and everything. We kids used to sit in the shade of the trees in the sidelines onree Saar.

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 02 Feb 2009 16:34

Continuing the PhD talk (not trying to convert this into a MS/PhD debate)

So I work in the Research arm of a major automobile MNC in Bangalore. Our group is about 10, 7 PhDs and 3 MS. My only gripe being a lowly MS compared to PhDs is that PhDs get a lot of time on their hands to learn the tools required to complete a job. When they face a problem, they know what tools to apply or have strong enough fundamentals that they can extend their "current knowledge" into solving the problem.

Its just that these guys model the problem correctly and then I have the "zen moment", where everything starts falling in place for me to find a solution for the proposed model. I have found it so hard to model the problem initially.

Its probably precisely this frustration that I "still am considering" doing a PhD at some point.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Feb 2009 16:36

I was shocked to see the state of my high school recently - don bosco ghy. my father had studied there too. its all high tech buildings, security guards from pvt agency (good old "Hardev Gorh" bhai pensioned off), auditoriums, labs, branding and career orientation now.

the worst "sacrilege" has been they are graduating out of nursery..class10 to
have clas11 and 12 with "co-ed" now

a community of 2000+ alums in orkut is up in arms about this co-ed thing demanding and wailing that this violation of our credo be reversed.

our credo was - DBG doesnt give a s*** about girls (so long as other boys are nearby to mewl and tease, else we have no issue)

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 03 Feb 2009 03:16

Singha ji...when did Don Bosco become co-ed???

Myself, yam onlee from DPS RKP (of the sex video scandal fame)

so we are much ahead of times in terms of decadence.

You forgot to include LSR (Lady Sriram College) in your list of gilt edged invites to IIT fest....man during the LSR cul fest would always seen whole loads of Eye Eye Tea Dilli janta outside gates panting and gasping. Once almost got shaheedized there when my idiot friend walked all over a rangoli those LSR babes had painstakingly made in the main reception area....next thing he knew he had the principal madam's walking stick pointing at his throat (no kidding!) and moi hiding behind a notice board like a true ghazi. He then spent next 3 hours on rangoli fatigues.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 03 Feb 2009 03:26

Somebody mentioned here that people treat PhD as just another degree. In the end it is just another degree....it is not a substitute for experience. True, it requires different kind of mental approach and effort as compared to 'exam-based' degrees but it does not imply that one will come out smarter than the rest if he has a PhD. If you do it right, you experience the ability to persist thru highs and lows, 'think for yourself indepeddently' and innovate but these are abilities you have to have in some measure if you want to do a PhD anyways. You dont gain that ability as a consequence of your PhD degree if you did not have it before! Hence, the attitude one usually sees from newly minted Pee Yech Dees (except me ofcourse!

) is similar to the silly attitude one sees a lot from MBA types with little work ex....who think they can solve anything they lay their eyes on and somehow their degree is a substitute for hands-on experience.

And then the issue for people jumping into Pee Yech Dee commitment without thinking it thru....thats why in Massa you have a drop out rate of about 50% in PhD programmes overall.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 06 Feb 2009 03:33

When will Lord Yama pay a visit to this senile oiseaule?

The HRD Ministry on Thursday hinted that there is still scope for faculty quota in institutions of excellence, including IITs, even as DoPT has sought exemption of such institutes from having reservation in teaching posts. "I think little patience is required. I understand there is scope and possibility for this. The Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribes (Reservation in Posts and Services) Bill 2008 has been passed by one House only," HRD Minister Arjun Singh told reporters.

The Bill, moved by Department of Personnel and Training and passed by Rajya Sabha, seeks to provide exemption from reservation for SCs and STs in the appointment of faculty in the institutions of national importance. Singh's views assumes significance as the contentious issue of quota has been stoutly opposed by IIT faculty members. The ministry had last year suggested the IITs to have quota in faculty. The IIT Directors took up the issue with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

The DoPT Bill says that there shall be no reservation where appointments are made to posts higher than the lowest grade of group 'A' posts in institutions of national importance. The Bill has specified 47 institutions which may get exemption from implementation of reservation in faculty.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 06 Feb 2009 06:26

reservations for student entry i fully support.
but lowering passing out criteria for students and this nonsense with reservations for teaching i dont. not just iits but everywhere. this is pure idocy. killing the hen that lays the golden egg.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 06 Feb 2009 06:35

How Arjun Singh’s HRD trashed PM’s education reform roadmap

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Feb 2009 21:32

He did that to serve and agenda to ensure more DIE are produced... And he had Rajamta's assent. The idea is to produce useful idiots who wont outshine the DIEnasty ever.

Vivek Wadhwa on the Engineering Gap in Business Week. Has relevance to India though its US oriented.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2009 21:53

I was once in a group meeting with kireeti kompella the mpls guru and a fellow at juniper. he is a btech ee & mtech cse from iit-kanpur & phd from USC in computational complexity. someone asked him whether a phd was essential to get anywhere technically. his reply was something like "phd trains your mind to think in sustained and constructive ways". a person of high raw intelligence & who can think well can pick up and do well in many different areas like he has done.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 14 Feb 2009 01:13

Singha,

He is exactly right. Somewhere on one of the B-R threads (probably this one), I said the same thing. Ph.D is by itself, in the end just a degree. However, unlike other degrees, if you do it right you learn how to think for yourself and how to be creative. Most abduls are not used to thinking totally on their own esp. in the Indian education system where emphasis is on book learning and exam passing. So doing a Ph.D is a good way of learning how to research, how to learn, how to think, be creative, persevere (very important!) and in the end innovate. Solving problems from books and taking exams will never teach one that. For people who already possess the above qualities, they are already ahead of people who just have a PhD degree for the heck of it.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 14 Feb 2009 01:15

Any idea which BTech batch is Dr.Kompella from?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Feb 2009 01:20

Would be useful if we can come up with a "Think like a PhD" list. I think the biggest is to let the mind be free at same time be focussed.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 14 Feb 2009 06:20

How to think like a Ph.d? Well...what is the standard?

Stan_avargale please do the honors on the standard .......

(rest of the post deleted).

Added later: Alright, Stan's offline, hence deleting the post.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Feb 2009 09:09

Raja, I believe he completed his phd in 1992, so you can back calculate from there to arrive in approx zone. could be 80-82 range.
even his brother was a distinguished engg in Timetra the very successful acquisition by alcatel.
he gave a very long mpls tech talk....pretty much all those not working in mpls got lost
after 5 slides

quite a approachable person though, unlike some other fellows/distinguished engg types I have seen who have a policy of hanging out only with product managers, VPs and engg directors and some really serious anger management issues.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 15 Feb 2009 05:48

SriKumar wrote: Stan's offline.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 15 Feb 2009 06:06

Singha wrote: he gave a very long mpls tech talk....pretty much all those not working in mpls got lost
after 5 slides quite a approachable person though, unlike some other fellows/distinguished engg types I have seen who have a policy of hanging out only with product managers, VPs and engg directors and some really serious anger management issues.

Tell me about it...one distinguished engg. once interviewed me....several times I thought he was going to have a go at me with fists and feet

No worries about losing clue after 5 slides. In massa univ. I always made the habit of attending the resident Fields medalist's weekly talk. Initially I lost clue after 1 line (no TFTA ppt, everything is SDRE pathshala ishtyle blackboard-based talk). After a few months I could figure out until the 1st half of the blackboard till last year when I could follow about half of his entire talk.

The most value I got out of those talks was not the material being presented since as you can see I had and still have no clue about the entire thing. The value I got out of it was observing how such a great man speaks, how does he explain, how does he jump from one conclusion to the other (his thought process) and most important what are the issues which frustrate him and how he overcomes them. This man was not an arrogant type and would always answer a question no matter how silly, with the same patience and gravity as if it was a question of utmost importance...no condescending behavior, no rolling of eyes or impatience. Truly a great man and a great teacher!

The funny thing about how I started attending his talks was the fact that just after I was admitted to the dept., before the first talk he personally asked me to attend (I almost did downhill skiing at that point!)....later I learnt that one of the admissions committee profs had played a prank by telling him (the fields medalist) that I was a great prospect in abstract algebra (esp. simple groups)...when in reality at that time I had never taken an abstract algebra course in my life (having come from statistics) and had no idea what a group was and moreover, that simple groups are not that simple!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Feb 2009 06:08

RB, who is the FMwala ?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 15 Feb 2009 07:22

An IIT in Medak
http://www.flonnet.com/stories/20090227260411800.htm
Medak's thriving industry
http://www.flonnet.com/stories/20090227260411600.htm

IN recent years, Andhra Pradesh’s Medak district has been witnessing a spurt in industrial activity. Though it may take time for these industrial projects to yield results, their completion is sure to change the face of the district by creating large employment potential.

Dont know if this should go here. Given the difference between colloq Tam and proper literary Tam, I guess there is a need for transcribing between the two. Here is a pdf to aid in such matters

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/insts/southa ... /Tamil.pdf

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 15 Feb 2009 07:35

ramana wrote:Would be useful if we can come up with a "Think like a PhD" list.

Basics: When people stop working under the guidance of somebody and start working with somebody, a "true" PhD mindset has started to flower!

When someone wallows in reading too often, he/she cant write something. When one keeps writing without reading, he/she cant write a book/paper worth reading.

To make a difference in writing, people need good insights. Good insights have three properties: 1) They are novel and radical, 2) They are simple, yet deep, and 3) They are easy to build on.

And for good insights, George Polya in "How to Solve it" says: "The first rule of discovery is to have brains and good luck. The second rule of discovery is to sit tight and wait till you get a bright idea. The first rule of style is to have something to say. The second rule of style is to control yourself when, by chance, you have two things to say; say first one, then the other, not both at the same time. The first rule of teaching is to know what you are supposed to teach. The second rule of teaching is to know a little more than what you are supposed to teach. "

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 15 Feb 2009 08:14

ramana wrote:
Would be useful if we can come up with a "Think like a PhD" list.

Here's my 2 cents.

First the wording on the question itself: I think the question ‘how to think like a Ph.D’ begs the question: how does a Ph.d think? And also, is that the right standard? To me, the question feels more natural when re-worded to something like ‘How to think in-depth and in unusual ways’. I don’t know if that was the intent of the question, but, by using the word Ph.d, it demands that the standard one applies would be the standard of the (top) Ph.d-degree granting universities of the world- which makes it too subjective IMHO.

The university standard, one might say, is getting ‘n’ number of publications in peer-reviewed journals, and also how many people cite the paper, but the ultimate standard is ‘how has this work affected the course of research in this area’. If I had to condense the essence of a Ph.d-type work, in general terms as applied to a broad range of disciplines, I see it as:
i) the ability to understand nature e.g. neutrons, weather, DNA, gravity, trees, snails, planes, petroleum and anything else like that;
ii) the ability to understand non-natural (man-made) systems e.g. economy, finance etc.
iii) the ability to spot new patterns within these systems
iv) the ability to extend these patterns to learn new lessons
(I use the word ‘pattern’ in its most general sense, and also in the technical sense i.e. models, mathematical models, analogies ).

Items 1 & 2 above are more like the scope and goals of Ph.d work, items (iii) and (iv) speak to the thinking process of discovery. This actually brings us to the question as to whether thinking can be taught. I believe that atleast approaches/framework to thinking can be taught (anyone read Ed Bono’s book: Teaching Thinking?). One way of arriving at new insights and discoveries is by looking for patterns, recognizing patters that other might have missed, coming up with explanations and testing them. Hence items (iii) and (iv).

The above is somewhat informal and IMO, might enable someone to ‘think like Ph.d’. When you apply the above formally into a course of study, you have know the technical aspects of the subject, i.e. the fundamental subject matter, before the approach can be effectively applied to increase the frontiers of knowledge. Also, it does not say much about the depth to which one can go. That becomes a bit subjective, but think of this, a Ph.d graduate might do a body of work and get her/his degree; but research in that area will continue to be done by tens/hundreds of researchers for years to come. The depth keeps getting deeper, and one has to stop somewhere. As long as one learns the tools/methods to analyze the frame-work of a problem and relate them to the fundamentals, that, IHMO, forms the foundation of ‘thinking like a Ph.d’.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 15 Feb 2009 10:36

Rahul M wrote:RB, who is the FMwala ?

one half of the team which came up with the Feit-Thompson theorem.

KarthikSan · Post by **KarthikSan** » 15 Feb 2009 11:39

FWIW, a PhD at the least trains one to set up intelligent experiments. You gain a lot of classroom and practical knowledge up to the MS level. But applying this knowledge to solve problems (we are not talking fundamental scientific discovery but even applied science or basic R&D) requires a lot of thought and experience. A PhD is the only way average mortals like me could get trained in those aspects. Just watching how someone approaches a problem will definitely make the utility of a PhD clear.

We had a lot of discussion about how desis in general perceive a PhD in one of the other threads. Some people know what they want to do very early, some take the time to know what they want and there are others who do a PhD because it is the only chance of getting funded for grad school these days or they did not find a job after MS and so on. I see a new phenomenon recently. Most of the IITians mindlessly follow a set path towards grad school. They compare their GPAs/academic achievements with their senior class and apply to the same schools/research groups as their seniors with similar acads because that is one way of assured admit+funding.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 15 Feb 2009 12:05

^^^ This comparing GPAs thing is an indication how in India we think that exams are end-all be-all...right from JEE/AIIMs type entrance exams till graduation. I always maintain that GPA never tells the true story about one's competence. It just tells us that the person is a good exam taker. Unfortunately for people who think like this, they realize that doing a PhD is a very different cup of tea. In an exam usually you know there is a solution....you just have to find it. In your PhD research there may not be any solution in the end since you are working on something nobody has done/been successful at before....so not only do you have to try hard enough to find it but also gain the maturity in the process to know if and when it is futile!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Feb 2009 12:32

dont the iit-UG's sort themselves into a list based on GPA before deciding what schools to apply to,
because it is perceived two people from same iit is seldom accepted by same dept and the person
with greater gpa is preferred.

only the alpha-dog 10 gpa has the choice of entire field. for the rest is a narrowing set of choices
among the top schools.

also I perceived that interest in a particular field was not a huge criteria because most of the
big US univs had enough large depts to cater to every interest , trick was getting the
"applic slot" from the bigger gpa's in the batch.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 15 Feb 2009 13:15

^^May or may not be true...I personally know 2 IITians from same batch, same stream, same campus getting admitted to same dept., same univ. in massa. Might vary from univ. to univ. Once they come to massa, the whole GPA rationale falls apart....they quickly learn (if they are into Pee Yech Dee) that GPA is not a good estimator of success

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Feb 2009 15:20

must have been a breakdown of The Covenant or one went rogue and applied "secretly" or maybe both had
same GPA. I heard multiple 10 ptrs from iit-chennai cse did get into MiT in 1996.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Feb 2009 16:47

I have been told by sources in past that NPS bangalore gives preference to
(a) family with gross income > 20L
(b) mother should preferably not be working

now I heard (c) it doesnt prefer kids from business families

does anyone know for sure?

they have opened a new campus on a small plot of land in HSR(their 3rd). sports space
is unlikely. their school in koramangala next to NGV doesnt again seem to have much
space for any outdoor sport. the indiranagar one is huge but does have one field atleast.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 15 Feb 2009 21:37

Singha, the option b) I am not sure is a necessary condition for NPS admission. My friends kids go there and they both work. As for condition a) they very well beat that threshold by a large margin. I was there at the school premises during my B'lore stay and it was tight for space as you say. The kids were running around the street corners and it all looked like a big concrete jungle, when compared to vast open spaces anywhere near Massa schools. Even inner city schools here have a large spaces for playgrounds ithyadi that kids need.

The family seems to swear by the quality of the school, though I am not entirely convinced from a first look from the outside. All the kids did look like from the yuppie class, unlike my schooldays where we were all scrawny and looked malnourished.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 16 Feb 2009 08:56

On the topic of education, I've seen a fairly interesting article 'On Education' by Einstein- actually, a speech made in 1936, in Albany, New York. It is published in 2 books 'Ideas and Opinions' and 'Out of My Later years'. Worth reading, IMHO. There are 2 quotes that stand out from this speech/article.

"If a young man has strained his muscles and physical endurance by gymnastics and walking, he will later be fitted for every physical work. This is also analogous to the training of the mind and exercising the mental and manual skill. Thus the wit was not wrong who defined education in this way: “ Education is that which remains, if one has forgotten everything he has learned in school.” "

There's another one: "The development of general ability for independent thinking and judgment should always be placed foremost not the acquisition of special subject knowledge. If a person masters the fundamentals of his subject and has learned to think and work independently, he will surely find his way and besides will better be able to adapt himself to progress and changes than the person who’s training principally consists in the acquiring of detailed knowledge."

Think about it, Einstein considered 'acquisition of special subject knowledge' as secondary. This from a person who made major contributions in different areas of fundamental physics. While he was not talking specifically about R&D, it does give one a sense of this views on education.

Admins: I don't think I am violating copyright by quoting the above two. They form a small portion of the article, and both quotes are available in public domain (via google books) on this page:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Q1UxYz ... &ct=result
(Added later: Heck, the entire article is there- pages 31 through 37).

vina · Post by **vina** » 16 Feb 2009 09:14

Yawn.. While, you jingos rant and rave about EYE EYE TEA and Pee Yeech Dee in a hoity toity Massa Univ, what phor all that I ask you?

GeorgeJ , our own GJMan is right of course. The Phyoochur is not anything to do with them, but our own salt of the earth EXTRA SRDE , ESDRE (TM) with names like Poongothai and Mamatha G.

Ask our own dear (reformed and straightened)Col. Ajai Shukla

Like GJman said, it aint any of you jingos doing anything, engineering wise, but wimmin wielding the sharp end of the knife. Now with a name like "Poongothai" (500% hard core Tamil onree Saar), that maam, in all probability aint gonna be anywhere near any Eye Eye Tea and probably graduated from a SDRE govt engg /private engg college in Tamil Nadu.

And yeah, she will be extra hard core rice eater onree. I am sure she subscribes largely to the school of though that used to be prevelant in TN , "Rotti thiNNa, setthu paiduva'" (if you eat bread, you will die), probably from the days , when you are sick /nearly on the death bed, you were given "bread" and not the usual rice!.

Willing to bet that said maam aint no "give me the daily bread" or TFTA "wheat " eater saar!. Bade Saar is right of course. Maybe the future really belongs to the salt of the earth types, rather than the smooth talking MBA type city slickers and the urban /urbane type! (but gosh what will happen to folks like them saar and who will do the entrepreneurship /bijness thing if everyone is just Yingineer onree?)

For the So Piss Ticated types, the clock is ringing and the gong is going just going to strike onree.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Feb 2009 09:31

this shift happened long ago. if you recall the brown sahibs and their kids used to
corner all the best jobs in the past - tea/coffee garden managers, FMCG mba jobs (they filled up the iims in the days when nobody outside metros knew of iims), IAS/IFS/IRS.....it was claimed only these products of elite schools had the "breeding" and "exposure" to rule. you got into the Club not just on elite schools but family name and how deftly you handled silver cutlery and removed any trace of native accent from your english.

even today many of the CxOs in indian industry are from that background but the middle rungs are mostly not. time will take care of things.

wrt IIT the kota/ramaiah system for all its obvious flaws has atleast given a chance
for small town lads/ladies to pull themselves up from poor schooling and compete
with the products of the DPS rk purams, DAV vidyalayas and st xaviers of the world.
else they stand no chance at all , maybe the top5% of the possible pool was getting thru and with far lower ranks than with proper "coaching".

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 19 Feb 2009 02:35

Not exactly belonging here, but perhaps interesting.

How to Procrastinate Like Leonardo da Vinci

Nowadays, Leonardo da Vinci might have been hired by a top research university, but it seems likely that he would have been denied tenure. He had lots of notes but relatively little to put in his portfolio.

http://chronicle.com/weekly/v55/i24/24b ... _medium=en