The Red Menace

sureshm · Post by **sureshm** » 24 Feb 2009 19:03

I am here to answer any questions you might have regarding the leftist ideology. Feel free to ask some good questions. No flaming, no flippancy, please. I can only answer earnest queries. Thank you.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 24 Feb 2009 23:30

Does the leftist ideology have any flaws? If so, what are they?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Feb 2009 23:44

in a nut shell, unrealistic and utopian. also, much stress is laid upon the fact that marxism is a science and such moronic ideas.
noted quantum physicists like abraham ioffe were severely persecuted in FSU since quantum theory contradicted dialectic materialism big time.

as a practice its greatest flaw is that it fails to provide a workable framework for achieving its means. the ones demonstrated only replaced one category of despots with another.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 24 Feb 2009 23:49

Sureshmji,
what do you mean by "leftist ideology"? "Left" in India has a specific context. But what is "leftist ideology"? Do you mean anything that sources itself or justifies from one or more of aspects of Marx's various theses (not all of which are consistent or non-conflicting with each other) or do you include a much wider and older ideological spectrum - like the earlier "socialists"?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Feb 2009 23:57

do you include the nihilists among your leftists too ?
what about nazis and khmers ?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Feb 2009 00:03

no we shouldnt make that entire ethnicity "red" - you mean just the "khmer red" (rouge)

Ananth · Post by **Ananth** » 25 Feb 2009 00:46

vsudhir wrote: How bad is the red menace in Maharashtra? Has it been wiped out from non-Telengana AP?

I recall naxal forays as far away as the Krishna and Prakasam districts. How bad is the infestation in Orissa, Jharkhand, WB and Bihar proper?

Chandrapur area of vidharbha especially where DK forest extends into MH, naxals still have some influence. The thing is that, normalcy in these areas should not be confused with annhilition of naxals. Further, due to remoteness, it is difficult to get uptodate news about these regions. And in these areas, no news _does_not_ mean good news. The terrain is difficult, population is sparse, so it is very easy for naxals to piss in a small village and claim the whole areas as under their control. My hypothesis for reduction of naxals violence in Kerala is that it was not only due to the effectiveness of KP, but also terrain. Kerala is relatively densely populated, so it is not easy for naxals to subvert a small region, unlike DK areas, where they need to tackle only few people to achieve their goals. Further communication in KR far better than Bastar/Dantewada areas of CG.

In Andhra, there were reports around 2000-2003 about their influence in Prakasam. However, I think the naxals have real hold near Aruku, Srikakulam, northern Andhra especially near AOB. Again this is due to terrain and relative under development of these areas. There is a sunlight hypothesis: wherever there is sunlight there are no cockroaches. Think of state capital and other vital cities in the state as beacons of light, the farther you go, the influence of the state reduces. Add trecherous terrain and dense jungles, you have ready made territory for naxals.

AP can create greyhounds, may even overpower naxals for a short while, the naxals will do strategic retreat, and then when there is political disstability, it gives them opening to start their piss-in-a-village-tax-the-kingdom routine. The point is this race against is not a 100m dash, but a marathon that needs to be sustained across different government. Look now, CBN is compromising with naxals for election purposes, this even after he was seriously wounded in the attack.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 25 Feb 2009 00:50

Rahul M wrote:noted quantum physicists like abraham ioffe were severely persecuted in FSU since quantum theory contradicted dialectic materialism big time.

Can any one explain to me (in simple terms) what is this 'dialectic materialism'. In mallu-speak there is a word vairudhyaathmaka boudhikavaadam

, but I don't know whether both mean the same. The mallu-word is now frequently used to make fun of the communist budhijeevis (thinkers).

sureshm · Post by **sureshm** » 25 Feb 2009 13:36

JE Menon wrote:Does the leftist ideology have any flaws?

No.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Feb 2009 13:42

what are the aims of a leftist ideology ?

why do people's life under one become a little worse than a dogs' ?

sureshm · Post by **sureshm** » 25 Feb 2009 13:50

Rahul M wrote:in a nut shell, unrealistic and utopian. also, much stress is laid upon the fact that marxism is a science and such moronic ideas.
noted quantum physicists like abraham ioffe were severely persecuted in FSU since quantum theory contradicted dialectic materialism big time.

as a practice its greatest flaw is that it fails to provide a workable framework for achieving its means. the ones demonstrated only replaced one category of despots with another.

It reveals your ignorance. Marx himself was critical of Hegel's DM, and said it wasn't complete, meaning DM isn't an integral part of Marxism. Historical Materialism is. Do not confuse the two. Besides, no less a person than Einstein has endorsed socialism in one of his essays. Do you want a link to that essay?

As to your comments on one despot replacing the other, one can say the same thing about Hinduism and India, that it can only produce the likes of Lallo, Manmohan etc., and therefore Indians/Hindus are an inferior race, fit only to be slaves. Hopefully, you catch my drift. We're trying to understand the leftist ideology as it is, NOT about self-proclaimed leftists or socialist nations.

As to practicality, they said the same thing about democracy, that it'll never be established and monarchy will always be there. With your negative thinking, we'd still have feudalism. But all these were replaced by democracy, capitalism etc. So it's inevitable in the course of history that capitalism will collapse from within, thereby giving birth to socialism and eventually communism.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 25 Feb 2009 13:57

Sachin wrote:
Rahul M wrote:noted quantum physicists like abraham ioffe were severely persecuted in FSU since quantum theory contradicted dialectic materialism big time.
Can any one explain to me (in simple terms) what is this 'dialectic materialism'. In mallu-speak there is a word vairudhyaathmaka boudhikavaadam , but I don't know whether both mean the same. The mallu-word is now frequently used to make fun of the communist budhijeevis (thinkers).

i dont know malayaaLi, but if my samskruta is right, they are similar.

but that is one of my pet curiosities. i dont know if marx has been applied to marx.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Feb 2009 14:02

sachin, I guess brihaspati ji will do a better job than me but I'll give it a try.

barebones, it is the idea that everything in the world around us can be explained in terms of opposite forces and anti-forces. this is the dialectic part of DMism. the materialistic part is an essentially deterministic philosophy that says that no information is beyond the purview of the material world and that information is in principle at least, knowable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism

in bengali it is called bastuvadi dwandovad.
bastu --> matter
dwando --> dialectic
vad/wad --> ism.

sureshm · Post by **sureshm** » 25 Feb 2009 14:03

brihaspati wrote:Sureshmji,
what do you mean by "leftist ideology"? "Left" in India has a specific context. But what is "leftist ideology"? Do you mean anything that sources itself or justifies from one or more of aspects of Marx's various theses (not all of which are consistent or non-conflicting with each other) or do you include a much wider and older ideological spectrum - like the earlier "socialists"?

Leftist ideology, whether Marxist Leninism, Trotskyism, or the extreme left communism, or even anarcho-communism....they all have the same basic principles such as:

# Workers control of the MoP
# Labor Credits to replace monetary system
# Direct Democracy
# No creation and accumulation of surplus value, and therefore
# No commodity production as in capitalism (meaning, products and services will lose the character of being commodities and will remain objects of use value only).

Since no nation has done this, no nation has ever been socialist. Now if you want to judge socialism on the basis of what self-proclaimed socialists did in Cambodia, be my guest. I too could say Hindus burn women, sati is their way of life, and so forth. See what I am driving at? To understand Hinduism, I'd rather delve into upanishads, I wouldn't judge them on what bad Hindus do. Likewise, if you're serious about socialism, you'd do well to read books on Marxism by Marxists, rather than assume you know it all simply by reading about Kymer whatever.

Problem is, most people assume that socialism=kymer=naxals and therefore red is all evil. This is similar to hindu=sati=dowry and therefore hindu=evil.

sureshm · Post by **sureshm** » 25 Feb 2009 14:07

Rahul M wrote:what are the aims of a leftist ideology ?

why do people's life under one become a little worse than a dogs' ?

Why do people's lives under Hindus become a little worse than that of dogs'? Is it because Hinduism is bad, or because self-styled Hindus are merely 'using' it to cheat people and stay in power? Hopefully, you catch my drift here.

NO drift here. Wrong thread not to mention wrong interpretation of facts.
If you want to discuss this go to more relevant threads.
In this thread this constitutes trolling.

@Others, don't reply to this flamebait.
Rahul.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Feb 2009 14:18

sureshm wrote:
Rahul M wrote:in a nut shell, unrealistic and utopian. also, much stress is laid upon the fact that marxism is a science and such moronic ideas.
noted quantum physicists like abraham ioffe were severely persecuted in FSU since quantum theory contradicted dialectic materialism big time.

as a practice its greatest flaw is that it fails to provide a workable framework for achieving its means. the ones demonstrated only replaced one category of despots with another.
It reveals your ignorance. Marx himself was critical of Hegel's DM, and said it wasn't complete, meaning DM isn't an integral part of Marxism. Historical Materialism is. Do not confuse the two. Besides, no less a person than Einstein has endorsed socialism in one of his essays. Do you want a link to that essay?
{Quit the strawman argument and stick to the truth.
And cut out aspersions on others' knowledge if you want to stay here.

When did I say hegel's DM ? hegel said nothing about materiaism anyway, it was only dialectics AFAIK.
Dialectic materialism is very much a part of marxism, talk about ignorance.
Historical materialism is simply a name given to the interpretation of society using DM}

As to your comments on one despot replacing the other, one can say the same thing about Hinduism and India, that it can only produce the likes of Lallo, Manmohan etc., and therefore Indians/Hindus are an inferior race, fit only to be slaves. Hopefully, you catch my drift. We're trying to understand the leftist ideology as it is, NOT about self-proclaimed leftists or socialist nations.
{HIndu whatever has nothing to do with this discussion, don't try to weasel out of tight corners using torn shirt open fly arguments.
So I have to believe that leftist ideologies are well and good and work well but in over a hundred years of practice nobody has been yet able to make it work ??
You know, I work in a field if a theory doesn't match with experiments it is thrown to the dustbin. You can continue to cling on to your blind beliefs but don't expect rational people to do so.}
As to practicality, they said the same thing about democracy, that it'll never be established and monarchy will always be there. With your negative thinking, we'd still have feudalism. But all these were replaced by democracy, capitalism etc. So it's inevitable in the course of history that capitalism will collapse from within, thereby giving birth to socialism and eventually communism.
{More attempt to weasel out. We are NOT saying anything about democracy (yet) nor am I saying those things about democracy.

Whether or not *they* said the same thing about democracy is irrelevant when we don't know or care who this mythical they are.

Again stick to facts and logic and try not to troll.}

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 25 Feb 2009 14:20

sureshm wrote:Problem is, most people assume that socialism=kymer=naxals and therefore red is all evil. This is similar to hindu=sati=dowry and therefore hindu=evil.

Suttee was a fringe practise at best & mostly an attempt to prevent the salvery of the Hindu women under the muslim invaders. The idea of Hindu=evil is propagated by those who themselves are adharmic & this muck racking is more of a defense mechanism to cover their own serious shortcomings.

But, any idealogy that constrains free human enterpise is inherently evil. Socialism/Communism in all its shades & variants professes the control of every aspect of human life by the govt. This is plain wrong as has been proven in theory & esp. practise. So be it the theories of Marx or the practices of PRC, all of it is wrong & evil.
The only way forward is the free market. Any attempt to constrain the free market leads to inefficiencies in the system which has to be borne by either the producer or the consumer.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Feb 2009 14:21

derkonig, take this to other threads.
thanks,
Rahul.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 25 Feb 2009 14:33

sureshm,

Do let us know what is good about the Left.

It has failed everywhere.

If it were so good, then it should not have failed.

Even China has abandoned it!

So where is the mismatch?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Feb 2009 14:50

I completely agree with Sureshm; leftist is great ideology, so great that it has never been implemented correctly anywhere by stupid human fools.

In fact its so great that humans will need to evolve for another 100000000 (add your fav number of zeros) here to achieve it -- or you can read The Dispossesed by Ursla Le Geuin (quite a good book) to see where the ideal leftism exists and how (its a sci-fi) of course these advanced folks will also evolve the concept of Left a little when they get there

At which point it will look a lot like hinduism before the Islamic hordes.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 25 Feb 2009 15:03

clearly some people have problem understanding simply worded requests.
I asked NOT to bring in hinduism etc in this thread.
the next violator gets a warning.

Inder Sharma · Post by **Inder Sharma** » 25 Feb 2009 15:11

There is a common behavioral pattern between the Communism and Islamism.

1) They are all-encompassing and seek to establish their identity as an anti-thesis to established societal norm, ethics and behavior.
2) A Common defense for their short-coming is : ‘But that (TSP/KSA/FSU/NOKO) is not really a truly Islamic/Communist State’.

Meaning more red/green is always needed. but further probing implies that what a defendant is actually saying is that a more fanatical quest for totalitarian control is needed to achieve the world-view.

3) Resultantly you always see a competitive race to outdo in piety/ doctrination

Similarities get way scary but then what is the point. ‘Doesn’t the Title of the thread mention ‘Red Menace’. I thought that was self-evident, then why derail a thread.

On a side note: I take full offense at appropriation of the word leftism with communism by sureshm. Commiesm is nothing but a mediocre attempt by uncompetitive bourgeois to excuse themselves from wealth-creation and dupe the proletariat to change the power flow to their(pinko-bourgeois) advantage. The historical political thought-process in India provides for ample Leftist stance spanning a full range of the thought spectrum, and as such does not need a Western interpretation.

Just My Rambling

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 25 Feb 2009 15:12

Guys you are wasting time on a troll.

Go through sureshm's posts.

In one post he suggest we (non-whites) should become racist to counter the whites who he alleges dont fight among themselves.

In another post he suggests india should become leader of islamic world.

The more you counter his posts with logic the more lunatic posts he will post.

And finally it's a shame that there are many mods who have seen his posts and going by his past posting history know that he is a troll yet they wont take action. This is the real sad part.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Feb 2009 15:18

avinash, why do you think we are trying to counter or convince him ?

we are countering the ideology which he professes to defend.
there is no law to abruptly throw someone off the board, it will happen if it happens.

till then it doesn't hurt to rehash some of the arguments/facts for the benefit of those who are still enamoured by this ideology, after all many people read these boards than just the members.
and although most people on this board are aware of the fallacies, some are not.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 25 Feb 2009 15:23

rahul as you can see from his posts he has shifted from leftist ideology to religion.

He is not here to debate but one of those spit and run posters.

And best of luck in your endeavour to counter or convince him.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Feb 2009 15:25

And best of luck in your endeavour to counter or convince him.

as I mentioned I don't intend to.

if he, or anyone else goes out of line he/she will be warned in accordance with board procedures.
so what's the takleef ?
regards.

AjayKK · Post by **AjayKK** » 25 Feb 2009 15:29

AP topped in surrender of naxals in 2006-08

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 184902.cms

NEW DELHI: Over 2,000 naxalites surrendered across the country in the past three years with Andhra Pradesh alone recording surrender of 651 Red ultras between 2006 and 2008.

Though the worst naxal-affected state Chhattisgarh topped the list with the surrender of as many as 901 naxalites in a single year in 2006, Andhra Pradesh remained the most consistent during 2006-08. It recorded 282 surrenders in 2006, 162 in 2007 and 197 (in 2008).

In a written reply to a question in Lok Sabha, minister of state for home Sriprakash Jaiswal said out of 1,550 naxalites and militants who surrendered in 2008, a maximum of 724 were from Assam. A total of 38 militants surrendered in J&K, 325 in Tripura, 197 in Andhra Pradesh and 150 in Maharashtra, he added.

If only the Cong-NCP in MH would do something other than fighting for seats, the naxals wouldnt have killed Upendra Dhananjay Guldekar , along with 14 others, who was (punish ? ) posted to the region only few months back .

Update on Upendra Guldekar in the Police thread.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/postin ... 2&p=625142

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Feb 2009 17:27

We can safely ignore trolls waxing eloquent about exotic ideology found only in books, and never implemented in practice, as they themselves admit. This thread anyway is focused on the specific actions and agendas of rapist goons, economic saboteurs, private rapist goon armies of shady Chinese businessmen, mass murderers, traitors, chinese puppets and eye-gougers who may or may not be pure 'socialists', we give a rats a.s.

That's why I suppose the thread has been named 'menace' and not something else.

Perhaps the HQ of the trolls can take up on the suggestion of our friend and judge Hindus by the Gita and not what Mutalik says or does

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Feb 2009 21:20

Sureshm wrote
Leftist ideology, whether Marxist Leninism, Trotskyism, or the extreme left communism, or even anarcho-communism....they all have the same basic principles such as:

# Workers control of the MoP
# Labor Credits to replace monetary system
# Direct Democracy
# No creation and accumulation of surplus value, and therefore
# No commodity production as in capitalism (meaning, products and services will lose the character of being commodities and will remain objects of use value only).

Your terms are not clear Sureshm, can you please specify? Is their something called Marxist Leninism - I thought it was Marxism Leninism - or Marxist Leninist : o.w. we could be talking about Bakuninist Leninism etc.?

Is Trostkysim separate or non-Overlapping from Marxism or Marxism-Leninism? What is an extreme left communism - can there be extreme right communism, or moderate left communism? anarcho-communism - was Bakunin for example an anarcho communist or what about the Spartakists or the Reds of West Germany? I thought you were speaking of ideology - so the questions.

Okay workers control over means of production is a theme less in Marx and more in the activist and garrulous Engels, rarely even in Lenin, almost never in Stalin and Mao, most in Trotsky. But Labour credits to replace monetary system - now thats a big one! How man times has been this brought up by the three "great" theoreticians - Marx, Engels and Lenin? Direct democracy - what is that? It is only Enegels who talks about the "parliamentary road to socialism" being a viable one, and Lenin sometimes rebukes "communists" who overly "boycott" parliaments but the overwhelming theme appears to be "dictatorship of the proletariat" - folowingon from the very Marxian theme of the state being a repressive instrument that should be used to impose the hegemony of the "proletariat" typically through a "vanguard" party.

No creation and accummulation of surplus value? Aha - can you please explain the theory of growth in Marxism then? Starting from Marx himself - probably most of his relevant quotes can be found in his unfinished 3rd volume of Das Kapital and his Grundrisse. Pierro Sraffa and Roemer's work could be explored! Even the great Yossif Jugashvli wrote a piece on the unavodability of commodity production and market forms in the post war period

Since no nation has done this, no nation has ever been socialist. Now if you want to judge socialism on the basis of what self-proclaimed socialists did in Cambodia, be my guest. I too could say Hindus burn women, sati is their way of life, and so forth. See what I am driving at? To understand Hinduism, I'd rather delve into upanishads, I wouldn't judge them on what bad Hindus do. Likewise, if you're serious about socialism, you'd do well to read books on Marxism by Marxists, rather than assume you know it all simply by reading about Kymer whatever.

Sureshmji - please suggest a few books by Marxists on Marxism - Marx's collected writings (Penguin has a series, that includes the Grundrisse, not available from Russian sources), Bakunin, Engels, Kautsky, Lenin's collected writings total 44 vols I think), Rosa Luxembourg, Bukharin, Stalin's collected writings (12 vols), Trotsky, Antonio Gramsci, Thalheimer, Mao, Maurice Dobb, Lukacs, Korsch, Bernstein, Adorno, Althusser, Marcuse, Pannenkoek...can these be a start? Can you give me a frequencey count about how many times your basic principles appear in these authors? Some of these you mention, I think, appear very very rarely.....

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 25 Feb 2009 21:30

Avinash R wrote:rahul as you can see from his posts he has shifted from leftist ideology to religion.

He is not here to debate but one of those spit and run posters.

And best of luck in your endeavour to counter or convince him.

Nothing surprising.

Communists are Opportunists and fickle as the wind!

Ananth · Post by **Ananth** » 25 Feb 2009 23:19

The wooing began with TDP sucking up to naxals, now reel-life communist wants to bed with real-life maoist.
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... meA==&SEO=
No fake ‘encounters’ of Naxals if PRP comes to power: Chiru

There would be no fake encounter killing of Naxalites if his party came to power, declared Praja Rajyam Party (PRP) president Chiranjeevi and assured that those who had left the Naxal movement would be employed.

He was addressing a Statelevel conference of former activists (Naxals) here today.

The Telugu Desam Party (TDP) went to the elections in 2004 on the issue of law and order but it was now stating that the Naxal issue was a social and economic problem, Chiranjeevi ridiculed.

The Congress, which held talks with the Naxals, latter changed its policy, he said.

The cost of naxals menace:
Rural electrification drive slows in some states due to Maoist fear
http://www.livemint.com/2009/02/2421500 ... ve-sl.html

India’s ambitious programme to provide electricity to the rural poor is facing trouble in some states because officials there are unwilling to travel to villages to collect data, fearing Maoist violence.
These states are Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa and Madhya Pradesh, said a power ministry official, who declined being identified.

K. Ramanathan, distinguished fellow at The Energy and Resources Institute, said: “In Maoist-affected areas, even if there is a BPL list, its credibility gets questionable... This is not only a problem with RGGVY, but with a majority of power projects in the country. Unless law and order problem is tackled by the government at the administrative level, it will be difficult to implement developmental projects.”
This is not the first government-sponsored project to face trouble from Maoists. Mint had reported on 11 June about the delay in the expansion of Damodar Valley Corp.’s Rs2,000 crore power plant at Chanderpura in Jharkhand.
The proposed 4,000MW Tilaiya power project also faces similar hurdles, as reported by Mint on 17 December.

Chicken-n-egg problem. Naxal's business model is similar to that of slumlord. As long as there are slums they can lord over it, but as the people in the slum get upwardly mobile, their business model is threatened. So they would like to keep people in the slums and prevent any efforts towards their development. Their hope is GoI only has finite patience, it will definitely run out due to repeated harassment and will outsource governence and revenue collection to the naxals. That is not a misplaced hope. It happened in CG. Hence, the struggle is a long one.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 26 Feb 2009 01:09

The fine "democratic" traditions of the ultra-left party AISA upheld. Good preparation before entering the main battle-fields. But then if they have to contest elections, they only have the moderate left CPM, CPI and FB to pick from. The Maoists dont participate in elections!

Five students of JNU, including the students' union president, were on Wednesday rusticated by the varsity authorities for their "defiant act" of stalling the sale of prospectus in the campus. Apart from president Sandeep Singh, other rusticated students are Shephalika Shekhar, vice president of the students union, Mobeen Alam, JNUSU joint secretary, Roshan Kishore and Renu Singh.

"The sale counter was not allowed to function the whole day despite an appeal by Dean of Students requesting them not to disrupt the normal functioning of the admission branch," the varsity said in a statement. "This act of defiance and use of force prompted the issuing of show cause notices to seek an explanation for their serious act of indiscipline and misconduct. The erring students have failed to provide any satisfactory response to the show cause notices. The Chief Proctor's Office unfortunately was left with no option but to take disciplinary action by rusticating some of them," the statement said.

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/st ... 0090084840

See http://www.hindu.com/2006/10/31/stories ... 150400.htm to understand who these people are.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Feb 2009 01:50

Some news from the Necropolis of Learning...

5 JNU students, including Union president, rusticated

sureshm · Post by **sureshm** » 26 Feb 2009 11:00

brihaspati wrote: Your terms are not clear Sureshm, can you please specify? Is their something called Marxist Leninism - I thought it was Marxism Leninism - or Marxist Leninist : o.w. we could be talking about Bakuninist Leninism etc.? Is Trostkysim separate or non-Overlapping from Marxism or Marxism-Leninism? What is an extreme left communism - can there be extreme right communism, or moderate left communism? anarcho-communism - was Bakunin for example an anarcho communist or what about the Spartakists or the Reds of West Germany? I thought you were speaking of ideology - so the questions

Seems like you're suffering from verbal diarrhea.

Hope you get well with time.

Okay workers control over means of production is a theme less in Marx and more in the activist and garrulous Engels, rarely even in Lenin, almost never in Stalin and Mao, most in Trotsky. But Labour credits to replace monetary system - now thats a big one! How man times has been this brought up by the three "great" theoreticians - Marx, Engels and Lenin?

Your Hindu logic is quite amusing. You assume a thing has value if it's mentioned many times. Hinduism mentions caste atrocities many times, so that has value, then? It doesn't mention equality, so are you going to suggest Hinduism is against equality? This is why inference is always a good idea. And if you can can apply your brain (assuming you have one), you'll come to the same conclusion. From LTV, you infer that workers control would be the right thing to do. And so forth. You honestly didn't expect Marx to have said this a million times, just because your puny brain cannot comprehend.

Direct democracy - what is that? It is only Enegels who talks about the "parliamentary road to socialism" being a viable one, and Lenin sometimes rebukes "communists" who overly "boycott" parliaments but the overwhelming theme appears to be "dictatorship of the proletariat" - folowingon from the very Marxian theme of the state being a repressive instrument that should be used to impose the hegemony of the "proletariat" typically through a "vanguard" party.

Your puny Hindu brain is confusing the Marxist idea of direct democracy with the bourgeois representative democracy that we have today; hence your foolish questions. Also, you haven't understood DoP at all. Democracy is the rule of the majority, and since workers are the majority, they ought to be in control. This is true democracy, whether or not you call it DoP.

No creation and accummulation of surplus value? Aha - can you please explain the theory of growth in Marxism then? Starting from Marx himself - probably most of his relevant quotes can be found in his unfinished 3rd volume of Das Kapital and his Grundrisse. Pierro Sraffa and Roemer's work could be explored! Even the great Yossif Jugashvli wrote a piece on the unavodability of commodity production and market forms in the post war period

It's obvious you don't know the difference between commodities and articles of use. And it's considered polite to actually quote the paragraph, rather than say it's all there in Das Kapital. But I know why you're doing it. You simply want to pretend that you're well-versed in this.

I've seen these tricks before, Brihas. And I know you know very little, which is why you're hiding behind these names instead of actually quoting them.

Sureshmji - please suggest a few books by Marxists on Marxism - Marx's collected writings (Penguin has a series, that includes the Grundrisse, not available from Russian sources), Bakunin, Engels, Kautsky, Lenin's collected writings total 44 vols I think), Rosa Luxembourg, Bukharin, Stalin's collected writings (12 vols), Trotsky, Antonio Gramsci, Thalheimer, Mao, Maurice Dobb, Lukacs, Korsch, Bernstein, Adorno, Althusser, Marcuse, Pannenkoek...can these be a start? Can you give me a frequencey count about how many times your basic principles appear in these authors? Some of these you mention, I think, appear very very rarely.....

Copying and pasting these names isn't going to convince me that you've read or understood anything. But like I said, I've seen these tricks before from people who copy/paste lots of names simply to convince everyone that they're knowledgeable. Not gonna work with me! So try again with some real stuff.

Response replete with paki-level flame-baiting, anti-hindu comments and ad-hominem attacks.
And an incredible lack of informed opinion of ANY kind.
Even an anti-communist like me might have managed to defend it better than you !

The guideline violations in this post were enough to earn you at least 2 warnings, consider yourself lucky to have just one.
Till now, you have displayed neither the intent nor the ability to engage in a civilized discussion of any kind, let alone a meaningful one.
If you continue on the same vein I don't foresee a long stay on this forum for you.
Consider this your final warning.
Rahul.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Feb 2009 11:50

Others, kindly don't respond to the provocative post above.
Rahul.

sureshm · Post by **sureshm** » 26 Feb 2009 11:51

On a side note, I wonder what level of discussion I am gonna have with illiterate Hindus like Brihas, who question the very basis of Marxist thought, which is the workers control of the MoP. Look at it this way. If workers don't control MoP in Marxism, who will? If it's the bourgeois, then it'll be no different from capitalism. So logically, workers are the only class who can control MoP in Marxism, particularly in view of LTV. Or, why would Marx urge workers of the world to unite, if not to control the means of production and taste the full value of their produce?

And yet, illiterate Hindus have the bad habit of attacking things that do NOT exist in Marxism, just to make it look bad. No wonder, Hindus are dragging India down the path of darkness.

This is so boring ! This fellow can't even type a sentence w/o hurling abuses. Anyway, works everytime, give the commidiot enough rope and he will oblige.
Time for you to go to pakistan. you two are made for each other.

sureshm · Post by **sureshm** » 26 Feb 2009 11:53

sureshm wrote: And an incredible lack of informed opinion of ANY kind.
[/b]

The guy Brihas wonders whether workers control of MoP is part of Marxism, and yet you're accusing me of having no informed opinion?

Maybe, there's something wrong with what you're drinking (I meant coca cola, just to be sure!).

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 26 Feb 2009 12:01

Sureshm,

Please note that you must have a civil tongue in your head.

I think you are transgressing the limits of decency in your syntax in some of your posts.

You have been warned and I also wish to caution you since, while I am all for free speech, but I don't condone licence.

Watch it!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 26 Feb 2009 12:13

Mod's cap off and member's cap on.

Sureshm,

You have not answered my query as to why the Leftist ideas have seen its demise all over the world, be it the USSR, China, and now even Cuba,

If it were all that wonderful and workable, would it not be embraced by more countries and peoples instead of being rejected as an unworkable proposition?

While the principle appear attractive to the deprived, is it not a Utopia?

Even in WB and Kerala, there is no Communism per se, but is used only as a vehicle for staying in power. The current crisis amongst the Kerela Communists shows abject corruption and is being condoned by the Central Secretariat or whatever Karat heads. In WB, there is unabashed wooing of the capitalists. Does proves that Communism and Leftism is a bit bogus and cannot be implemented.

The only country that was steadfast in upholding Leftist and Communist ideology was Cuba. However, the country became impoverished!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Feb 2009 19:27

Sureshmji,
seems like a waste of time - you appear to be steeped in the culture of "revolutionary audacity" more expressed through arrogance and uncouthness of language and expression than in any real revolutionary activity. However, I think you nicely expose the fundamental problem with people who claim to be "communists", your supreme arrogance towards other human beings - just like Marx himself, a communist of this type usually assumes that everyone else knows less tham him, has read less than him, are all intellectually inferior, and simple bluster will be enough to cow them down. Essentially you are after power, just like some of the priesthood of the religions of the past you abuse now so verbally. And you want to claim this power on the basis of your claims of intellectual superiority.

Since I have seen many like you in the "lower" ranks of the "party" it does not take me a lot to figure out your political level and experience, or even perhaps your exposure to serious Marxist theoretical works.

It's obvious you don't know the difference between commodities and articles of use. And it's considered polite to actually quote the paragraph, rather than say it's all there in Das Kapital. But I know why you're doing it. You simply want to pretend that you're well-versed in this. I've seen these tricks before, Brihas. And I know you know very little, which is why you're hiding behind these names instead of actually quoting them.

We were talking of surplus value which occurs in Vol I and II, and on many different paragraphs, why should I quote all of that here - this is not a training ground for Marxist literature! Well, there goes the communist again - assume that the fellow is hiding behind the names. I asked you to clarify from these authors how much explicit support you have found for your claimed "basic principles" in these works. It is not my duty to quote since I am not claiming that these are the "basic principles". I would just be waiting with eager anticipation for what you think are supporting quotes - my tastiest job starts right then!

did such "tasting" before with "central" level theoreticians - would love to enjoy again that same red-faced stuttering in anger reaction to demolition! It is always a good sign of tactical strength in assuming your "enemy" is a "washout" - isnt it Sureshm?

Your puny Hindu brain is confusing the Marxist idea of direct democracy with the bourgeois representative democracy that we have today; hence your foolish questions. Also, you haven't understood DoP at all. Democracy is the rule of the majority, and since workers are the majority, they ought to be in control. This is true democracy, whether or not you call it DoP.

Again ignoring the community angle, (by the way brain capacity does not change much after early childhood - I am guessing you cannot be born a communist can you, which makes you from your nom-de-BRF most likely to be a "Hindu" - is that the reason most communists in India suffer from lack of intelligence? what do you think?) I simply asked you to explain what you mean by direct democracy and where exactly it is elaborated in Marxist theory. You are the most knowledgeable one, remember? Regarding DoP - well another story - can only respond when you state your concept clearly - different Marxists give different versions.

Your Hindu logic is quite amusing. You assume a thing has value if it's mentioned many times. Hinduism mentions caste atrocities many times, so that has value, then? It doesn't mention equality, so are you going to suggest Hinduism is against equality? This is why inference is always a good idea. And if you can can apply your brain (assuming you have one), you'll come to the same conclusion. From LTV, you infer that workers control would be the right thing to do. And so forth. You honestly didn't expect Marx to have said this a million times, just because your puny brain cannot comprehend.

we can go into the casteism debate yes - but how many times have atrocities been mentioned in all of Hindu narrative texts? Have you really counted? No mention of equality at all - what about "amritasya putraa"? There is no problem with inference, if you can apply it correctly - and problem with most Marxist brains appears to be an inability to understand the basic principle sof logical thinking, mostly sinking in tautologies. It is only among Marxists I find people who claim such hilarious logic as "Marxism is true, because it is a science". My question was exactly on this inference - you appear to be blissfully unaware of the long debate within Marxists themselves about LTV and its status in modern economic thinking, even among Marxian economists.

Copying and pasting these names isn't going to convince me that you've read or understood anything. But like I said, I've seen these tricks before from people who copy/paste lots of names simply to convince everyone that they're knowledgeable. Not gonna work with me! So try again with some real stuff.

Just quoting and pasting! Thats a sure giveaway Sureshm - some of these authors are long out of print! So you have not yourself come across many of these authors - thats as I expected from the bluster!