Tracking Errors in Defence reporting

KSubramanian · Post by **KSubramanian** » 18 Jun 2008 00:02

Gurmeet Kanwal
Tuesday, June 17, 2008 20:42 IST

The Indian army’s drive towards modernisation lacks the momentum it needs

For a long time now India’s first-rate army has been saddled with second-rate weapons and equipment, despite heavy operational commitments on border management and in counter-insurgency operations.

The ongoing Revolution in Military Affairs (RMA) has passed the Indian army by, because extremely limited funds are made available for modernisation and a large portion of these funds is surrendered due to political scandals and bureaucratic red tape.

Defence minister AK Antony admitted recently, “New procurements have commenced… but we are still lagging by 15 years.” If this state of affairs is allowed to continue by the government, the quantitative military gap with China will soon become a qualitative gap as well.

Also, the slender conventional edge that the Indian army enjoys over its Pakistani counterpart will be eroded further, as Pakistan is spending a considerable amount on its military modernisation.

While Pakistan has acquired 320 T-80 UD tanks and is on course to add Khalid tanks co-developed with China{do they call xeroxing the Type 90 and adding a couple of extra feature co-development these days?} to its armour fleet, vintage Vijayant tanks and ageing T-55s continue in the Indian Army’s inventory.

The indigenously developed Arjun MBT has not met the army’s expectations, though the tank has entered serial production to equip two regiments.

Consequently, 310 T-90S MBTs had to be imported from Russia. In December 2007, a contract was signed for an additional 347 T-90 tanks to be assembled in India.

Meanwhile, a programme has been launched to modernise the T-72 M1 Ajeya MBTs, the mainstay of the army’s Strike Corps and their armoured divisions since the 1980s. About 1,700 T-72 M1s have been manufactured at the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF), Avadi.

Despite the lessons learnt in the Kargil conflict, modernisation of the artillery lags behind. The last major acquisition of towed gun-howitzers was that of about 400 pieces of 39-calibre 155 mm FH-77B howitzers from Bofors of Sweden in the mid-1980s.

New tenders have been floated for 155mm/ 39-calibre light-weight howitzers for the mountains and 155mm/52-calibre long-range howitzers for the plains. It will take three to four years for the first new guns to enter service.

A contract for the acquisition of two regiments of the 12-tube, 300 mm Smerch multi-barrel rocket launcher (MBRL) system with 90 km range was signed with Russia’s Rosoboronexport in early 2006.

The BrahMos supersonic cruise missile was inducted into the army in July 2007. These terrain-hugging missiles are virtually immune to counter-measures. Both will provide a major boost for hitting the enemy at long ranges.

The Corps of Air Defence Artillery (CADA) is also faced with problems of obsolescence. The vintage L-70 40 mm AD gun system, the four-barrelled ZSU-23-4 Schilka (SP) AD gun system, the SAM-6 (Kvadrat) and the SAM-8 OSA-AK need to be urgently replaced by more responsive modern AD systems.

The Akash and Trishul surface-to-air missiles have not yet been successfully developed by DRDO.

The modernisation plans of India’s cutting edge infantry battalions, aimed at enhancing their capability for surveillance and target acquisition at night and boosting their firepower for precise retaliation against infiltrating columns and terrorists holed up in built-up areas, are moving but at a snail’s pace.

These include plans to acquire Hand-held battlefield surveillance radars (BFSRs), hand-held thermal imaging devices (HHTIs) for observation at night, and stand-alone infra-red, seismic and acoustic sensors need to be acquired in large numbers to enable infantrymen to dominate the Line of Control (LoC) and detect terrorists.

Similarly, the operational capabilities of army aviation, engineers, signal communications, reconnaissance, surveillance and target acquisition (RSTA) branches need to be substantially enhanced so that the overall combat potential of the army can be improved by an order of magnitude.

Modern strategic and tactical level command and control systems need to be acquired on priority basis for better synergies during conventional and sub-conventional conflict.

With the defence budget now pegged at less than 2.0 per cent of the GDP, the funds available for modernisation are grossly inadequate. The only alternative is to undertake quantitative reduction in force levels so as to save funds for modernisation.

However, the army is not only deployed along a long border with China and along the LoC with Pakistan on a permanent basis but is also engaged extensively in manpower-intensive counter-insurgency operations and, hence, finds it difficult to reduce its manpower.

The writer is Director, Centre for Land Warfare Studies, New Delhi. Views expressed are personal

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2008 00:18

Brig. Kanwal is not a DDM so there is some truth to his charges. The long equipment delays have cost the IA its effectiveness. Thats his main point. Might be argued but has some merits. Note he also charges the political scandals and red tape for the above problem.

KSubramanian · Post by **KSubramanian** » 18 Jun 2008 20:13

Sir, I did not intend to call the honorable brigadier a DDM so, if thats what came out of the post then I apologize.
My point was with some of the factual errors in the article which I highlighted.
As, you point out those can be argued either way.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jun 2008 16:52

Minor hiccup - but funny
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.as ... &id=583437

"We are looking for partners, public and private both in India and abroad for this project", Chidananda said adding that Brat and Whitney with whom it had a long partnership could be one of the partners but it was open to others.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Oct 2008 16:10

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Oct ... 697294.asp

Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major said the IAF would purchase 126 Hawk Mk 132 DDM for MMRCA aircraft soon, as light evaluations are over. He added that out of the seven squadrons of the LCA, two (with 20 or more trainer aircraft) will have the IOC-cleared engines. “The remaining five squadrons will have a new engine,” he explained.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 29 Oct 2008 09:28

China’s prime potential enemies
http://www.upiasia.com/Security/2008/10 ... mies/3728/
By Andrei Chang
Column: Military MightPublished: October 24, 2008

On the other hand, China is also keeping an eye on India’s active development of its Flame III intermediate-range ballistic missile, the activities of the Indian navy in the South China Sea, and India’s constantly changing attitude with regard to border disputes.

(Andrei Chang is editor-in-chief of Kanwa Defense Review Monthly, registered in Toronto, Canada.)

He invented a new missile for india all by himself.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Oct 2008 10:43

Flame is easy to remember than Agni name

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 29 Oct 2008 14:03

Wrong chinese translation

Flame = Jwala
Fire = Agni

ChandraS · Post by **ChandraS** » 06 Nov 2008 02:02

India tests indigenous main battle tank

Man, DDM has a biggie for us - Never knew Arjun had a Bofors gun

India has successfully tested its first indigenously-developed main battle tank (MBT).

The official Proof and Experimental Establishment (PXE) conducted trials of the Arjun and its advanced Bofors gun at Chandipuron, 15km from Balasore.

"The important test was functioning proof of Fin Stabilised Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) ammunition for Arjun. Today's tests, aimed at demonstration, showed encouraging results in terms of accuracy, acceleration and ballistic performance," explained PXE director Anoop Malhotra.

The tests referred to above are the routine tests of current stocks and some of the newer modifcations to those ammo. But trust the DDM to mix up royally. Infact the whole article is poorly written without any structure or coherent thought. Btw the reporter seems to be non-Indian, though site is.

A much better report of these tests is found here Clicky

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Nov 2008 09:08

^from the same source,
apparently arjun tank can talk too.

"The ... of 450mm thickness at a distance of 2.5km," added Arjun.

Aharon Etengoff can be contacted at [email protected]

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Nov 2008 16:58

As usual - ignorant media reporters and editors using a random image with a random report imagining hat no one will find out

From the Times of India 8th Nov 2008

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 08 Nov 2008 18:12

Avinash R wrote:^from the same source,
apparently arjun tank can talk too.

"The ... of 450mm thickness at a distance of 2.5km," added Arjun.

Aharon Etengoff can be contacted at [email protected]

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 10 Nov 2008 09:24

Idiotic title for this report

Scientists crow

about Chandrayaan-1

Jayadevan P K

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 10 Nov 2008 10:38

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Wide ... 690283.cms

‘‘Conversely, 250 to 300 of our soldiers die every year battling militants in J&K and North-East, with another 300 dying in road accidents and 100 committing suicide. UN missions are, in fact, almost like paid holidays for our soldiers,’’ says an officer.

Can someone confirm this 300 number. Seems exaggerated but i could be wrong.

Sontu · Post by **Sontu** » 10 Nov 2008 11:44

shiv wrote:As usual - ignorant media reporters and editors using a random image with a random report imagining hat no one will find out

From the Times of India 8th Nov 2008

TOI does it again..

Shows a Typhoon Class Sub image as Nerpa

Times Of India Bangalore 10 Nov 2008

http://s438.photobucket.com/albums/qq11 ... -Nerpa.jpg

Regards,

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Nov 2008 18:54

JaiS wrote:Idiotic title for this report

Scientists crow about Chandrayaan-1

Jayadevan P K

at least the idiot has been taken to task.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Feb 2009 07:48

Is there a difference between carpet and car?
Is there a difference between gastric and gas?
Is there a difference between aircraft and air?
Is there a difference between tanker and tank?

It seems that there is a deliberate policy to employ an ignoramus for defence reporting.

Cross post

http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=57195

Additional security personnel were posted in all the railway stations en-route when the wagons carrying 15 tankers, 20 jeeps and 4 coaches passed through various stations. The army personnel also accompanied the artillery, staying in adjacent bogies with cooking and dining facility on-board.
A similar process had been undertaken by the Army a couple of times before in the past few months. But for general public, it was a rare view to see some of the military tankers and artillery.

Photo of "military tankers"

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 26 Feb 2009 08:05

Shiv, would like to point out couple of drawbacks by defence reporting done by Indian media.
Either these media person are ignorant about simple things or are not willing to know and let other know.

Your above post is clear case of ignorance (or perhaps deliberate policy as you say) of the photographer.

OTOH I find lousiness when Times and other leading media just put caption "Indian Army soldier with his armament during ....exercise" rather then trying to be more specific like "Indian Army soldier with Milan Anti Tank Missile during ...exercise"

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Mar 2009 13:51

Cross post from:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 52#p627252

BrahMos-II by 2013, DRDO to develop invisible technology

''We are on the process of developing a "clock technology" that will make the warships and aircraft totally invisible,

Flamin heck -

I hope this is not the same clock technology that made the LCA invisible for 20 years and keeps the Gorshkov invisible even today.

DDMitis again - it must be "cloak" and not "clock"

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Mar 2009 13:54

Flamin heck - I hope this is not the same clock technology that made the LCA invisible for 20 years and keeps the Gorshkov invisible even today.

krishna_j · Post by **krishna_j** » 01 Mar 2009 14:29

good one Shiv

This ranks well with two gaffe's i can recall though not entirely connected :

Marshall Dmitriy Ustinov - Minister of Defense and Supreme commander of Warsaw Pact forces and second only to Brezhnev passed away after a sudden illness in Dec 1984.

CPI(M) party from West Bengal in a feat of misplaced enthusiasm sent laurel wreaths and condolence Messages to TASS condoning the death of beloved Comrade Peter Ustinov (well known UK actor) and announced a day of mourning for Comrade Peter and conveyed the same in press releases in india - with many red faces the next day when BBC reported the revered "Comrade Peter" to be in good health

Second gaffe was a misplaced reporter from Indian Express in Blr in the early 90's , who interpreted 'stealth technology" on the B2 - as technology "stolen" (clandestinely) and implemented by the US on the B2.

With the likes of Vishnu Som and Shiv Aroor now we have come a long way - though the occasional gaffe is still lurking around the corner esp in mis-labeled photos lifted from the net.

dinakar · Post by **dinakar** » 02 Mar 2009 18:38

Flying high in the mighty MiG-35

Corrections and Clarifications

In connection with an IANS report "Flying high in the mighty MiG-35" (February 16, 2009), Ms. Suman Sharma clarifies: "This is to bring to your notice some clarifications about the story on my MiG-35 flight................

I am not a commissioned officer with the IAF (I never was) and currently not with the IMA. I was a passenger in the US-bound Boeing 737 commercial aircraft like everybody else, and not its pilot/co-pilot. Neither have I piloted or co-piloted IAF transport planes ever. I have just flown in them as a passenger. I have co-piloted these fighter jets (the F-16 and the MiG-35) in Bangalore for the first time. I categorically told the reporter that I am a Delhi-based journalist and a former academic instructor (not flight instructor - there is no flying taught at the IMA) from the IMA." (The report was on Ms. Sharma becoming the world's first woman to fly the Russian MiG-35 fighter, at the Aero India 2009 air show.) Women fighter pilots are not yet permitted in the IAF.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 Mar 2009 01:19

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi ... 205927.cms

The launched interceptor boat has a speed of 45 nautical mile (around 85 km)

We have a new unit for speed!

I wrote a comment on their site about the mistake but apparently my comment was 'moderated'.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Mar 2009 08:24

shameekg wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi ... 205927.cms

The launched interceptor boat has a speed of 45 nautical mile (around 85 km)
We have a new unit for speed! I wrote a comment on their site about the mistake but apparently my comment was 'moderated'.

shiv wrote:
Is there a difference between carpet and car?
Is there a difference between gastric and gas?
Is there a difference between aircraft and air?
Is there a difference between tanker and tank?

Is there a difference between "knot" and "nautical mile"

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2009 09:03

1 knot = 1 naut. mile/hr

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 Mar 2009 09:37

If they had only got the 'knot' part wrong I might have assumed it to be a typo. However even the 'km' part was wrong. I am pretty sure they knew its km/h. No proof reading I guess.

ChandraS · Post by **ChandraS** » 11 Mar 2009 10:05

x-post from the India R&D thread.

Boy I am just glad that they didn't 'impoverish' the Pinaka.

Anujan wrote:
sunilUpa wrote:ARDE working on improvised version of Pinaka
Everyday TOI(let) touches new height
Improvised - adjective: Spoken, performed, or composed with little or no preparation or forethought

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Apr 2009 18:26

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 401335.cms

NEW DELHI: The country's only living five-star general, Marshal of the Air Force, Arjan Singh, turns a glorious 90 on Wednesday.

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 16 Apr 2009 22:10

Terrible. TOI has kept up its rep. Is it that diffi to differentiate between a 'general' and a 'marshal of the air force'. And then 'retired'. Good lord. Kipper and Sam must be turning in their graves. The military should again start conducting those familiarization courses for journos. Start with sepoy, airman and seaman-ii perhaps.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 16 Apr 2009 23:08

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/frenc ... er/447745/

Rafael = Israeli Armament Firm
Rafale = French aircraft

One would think they would have got that right by now.

pmund · Post by **pmund** » 16 Apr 2009 23:35

A rare one from exp

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 21 Apr 2009 05:29

Rafale ejection from MMRCA race confirmed

StratPost can confirm the scratching of Dassault’s horse in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) race, the Rafale.
Sources in the Ministry of Defense informed StratPost the aircraft was rejected for not being up to par as far as the technical requirements were concerned

Nitesh wrote:what is this now...............
India Rejects Dassault Aviation's Bid

when infact the truth was:

pankaj wrote:Indian Air Force says Rafale still in fighter competition
By Siva Govindasamy

(http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ition.html)

mgav · Post by **mgav** » 01 May 2009 18:33

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/apr/ ... e-dead.htm

India had first inducted Su-30MKIs into IAF service in 2002 and currently operates 60 of these air superiority 4.5 generation fighters in three of its 33.5 squadrons.

The SU-30MKI was inducted into the IAF in 1997. Also if i am not mistaken we currently have upwards of 80 Sukhoi in service don't we?

ChandraS · Post by **ChandraS** » 01 May 2009 19:07

^ The MKI was inducted in 2002 or so. 60 aircraft seems about right with the number of squadrons we have. The aircraft inducted in 1997 was the SU-30MK, the non-Indianized version. Once the MKI came online, it progressively replaced the MK's which were to be taken back to Russia. I don't know the status of those aircraft other than they were parked on the one side at Lohegaon AFB

mgav · Post by **mgav** » 01 May 2009 19:52

ChandraS wrote: 60 aircraft seems about right with the number of squadrons we have.

Accoring to the BR IAF squadrons and establishments page and the air force fleet page we have 5 Squadrons of the SU-30MKI and 80 estimated combat aircraft in service.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/Fleet.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/Squadrons.html

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 01 May 2009 21:53

The Indian media is usually correct in these matters. the other missing units 8 and 31 may still be under raising.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 02 May 2009 00:18

mgav wrote:http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/apr/ ... e-dead.htm

India has placed a fresh order for 40 more Sukhois with Russia [Images] in the wake of the then IAF chief Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi writing to the government in 2006 on the depleting strength of the IAF.

I'm not sure if they are talking about 40 more in fly away condition , otherwise we have an agreement for 230 MKI's.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 May 2009 09:15

cross post (could someone please indicate a link to the original?)

HariC wrote:The more I re-read the article, the more it leaves me fuming.

Wing commander P.S. Nara, the pilot who was killed, was reportedly not qualified to fly a Sukhoi, an IAF official told Hindustan Times.
An IAF source said Nara was a competent MiG-21 flyer. While both pilots had ejected, wing commander S.V. Munje, the other pilot, survived the crash. Nara was serving in the IAF’s Directorate of Air Staff Inspection (DASI).

Nara was seated behind Munje, who was flying the twin-cockpit fighter aircraft. There are different functions to be carried out from each cockpit. It is presumed Nara was manning the jet’s weapons system. “Regardless of who flies the aircraft, all crew members have to be qualified on the aircraft they are flying,” said the source.

“DASI inspectors make assessments of fighter jets at the tactical and operational level to ascertain if they are capable of meeting war-time requirements,” said Air Marshal (retired) P.S. Ahluwalia. “Ideally, an inspector should be qualified on the type of aircraft he is assessing. But inspectors are sometimes co-opted due to the shortage of pilots.”
well, the retired Air Marshal said Ideally - he never said Mandatory. Rahul Singh co-opts an anonymouse "IAF Official". Now without knowing any other parameters of the flight - what the mission task was, what exactly was Nara trying to evaluate the other pilot on, using a sensionalist headline "Wrong Pilot in Right Aircraft" is plain wrong and is right up there in DDM qualification criteria. Unless they prove that Nara was actually flying the aircraft, no amount of justification will suffice for this.

b]Regardless of who flies the aircraft, all crew members have to be qualified on the aircraft they are flying[/b]
Really? What about the USAF pilots who got joyrides in our MKis? or George Fernandes? or President Kalam? or that Civlian dude from Nat Geo? or the various Air Commodores or Air Marshals who take an occasional familiarity rides in these aircraft? What exactly is "qualified"? Qualifed to fly it? Qualified to land it? if Navigators who were posted as WSO to the MKIs are qualified to fly in it - why isnt a MiG-21 jock who is TACDE qualified and is in DASI not?

Yeah I understand Rahul Singh is merely quoting some IAF friend of his - but arent these the questions that he should be asking before trying to sensationalise the story?

dinakar · Post by **dinakar** » 02 May 2009 19:31

shiv wrote:cross post (could someone please indicate a link to the original?)

Sukhoi crash: wrong pilot in right plane

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 May 2009 09:08

Check the picture below (Mirage 2000 labelled "Mig 23.jpg)
http://www.amritapuri.org/images/2009/05/mig23.jpg

And the report:
http://www.amritapuri.org/3212/mig-23/

AMRITA UNIVERSITY ACQUIRES FIGHTER AIRCRAFT MIG-23
University acquires fighter aircraft MIG-23
(12 May '09)