somnath - thats the model for you
Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Thank you jimmbswu for bringing up valid and focussed points.
somnath - thats the model for you
somnath - thats the model for you
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
RayC,
One could say that Bofors (FH-77) and Grad (BM-21) qualify as "Heavy Arty", since 155mm is the largest caliber of Indian tube artillery, and rockets are generally a divisional and above asset.
These days, "light artillery" generally refers to artillery pieces of 2 tons and below, for transportability reasons. "Heavy artillery" would refer to everything above that.
You can say that the Army can execute the Cold Start as it stands, but is it optimally effective? I think that is the disconnect between you and somnath. You're saying that the Army understands the details of the Cold Start operational plan. However, somnath wants to know if the Army is missing any capabilities that will ensure the success of the oplan.
After all, you can execute the plan to a T, but still fail if the enemy gets to your battle position before you do. Just because there is an oplan does not mean that the plan will succeed.
One could say that Bofors (FH-77) and Grad (BM-21) qualify as "Heavy Arty", since 155mm is the largest caliber of Indian tube artillery, and rockets are generally a divisional and above asset.
These days, "light artillery" generally refers to artillery pieces of 2 tons and below, for transportability reasons. "Heavy artillery" would refer to everything above that.
You can say that the Army can execute the Cold Start as it stands, but is it optimally effective? I think that is the disconnect between you and somnath. You're saying that the Army understands the details of the Cold Start operational plan. However, somnath wants to know if the Army is missing any capabilities that will ensure the success of the oplan.
After all, you can execute the plan to a T, but still fail if the enemy gets to your battle position before you do. Just because there is an oplan does not mean that the plan will succeed.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Good post jimmbswu
The reserve bank questions are quite valid - but thats best left out to the army, mod , ministry of finance to hash them out. obviously if a turf war breakes out, the min of finance and RBI may squash whatever plans the army brings up.
The debate that was going on with somnath et al was not what an Army bank needed to survive, or what kind of numbers it needed, but the alleged intellectual and managerial deficiencies of the army to run and control such an organisation
That said, isnt it safe to assume that traditional banks and "Credit Unions" that are doing well today usually stuck to traditional methods of banking - i.e giving small loans locally to small time investors and housing mortage loans to long term established customers?
The reserve bank questions are quite valid - but thats best left out to the army, mod , ministry of finance to hash them out. obviously if a turf war breakes out, the min of finance and RBI may squash whatever plans the army brings up.
The debate that was going on with somnath et al was not what an Army bank needed to survive, or what kind of numbers it needed, but the alleged intellectual and managerial deficiencies of the army to run and control such an organisation
That said, isnt it safe to assume that traditional banks and "Credit Unions" that are doing well today usually stuck to traditional methods of banking - i.e giving small loans locally to small time investors and housing mortage loans to long term established customers?
Housing loans, Auto loans, Personal loans - this is where having a ready made 1.2 million customer base has its advantage. (more if you add the retired soldiers population) Add to that housing projects from AWHO and Auto sales through CSDs can route their business through the institution - it might make a difference. There is a whole lot of commerce that can happen via the bank - CSD to suppliers and vice versa. The service can be extended to ex-servicemen who are in reciept of pensions . Regimental Associations and Officers associations can be included in these gamut. ex-servicemen who want business loans can be helped too.2nd, Who should the "Army Credit Union" loan money to? A bank does not make money simply by sitting on the deposits. It has to make loans to somebody.
it probably wont - but probably the aim would be to provide a better service to the jawan than the current banking systems if they are failing in that aspect. Savings accounts and CDs fetch 5-10% in India nowadays. Housing Loans are around 13-14% interest rate Auto loans even more. I would hope a modestly run bank would be able to meet the margins. Again not enough to make a killing but enough to keep it afloat and running.the bank will not make a lot of money.
The RBI does that for all Indian banks.Does India have a guarantee on saving deposits, similar to the American FDIC?
They have to make a start somewhere.According to RayC, Indian officers and soldiers don't have much of a savings account, so if that's all the Army Bank can draw on [plus the regimental mess funds], that is not a whole lot of capital there. The Army Bank would be very limited in what it can do and offer.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
HariC
I believe the insurance coverage is only to 1 lakh.
I believe the insurance coverage is only to 1 lakh.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
^^ Good post by jimmbswu
Let me emphasize/clarify a few points.
(1) The Central Bank does not need Government funds for its operations. If need be, it is allowed to 'create' money upto some predetermined maximum level for lending to other banks through its repo operations. In India, the RBI acts as the banker to the Central and State governments, but this role is not intrinsic to its fundamental role as a monetary authority for the country. The role of banker to the government can also be given to some other bank.
Therefore, as a Central Banker the RBI shouldn't have major problems if this business is taken away from them. They would not collapse. Of course, they do want to keep government business and will resist it to some extent.
What is more troublesome is the possibility of every ministry/department wanting to carve out their own bank and taking the funds promised to them in the Budget with them to such bank. Owning or operating a bank is a specialized task and most government departments are not capable of doing so. Can they create such capability? Yes, but then why dilute their focus from their core job.
(2) It is erroneous to suppose that once the budget is passed by the Parliament, the monies sanctioned to various departments are immediately available, and can be withdrawn or used instantly. The budget has two parts - Receipts and Expenditure. The Budget is for twelve months. The receipts keep coming in throughout the financial year, and disproportionately so in the last quarter and the last month (March). From a financial resources management point of view, the expenditure flow should nearly match the receipt flow. If there are periods where the expenditure is more than the receipts then the government has to take short term loans from the market or an overdraft from RBI to finance the excess expenditure. This loan or overdraft has a cost.
If any department withdraws money and puts it in another bank, it is deemed an 'expenditure' by the RBI. The government's account books are debited by the corresponding figure. If the credit side shows low fund availability then an overdraft is provided at some cost.
Therefore, there is absolutely no question of any department walking away from the RBI (or any bank responsible for government accounts) with the budgeted amount on April 1.
(3) About cooperative banks: almost none of them will be able to survive without hefty support from the government. From a public policy perspective, agricultural cooperative banks are very useful in providing short term crop loans to agriculturists, for supporting the public distribution system, and for providing banking facilities in rural regions where commercial banks refrain from opening branches. Urban Cooperative Banks have less of a public goods role. What public goods role will Army cooperative bank have?
Further, cooperative banks are mired in political problems. They are subject to NABARD refinancing norms, and the RBI and the government are gradually (and rightly so) increasing the regulatory framework applicable to these banks.
I know some of the problems with these institutions. I was once a Chairperson of one such bank.
Let me emphasize/clarify a few points.
(1) The Central Bank does not need Government funds for its operations. If need be, it is allowed to 'create' money upto some predetermined maximum level for lending to other banks through its repo operations. In India, the RBI acts as the banker to the Central and State governments, but this role is not intrinsic to its fundamental role as a monetary authority for the country. The role of banker to the government can also be given to some other bank.
Therefore, as a Central Banker the RBI shouldn't have major problems if this business is taken away from them. They would not collapse. Of course, they do want to keep government business and will resist it to some extent.
What is more troublesome is the possibility of every ministry/department wanting to carve out their own bank and taking the funds promised to them in the Budget with them to such bank. Owning or operating a bank is a specialized task and most government departments are not capable of doing so. Can they create such capability? Yes, but then why dilute their focus from their core job.
(2) It is erroneous to suppose that once the budget is passed by the Parliament, the monies sanctioned to various departments are immediately available, and can be withdrawn or used instantly. The budget has two parts - Receipts and Expenditure. The Budget is for twelve months. The receipts keep coming in throughout the financial year, and disproportionately so in the last quarter and the last month (March). From a financial resources management point of view, the expenditure flow should nearly match the receipt flow. If there are periods where the expenditure is more than the receipts then the government has to take short term loans from the market or an overdraft from RBI to finance the excess expenditure. This loan or overdraft has a cost.
If any department withdraws money and puts it in another bank, it is deemed an 'expenditure' by the RBI. The government's account books are debited by the corresponding figure. If the credit side shows low fund availability then an overdraft is provided at some cost.
Therefore, there is absolutely no question of any department walking away from the RBI (or any bank responsible for government accounts) with the budgeted amount on April 1.
(3) About cooperative banks: almost none of them will be able to survive without hefty support from the government. From a public policy perspective, agricultural cooperative banks are very useful in providing short term crop loans to agriculturists, for supporting the public distribution system, and for providing banking facilities in rural regions where commercial banks refrain from opening branches. Urban Cooperative Banks have less of a public goods role. What public goods role will Army cooperative bank have?
Further, cooperative banks are mired in political problems. They are subject to NABARD refinancing norms, and the RBI and the government are gradually (and rightly so) increasing the regulatory framework applicable to these banks.
I know some of the problems with these institutions. I was once a Chairperson of one such bank.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Mohan
what sort of support do cooperatives receive to survive?
what sort of support do cooperatives receive to survive?
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
The cooperative banks and societies often get direct budgetary support in terms of purchase of share capital. Programmatic support is provided for specific activities (example for Public Distribution System). Refinance support at low rates is provided by NABARD and other government institutions for financing specific loan projects. Some state government departments (for example Agriculture or Rural Development) temporarily park their funds (say obtained under the national watershed program from GoI) with cooperative banks.
Recommendations of VIKHE PATIL COMMITTEE ON REVITALISATION SUPPORT TO THE COOPERATIVE CREDIT STRUCTURE
National Federation of State Cooperative Banks Ltd. (NAFSCOB)'s website gives an idea of the type of issues they give priority to. Many points indicate the level of support for Cooperative banks. Examples:
Recommendations of VIKHE PATIL COMMITTEE ON REVITALISATION SUPPORT TO THE COOPERATIVE CREDIT STRUCTURE
National Federation of State Cooperative Banks Ltd. (NAFSCOB)'s website gives an idea of the type of issues they give priority to. Many points indicate the level of support for Cooperative banks. Examples:
3. Persuaded Government of India to adopt favourable policy regarding contribution to the agricultural credit stablilisation fund of the member banks.
4. Successfully persuaded Government of India to abolish interest tax on the earnings of the cooperative banks.
5. Made successfully efforts in extending the provision of section-13 of the Income-Tax Act 1961 to cooperative banks.
12. Has been taking up with the Hon'ble Union Finance Minister important policy and operational issues before the presentation of Budget every year.
· Took up the following important issues with the concerned authorities, including the Government of India.
a)Constitution of Agricultural Credit Relief Fund.
b)Solution to the problems emerging from Debt Relief Scheme.
c)Impact of Debt Relief measures on recoveries
d)Concessions in the norms of financing by NABARD.
e) Constitution of a special Sub-Committee to study in depth the immediate and long term aspects of loan waiver measures with a view to presenting memorandum on the subject to Government of India.
26. Succeeded in getting exemption for the National Federation of State Cooperative Banks from payment of Income Tax.
Last edited by Mohan G on 12 Feb 2009 07:07, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
I had posted this earlier - but in case people missed out (obviously they did):
This is just capital required to service the balance sheet - And this is not even taking into account capital required for initial real estate costs, tech, people, yada yada yada....If someone thinks runnign a credit union is the same as runnign a bank...well..For those wanting to know similar experiences, most "normal" countries dont open Army Banks, or for that matter any commercial enterprise by the services...Turkey, I mentioned before, is now divesting off its Army Banks as a part of its effort to become eligible for EU...
HariC, if runnign a "modest" bank was so easy..First Savings accounts do not pay 5-10% - they pay 3.5% on EOP (end of period) balances - thats regulated. Bulk of the balance sheet is made up of out of "time" deposits, or fixed deposits where pricing is "free" and each bank tries to give a better rate. Even rupee of deposit taken (TXN or time) has 24% compulsarily deployed as SLR (in g-secs) and 5% in CRR (with RBI)..CRR pays next to nothing, and SLR books typically yield below cost of funds (deposits) for most banks (unless one has a roaring bull run in G-secs)....So the rest of the assets on the balance sheet has to yield much more than the avg cost of deposits to even break even...the best run banks in India enjoy Net Interest Margins (spread of asset yields over cost of funds) of a little over 3% (the very best is HDFC Bank @ about 4-5%, and foreign banks tend to do better, but they are a clear outlier) - the avg is about 2-3%..Nowhere close to assumptions of 5-10% for deposits and 13-14% for housing loans kind of calculations show...
MohanG, while RBI has been traditionally the banker to the govt, that role has been steadily wound down over the years. Many govt departments use commercial banks now for a lot of their operations - primarily SBI or one of the PSU outfits..The RBI's primary role is in terms of determining and executing monetary policy and regulating banks..there is in fact some discussion now that a different setup within the MoF would take up the job of govt debt raising, which traditionally RBI has done..
Just to summarise, there were three points in the discussion, and their "feedback" have been:
Army running a bank - Gen Joshi knows best, Army has money in its salary/pensions account - shouldnt be a problem..after all we run AWHO!
Cold start - its all done and dusted..Whatever apprehensions people might have on the basis of published data - well, you dont know what's behind the curtain!
SSC along with "skills matching" as a solution to officer shortage - every officer should be general staff material, and the moment pay parity is restored, we would have the 13k officer shortage automatically filled up!!
the most distasteful aspect of this has been this constant allusion to flimsy family connections, with no reference to context, and quite OT references to things like Singapore...Anyway, my last post on this..
So 2500 crores of capital only in one year..Will it come out of compulsary contribution from personnel? so something like a "compulsary stock option on the Army Bank"!!! thats pretty much illegal to start with - compulsary stock options...and then, how will they be compensated, given that this bank is not likely to be listed? and if it is listed for arguments sake, do 90% of the Army (the ORs) have any clue on how stock options work?So The Army would "own" the bank? From where would the capital come from? Presumably the Army budget..Lets see how the numbers work out.About Salaries and pensions in a year would be about 50k croes (14k as pension and a conservative estimate of 36k as salaries)..So this Army Bank would (at the end of the first year), have a balance sheet of 25k crores (assuming half the money is left in the bank)...Against this "liability", the Army would create assets made up of "soft loans" to servicemen..that would be mostly unsecured loans, requiring at least 100% risk weightage (it should be higher, but lets leave it at that)..So 25k crores of assets - translates to 2,500 crores of Tier I capital..
and this only in one year - 2500 crores of capital. As time goes by, the size of the bank will keep on going up, requiring even more capital periodically, over and above any "retained" profits out of the operation...Is this how the defence budget is best utlised?
This is just capital required to service the balance sheet - And this is not even taking into account capital required for initial real estate costs, tech, people, yada yada yada....If someone thinks runnign a credit union is the same as runnign a bank...well..For those wanting to know similar experiences, most "normal" countries dont open Army Banks, or for that matter any commercial enterprise by the services...Turkey, I mentioned before, is now divesting off its Army Banks as a part of its effort to become eligible for EU...
HariC, if runnign a "modest" bank was so easy..First Savings accounts do not pay 5-10% - they pay 3.5% on EOP (end of period) balances - thats regulated. Bulk of the balance sheet is made up of out of "time" deposits, or fixed deposits where pricing is "free" and each bank tries to give a better rate. Even rupee of deposit taken (TXN or time) has 24% compulsarily deployed as SLR (in g-secs) and 5% in CRR (with RBI)..CRR pays next to nothing, and SLR books typically yield below cost of funds (deposits) for most banks (unless one has a roaring bull run in G-secs)....So the rest of the assets on the balance sheet has to yield much more than the avg cost of deposits to even break even...the best run banks in India enjoy Net Interest Margins (spread of asset yields over cost of funds) of a little over 3% (the very best is HDFC Bank @ about 4-5%, and foreign banks tend to do better, but they are a clear outlier) - the avg is about 2-3%..Nowhere close to assumptions of 5-10% for deposits and 13-14% for housing loans kind of calculations show...
MohanG, while RBI has been traditionally the banker to the govt, that role has been steadily wound down over the years. Many govt departments use commercial banks now for a lot of their operations - primarily SBI or one of the PSU outfits..The RBI's primary role is in terms of determining and executing monetary policy and regulating banks..there is in fact some discussion now that a different setup within the MoF would take up the job of govt debt raising, which traditionally RBI has done..
Just to summarise, there were three points in the discussion, and their "feedback" have been:
Army running a bank - Gen Joshi knows best, Army has money in its salary/pensions account - shouldnt be a problem..after all we run AWHO!
Cold start - its all done and dusted..Whatever apprehensions people might have on the basis of published data - well, you dont know what's behind the curtain!
SSC along with "skills matching" as a solution to officer shortage - every officer should be general staff material, and the moment pay parity is restored, we would have the 13k officer shortage automatically filled up!!
the most distasteful aspect of this has been this constant allusion to flimsy family connections, with no reference to context, and quite OT references to things like Singapore...Anyway, my last post on this..
Last edited by somnath on 12 Feb 2009 09:24, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
What are the reasons for officer shortage in IN and IAF? Are they not different from the Army?
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
We are not talking about funds that are earmarked for defence equipment purchase. There are many funds that the govt allots like ATG, ETG and so on. And these funds go into crores. Add the pay and pension and other personal accounts of dependants. These are currently with nationalised banks. Therefore, one wonders how it will lead to the collapse of the Reserve Bank.
The Army Bank, would be like any other nationalised bank. Furtherm the Army is also a part of the Govt.
Is it sarcasm to infer that loans will be given at 0%? I think it is a daft suggestion.
The dependants of servicemen and many ex servicemen run businesses, gas agencies and even petrol pumps.
For buying houses, there already the AWHO and they give loans at lower interest than the market or so I learn.
It is incorrect to surmise that the Army personnel would park a sum only for loans and park most of their money/ saving in ‘normal’ banks. It must be understood that the problems faced currently with ‘normal’ banks would not be there since the Army Bank would be in house and the problems expeditiously addressed, and redressed since they would be responsible to the Army and its requirements. For instance, today, soldiers can make a family allotment for every month and that money is sent directly to the family and the accounts adjusted.
The scams of the US Banking system are a different kettle of fish and there are many reasons for the same. There was no control over who was given the loan and they were not accountable to anyone. The Army personnel are accountable to the Army and the rules are quite stringent for those who break the rules!
The Army Bank, would be like any other nationalised bank. Furtherm the Army is also a part of the Govt.
Is it sarcasm to infer that loans will be given at 0%? I think it is a daft suggestion.
The dependants of servicemen and many ex servicemen run businesses, gas agencies and even petrol pumps.
For buying houses, there already the AWHO and they give loans at lower interest than the market or so I learn.
It is incorrect to surmise that the Army personnel would park a sum only for loans and park most of their money/ saving in ‘normal’ banks. It must be understood that the problems faced currently with ‘normal’ banks would not be there since the Army Bank would be in house and the problems expeditiously addressed, and redressed since they would be responsible to the Army and its requirements. For instance, today, soldiers can make a family allotment for every month and that money is sent directly to the family and the accounts adjusted.
The scams of the US Banking system are a different kettle of fish and there are many reasons for the same. There was no control over who was given the loan and they were not accountable to anyone. The Army personnel are accountable to the Army and the rules are quite stringent for those who break the rules!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
It is not what one can say and use terms loosely on one's desire.jimmbswu wrote:RayC,
One could say that Bofors (FH-77) and Grad (BM-21) qualify as "Heavy Arty", since 155mm is the largest caliber of Indian tube artillery, and rockets are generally a divisional and above asset.
These days, "light artillery" generally refers to artillery pieces of 2 tons and below, for transportability reasons. "Heavy artillery" would refer to everything above that.
You can say that the Army can execute the Cold Start as it stands, but is it optimally effective? I think that is the disconnect between you and somnath. You're saying that the Army understands the details of the Cold Start operational plan. However, somnath wants to know if the Army is missing any capabilities that will ensure the success of the oplan.
After all, you can execute the plan to a T, but still fail if the enemy gets to your battle position before you do. Just because there is an oplan does not mean that the plan will succeed.
Bofors are not heavy artillery nor are rockets.
For instance, a MMG is a heavy weapon, but it still comes under the nomenclature "Small Arms".
Can Cold Start be effectively used? It is like asking if the "Clean Bomb" be able to do the task effectively. It has been detonated and its effect noted and it is believed that it will deliver when used in a war.
Cold Start has been practised on ground and there has been no war so far to apply it on the ground. It is not an Op Plan or a theory alone.
Cold Start is the very reason to ensure that the enemy does not have the initiative, which you term as 'but still fail if the enemy gets to your battle position before you do'.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
True, but in respect of government accounts, SBI or any other bank basically acts as an agent of RBI. The main accounts are maintained by the RBI, and the agents send their daily reports to RBI. RBI does not have enough number of branches so it has to use other banks as agents.Somnath wrote:MohanG, while RBI has been traditionally the banker to the govt, that role has been steadily wound down over the years. Many govt departments use commercial banks now for a lot of their operations - primarily SBI or one of the PSU outfits..The RBI's primary role is in terms of determining and executing monetary policy and regulating banks..there is in fact some discussion now that a different setup within the MoF would take up the job of govt debt raising, which traditionally RBI has done..
I think Debt Office is another issue, separate from the maintenance of government accounts. The new debt management office is envisaged for the Central Government, and I haven't seen discussion of government accounts (especially State Government accounts) being moved away from RBI.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Mohan G,
That is true, but it effectively means that the "monies" are being managed on the balance sheets of the respective banks, not of RBI..
The Debt Office, if and when it takes off, should take over the fund raisining for state governments - economies of scope!
That is true, but it effectively means that the "monies" are being managed on the balance sheets of the respective banks, not of RBI..
The Debt Office, if and when it takes off, should take over the fund raisining for state governments - economies of scope!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
^ About 'monies' being on the balance sheets of agent banks: I think the government receipts and expenses are reconciled daily (nowadays done over wire, if possible). So the excess daily receipts (receipt for the day - expenditure for the day) are parked with the agent for probably a day or two only. Certainly not a great benefit for the agent bank (as compared to the hypothetical situation where the entire accounts are placed with them).
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Mohan G, given the volume of flows - even a 1/2 day float is not bad for any bank...Especially this is pretty much "free money" as far as the bank is concerned..
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Any float is better than nothing, but the banks also need to process huge number of low face value documents (such as tax challans of some types, court fees, land revenue challans, government scholarships for SC/ST/OBC kids).
That said, PSU banks do want to become RBI agents. That gives them enormous credibility, reputation, and some additional business.
That said, PSU banks do want to become RBI agents. That gives them enormous credibility, reputation, and some additional business.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
jimmbswu,
The first bank in India, though conservative, was established in 1786. From 1786 till today, the journey of Indian Banking System can be segregated into three distinct phases. They are as mentioned below:
* Early phase from 1786 to 1969 of Indian Banks
* Nationalisation of Indian Banks and up to 1991 prior to Indian banking sector Reforms.
* New phase of Indian Banking System with the advent of Indian Financial & Banking Sector Reforms after 1991.
While the system was sound, many banks have failed.
Does it means that the concept of banking is a failure and likewise, the Cold Start is doomed? Cold Start has been applied on ground, but is it perfect? It will depend on the acumen of the one who is directing the concept and it in no way is an indication that it will not work. It is the man and not the concept that makes things work.
The Ops of War has been practised and found fine. Yet, wars have been won or lost!
Therefore, let us not get too worried about the Doomdsday soothsayers. As Obama said (since you like American examples), it is better to act, than not act!
The first bank in India, though conservative, was established in 1786. From 1786 till today, the journey of Indian Banking System can be segregated into three distinct phases. They are as mentioned below:
* Early phase from 1786 to 1969 of Indian Banks
* Nationalisation of Indian Banks and up to 1991 prior to Indian banking sector Reforms.
* New phase of Indian Banking System with the advent of Indian Financial & Banking Sector Reforms after 1991.
While the system was sound, many banks have failed.
Does it means that the concept of banking is a failure and likewise, the Cold Start is doomed? Cold Start has been applied on ground, but is it perfect? It will depend on the acumen of the one who is directing the concept and it in no way is an indication that it will not work. It is the man and not the concept that makes things work.
The Ops of War has been practised and found fine. Yet, wars have been won or lost!
Therefore, let us not get too worried about the Doomdsday soothsayers. As Obama said (since you like American examples), it is better to act, than not act!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
I am no banker, but I would like to think that what Hari says is right. He was a Chairperson of a Bank. Should we disbelieve that he is not aware of banking in the Indian environment and rules?
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Err that was Mohan G who was Chairperson of a bank.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
RayC wrote:Hari says is right. He was a Chairperson of a Bank
Hallelujahsomnath wrote:my last post on this..
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Frankly, not withstanding what I may say, Somnath's posts are just the type I loved while in service and even now.HariC wrote:RayC wrote:Hari says is right. He was a Chairperson of a Bank
Hallelujahsomnath wrote:my last post on this..
If everyone agrees, one does not see the drawbacks and the infirmities.
One must not be proud. one must realise one is human and one is not perfect. Inputs from all are so essential to rid the system of the kinks.
People like Saomnath are a help!
God Bless them!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
There are a few separate points I'm addressing:
1. Withdrawing Army budget from Reserve Bank: Sorry, RayC, your hopefulness notwithstanding, my bureaucratic instinct says that is not going to happen. First off, it directly decreases RBI's prestige. Secondly, it sets a bad precedent for all of the other ministries, who will want a bank of their own that they can take bribes from. Thirdly, it will affect RBI's cashflow. So even though we're not talking about equipment acquisition side of the budget, even though soldiers' pay belongs to the soldiers anyway, I don't think RBI will roll over.
Of course, if the Army is gifted with an expert politician for a chief, then this may yet happen. Otherwise, you will have to depend on soldiers, who you said do not have a big bank account because they have to live up to the image. And I'm not sure how much of an impact the regimental mess funds will make on the bank either, unless you have a lot of retired officers making big bucks with companies like Bofor and stuff.
2. Officer ethics of starting a bank: For active duty officers, starting up a bank like this presents significant moral quandaries. Is it right for the Army Chief to order everyone to participate in the bank? Last I heard, India is still a democracy with the nominal freedom to choose a bank. Such an order is definitely illegal in the US, probably India as well.
If he can't give the order, can the Army Chief still start the bank on his own, with some friends and fellow generals? That presents significant conflict of interest and anti-competition/monopoly issues. Even if the Chief never gives the order to participate, all officers will join just to please the general. Those who do not will be singled out by their commanders for not playing by the rules. The banks who held the former deposits will scream bloody murder as well, because they cannot compete for soldiers' bank account against the general.
Maybe something like this is okay in India. I don't know since I'm not familiar with your ethics curriculum. Ethically, it is almost equivalent to Bofor hiring a cousin of the Chief as an engineer, as a hypothetical example. Wouldn't the next generation artillery selection team feel obligated to pick Bofor over Denel simply because Bofor has that family connection to the Army chief?
This is why in the US, for example, all such banks are started by RETIRED officers and civilians. For example, the USAA, a bank for soldiers and dependents only, was started by a bunch of retired officers after WW2 to do car insurance. The Pentagon Federal Credit Union was started by the civilian employees at the Pentagon, as well as local businesses, for local use. The various credit unions in the US are all local activities servicing the local population.
The USAA is probably the best model for an Army Bank. They do not have a physical location, everything is done by phone and mail/internet. If you want to use an ATM, you just use some other bank's, and it's free.
The question here is not that there is a need for such a bank. The most important question is where the start up fund will come from. Especially since RayC has repeatedly impressed upon us the poverty of retired officers.
Endnote: RayC, I did not say that you would have a problem if you only lend to soldiers and dependents. I said you may have a credit risk if you loaned to the market in general.
1. Withdrawing Army budget from Reserve Bank: Sorry, RayC, your hopefulness notwithstanding, my bureaucratic instinct says that is not going to happen. First off, it directly decreases RBI's prestige. Secondly, it sets a bad precedent for all of the other ministries, who will want a bank of their own that they can take bribes from. Thirdly, it will affect RBI's cashflow. So even though we're not talking about equipment acquisition side of the budget, even though soldiers' pay belongs to the soldiers anyway, I don't think RBI will roll over.
Of course, if the Army is gifted with an expert politician for a chief, then this may yet happen. Otherwise, you will have to depend on soldiers, who you said do not have a big bank account because they have to live up to the image. And I'm not sure how much of an impact the regimental mess funds will make on the bank either, unless you have a lot of retired officers making big bucks with companies like Bofor and stuff.
2. Officer ethics of starting a bank: For active duty officers, starting up a bank like this presents significant moral quandaries. Is it right for the Army Chief to order everyone to participate in the bank? Last I heard, India is still a democracy with the nominal freedom to choose a bank. Such an order is definitely illegal in the US, probably India as well.
If he can't give the order, can the Army Chief still start the bank on his own, with some friends and fellow generals? That presents significant conflict of interest and anti-competition/monopoly issues. Even if the Chief never gives the order to participate, all officers will join just to please the general. Those who do not will be singled out by their commanders for not playing by the rules. The banks who held the former deposits will scream bloody murder as well, because they cannot compete for soldiers' bank account against the general.
Maybe something like this is okay in India. I don't know since I'm not familiar with your ethics curriculum. Ethically, it is almost equivalent to Bofor hiring a cousin of the Chief as an engineer, as a hypothetical example. Wouldn't the next generation artillery selection team feel obligated to pick Bofor over Denel simply because Bofor has that family connection to the Army chief?
This is why in the US, for example, all such banks are started by RETIRED officers and civilians. For example, the USAA, a bank for soldiers and dependents only, was started by a bunch of retired officers after WW2 to do car insurance. The Pentagon Federal Credit Union was started by the civilian employees at the Pentagon, as well as local businesses, for local use. The various credit unions in the US are all local activities servicing the local population.
The USAA is probably the best model for an Army Bank. They do not have a physical location, everything is done by phone and mail/internet. If you want to use an ATM, you just use some other bank's, and it's free.
The question here is not that there is a need for such a bank. The most important question is where the start up fund will come from. Especially since RayC has repeatedly impressed upon us the poverty of retired officers.
Endnote: RayC, I did not say that you would have a problem if you only lend to soldiers and dependents. I said you may have a credit risk if you loaned to the market in general.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
I meant to add that, if it was the defense minister or the parliament that starts the bank, that would be okay, ethically speaking. The issue here is the command authority that the general has that causes the conflict of interest.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
jimmbsw
First of all, the funds are not just regimental and mess funds. There is the ATG, ETG, Imprest, apart from the pay and pensions etc. The sum is thus huge and it runs in crores! It is always lamented by those who comment that the pay and pension takes the chunk of the defence budget!
Obviously, now one can't suitably modify the argument, or can one?
The Army pensioners are not "poverty stricken" as you wish to attribute it to me. Some cannot maintain the lifestyle that they used to. Just about that. Now is that what in your context feel is poverty? And today, with so many schemes available in the market to ensure that a person does not lose the lifestyle they are used to, the current generation of army personnel are investing wisely.
The Army Bank was not to be staffed by officers of the Indian Army, but by financial experts and bank men on the payroll of the Bank.
I would not know if retired army officers are making big bucks, but since you raise it, maybe you could enlighten us.
Is it ethically wrong to have a Opposition politician as a father for an Army officer? If so, it would be ethically wrong for a relation of an army officer to work for a multinational! It would then mean that they would all have to work in the government! Odd to say the least.
If a Bank is started, no one has to be ordered to join it. They will themselves join since it would be beneficial to them as it will ensure that they are not hassled by the current system as it would be their own bank and hence easier to interact with and get responses.
Starting an Army bank is not an old boy affair where the Chief gangs up with fellow Generals, as you so quaintly put it.
The Army has started a scheme called the ECHS where pensioners, on a financial contribution, are guaranteed medical facilities for life. No one ordered them to join and yet 100% voluntarily joined!! One must understand one does not have to goad one to join something that benefits them.
Now compare the Indian Army's Health scheme for pensioners to what is in the USA!
http://www.publicintegrity.org/investig ... _veterans/
As far as the credit risk goes, one wonders how the AWHO is functioning so efficiently? And this scheme was functional well before the current Home Loans popularity!
What so American about e banking and ATMs? In India even the panwallah is capable of electronically control his finance. The days of the Rajas and snake charmers were over many moons ago, in case you did not know.
Ever man Jack in India has a mobile phone! Imagine that! The illiterate and unwashed masses of India who have not seen the wonders of the USA are using a phone and that too a mobile/ cell phone! And silly they - they have no clue that it can cause cancer and have not read the wondrous works on the subject in the US!
Please understand that while the US is a great country, it does not mean that we are anywhere less than them or handicapped!
BTW, I am yet to have the link where you said that there are only Heavy Regiments these days. I sure wish to update myself since that was something real new to me. Odd that we have Field and Medium Regiment only and the Indian Army is so outdated and ancient that they do not know this - new revelation! And to believe that the current Army Chief is an Artillery boy!
First of all, the funds are not just regimental and mess funds. There is the ATG, ETG, Imprest, apart from the pay and pensions etc. The sum is thus huge and it runs in crores! It is always lamented by those who comment that the pay and pension takes the chunk of the defence budget!
Obviously, now one can't suitably modify the argument, or can one?
The Army pensioners are not "poverty stricken" as you wish to attribute it to me. Some cannot maintain the lifestyle that they used to. Just about that. Now is that what in your context feel is poverty? And today, with so many schemes available in the market to ensure that a person does not lose the lifestyle they are used to, the current generation of army personnel are investing wisely.
The Army Bank was not to be staffed by officers of the Indian Army, but by financial experts and bank men on the payroll of the Bank.
I would not know if retired army officers are making big bucks, but since you raise it, maybe you could enlighten us.
Is it ethically wrong to have a Opposition politician as a father for an Army officer? If so, it would be ethically wrong for a relation of an army officer to work for a multinational! It would then mean that they would all have to work in the government! Odd to say the least.
If a Bank is started, no one has to be ordered to join it. They will themselves join since it would be beneficial to them as it will ensure that they are not hassled by the current system as it would be their own bank and hence easier to interact with and get responses.
Starting an Army bank is not an old boy affair where the Chief gangs up with fellow Generals, as you so quaintly put it.
The Army has started a scheme called the ECHS where pensioners, on a financial contribution, are guaranteed medical facilities for life. No one ordered them to join and yet 100% voluntarily joined!! One must understand one does not have to goad one to join something that benefits them.
Now compare the Indian Army's Health scheme for pensioners to what is in the USA!
http://www.publicintegrity.org/investig ... _veterans/
As far as the credit risk goes, one wonders how the AWHO is functioning so efficiently? And this scheme was functional well before the current Home Loans popularity!
What so American about e banking and ATMs? In India even the panwallah is capable of electronically control his finance. The days of the Rajas and snake charmers were over many moons ago, in case you did not know.
Ever man Jack in India has a mobile phone! Imagine that! The illiterate and unwashed masses of India who have not seen the wonders of the USA are using a phone and that too a mobile/ cell phone! And silly they - they have no clue that it can cause cancer and have not read the wondrous works on the subject in the US!
Please understand that while the US is a great country, it does not mean that we are anywhere less than them or handicapped!
BTW, I am yet to have the link where you said that there are only Heavy Regiments these days. I sure wish to update myself since that was something real new to me. Odd that we have Field and Medium Regiment only and the Indian Army is so outdated and ancient that they do not know this - new revelation! And to believe that the current Army Chief is an Artillery boy!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
I would rather not answer the flippant comments made, except for the issue of ''skill matching''.
These jargon/ gobbledygooks require understanding how the Army functions, before one uses them.
Every year the 'skill matching' is automatically 'thrown up' by the results of the innumerable courses a person does and the Annual appraisal of the Commanding Officer and his superiors (three levels up). This is to ensure that there is a balanced appraisal and no vindictiveness. This process thus ensures a match of one's skill.
There is the open examination for Staff College, which is actually a Command and Staff exam. This again separates the wheat from the chaff, so to say.
Then there is the Higher Command course, which is evaluated on the past records of performance and more so, the Command performance.
Then there is the NDC (National Defence College) for senior officers. That ensures further skill matching.
So, why should anyone who joins the IA, in any entry scheme be deprived of showing their talent and benefit the nation?
As far as I am concerned, there is too many divisions in this country, caste, community, religion, class etc etc. Why add to it? Let there be equality and let the best surface!
So, why have a class of officers who know that they will not have the avenue to rise? It will kill initiative and encourage a babu culture.
If one has nothing to look forward to, then obviously they will take it easy and look busy!
These jargon/ gobbledygooks require understanding how the Army functions, before one uses them.
Every year the 'skill matching' is automatically 'thrown up' by the results of the innumerable courses a person does and the Annual appraisal of the Commanding Officer and his superiors (three levels up). This is to ensure that there is a balanced appraisal and no vindictiveness. This process thus ensures a match of one's skill.
There is the open examination for Staff College, which is actually a Command and Staff exam. This again separates the wheat from the chaff, so to say.
Then there is the Higher Command course, which is evaluated on the past records of performance and more so, the Command performance.
Then there is the NDC (National Defence College) for senior officers. That ensures further skill matching.
So, why should anyone who joins the IA, in any entry scheme be deprived of showing their talent and benefit the nation?
As far as I am concerned, there is too many divisions in this country, caste, community, religion, class etc etc. Why add to it? Let there be equality and let the best surface!
So, why have a class of officers who know that they will not have the avenue to rise? It will kill initiative and encourage a babu culture.
If one has nothing to look forward to, then obviously they will take it easy and look busy!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Interesting news..
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/unpre ... es/427901/
Pasting in full to highlight a couple of points...
For those who think pay parity is the only issue at hand...And the thought process that insists on the entire officer corps being at the "same" quality level, regardless of what most of their roles will pan out to be..
the real issues are relating to 1) suitable organisational structure, 2) suitable selection systems and 3) better compensatin systems. Part of the last can surely be a discussion on pay parity, but to make that "be all and end all" of the problem is not addressign the issue...
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/unpre ... es/427901/
Pasting in full to highlight a couple of points...
New Delhi: A "perturbed" Parliamentary Committee has asked the Defence Ministry to immediately work out a plan to correct the "unprecedented" shortage of officers in the armed forces which has reached 23.8, 16.7 and 12.1 per cent in army, navy and air force respectively.
The Standing Committee on Defence said "the Defence Ministry should go into the entire gamut of the issue (shortage of officers) in all the three services and urgently formulate a plan of action for implementation in a time bound manner."
In a report highlighting the deficiencies and shortcomings in manpower planning and human resource management in the defence forces, the committee said it had found that the shortage of officers stood at 23.8, 16.7 and 12.1 per cent in army, navy and air force respectively.
After the authorised strength of officers in the three forces was increased by 26 per cent, the present level of unfilled vacancies had reached an "unprecedented" level, the report, which was tabled on Tuesday, said.
While making several recommendations, the committee said it was "perturbed" to know that all the efforts of the Defence Ministry to resolve the issue, especially those in the last two decades, have failed.
The committee also rejected the Defence Ministry's plea that youth accorded "low priority" to a military career and said the "issue of shortage of officers continues to be viewed in isolation without properly appreciating the complexities of the various aspects of manpower planning and human resource management."
The committee said that with growing security challenges, every Ministry should contribute its share in supporting the defence services.
Saying that some of the recruitment procedures for officers in the armed forces were based on antiquated practices, the committee said "format of SSB tests has not undergone any major change in the last three decades".
The Committee found out that the present selection system was examined by a Chiefs of Staff appointed committee which found the "procedures for selection extremely rigorous."
It recommended that an exhaustive review of the selection procedures through SSBs be undertaken and the latest selection techniques be put in place.
It also asked the Defence Ministry to ensure that candidates with rural backgrounds are not be subjected to language barriers while assessing them during selections.
The committee asked the Ministry to ensure that "fair and transparent" systems are put in place for promotion of officers in the forces.
For those who think pay parity is the only issue at hand...And the thought process that insists on the entire officer corps being at the "same" quality level, regardless of what most of their roles will pan out to be..
the real issues are relating to 1) suitable organisational structure, 2) suitable selection systems and 3) better compensatin systems. Part of the last can surely be a discussion on pay parity, but to make that "be all and end all" of the problem is not addressign the issue...
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
They want a magic wand, without giving the potions for the magic or the wand.
Dreamers!
Lip service and passing the buck.
The Armed Forces are no longer that of the old days.
Harridans!
It is also time for the Chiefs to find their spine and tell these odd fish, be they from the aquarium or pirahana, the home truth and tell them to take a running jump since they themselves are digging the nation's grave! The Blind Men of Hindoostan!
Dreamers!
Lip service and passing the buck.
The Armed Forces are no longer that of the old days.
Harridans!
It is also time for the Chiefs to find their spine and tell these odd fish, be they from the aquarium or pirahana, the home truth and tell them to take a running jump since they themselves are digging the nation's grave! The Blind Men of Hindoostan!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Ironically, the training and skills of IN and IAF officers have greater demand in the civillian job market. Flying and engineering branches see the most attrition.Aditya G wrote:What are the reasons for officer shortage in IN and IAF? Are they not different from the Army?
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
The Navy Executive Branch has the option of going into the merchant Navy or as Harbour pilots as the Hooghly Pilots.
The IAF pilots, with conversion fly civil aircraft and helicopters.
The engineers of all the services and of all discipline are not only well trained, but have vast experience and they are therefore a prize catch.
It is the GD chap who is left in the lurch and yet they are the ones who are upfront in the actual warfighting!
Irony?
The IAF pilots, with conversion fly civil aircraft and helicopters.
The engineers of all the services and of all discipline are not only well trained, but have vast experience and they are therefore a prize catch.
It is the GD chap who is left in the lurch and yet they are the ones who are upfront in the actual warfighting!
Irony?
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
this is obviously a biased view of an "insider", but a point that is worth considering:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... +stay+away
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... +stay+away
Is this true? In case it is, it again points out to the question of spreading the same butter thin. So in case there is no differentiation within the cadres (the old SSC v/s PC argument), there is little scope for increasing the "butter" itself, given that it is already more than that of a "comaprable" service.The annual expenditure on the salaries and allowances of the armed forces is roughly two times the expenditure on police pay and allowances in absolute terms and about three times in per capita terms.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
what a whiney article
Maybe if the author dug around the rules, the police forces were specifically ruled out of being awarded the Ashoka Chakra series. they had their own presidents police medal series instituted for this task. somewhere along the line, they manipulated their way into the military and civil awards system.The Ashok Chakra, to police officers killed in terrorist strikes, was awarded by the President who is also the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, and so our soldiers’ complaints are decidedly in bad taste. Hemant Karkare and others may not have climbed up the slopes of Kargil to destroy an enemy hideout,
got a great idea, lets mint an ashoka chakra for every officer killed in action and dish em out by the dozen.for any leader of a unit to knowingly put himself in harm’s way is also bravery in every sense of the word.
bravery is what tukaram omble did. I respect karkare. but killed in the line of duty is not the criteria. bravery beyond the call of duty is. ashoka chakra for getting ambushed - what a wasteNor, as the example of Karkare and MC Sharma shows, do our policemen. Pride in the armed forces cannot be based on belittling the police or civil administration. In these difficult times, our military and civilian elites need to sacrifice outdated, self-serving and undemocratic modes of thought that have regrettably been expressed recently.
Abhinav Kumar is a serving IPS officer. These are his personal views
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
Actually, while the article appears heartless, medals have become pretty devalued these days.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
President's police medal are not for "gallant action". Whiel they might be given out for that ALSO, they are essentially medals given for long term exceptional service..Something akin to the PVSMs in the services..The tradition of giving Ashok Chakra to policemen is not that recent. Ajit Doval got one for his role in Ops Black Thunder..I remember the case of the police officer in Dhanbad who was killed by the mafia many years back..
Bravery awards even within the services is something that causes a lot of heartburns, people are always never happy..
the article, as I said, was from a "biased" party, so needs to be taken with a pinch of salt..But the essential data points are useful to ponder over and take into account for the solutuions!
Bravery awards even within the services is something that causes a lot of heartburns, people are always never happy..
the article, as I said, was from a "biased" party, so needs to be taken with a pinch of salt..But the essential data points are useful to ponder over and take into account for the solutuions!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
somnath wrote:President's police medal are not for "gallant action". Whiel they might be given out for that ALSO, they are essentially medals given for long term exceptional service.. !
Not really
President's Police and Fire Services Medal for Gallantry (1951)
President's Police Medal for Gallantry
President's Fire Services Medal for Gallantry
President's Home Guards and Civil Defence Medal for Gallantry (1974)
are different from
President's Police and Fire Services Medal for Distinguished Service (1951)
President's Police Medal for Distinguished Service
President's Fire Service Medal for Distinguished Service
President's Home Guards and Civil Defence Medal for Distinguished Service
http://irfc-nausena.nic.in/modules.php? ... ge&pid=104 gives you the order of precdence.
Till about the time the dhanbad sp got the Ashok Chakra in he early 90s i think. no policeman ever got the Ashoka Chakra. Ajit Doval (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajit_Kumar_Doval ) seems to have got the Kirti Chakra and his wiki page says "the first police officer to receive a medal previously given only as a military honour." so the rules were first bent in 1989
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
^^^ stand corrected on the Presidents police medal..Should have asked someone I know VV well - he won it!
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
I will go one step further, and say that while Mr. Kumar, is wrong about almost everything in his article, out of even his misconceived notions, seen through the perspective of an IPS officer, he is correct about one thing.RayC wrote:Actually, while the article appears heartless, medals have become pretty devalued these days.
The army has devalued its own officers. The answer to a Jt Secretary who makes rank in 14 years of post training service being equated to a Major General, is not for the army to create 20 more Major General ranks. It is to request the correct grade pay (Rs. 10,000) to officers who are equitable in service to Joint Secretaries (Full colonels), and to return to full colonels, the powers and responsibilities which they used to exercise in the old days.
A Lt. Col used to be paid the same amount as a DIG at Independence, and was roughly equivalent. I say that the army should request the same Grade Pay as DIG's (Rs. 8900) for Lt Cols, and restore battalion command to them. They still command in many of the services (AMC, ASC, EME, etc).
Mr. Abhinav Kumar, of course, is a Doon and Oxford man, and works in Uttarakhand. Its easy to get a somwhat "Raj" atmosphere in those salubrious surroundings, and start being able to justify saying pompous and foolish things like "The civil services are recruited to fill the highest posts of the Union", without realising that equally so, are the defence services, without the services of which also, there would be no union. Being a former journalist, he of course, manages to find sheet space to air his views, but that does not necessarily mean he is correct.
He also, while speaking derisively of leading platoons, seems not to know, that his illustrious predecessors in the IP and the early IPS, did just that, leading patrols through dusty district roads, on foot or on horse, and working very hard indeed. The 5-star lifestyle which the civil services now enjoy, is a product of intense politicisation post emergency and the 1980s.
Finally, his chat about liveried waiters and grand messes, is the armys fault. When civil service probationers do their attachments with the armed forces, these are the facilites they are shown. Rarely are they taken to Siachen, or Khardung-la, or the scene of a gritty urban firefight in Budgam or Srinagar. They are shown the golf course, the mess, and the customary patiala peg, and not asked to see anything worse. Never are they shown the troops sharing a bed (according to RayC), foot-to-head. Not for them, the pleasures of living out of a tent, and defecating in the open. No wonder they go away thinking that the army is living it up, while they are denied all these perks!
Last edited by ASPuar on 03 Mar 2009 13:39, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
ASPuar,
About "devaluing" a rank, I agree with you 100% that ranks across the board have been delvalued simply by their proliferation...I had posted some time back that the IA in some time (once the AV Singh report II is fully implemented) will have more general cadre officers than the US! And many hundreds, if not thousands of more Colonels and Brigadiers...Almost every combat squadron is led by a WingCo, every Wing led by Gr Captain...Every battalion would now be led by a full Colonel...Naval ships that are being commanded by Commodore (or Captain) rank officers have their counterparts in other navies in the form of Lt Commanders!
The focus has to be on identifying "roles" and "jobs" and then fitting the same with the approrpiate merit-skills-senniority matrix...
But I would take the point in Abhibnav Kumar's article on "per capita expense" ery seriously...In case the services are already spending 3 times per capita on salaries and pensions compared to the police, where is the headroom for more increase? Therefore the "headroom" has to be created, which can be created by either downsizing (not an option I guess) or by creating differentiated cadres..
About "devaluing" a rank, I agree with you 100% that ranks across the board have been delvalued simply by their proliferation...I had posted some time back that the IA in some time (once the AV Singh report II is fully implemented) will have more general cadre officers than the US! And many hundreds, if not thousands of more Colonels and Brigadiers...Almost every combat squadron is led by a WingCo, every Wing led by Gr Captain...Every battalion would now be led by a full Colonel...Naval ships that are being commanded by Commodore (or Captain) rank officers have their counterparts in other navies in the form of Lt Commanders!
The focus has to be on identifying "roles" and "jobs" and then fitting the same with the approrpiate merit-skills-senniority matrix...
But I would take the point in Abhibnav Kumar's article on "per capita expense" ery seriously...In case the services are already spending 3 times per capita on salaries and pensions compared to the police, where is the headroom for more increase? Therefore the "headroom" has to be created, which can be created by either downsizing (not an option I guess) or by creating differentiated cadres..
Re: Questioning the Army's Methodologies
[quote="ASPuar"
He also, while speaking derisively of leading platoons, seems not to know, that his illustrious predecessors in the IP and the early IPS, did just that, leading patrols through dusty district roads, on foot or on horse, and working very hard indeed. The 5-star lifestyle which the civil services now enjoy, is a product of intense politicisation post emergency and the 1980s.
Finally, his chat about liveried waiters and grand messes, is the armys fault. When civil service probationers do their attachments with the armed forces, these are the facilites they are shown. Rarely are they taken to Siachen, or Khardung-la, or the scene of a gritty urban firefight in Budgam or Srinagar. They are shown the golf course, the mess, and the customary patiala peg, and not asked to see anything worse. Never are they shown the troops sharing a bed (according to RayC), foot-to-head. Not for them, the pleasures of living out of a tent, and defecating in the open. No wonder they go away thinking that the army is living it up, while they are denied all these perks![/quote]
I think you have misunderstood. The troops don't share a bed. The beds are so close to accommodate all that there is not the medically prescribed distance and so instead of breathing into the same space, by the head to toe configuration, the space prescribed is made up between a bed and the third bed (the second being the one whose head is towards the feet of the first and the third bed).
What one perceives as liveried waiters and grand messes, is not really livered waiters, but waiters in Mess Uniform, which is paid for from the Mess Fund and that money is the personal money that the officers contribute for the Mess Maintenance and Mess Fund. The grandeur is again paid from the officers contribution.
It is unfortunate that those who feel that the Messes are grand as if it were paid from govt funds! Another issue, is that anything lokos grand to those prone to slumming!
Taking these lily livered individuals to those remote areas would add to the administrative hassle since half of them will fall sick. We had a tough time with the probationers when we took them to the Posts at only 6000 ft!
How can we take them to see a CASO? After all, they are, 'The civil services are recruited to fill the highest posts of the Union'. Can't have India collapsing with a couple of the crown jewels being killed!
I remember Mrs Gandhi telling the GOC that it was silly to give such a lavish lunch to the visiting MPs (they were visiting after the 1971 War). She said they would get and carry a wrong impression. She said that they should have been billeted in a barrack and fed from the langar and that too on meatless days!
He also, while speaking derisively of leading platoons, seems not to know, that his illustrious predecessors in the IP and the early IPS, did just that, leading patrols through dusty district roads, on foot or on horse, and working very hard indeed. The 5-star lifestyle which the civil services now enjoy, is a product of intense politicisation post emergency and the 1980s.
Finally, his chat about liveried waiters and grand messes, is the armys fault. When civil service probationers do their attachments with the armed forces, these are the facilites they are shown. Rarely are they taken to Siachen, or Khardung-la, or the scene of a gritty urban firefight in Budgam or Srinagar. They are shown the golf course, the mess, and the customary patiala peg, and not asked to see anything worse. Never are they shown the troops sharing a bed (according to RayC), foot-to-head. Not for them, the pleasures of living out of a tent, and defecating in the open. No wonder they go away thinking that the army is living it up, while they are denied all these perks![/quote]
I think you have misunderstood. The troops don't share a bed. The beds are so close to accommodate all that there is not the medically prescribed distance and so instead of breathing into the same space, by the head to toe configuration, the space prescribed is made up between a bed and the third bed (the second being the one whose head is towards the feet of the first and the third bed).
What one perceives as liveried waiters and grand messes, is not really livered waiters, but waiters in Mess Uniform, which is paid for from the Mess Fund and that money is the personal money that the officers contribute for the Mess Maintenance and Mess Fund. The grandeur is again paid from the officers contribution.
It is unfortunate that those who feel that the Messes are grand as if it were paid from govt funds! Another issue, is that anything lokos grand to those prone to slumming!
Taking these lily livered individuals to those remote areas would add to the administrative hassle since half of them will fall sick. We had a tough time with the probationers when we took them to the Posts at only 6000 ft!
How can we take them to see a CASO? After all, they are, 'The civil services are recruited to fill the highest posts of the Union'. Can't have India collapsing with a couple of the crown jewels being killed!
I remember Mrs Gandhi telling the GOC that it was silly to give such a lavish lunch to the visiting MPs (they were visiting after the 1971 War). She said they would get and carry a wrong impression. She said that they should have been billeted in a barrack and fed from the langar and that too on meatless days!