Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Mar 2009 11:33

Capt Arvind Singh, Commanding Officer, INS Ranjit receiving the
'Best Ship Trophy' from Vice Admiral Raman P Suthan

wow ! I read his exploits when he was 19 ! good to see him move up the ranks.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 03 Mar 2009 15:39

RayC wrote:Shahbeg Singh, I believe, was passed over for promotion.
Maybe that is why he was frustrated.
Another example of unusual things one can do when frustrated and ignored!

I believe it was a bit more than that. The General made inappropriate use of Div CSD services for personal and/ or private gains. However strict scruples at those time were enough to see him off. These days that kind of activity would not even be a blip on the radar of anyone.

Either way the end was a very sad saga for the Nation, Army and the Sikhs.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Mar 2009 16:21

recently two maj-gens of AOC are in trouble for fiscal irregularity.

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 03 Mar 2009 16:38

Not sure of which thread to put this in but since it mentions recruitment from the NSG I am posting it in this one.
Private army

Extract: The company is hiring as many experts as it can, including former National Security Guards, the black-clad commandos who reclaimed the Mumbai hotels.
::
::
Terra Force uses bomb-sniffing dogs, night-vision goggles and I.B.M. surveillance systems and is importing instructors from the Israeli army and the United States Marine Corps, Mr. Wardhan said.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 03 Mar 2009 17:50

Singha wrote:recently two maj-gens of AOC are in trouble for fiscal irregularity.

Or is it ASC?

We can thank the Honourable Court for screwing up the case. The man should have been in Tihar by now without a penny in pension and gratuity - cashiered!

These are the disgusting scum of society who should be driven out of the woodwork!

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 03 Mar 2009 18:29

Lalmohan wrote:anecdotal evidence from ex-military wallahs who were in service during the early 70's has it that many bengali officers from infantry, armour and elsewhere suddenly dissappeared for months at a time on special missions. a few nudge nudge wink wink tales in the bar afterwards as is usual. my father actually met a senior Sikh officer in a bar in Kolkata just prior to the opening of formal hostilities, was an interesting meeting according to him.

I personally know a Bengali IPS officer (UP Cadre) ...... spent around 6 months working in tea shop in Jessore Cant (always used to joke about joining the IPS to end up as a waiter serving tea to Paki soldiers)

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 03 Mar 2009 19:17

Khals,

The General made inappropriate use of Div CSD services for personal and/ or private gains.

I do recall vaguely the allegations of the day, but also that he took the fall for the doings of a whole lot of subordinates, and that the General's probity was above and beyond reproach. I will remember the General for his best work. There can never be any doubt about that. The rest, I do not know, and will not go there.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Mar 2009 21:52

The company is hiring as many experts as it can, including former National Security Guards, the black-clad commandos who reclaimed the Mumbai hotels.

Good for these ex-warriors who would have had to run from pillar-to-post earlier to get a job post-retirement.

I personally know a Bengali IPS officer (UP Cadre) ...... spent around 6 months working in tea shop in Jessore Cant (always used to joke about joining the IPS to end up as a waiter serving tea to Paki soldiers)

Wow.....

I would assume IPS + behind enemy lines= RAW or IB or did the WB govt also "lend its hand" in the events?

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 04 Mar 2009 01:26

Singha wrote:recently two maj-gens of AOC are in trouble for fiscal irregularity.

Great to hear that.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 04 Mar 2009 01:31

kaangeya wrote: I do recall vaguely the allegations of the day, but also that he took the fall for the doings of a whole lot of subordinates, and that the General's probity was above and beyond reproach. I will remember the General for his best work. There can never be any doubt about that. The rest, I do not know, and will not go there.

I am with you on this one. Very bitter sweet episode for all I guess. He played an important role in 71 which progressed our objectives and then even a deadlier one in 84.

As you said, lets remember him for the part we like (71).

Ranvijay · Post by **Ranvijay** » 04 Mar 2009 03:40

Irregularities with CSD material is never a big deal here. Detect one of them and you could be whisked away from playing polo in Jaipur to a posting in Udhampur before you can even know what hit you.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 04 Mar 2009 03:58

Stealing from CSD now part of Spec Ops

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Mar 2009 05:06

pgbhat wrote:Stealing from CSD now part of Spec Ops

Well atleast we are not discussing special ops hera-pheri of funds such as those meant for buying grenades as done by Marcinko and cronies in SEAL Team 6.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 04 Mar 2009 08:29

India airlifts Para Troops to Bangladesh border

Sources said over a battalion strength (over 1,000 soldiers) of the 50 Independent Parachute Brigade was moved on Sunday from Agra to Kalaikunda, which has a large IAF base.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Mar 2009 08:33

^^^ As far as I knew, the 50 Ind Para brigade has only about 3 battalions left as "para infantry", rest having been converted to Para (SF)..And even these three were in various stages of being upgraded to Para (SF)...So now SFs (or prospective SFs) are being used for border guard duties? Or is there something more than what meets the eye?

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Mar 2009 08:55

Are we looking to have some incursions/raids and/or snatch and grab ops from rebel camps near the border given that many of the border posts are empty?

Why else would a SF battalion be needed at the border?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2009 09:01

kalaikunda is hardly near the border, unless one is talking about bengal jharkhand border.

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Mar 2009 09:06

Rahul M wrote:kalaikunda is hardly near the border, unless one is talking about bengal jharkhand border.

But they must be based in Kalaikunda due to the air-base there.....Any op( if it was ever envisaged or maybe its my Jingoistic wet dream) would need air support?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2009 09:10

what I meant was they weren't airlifted for border guard duties, as some were saying.

rest is as you say.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Mar 2009 09:18

^^^ well the the article said that the troops were airlifted in response to the BD crisis - dont know what else the SF would do in Kalaikunda..Un less we are planing to deploy them against the Naxals in Bengal/Jharkhand..I would think the plan is more "strategic" than that...

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Mar 2009 09:30

They have been positioned so that they can be air landed, para dropped as per the situation and if need be follow up forces through land routes would join them.

A para dropped element can last self contained for 72 days and the link up then occurs, unless of course, the BDA are the link up forces.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Mar 2009 09:33

RayC wrote:They have been positioned so that they can be air landed, para dropped as per the situation and if need be follow up forces through land routes would join them.

A para dropped element can last self contained for 72 days and the link up then occurs, unless of course, the BDA are the link up forces.

Thats interesting..so a para column can sustain itself for 72 days behind enemy lines? Do they carry enough ammo/food/supplies for that long?!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2009 09:42

they carry food for 3 days IIRC.

btw, even the role you or RayC described is not a "border guard" one.
dunno why you are still calling it that.

So now SFs (or prospective SFs) are being used for border guard duties?

^^^ well the the article said that the troops were airlifted in response to the BD crisis - dont know what else the SF would do in Kalaikunda..Un less we are planing to deploy them against the Naxals in Bengal/Jharkhand..I would think the plan is more "strategic" than that...

guarding border is the only role you can think of for the paras deployed on the Indo-BD border ?

media tells us even the IAF transports are on alert. does that mean An-32s are being deployed as border guards ?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Mar 2009 09:53

^^^ why dont you read the full text? You would find that the allusion to "border guard" was sarcastic in vein..I said that the intentions have to be "more strategic" than guarding borders...

In any case, 3 days seem reasonable, 72 days seem too long for a para unit..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2009 10:02

they carry food for 3 days, they can stay much longer.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Mar 2009 10:03

Rahul M wrote:they carry food for 3 days, they can stay much longer.

and how are they resupplied for 72 days behind enemy lines? paradrops?

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 04 Mar 2009 10:07

That... otherwise, they live off the land.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Mar 2009 10:19

k prasad wrote:That... otherwise, they live off the land.

So a battalion strength unit is able to be air supplied behind enemy lines? would be quite a task...dont think 1000 soldiers can "live off the land" surreptitiously for 72 days....Unless embedded with local friendly forces..

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 04 Mar 2009 10:44

somnath wrote:
k prasad wrote:That... otherwise, they live off the land.
So a battalion strength unit is able to be air supplied behind enemy lines? would be quite a task...dont think 1000 soldiers can "live off the land" surreptitiously for 72 days....Unless embedded with local friendly forces..

I dont think 1000 soldiers will be sent on such an op - I doubt that that number was used, except, maybe in '71. At most, it'd be small 10-20 man teams I guess.... plus, I'm sure that RAW would have assets in Desh. Another conjecture I can think of is that Sheikh Hasina has come to a secret understanding with Delhi to snatch the people we want in this time of confusion, before the fog melts away and her political compulsions to the fundamentalists returns.

P.S. Somnathji, can you mail me plz.... sniperz11s at gwoogele maiil dat kaam

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 04 Mar 2009 11:24

Its most probably a standby force for chasing any fleeing Bangladesh Rifle soldiers. The BR soldiers in the border posts have been said to be encircled by Bangladesh Army (which is taking up the mandate to patrol the border). The AN-32s/Para combine can be used to corner any B.Rifle group of soldiers (on specific intel) that might try to cross over by taking advantage of the terrain. I think the Govt. has reasons to be concerned because if anyone crosses over, India would be portrayed as the savior for these mutinous soldiers and Bangla public opinion would rabidly swing against us.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Mar 2009 11:35

^^^But that begs the question, why not a regular unit from Eastern command, why the Para Bde. (located all the way away in Agra) which was airlifted to Maldives during Op.Cactus. Definitely not for chasing 'rogue' BDR soldiers on the run....actual purpose seems to be more in line with what RayC is saying. They are on alert in case an expeditionary force needs to be para dropped or airlifted in short order to stabilise BD.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Mar 2009 12:09

Just a conjecture, but the purpose of a "special" unit seems to be for taking out possible ULFA targets/camps while BD is in disarray..Or "rescuing out" the top leadership (read Sheikh Hasina) in case there is a coup attempt..."Stabilising" BD in case it really spins out into a coup would require a mobilisation of very different dimensions..Op Cactus was about taking on a few dozen rebels, BD would require something very diff.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Mar 2009 12:35

Stabilizing might also imply taking control of Dhaka airport, comms and so on, long enough (BD is still a banana republic of sorts) so the above mentioned rescue ops can be mounted. The Para Bde in that scenario will be used as a holding force (like what the US does with its Rangers) while their small teams of their SF brethren do what you are mentioning. However, in case of real stabilization, the Para Bde is one of the units of choice which can be dropped in first as pathfinders and to hold some ground to prepare for other troops to come in and link up as RayC sir mentioned.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Mar 2009 14:13

My 2 cents on the discussion:

a. 50(I) Para Bde always had 3 Parachute battaliosn under its ORBAT;quite like any other Infantry Bde. The extra battalions under the Para Regt. were distributed across the country and were generally under direct control of either the Corp or the Commmand HQ.The Bde has its airborne suppport elements. Of late, even the SF battalions have been rotated under its command. So you have mix of Para and Para(SF) regimets (2+1)

b. The Bde is Army HQ reserve and to be used in exactly the kind of emergency we see on the eastern front. No other formation will ever be in position to deploy as quickly as this Bde can. As for the argument of involving units from Eastern Command, well, they will be used in due course of time. And who knows, as we speak, some of them might be on the move to the Indo-Bangla border. But there are 2 important things to keep in mind:

1. Location: PLease check the location of the formations under Eastern Command. None of them will be available for quick movement to the designated area.
2. State of Readiness: The formations will require minimum of 72hours to be in a position to move out in strength.

So keeping all this in mind, it is but natural that the 50(I) Bde or its element has been moved.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Mar 2009 14:19

Rahul M wrote:they carry food for 3 days, they can stay much longer.

How?

Also one must understand that ammunition is based on one operation!

I would also like to mention that 'living off the land' is easier said than done.

In a semi urban area, where are they to find fruits, berries or edible stuff unless of course they will resort to stealing and looting, which will only alienate the people.

The Para Bde does not operate in isolation unless there is special operation in a 'friendly force' environment!

The airborne troops once the establish themselves including securing an airfield, the follow up forces could be air transported troops!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Mar 2009 14:41

RayC wrote:
Rahul M wrote:they carry food for 3 days, they can stay much longer.
How?

Also one must understand that ammunition is based on one operation!

I would also like to mention that 'living off the land' is easier said than done.

In a semi urban area, where are they to find fruits, berries or edible stuff unless of course they will resort to stealing and looting, which will only alienate the people.

The Para Bde does not operate in isolation unless there is special operation in a 'friendly force' environment!

Exactly, so how do they sustain themsleves for 72 days? Do they carry so much supplies on them?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Mar 2009 14:48

somnath wrote:
Exactly, so how do they sustain themsleves for 72 days? Do they carry so much supplies on them?

They have to have a Link Up force or else, while food they can forage, ammunition has to be replenished.

It must also be understood that if the Para Bde is air dropped and it seizes a strategic objective, there will be a serious and concerted counter attack by the adversary. The adversary will be fighting on his home ground and he will have no dearth of troops or weapon systems. It is thus a moot point as to what the Para Bde would be doing then.

Experience indicates that 72 hours is fair timeframe for the Para Bde to accomplish its task as also hold onto what has been seized.

To knock out a Para Bde or a Bde will require minimum a Division and a Division would take about 72 hours to muster, recce and launch unless it is already position for action!

It may also be mentioned that there will be diversionary actions by the Blue Forces so as to keep the enemy guessing and away from focussing solely on the Para Bde.

If the Para Bde is moving in assistance of a friendly Govt on an SOS, then there is no requirement of a link up since ammunition can be airlanded in airfields held by the govt sending out the SOS. Maldives is an example where they went in under Brig Joshi.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Mar 2009 14:58

In case, BD wants IA to intervene, it is not a problem.

The Fmn HQ at Siliguri has Infantry and Artillery not too far!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 04 Mar 2009 15:05

^^^ ok, so its 72 hours..thats understandable..You might want to change one of your earlier posts, where you said 72 days..

On BD situation though, it is unlikely to be a simple scenario..If something happens, its likely to be some sort of a coup by sections of the Army against Sheikh Hasina with the latter having support of the other sections and BDR...It will be a real messy situation..It would be fun to build up a scenario for gaming purposes..

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Mar 2009 15:27

somnath wrote:^^^ ok, so its 72 hours..thats understandable..You might want to change one of your earlier posts, where you said 72 days..

On BD situation though, it is unlikely to be a simple scenario..If something happens, its likely to be some sort of a coup by sections of the Army against Sheikh Hasina with the latter having support of the other sections and BDR...It will be a real messy situation..It would be fun to build up a scenario for gaming purposes..

No need to change any post. That was a typographical error, which anyone should have realised since if it was 72 days, then why not 90 days? I do not know which post that is, nor have the time and inclination to correct an obvious error. Unless of course, you are keen on garnering brownie points. If so, take 10 brownies and more!

But 72 hours is what anyone with a modicum of knowledge of warfare would realise is plausible. I have explained the rationale for 72 hours.

I would go further. A first line is what is required statistically for action.
Second Lines are necessary for further action and it cannot be carried on man and it requires a huge train of vehicles.

It is fun to game such scenarios as you are suggesting, but it is no fun implement it in real life and that too for folks like you feel that the Armed Forces do not deserve an equitable status in pay, pension and perks that is given to the IAS and IPS who are also govt servants of the same status.

People like you feel that the Armed Forces are the fattened cow that has to be sacrificed for the Prodigal sons like the IAS and the IPS.

We ask for no favours. We ask for equality!