LCA news and discussion

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 03 Mar 2009 11:50

Please stay on topic.

That means :
a> No comparison with aircraft A,B or C.
b> No half-baked suggestions to improve LCA like "add a laser gun"/"merge DRDO with ISRO " etc etc.
c> NO whining.

Rahul.

=============================================================
Background articles on HAL Tejas (LCA)

1.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

2.Remembrance of Aeronautical Matters Past (Brief history of India's Aerospace Industry)
http://vayuaerospace.in/Selected_articl ... brance.htm

3.All the articles at BR page on LCA.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/LCA-Section.html

4.http://www.acig.org/exclusives/LCA/ACIG ... Tejas.html

5.http://www.lca-tejas.org/

6.Good background on project, a bit dated.
http://www.geocities.com/spacetransport ... t-lca.html

Newbies beware ! If you make ignorant remarks, you could be grilled by gurus
to test your LCA knowledge from these pages !
And, if you come out deficient..............(you would do better not to find out !)

____________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
LCA-Tejas has completed 1057 Test Flights successfully. (28-Feb-09).

* LCA has completed 1057 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-185,PV2-113,PV3-129,LSP1-41,LSP2-52).
* 113th flight of Tejas PV2 occurred on 27th Feb 09.
* 129th flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 27th Feb 09.

46 test flights in the month of february me thinks it included sorties of Aero India

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 03 Mar 2009 11:54

Put it in the LCA folder. We don't need to look two folders up just to follow LCA...

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 03 Mar 2009 11:56

This was requested/ordered by one of the admin-bin-al-rahul-udin

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 03 Mar 2009 11:58

Ah.. But I think, after Aero-India there is a lot of good info in the old thread and a cleanup of that thread would make more sense rather than starting a new one.

But then I am not admin..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Mar 2009 12:25

PLZ Continue in this thread.
narayana, thanks.
cybaru, all the aero-India snippets will be archived when the aero-india thread is archived.

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 03 Mar 2009 21:19

Gentlemen, My apologies for the private love fest that led to the demise of the previous thread (Unintended consequences?). peace

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Mar 2009 23:31

My apologies to the Admin for the arguments that ended the previous thread.

regarding the post on AeroIndia increasing the LCA sortie count, I don't think that they were validating/testing anything during any of the AeroIndia flights, so it only increases the hours, but not the flight test status.

and one more point- K Prasad (or Rakall?) said that the LCA had been tested to an AoA of 21 degrees..a report from 2005 , by Air Marshal P. Rajkumar, said that it had already been tested to 23 deg AoA..so they probably haven't crossed that as yet due to uncertainties of high AoA flight testing.

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 04 Mar 2009 00:44

If we go by P Rama Rao committee, I think everything is not going well for LCA. See the report here

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/what- ... e/429935/1

The fighter may even miss the revised deadline of December 2010 by “one-two years” as DRDO has not been able to generate enough test flights. The present fighter fails to meet requirements set by the Air Force in 1985.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 Mar 2009 01:47

^^ I would take those reports with a pinch of salt. Even the snippet you quote says the LCA does not meet specs from 1985!! I am very sure there were a lot more requirements after that. Go through the LCA threads and you will find a lot of discussion on this.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 04 Mar 2009 02:25

The LCA probably meets all specs that it was designed for - i.e. to replace Mig-21s. It can probably do more than the Mig-21 presently.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2009 07:44

ASR has changed quite a lot since those days, major part of the increased weight is due to that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Mar 2009 08:22

SanjibGhosh wrote:If we go by P Rama Rao committee, I think everything is not going well for LCA. See the report here

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/what- ... e/429935/1

The fighter may even miss the revised deadline of December 2010 by “one-two years” as DRDO has not been able to generate enough test flights. The present fighter fails to meet requirements set by the Air Force in 1985.

On the contrary - it is doing better than expected. Clock technology is being used to increase the stealth of the LCA so that it will remain undiscovered for even longer.

More seriously, it would worry me a great deal if the LCA in 2010 met the 1985 ASR.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 04 Mar 2009 08:59

^^^

is it cloak technology(making object invisible) or clock technology?

wot happened to the cockpit stealth?

DRDO came up with the technology a way back.Are they integrating the same onto LCA?

m mittal · Post by **m mittal** » 04 Mar 2009 09:26

Rahul M wrote:ASR has changed quite a lot since those days, major part of the increased weight is due to that.

Although this has been discussed in almost every discussion forum on internet related to defense; but ASR is a top secret document and has never been made public to any journalists.

A lot of journalists have written about changing ASR by IAF.

Seeing the track record of Indian Defense Journalists; I always had a hard time believing this.

IMHO DRDO is plagued by over confidence and delusional thought process.

The utter lack of accountability. Clear cut time bound goals must be defined and people overseeing the projects must be held responsible and fired if they are unable to deliver. Private partnerships must be sought for mass productions.

I know this is not really related to LCA; but I felt this was relevant here.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 Mar 2009 09:48

^^ My friend, if the ASR is indeed top-secret then you dont know whether it changed right? In spite of that you are ready to accept the DDM opinion of DRDO being overconfident etc. Please do not malign them any further based on assumptions.

Besides if what you say is right, the IAF is sticking to their requirements from 1985 which have not been met! That's 24 years!

The IAF would have to be really stupid to not have changed their requirements considering the changes in military aviation in these 2 decades!

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 04 Mar 2009 09:51

shameekg wrote:^^ I would take those reports with a pinch of salt. Even the snippet you quote says the LCA does not meet specs from 1985!! I am very sure there were a lot more requirements after that. Go through the LCA threads and you will find a lot of discussion on this.

well, I was trying to point out the time line not the ASR. All we understand that it was changed several times.

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 04 Mar 2009 09:52

Crupt Politition are behind to kill and delay the LCA.If we do select LCA for MRCA,It is hard work and R/D then politition will not get the kickback.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 04 Mar 2009 09:56

kuldipchager wrote:Crupt Politition are behind to kill and delay the LCA.If we do select LCA for MRCA,It is hard work and R/D then politition will not get the kickback.

LCA for MRCA??

A little confused are we?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Mar 2009 12:53

jaladipc wrote:^^^

is it cloak technology(making object invisible) or clock technology?

Both can be used.

Cloak technology is still being developed, but clock technology is already proven and was used to keep the LCA invisible for 20 years. It can be used again to delay the induction by another 2-3 years.

Looks like some kind of icon must be used for sarcasm

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Mar 2009 13:50

Posted in the previous thread,thet the delay in flight testing was supposedly resolved with the Europeans getting the contract,so that the schedule could be met.This was from AWST,etc.The contract was at the last stage before signing said one report.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 04 Mar 2009 14:51

jaladipc wrote:
^^^

is it cloak technology(making object invisible) or clock technology?

Both can be used.

Cloak technology is still being developed, but clock technology is already proven and was used to keep the LCA invisible for 20 years. It can be used again to delay the induction by another 2-3 years.

i am having stomach ache from laughing ..... u have an awesome sense of humor shivji.

jaladji, shiv was being sarcastic right from the beginning when using the term "clock" ... dont take it seriously.

puneet · Post by **puneet** » 04 Mar 2009 17:17

This is regarding the express article , i remember one or two years back, express came out with a series of article inditing DRDO on LCA , AKASH ARJUN, just when these projects were turning a corner in the labs. I can say so cause thats what subsequently happened
Now all these products have actually been ordered to be inducted in the respective services, and LCA was the pride of Aero India09
yet the article can make an immediate sceptic out of a laymen
Even USA had to develop many tranches or blocks of fighters liKE f-16
And F-15 to realise their full potential, I guess the writer of the article
wants all blocks of F-16 like development to Happen at once with the LCA
and he does not spell out the "5" grave shortcomings
I thought engine and radar were the only grave "Shortcomings"
but thats just 2 , i guess i'll have to revisit my counting skills

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 04 Mar 2009 18:59

shiv wrote: Both can be used.

Cloak technology is still being developed, but clock technology is already proven and was used to keep the LCA invisible for 20 years. It can be used again to delay the induction by another 2-3 years.

Looks like some kind of icon must be used for sarcasm

just awesome ..!

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 04 Mar 2009 18:59

puneet wrote:This is regarding the express article , i remember one or two years back, express came out with a series of article inditing DRDO on LCA , AKASH ARJUN, just when these projects were turning a corner in the labs. I can say so cause thats what subsequently happened
Now all these products have actually been ordered to be inducted in the respective services, and LCA was the pride of Aero India09
yet the article can make an immediate sceptic out of a laymen
Even USA had to develop many tranches or blocks of fighters liKE f-16
And F-15 to realise their full potential, I guess the writer of the article
wants all blocks of F-16 like development to Happen at once with the LCA
and he does not spell out the "5" grave shortcomings
I thought engine and radar were the only grave "Shortcomings"
but thats just 2 , i guess i'll have to revisit my counting skills

I agree this article in IE is written by a joker who I suspect is paid to denounce indigenous R&D. Such jokers should never be given the due respect of link from the BR front page.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 04 Mar 2009 19:42

Second phase of weapon testing on Tejas underway

http://frontierindia.net/album/main.php?g2_itemId=1017

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 04 Mar 2009 19:52

Photos from an LCA bombing run - Ajai Shukla

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2009 19:58

DRDO Press Release.

"The second phase of weapon testing on Tejas is currently underway from an Air Force base in the north-western sector. The focus of the current phase of testing is safe separation and also accuracy of weapon delivery. The results from the tests would validate aerodynamic interference data as well as complex weapon release algorithms in different modes of release.
A Composite test team comprising of specialists from ADA, IAF, HAL, NAL, ADE, DGAQA and CEMILAC had been put in place at the trial location where the flight test is being conducted by National Flight Test Centre.

"Arrangements are in place for directly linking the trial location with the base telemetry station at Bangalore via INSAT and also through a secluded fiber optic channel. With this arrangement, designers and other specialists are able to monitor in realtime, the activities in general and vital parameters in particular, as the trial is going on thousands of kilometers away. Specifically for this trial, accurate upper air data is gathered at the trial location using GPS Radiosonde supplied by ISRO.

"The mood at ADA and other organizations involved in the trial is upbeat as the information has just come in, that Tejas has scored a direct hit on the target in the first test sortie itself. The trials are planned for two weeks’ duration."

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 04 Mar 2009 20:49

Arrangements are in place for directly linking the trial location with the base telemetry station at Bangalore via INSAT and also through a secluded fiber optic channel. With this arrangement, designers and other specialists are able to monitor in realtime, the activities in general and vital parameters in particular, as the trial is going on thousands of kilometers away. Specifically for this trial, accurate upper air data is gathered at the trial location using GPS Radiosonde supplied by ISRO.

wouldn't INSAT SATCOM Link be vulnerable to interception?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Mar 2009 21:18

why ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Mar 2009 21:24

ajay_ijn wrote:
Arrangements are in place for directly linking the trial location with the base telemetry station at Bangalore via INSAT and also through a secluded fiber optic channel. With this arrangement, designers and other specialists are able to monitor in realtime, the activities in general and vital parameters in particular, as the trial is going on thousands of kilometers away. Specifically for this trial, accurate upper air data is gathered at the trial location using GPS Radiosonde supplied by ISRO.
wouldn't INSAT SATCOM Link be vulnerable to interception?

Have you heard of cryptographic communication sir ?

Even if they intercept it they need to make sense out of it to be useful

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 04 Mar 2009 21:56

My paanwallah's loyal customer saw a firangi babu step out of GTRE this morning. Looks like things speeding up on Kaveri front.

Babu looked like a TFTA Eiropean.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2009 22:20

did he look like this?

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 04 Mar 2009 22:25

No.. That dude had more hair on his head and looked more academic or scientist types.
(As per my Paanwallah's loyal customer)

Err.. Wiki says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Bockel
I dont see direct link between engines and Monsieur Bockel.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Mar 2009 22:38

babus dont have direct links

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 04 Mar 2009 22:44

SaiK wrote:babus dont have direct links

Well am trying to ask what made you ask about him.. Is he on a visit to Bangalore?

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 04 Mar 2009 23:25

shiv wrote:
jaladipc wrote:^^^

is it cloak technology(making object invisible) or clock technology?
Both can be used.

Cloak technology is still being developed, but clock technology is already proven and was used to keep the LCA invisible for 20 years. It can be used again to delay the induction by another 2-3 years.

Looks like some kind of icon must be used for sarcasm

What is this cloak technology? Many people are talking about it. Can it be used to build better cloak rooms for the Indian Railways? Clock technology must be the time warp project that will make the LCA a potent weapons platform in the 1965 war. Jagan will have to re-write his book. That clock project is headed by Manikavachagam Pillai.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 05 Mar 2009 02:15

Is there plans to add an IFR probe and test refuelling before IAF starts taking delivery?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Mar 2009 04:34

Arrangements are in place for directly linking the trial location with the base telemetry station at Bangalore via INSAT and also through a secluded fiber optic channel. With this arrangement, designers and other specialists are able to monitor in realtime, the activities in general and vital parameters in particular, as the trial is going on thousands of kilometers away.

Holeee! where are these bums being bummed? Also, what kind of range does this indicate on the itty bitty Tejas? IIRC, IFR has not yet been done. After doing all the weight reduction etc, etc, 3000km ferry on internal fuel looks within realm of possibility. Thats MKI range! I'll be blowed.

CM

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Mar 2009 05:34

Cain Marko wrote:
Arrangements are in place for directly linking the trial location with the base telemetry station at Bangalore via INSAT and also through a secluded fiber optic channel. With this arrangement, designers and other specialists are able to monitor in realtime, the activities in general and vital parameters in particular, as the trial is going on thousands of kilometers away.

Holeee! where are these bums being bummed? Also, what kind of range does this indicate on the itty bitty Tejas? IIRC, IFR has not yet been done. After doing all the weight reduction etc, etc, 3000km ferry on internal fuel looks within realm of possibility. Thats MKI range! I'll be blowed.

CM

it could just have flown to Nagpur, and from there, have flown to the test range in Rajasthan, or could have staged somewhere in Rajasthan as well..maybe they didn't set up a telemetry station there, unlike when they went for cold weather testing at Leh.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Mar 2009 08:49

KiranM wrote:My paanwallah's loyal customer saw a firangi babu step out of GTRE this morning. Looks like things speeding up on Kaveri front.

Babu looked like a TFTA Eiropean.

Well if you ask my uncle's driver's brother in law he will tell you that there are Amriki techincians and even Cheenis right in the middle of the LCA assembly line servicing machinery.