Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

[brihaspati]

It could be mere coincidence, but I am slightly bothered that the major attacks in the subcontinent, outisde the formal area of TSP appears to be following a certain pattern. It is almost as if the perpetrator is leaving signs deliberately to send his message across.

The attack in BDR HQ in BD took place at the fag end of the month of Safar in the Islamic calendar. Conceding the fact that one motivation could have been the gathering of most of top command on occasion of the BDR week, everyone has been speculating on the nature and brutality of the violence, the disfigurement, looting and a degree of Sadism evident. But the month of Safar is important in the Islamic calendar for at least two things connected to violence : the battle of Abwaa and the Battle of Khaibar.

On the twelfth of Safar, the verse sanctioning Jihaad was "revealed" and the first Muslim Army went against the Qufr. This battle was called Surya-e-Hamza. Ghazwa-e-Abwa (The Battle of Abwa) took place also in this month. It was the first battle in which Muhammad went out with the Muslim raiders in the month of Safar for Jihaad, and only returned to Medina after 15 days, when Abu Lahab had died.

The second important event associated with the month of Safar was the raid and conquest of Khaibar. Khaibar was sort of the military headquarters of the Jews, (literally meaning well-defended fort) to which various Jewish tribes and groups forced to retreat before the advancing Muslims had gathered. Without going through the details of the battle, we can note the end result when the Jews were finally defeated : the terms of surrender of the Jews of Khaibar - the residents were free to leave the country after giving up their whole property to the victors, each one taking a camel load of food stuffs with him. Concealment of valuables was deemed an infraction of the conditions and the violator was the subject of capital punishment. People preferring to live in the country might occupy and reside in the house possessed by them and might also cultivate the land they occupied; but not immovable property was to be owned by them, they being treated as tenants bound to cede half of their products to the conqueror who could put them in exile at his will and pleasure.

It is possible that the Jihadis equated the gathering top brass as "Jewish" leaders of Jewish forces who had opposed the Jihadis in their bid for exapansion.

I noted a similar connection with the Islamic month of Dhul Quadha and the sadistic genocide of Jewish males and enslavement of their women (after taking them captive and hostage) perpetrated by Muhammad on a particular tribe with what happened in Mumbai last year. The days of the month in case of Mumbai coincided with the "celebrated" Islamic events that followed the Battle of the Trench. Here Muhammad was very nearly killed, but only saved because he "fell into a ditch" and the enemy attacked an killed someone else they mistook for him. The demoralized Muslim army retreated from the field and it is likely that on return Muhammad decided to revive morale by declaring a new Jihad that targeted a small Jewish group whom the Muslims attacked suddenly. On surrender, the men were publicly beheaded and the women enslaved. My interpretation was that the message in modern times was that all NATO's claims of having liquidated the top leadership was sought to be negated - the message was meant more for those Muslims who were still sceptical of the Jihadis - for they would understand the significance of specific acts of brutality.

In each case there are peculiar and uncanny similarities or cues in the nature of violence being perpetrated. The targets and the mode of violence appears to be carefully selected, and almost as if the perpetrator brain is trying to send a message.

This may mean, more such acts of apparently clueless and motiveless acts of cruelty and violence - but rooted in solid Islamic reasoning and thought process. And this will appear all around the non-TSP portion of the subcontinent as Jihad reveals more of its agenda for the future of the subcontinent.

[shiv]

Well brihaspati - I am glad you mentioned the word coincidence because by making oddball Islamic connections you are only adding to the aura of mystery and awe that Islam is already held on this forum - making people believe and search for links in hitherto unknown Islamic dates.

I think that is unnecessary. With every moment Mohammad's life being well documented (writen 3centuries after he died - with all the necessary masala I guess) almost any day of year marks something and even a burp by a jihadi can be said to have great Islamic historic significance.

The headchoppers are madmen. It matters little whether they choose a particular date - because the date is les significant than the fact that they need to be killed without remorse or too much waste of time regarding their motives or temporal rationale.

[Prem]

Guru Brihsapati has expounded the wisdom, Haribans ji has proded the action,Lord Rudradev has blessed the project , Bhagwan Shiv has given the boon , Acharya San has pointed to the right directon with one lined finger sign then who are the mortals to oppose the divine decree to Chuck De Phatte but who in India is listening, learning and looking into long term solutions for keeping the lunatics away. Enemies are making their moves , what is India or Indians doing on ground ?

Brishapati Sir, in your opinion has Ganga Jamani part of India contributed toward boosting current Jihadi islamist moral in India as most of the secularists, islamic ulema seem to orginate from this area ?

[brihaspati]

Shivji,
I proposed this as a tentative hypothesis. Moreover it is madmen/pathological killers/serial killers etc who try to send or leave a message or pattern in their handiwork - this is their twisted way of communication. I am simply exploring the possibility thats all - for I do find great similarities in the usual mindsets or developmental/conditioning characteristics typically assessed nowadays for ascribing motivations in criminals of twisted psychologies, and for seom fo the early founders of the ideology being referred to. It is also possible that it attracts these specially "gifted" psychological profiles who concentrate among the Jihadis. It is not so important whether the stories about Muhammad's lifetime written down 2-3 centuries later were authentic or not - what matters is whether the Jihadis believe those stories to be true or not, and the dates or the modes of battles associated with those dates are believed by them to be true or not. The powerful logic of precedence/Sunnah as recommended practice even in modern times can then do the rest.

Actually on the contrary, the more we analyze the motivations and expose them we will demystify Islam or Jihadi Islam to be more accurate - and show it to be a result of ordinary, persistent human faults and character traits - the very same traits that give rise to sadistic criminals in all societies. Except here they get justification by an apparently "divine" source. Making them more human, even in their deviations from normal humanity - reduces their psychological hold on the general population.

Premji, it may not be that coincidental that the so-called rugged Turks and Arabs tended to settle down more in the fertile water rich plains or near the coastal breeze. The whole culture is based on trade and agriculture, and they therefore concentrated on the fertile Indo-Gangetic plains, or coastal trading spots. Also they have had longer times to brainwash or develop Dhimmi associations where they clamped down earlier. The resistance was from the NW to the S/SE - so interior peninsula has less Islamic entrenchment. Also those who did not want to compromise probably made a hasty Agastya-jatra across the Vindhyas - leaving the Ganga-Yamuna belt richer in the Ulemaic than the Dharmic. It is no wonder that the signficant resistance to Islamic expansion comes from the centre and the south - but in this both the Northern escapees and the southerners collaborated. So the historical hint is that both Dharmic elements of the North and the positionally blessed South should join hands together overcoming their possibly noncompatible fine differences in food or linguistic preferences (I am equally fond of Rajput "achars/chutneys" and all the "tamarind/chilli" riches of the South) to drive out the non-Dharmic influence (possibly only the ring-leaders needed to be "neutralized" and not the mass of followers). Neither of them on their own and thinking purely on regional terms can pull this off.

[brihaspati]

Shiv wrote
The point I am getting at is that in order to move forward we need not reject one or the other. We need not necessarily be too enthusiastic about drawing lines about what is internal and external, lest that be misused by our own agnanis. We already have the double advantage of having invented and internalized one method and being compelled to utilize the second method.

All we need to do is NOT throw the baby out with the bathwater. Acknowledge that both methods have advantages and both together contribute to the "whole" the "unity" of knowledge/gnana. The implication of this goes beyond science. for example the Arthasastra may have a huge body of usable knowledge. But rejecting other thought processes - say an Islamic view of war and politics would be rejection of gnana. Rejection and weeding out of knowledge because it does not fit into what we define as "our tradition" is a non Indic characteristic. We must not fall into that trap.

Shivji,
You are only confirming more the essential difference between Islam/Abrahamic and the Indic, when you write these lines. The ability to ponder the question about how far, and what we can learn from the "other" or even from the "enemy" is a distinction from the Abrahamic. The basic difference comes from the fact that the Indic has evolved to a point where it does not need a history as its fundamental starting point - whereas the Abrahamic is nothing if it cannot have its history. This means the Indic is a framework for analysis, a kind of meta-religion that is more concerned with formulating rules to arrive at religions/philosophies appropriate to a particular civilizational context than a fixed and permanent micromanaging revelation. This is the great strength and vulnerability at the same time, of the Indic - it does not have a permanent concept of "evil", being a framework for theories - "evil" is also a relative concept. Thus it cannot decide if an "ideology" is "evil" and is confused over how to react to it. In its own model, it tries to deconstruct a new ideology and look at its parts to see if any of those parts are retrievable for use and worthy of fitting into a slot of its framework. Thus comes its greatest weakness - it is forever paralyzed in deciding on action to choose from to be applied to the new ideology.

I was trying to focus on the practical aspects of mobilization for the core from a strategic viewpoint. In order to mobilize people we need symbols with which they can identify with pride and confidence. One of the symbols for identification is a common enmity towards a "devil" - and in this case the best devil is an "ideology". Unless there is some clarity in identifying distinctions in "ideology" that separate us from the "devil" we may not be able to convince all to participate in this monumental struggle to rid ourselves of the hangovers of history. If we fuzz and overlap on ideology, mobilization loses focus and its strength.

Thus, I think you are showing the fundamental distinctions between the "two" and I am indicating "learning" tactics from the "other" - aren't we both very much within the framework of the Indic as you characterize it?

[Atri]

The basic difference comes from the fact that the Indic has evolved to a point where it does not need a history as its fundamental starting point - whereas the Abrahamic is nothing if it cannot have its history. This means the Indic is a framework for analysis, a kind of meta-religion that is more concerned with formulating rules to arrive at religions/philosophies appropriate to a particular civilizational context than a fixed and permanent micromanaging revelation. This is the great strength and vulnerability at the same time, of the Indic - it does not have a permanent concept of "evil", being a framework for theories - "evil" is also a relative concept. Thus it cannot decide if an "ideology" is "evil" and is confused over how to react to it. In its own model, it tries to deconstruct a new ideology and look at its parts to see if any of those parts are retrievable for use and worthy of fitting into a slot of its framework. Thus comes its greatest weakness - it is forever paralyzed in deciding on action to choose from to be applied to the new ideology.

Brihaspati ji,

This is the systemic characteristic of Indic philosophies. If Indic essence is to prevail, this feature should not be lost at any cost.

Irony is that, without overcoming this indecision and unleashing the fanatic side on Abrahmic philosophies, Indic philosophies cannot assimilate them completely. And since, one who actually decides to do this service Indic philosophies will be purged by Indics as well.

It requires an ideological kamikaze pilot as leader who leads the movement against Abrahmic philosophies in general and Islam in particular pursuing the Saam, Daam, Danda Bheda neeti.

And due to the intrinsic character of Indic philosophies which you described, that individual OR group of individuals will have to face the stigma of being Adhaarmic on few occasions from Indics.

IN other words, a person who plays the role similar to Krishna to purge Kauravas and take all the anguish and curses of Gandhari and Balaraam upon himself. If Krishna is too far-fetched, I have example of Shivaji. There is one letter by Shivaji written to one of the Maratha Sardars. Shivaji challenges in that letter," It is true I have betrayed and tricked my enemies. I take all responsibility for that and have no remorse. But show me an example where I have betrayed a friend !!! No where..."

This challenge remains unanswered. A person motivated by an ideology of "Sarva Dharma Parityajya Maamekam SharaNam Vraja... Aham tvam sarva paapebhyo Mokshishyaami, Maa Shucha: " - Leave the jumbled web of all Dharmas and believe in me. I will take care of you. I save you from all, from all sinful reaction.. Don't worry, just do it..

This is a single biggest motivation Krishna gave to Arjuna which finally convinced him to fight the war. Nashto Moho Smriti: Labdhva - All my confusions are resolved and I have regained my conscience.

Without similar philosophy practised by a dedicated and talented group of individuals for at least 2 generations, this problem won't be solved. And sad part is, typical of Indic behaviour, this groups will either be hailed as gods OR as Rakshasas and will be treated accordingly without learning anything from them.

Other option is that of evolution. Keep on flowing with time. After few thousand years, if environment sustaining Indic philosophies in India prevails, the new species of Indic philosophies will emerge slowly which contains many features of Abrahmic philosophy and largely reduced domain on earth which sustains these schools.

[brihaspati]

Chronji,
I think the crucial part will be maintaining the focus on deconstructing the ideology only and keep a tight leash on any tendency to "deconstruct" the "followers" - which is going to be an almost irresistible temptation for many. But I am quite hopeful. I see a long hard struggle ahead, but the process of convergence towards a common target and methodology I think has begun - at least in the formative stage of ideas.

It takes a sense of urgency also because we see a gradual activation of the ring-of-containment put in place around India by Unkil+UK+PRC. With TSP now in a permanent state of political earthquakes with continuous military or violent aftershocks, SL in partial limbo, and BD licking its fresh wounds, I am just hoping that something now doesnt turn up inside India again (by the way why is Nepal so quiet?). India needs to break out of this ring and assert and expand its dominance in its immediate neighbourhood - but it can only do so on the basis of a consolidated nation with unity of national purpose and ideology as appropriate for current needs (we should be able to use the Indic flexibility - and not be hesitant to adopt forms that best serve our purpose in a given context - and not stick to certain political or state forms simply because we gave those to ourselves awhile ago). Once these objectives are achieved, Indic can start experimenting again with multiplicities and pluralities.

[svinayak]

It takes a sense of urgency also because we see a gradual activation of the ring-of-containment put in place around India by Unkil+UK+PRC.

Can you give some pointers to this.

With TSP now in a permanent state of political earthquakes with continuous military or violent aftershocks, SL in partial limbo, and BD licking its fresh wounds, I am just hoping that something now doesnt turn up inside India again (by the way why is Nepal so quiet?).

Nepal is the spring board for the cow belt revolution and EJism.

India needs to break out of this ring and assert and expand its dominance in its immediate neighbourhood - but it can only do so on the basis of a consolidated nation with unity of national purpose and ideology as appropriate for current needs (we should be able to use the Indic flexibility - and not be hesitant to adopt forms that best serve our purpose in a given context - and not stick to certain political or state forms simply because we gave those to ourselves awhile ago).

India needs a ideology. Can you figure it out.

[brihaspati]

Acharya wrote
Can you give some pointers to this.

Nepal has been secured for PRC and UKfox (both have substantial interests and connections) after the strange incidents at the Royal Palace. After this Nepal has got very quiet. Which as you point out could be a preparatory stage for increased Naxalite, Jihadi, and ethnic separatist aggression on the Indian state. Bihar is becoming a strange state now - and Bihar's crucial flanks UP and WB. You can see that all three states are becoming somehow increasingly politically and ideologically fractured and paralyzed. No single well-identified power centre exists, even if it formally exists its reach appears to be limited or eroding (WB), and in this backdrop only two types of ideologically committed political power dependent on specific social segments appear to be steadily increasing their hold - the Abrahamic and Naxalite - all the rest are fractured and lumbering.

But on the other fronts, things are moving. It is moving in the north-east where Ulfa is not showing any signs of dying out. BD has recently come out of its significant bloodbath, and there are probably more to come since the paramilitary were widely penetrated and infiltrated under the Jamaat-BNP regime. The push towards Velupillais den is a great game. A push that remains incomplete could have been triggered by outside influences on several different calculations : to extend the LTTE operations into India as one way or another the LTTE will get India involved. The Tamil pscyhe could be used to provide LTTE refuge within India thereby in a sense extending the zone of conflict to the south of India and form an overlapping zone of instability involving SL and India.

Recently, Maldives has leaned over to orthodoxy in Islam after the returnees from Pakistani madrassahs have come of age in politics. There have been constitutional changes introduced to reflect this new trend, and the significant hint by the visting Maldivean dignitary of the risk of "piracy" indicates that the Jihadis, separatists, and organized crime - all will use the "piracy" ruse, and state powers indirectly ideologically sympathetic to their cause will deny any role saying "they are all individual non-state actors"- "pirates, you know".

TSP is the basket case we all know and been discussed extensively in other threads. Note that positionally, all these centres have interconnections at the political level and there are indications of continuous line sof communication and movement of men and material aimed at supporting actions against India in various forms.

India needs a ideology. Can you figure it out.

Is it time yet to spell it out? Will try within what Shivji denominates as the "immaculately diplomatic" style.

[harbans]

In our effort at rejuvenating and reinstating what our ancient knowledge and traditions had we must not to a mirror image of Islam and Macaulayism and throw away usable information that forms the wholeness of gnana/knowledge. But I fear that many of our traditionalists are behaving like agnanis and are doing just that just to spite the hated Macaulayism and Islam.

Thats absolutely right, it's a little tragic to see some Macaulites like ManiShankar Aiyer get so carried away by rejection of Indic and Dharmic values that they are ready to reject the core nature of our existence for millenia for barely 100 year old leftist ideologies..or the right wing Hindutvaadi's like Thackeray who want to be the Hindu equivalent of the intolerant mullah. Both are abhorent and don't find much resonance amongst most common Indians thankfully. Most Indians in different regions have embraced ideology as an interim for local development issues than very hard inner resonating philosophical values. So while commies may have a hey day in WB or Kerala, i doubt that most people here would love to live in a totalitarian commie set up. Not so Keralites and hardly so the Bengali with his 'Cholbe Na' revolutionary spirit.

However to be something of a pole in a multipolar world with an identity of self, India certainly has to look into it's Indic roots deeper, without trying to hurt the secular nature of the nation state. Not only it has to feel comfortable with that, but it also in that comfort it gets the strategic lobby that has always put India culturally ahead in terms of influence than the Chinese for one, at least Asia for thousands of years, including in China's own backyard. Except for China, Japan and Korea most Asian nations including Cambodia, Thailand, Myanmar, even Tibet use scripts derived from Brahmi or devanagri, Sanskrit based for example. Influence was not limited just to script, it also came with the ability to trade goods and export cutlure and tradition in an inclusive manner. India will have to regain that confidence.

As you mention many in the West will try and debate differences in the core approaches of both but the fact remains India followed the duality or life principle always. While we did not carry reductionist prionciples to the level the West has followed it in modern times, neither did Kanada or the Vaisiseka school reject either Nyaya or Mimamsa tradition to try and understand the world deeper in causal terms. Our basic brush away from causal philosophies was much to do with the advaita school rejecting logical and reason based distinctions to percieve absolute reality. The very strength of these powerful schools of thought lay thus in understanding and comprehending the limitations of reductionist principles in trying to percieve something who they ironically very logically described as beyond causal perception.


India needs a ideology. Can you figure it out.

Acharya ji, i am certain it does, though i won't term it as ideology. It needs to understand the duality of nature as propounded so well and as Shiv ji says while we must not reject reductionism for example neither we must reject the notion of inner perception. India today must also understand other societies, cultures and nations and their motivations not rooted in our traditions deeply, scientifically and logically while never abandoning the quest to understand oneself. There's a duality to our approach we must develop as individuals and as a nation to secure the grounds for a strategic scenario in the future. That approach will naturally reject excluvist dogmas, ideologies, cults from our system and propagate the strength for learning, introspection and conviction so necessary for securing and insulating ourselves against irrational dogmas and cults that threaten us and our neighbourhood. JMT again..and appreciate the thought process many of you have put in here to come out with something positive. Thats an approach we must not abandon either here or elsewhere..

[svinayak]

India needs a ideology. Can you figure it out.

Is it time yet to spell it out? Will try within what Shivji denominates as the "immaculately diplomatic" style.

Just a hint is enough. Do not elaborate even diplomatically.

[brihaspati]

My sense is that Indians have been grappling with the problem of action versus multiplicities problem forever. Sometime before I had written about identity constructions as subsets. I omitted the more mathematical part of this. I had stated that a reasonable hypothesis was that a group chose as its identity construction a collection of subsets of the entire population, based on optimality considerations. The second part of this analysis I omitted was about how a specific collection and not all possible subsets are in general chosen. In this, the group wants to maximize its gain - and chooses that particular collection which pays the maximum. The payoff here consists of two parts - (a) the payoffs extracted from interaction with other constructions of identities by other groups (social advantages - like say being racist when being racist gives social advantages etc.) (b) a negative component corresponding to the mental load of computing and deciding social actions based on ascriptions describing the constructed identities ( a complex construction involving many ascriptions will necessitate complex calculations on interactions and demand mental exertion - which is assumed to be avoided if possible in general).

I think I also casually wrote that the Indic is the most sophisticated in the sense that it among possibly all others, comes closest to realizing this complexity. In the social arena this translates into, keeping the possibility of all-possible-subsets open. Thus it can accommodate any identity any society can think of. Problem is that such a scenario then necessitates an inordinately large load on the cognitive/interactive decision making capacities of the Indic mind. Not everyone in the social structure has the time or resources to indulge this.

Another problem becomes a virtual paralysis in working through this complex model of identity for say a foreign or new element. The complex model creates doubts and urges caution in not coming to hasty or quick conclusions, and is in perennial confusion or doubt about where and how to classify this new formation. Because it recognizes all possible subsets, it also sees overlaps with the new formation from other subsets. The problem here is that the other formation might have a completely different perception about this, and that the Indic perception by definition is almost always going to be unmatched or reciprocated by non-Indic - which will deal with smaller collections.

I understand and appreciate the note of caution and the basic anxiety from Shivji and Harbansji. But I think we have grappled with this problem from the earliest recorded handing down of our philosophical explorations. And a crucial watershed is reached in the "survey of the battlefield" in the epic. Here the identity overlap problem is thrown up where Arjuna senses and recognizes the overlap of identity with someone whom he has to oppose and destroy and this induces paralysis. Krishna, here plays the advocate of "distinction" - in spite of acknowledging the multiplicity of forms, for that was the most important and crucial job of the hour.

I would like everyone to consider the "dual" approach in the sense that overlaps can create paralysis. Taking the coming period as a period of immense ideological, political and military struggles we should keep this carefully in mind. Decisive actions when needed can be jeopardized by recognition of overlaps - maybe we will need the clarity and "bakalma" of persons like Krishna.

[Prem]

More so than ideology ,visionary leadersdhip is urgenty required .Ideology did not pay China, Japan , Germany or Russia. Indocentric leadership will go long way in achieving India;s righful place among civilzed nations. The attitude what is good for India is good for the whole world can keep us going till end of time till indic ethos liberate every one from both material and spirtual bondage ( The ideas is to keep billion folks busy doing "good" for long long time) As first step create sena of 1 crore jawans.

[brihaspati]

Although this perhaps belongs more to the leadership thread - I will just say that visionary leadership best works in vaccum. Like when most of Indic leadership had been decimated, first the popular ideologues appeared in the medieval period and then military leaders like the founders of the Vijaynagar, Maratha, and Sikh phenomenon. Same the case with the advent and entrenchment of the British. Problem with the current period is the already established leadership. So its a two way struggle against the established one and convincing and mobilizing the "mass". My measure is that a majority of the current society is still not ready to take decisive steps - that lies 10-20 years in the future, when the current generations being formed in an atmosphere of complete lack of certainties and focal points come into politically significant age-group.

[brihaspati]

The Romans had a system by which they could elect a dictator for a short term to take prompt and necessary actions in significant national crises. We cannot have such a system in the modern period and neither are we Romans. But there is no denying the fact that authroitarian regimes elected by popular will (and not crowned by descent) respond quicker to national crises. The objective is a state whose safety and prosperity is shared inclusively by all members of the state, and a regime that will do whatever is necessary to ensure this. We can think of this regime as a lean and mean, determined, ruthless towards enemies, mobilizer of masses, that subdues and suppresses all potential detractors that surround the core. A tall order perhaps, but India has the capabilities to produce both the personnel as well as the infratsructure to achieve this. A certain degree of imperialism is perhaps going to become unavoidable. Before starting the brushfire, just think of who surrounds us and why we have to neutralize if not liquidate them!

[Prem]

Sooner the current crop of leadership calls for the day and new young one emerge better for India , My fear is Psuedos contolling media might get the new generation , do the social enginnering , cut their roots and succeed in keeping India adrfit in near future . OTOH , controlling info is not that easy now and i believe new awareness is already dawning among Indians which will keep us going places (where no man has gone before)

[brihaspati]

The EJ's target Indian students going to study abroad, and I have come across their explicit policy statements and manuals where they urge their propagators to remember that these students would perhaps one day be leading lights back in India. A start perhaps can be made along similar arguments. I am not in a position to discuss ground realities, but not sure whether such attempts are seriously undertaken beyond "cultural" consciousness or youth fronts associated with specific political parties. BRfites can perhaps think if they can each start something where possible. This has to be a political consciousness that does not limit itself to a specific political party back in India - from a tactical viewpoint, and open with respect to its views and opinions to prevent any leverage gained by inflitrators from both the host as well as Indian state interests. Media effects can be sought to be countered better abroad.

[ramana]

One thing you realize is that creation of TSP has distanced lands and places dear to Hindu memory and civilizational wellsprings. We are like the Christians also in this respect.

[Atri]

What is EJ?

[Keshav]

The EJ's target Indian students going to study abroad, and I have come across their explicit policy statements and manuals where they urge their propagators to remember that these students would perhaps one day be leading lights back in India. A start perhaps can be made along similar arguments.

I read a survey somewhere on a Christian forum which found that Hindu Americans are the hardest demographic to convert among all the religious groups in America.

What is EJ?

Evan-jehadi, a contemptuous term for evangelicals whose only desire to convert India. Although some are Indian, funding generally comes from foreign sources.

[Prem]

One thing you realize is that creation of TSP has distanced lands and places dear to Hindu memory and civilizational wellsprings. We are like the Christians also in this respect.

If things remain same, 2 generations from now this civiilzational memory will be almost extinct . The burden to act is on current and next generation before pseudos gobble them up. On personal note , 2 of my maternal uncles were born in Peshawar and one was named after the city itself. Lookig at the pictures of elders in FATA etc , it reminded me of them as they dressed like them as well looke like them. Onle of them is still living in Punjab and is fond of talking about his old childhood days. Funny thing is quite few stayed behind for a while and did not move out till end of 47 and they have mighty stories to tell.

[ramana]

You know I am a SDRE from middle south. However my grandpa used to visit Peshawar often as the Grand Master of the Masonic Lodge and we have a lot of stories about that region. Another uncle was the Principal of DAV College alhore.

[shyamd]

Ramana, interesting. Paki's have been spreading many conspiracy theories about the free masons (just take a look at youtube). Any truth in them? What is the status of masons in pakistan currently?

[ramana]

I have no clue. My dad decided no more continuity in that link and decided none of his children will be in that pool.

[svinayak]

My sense is that Indians have been grappling with the problem of action versus multiplicities problem forever. Sometime before I had written about identity constructions as subsets. I omitted the more mathematical part of this.

You need to reduce each of your posting text by 50%. Do not give too much details.

[svinayak]

Ramana, interesting. Paki's have been spreading many conspiracy theories about the free masons (just take a look at youtube). Any truth in them? What is the status of masons in pakistan currently?

Recently I met an Indian who attends the Masonic meetings. He showed me photos of the gathering.

[shyamd]

Ramana thanks.

Acharya, anything interesting thrown up? Any truth in the conspiracies?

[brihaspati]

Acharyaji,
began to make things explicit as there seemed to be confusion about what I intended to say when I began to post. Agreed to what you mean.

Regarding the Masonic - they have long experience in surviving extremely brutal and harsh repressive ideologically motivated state machinery. So, if something similar exists within TSP, it is not completely to be dismissed. Although whom they work for now, or whether they have been infiltrated by agencies of certain powers during the Cold War, is something we cannot speculate on. One thing is pretty sure, they are less likely to be sympathetic to the Islamic.

I think as TSP moves closer towards collapse, PRC will step in to a certain extent - even possibly with Unkil blessing. The combination should prompt very small sections and groups within TSP elite and middleclass to find escape routes - this is where Masons or the splintered Pakistan Communist Party can play a minor role.

[Airavat]

The objective is a state whose safety and prosperity is shared inclusively by all members of the state, and a regime that will do whatever is necessary to ensure this. We can think of this regime as a lean and mean, determined, ruthless towards enemies, mobilizer of masses, that subdues and suppresses all potential detractors that surround the core.

I understand your point; though in our political system any party, with such a vision, will have to compromise and cut deals with the various regional honchos just to gain power. It will also need India-wide representation to tackle the various challenges the country faces.

For example a central government tackling water disputes between states ideally should have representatives from all the affected states, to dispel any accusation of bias and the subsequent build-up of resentment, which may then lead to violence.

[shiv]

Brihaspati - the less you say the less clearly you will be understood. The natural (and usual) consequence of this is the superficial impression of wisdom with a hint of depth or substance. This can carry things through for a short while as people expect and anticipate depth and substance on trust. When that depth or wisdom fails to appear the "saying very little" bit soon gets lampooned as a sham from a person who pretends to know what he does not know. Saying too little is a two edged sword and can take you only so far. India has never been fooled by people who say too little. Indians are fooled (or convinced) more often by people who say a lot. This is a particular problem when there are 19 people saying a lot and one person chooses to say nothing pretending he is holding some great truth for a greater cause to be revealed at a better time.

"Balderdash! There is nothing there" would be fair reaction to such an act of inane concealment in the pretext of subtlety and profundity. Hints and nudges are not a substitute for plain speaking although they are sometimes grossly overrated on this forum. They can only take you so far. In your case, observing your style of communication - hinting and nudging for you is as good as packing up and never returning to this forum.

The biggest disadvantage of plain speaking is that silly arguments can be torn down. When you hide silly arguments in the form of hints and nudges - they can survive as "truth yet to emerge" for a while but if it emerges it can be torn down, and if it does not emerge it will be dismissed after fooling people initially. I will stop, quoting the example of my late uncle who claimed all his life to have great missile secrets locked up within him - hinting, and not telling, until he died.

What you choose is your prerogative. I have said what i think.

[Atri]

The current scenario of Bhaarat.... watch from 0:55 onwards...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w13iroP ... re=related


And suggestion for fixing things...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7V0w9u1CsI


Replace Ambhi of taxila with Whiskey commanders of TSPA and watch this video 2:20 onwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBsT5IAs ... re=related

[svinayak]

Ramana thanks.

Acharya, anything interesting thrown up? Any truth in the conspiracies?

Cant talk much about it

[brihaspati]

Shiv wrote
They can only take you so far. In your case, observing your style of communication - hinting and nudging for you is as good as packing up and never returning to this forum.

Shivji,
one of my primary faults I was accused of when with "reds" - I couldnt keep my mouth shut about what I passionately believed in. Neither can I argue for something falsely which I cannot believe in. This inability to compromise ideologically makes me unfit for "politics" I guess. But I also believe in ideas, even my own ideas being subjected to critical analysis so that I can sharpen them - for here I am on a quest. The forum has really helped me starting my thinking again because of various proddings - on issues I left very bitterly and sadly almost a decade ago. I am here to arrive at answers, and debates and critical analysis - sometimes even hostile analysis is good, and I am not scared of this at all. Being an Indic, perhaps I also carry threads of mysticism and intuition - and feel increasingly that great changes are coming, and that we can indeed ride out this change with strength. But being a "rational", I also want to subject my intuition to severe rational onslaught to check that my desires for India are not turning up as intuition.

Straight talk with the "commons" is never problematic - for I was accepted at the "commons" level with great warmth and affection. There would be genuine complaints if I didn't turn up say at a tribal festival or some other festivity in a "slum". I think at some deeper level, the common Indian - bereft of urban consumption, and struggling hard to survive, are clever enough to recognize if you are being dishonest with them. My only guilt is that I feel I abandoned them because if I continued I would be dishonest with them. I could not work to support a group of ideologically and materially corrupt "leadership" in power.

Even in the future, I think we should be straight with people, except where giving out a detailed strategy will actually play into the hands of the "enemy". My gut feeling says, an open clear uncompromising "call" will strike home. There will be a storm of media fracas against such "calls" but a steely determination that ignores this can gradually see a turning around of the popular will. However this is my personal conviction, and of course many perhaps do not feel the same way.

[shiv]

My gut feeling says, an open clear uncompromising "call" will strike home.

I empathise with that fully. There are too many clueless people whom you will not take along with you unless you speak up and speak clearly.

[Prem]

My gut feeling says, an open clear uncompromising "call" will strike home.

I empathise with that fully. There are too many clueless people whom you will not take along with you unless you speak up and speak clearly.

There come such time when argument stops, silence prevails for a while and then Danda ascends to throne as straight ruler . Those who will join will come regardless, rest are irrlevant. We have seen this on BR itself.Many has come and gone like big stinker yet few has stuck around not giving up. Ayo Brahaspati !!!

[brihaspati]

Prem wrote
If things remain same, 2 generations from now this civiilzational memory will be almost extinct . The burden to act is on current and next generation before pseudos gobble them up.

The TSP theologians, just as their brethren inside India, realize very well the value of erasing icons of pre-existing cultures. Coupled with a murderous imposition of destruction/denigration of even references in texts or otherwise to what existed before unless in the most outrageous of misrepresentations and recosntructions, this shrewdly exploits the common human phenomenon of removal of memories by overlay and weakening reinforcement. Thus to counter this, for the future, reinforcement or repeatation of what was there "before" from a correct perspective (not taking reconstructions by Thaparites uncritically) and an "enforcement" of removal of icons and items of overlay imposed at Muslim or Christian hands undertaken.

Things like the "LalMasjid" are wonderful thinsg to happen, andif there is any way of encouraging the Jihadis to take up shelter in Islamic cultural icons - then that should be undertaken. Collateral damage is unavoidable in rooting out "terror". Another precedence has been provided by the Tleban - in demolishing the Bamian hill-side images. One Islamic apologist from India I saw on TV justified this as saying that it is entirely within Islamic injunction to destroy "images" and icons of religions no longer having any followers in the "area". So once we make sure that there are no longer any followers of that "ideology" in that region, it should not be shocking or surprising for Muslims that their cultural icons also vanish.

The proselytizing Abrahamic religions on the subcontinent has to be clearly told that all their historical attempts at removing the pre-Islamic will have to be reversed, and they themselves either secularize or reform into an Indic philosophy. (The Jews as far as I know are not keen on gaining converts, and they are much more obsessed with genetic purity and strictly by descent, and no records of destroying the pre-existing Indic or attempts at overlay). It is better that they do this voluntarily, as otherwise it would be done unilaterally. This is equally applicable to any offshoots of the Indic that wants to insist on features incompatible with modern humanitarian values and practices. This is the fundamental basis of establishing a new Indic core, and I don't think we can start rebuilding by compromising on this.

[brihaspati]

So as we had discussed sometime ago, Obama is now showing his real "stabilizing" agenda in AFG. I had speculated long ago at the time of his election that he will give a lot of initial bluster because he cannot afford to be seen as weaker than Bush in foreign policy. But his main concern will be to revive his country's economy and he would like to stabilize the lines in AFG now. Too quick a withdrawal will tarnish his reputation as having given up AFG to Jihadis. So he will buy into, or deliberately misuse the propaganda that there are some "good Jihadis" to justify his stabilization policy as a pre-justification to eventual withdrawal and leaving the entire region to PRC+Saudi supported and maintained Jihadi expansion.

The Taliban is now consolidating, and they need to confine US activities. So they will pretend to send out one faction as the "moderate", to stop NATO from expanding or continuing. Once the NATO forces lose movemnet and dynamic, they would be easier to pick off as stationary targets facing a highly mobile Chinese Red Army style warfare carried out by the Talebs.

It is probably also time now for India to start thinking of taking initiatives on its own. But then it is a society divided and fractured as of now, where regional interests cannot rise above their particular interests (reflecting actually elite interests in keeping their flock isolated).

[brihaspati]

In a supposedly multipolar world, there are probably now three top "poles" - USA, PRC and Russia. There have been suggestions about a possible collaboration between India and PRC or that India can consider veering towards PRC in global politics. How far is this feasible and advisable?

What are the main geo-strategic aims of PRC? Economically, PRC pinned its growth potential, quite naturally on the capturing of markets with the highest purchasing power and inclination to be "consumer" societies, where politics or ideology have less influence on consumer choice. Such markets typically lay in the capital rich markets of the "West". As supposed Marxists, they must have realized that through this interaction, there will be economic repercussions that could have profound impact on their regime itself. The economic model they followed can usually be characterized as "state capitalism". Now as these markets collapse, PRC has to diversify and capture less lucrative markets. India in this sense will be a secondary but not such a bad choice either. Now even if such economic interaction is beneficial for PRC, is it beneficial for India? India trails behind the "West" in capital accumulation (although some of the assets held in virtual monetary terms might have vanished during the recent crash). Already there are murmurs of distress at Chinese products edging out the domestic Indian products in toys, silk etc.

To be competitive at PRC levels, India has to enforce enormous rates of capital accumulation which are typical of all early cpaitalist societies, and typically always created through intensive exploitation of domestic labour, or intensive extraction of capital from colonies, or from transfer of capital through unequal trade maintained by military superiority. India has no colonies, it did not impose intensive "primitive capital accumulation" through state authority, it has not shown inclination or capacity to militarily dominate non-domestic markets to carry out unequal trade. The only argument that can come up here is that the dollar-reserve held capital of China wil/have devalued, making it fairer for India's capital to compete. But PRC's main infratructure to generate "capital" remains in place unless there is a "social revolution" driven by worsening employment conditions against already raised expectations.

PRC's next main concern will be to capture both the oil as well as the still intact consumer capacities of the middle east. It also needs convenient access to and presence in the Indian Ocean to dominate the Indian ocean rim economies, some of which belong to the "emerging" category. In this its main thorn in the side is India. It is also scared that India continues to protect neucleus of Tibetan nationalsim, and that obviously a free Tibet would push PRC further away from its strategic objective of reaching the Indian Ocean and the Gulf. From the imeprialistic mindset of PRC rulers, militarily its hold on Northern Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh are imprtant flanking positions to dominate Tibet, and surround it from two sides.

It is also therefore important for PRC to extend these two flanks right up to the Indian Ocean. Through Pakistan, it can then isolate India from the current NATO presence in AFG, as well as from Russia. In the east, it can threaten to join up with Myanmar and BD to isolate Indian eastern wing, in conjunction with Nepal. Until PRC can ensure the continued weakness of Indian economy, and weaken its dominance in the region, it cannot ensure continued extraction of capital from the "lesser economies" to maintian its growth curve. If India agrees to this subsidiary role PRC can be happy and accept India's overtures.

There is another route - where PRC is made to realize the extreme costs of this flanking attempt at isolating and weakening India. And a potential threat that such flanks could be turned inside out to surround Tibet from the sides. PRC may be more amenable to Indian "overtures" only then.

[ramana]

Jupiter need to put that on a ppt file with some maps.

[brihaspati]

will do.