Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 23 Feb 2009 16:13

vaman wrote:Oh yes Sureshm, I am biased as the revolution makes no sense to me, and since you have amply displayed your IQ again can we move this discussion elsewhere? Lets debate at communalismcombat.org, I am on as teesta setalvad

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 23 Feb 2009 16:33

Ministry of Defence accused of masking battlefield casualty figures

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 23 Feb 2009 16:36

Swindon school faces inquiry after brutal 'racist' attack by Asian teenagers

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 23 Feb 2009 20:12

, Miliband insisted that he was simply articulating the British Government's stand because he did not believe in saying "one thing in private and another in public".

he sure did not learn anything about diplomacy then.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 25 Feb 2009 20:54

Peer jailed for motorway texting

Lord Ahmed, 51, was driving his Jaguar when he hit a stationary car in the outside lane of the motorway - Martyn Gombar, 28, was killed. Lord Ahmed, of Rotherham, had admitted driving dangerously.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 25 Feb 2009 21:08

Plans for £12,000 compensation for families of IRA terrorists dropped

A proposal to pay £12,000 compensation to the families of everyone killed during Northern Ireland's troubles -- including the relatives of terrorists - has been rejected by the Government.

The proposal would have meant that the family of a terrorist who blew himself up with his own bomb would be entitled to the same payment as relatives of a baby killed in the blast.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 28 Feb 2009 10:34

2 British Paras killed by 'massive weight' of Taliban fire, inquest hears

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 28 Feb 2009 18:39

UKstani conomy is roaring ahead like the Eurostani tiger it has always been.

Admittedly was wrong to think the global meltdown put paid Grrrrope Britain's grrrowth prospects onlee.

Lloyds counts cost of HBOS takeover and property slump as 500,000 customers slip into negative equity

HBOS, Britain’s biggest mortgage lender, revealed that 381,669 customers, about 16.8 per cent of its mortgage book, owed more than the value of their homes. At Lloyds TSB, 162,000 homeowners, 15 per cent of its mortgage book, were in the same position.

These figures compare with only 0.1 per cent of customers of each bank – a total of less than 4,000 households – being in negative equity at the end of 2007.
...
Michael Saunders, chief economist at Citigroup, said last month that the bank estimated homeowners with negative equity was up to about 1.2 million, from 100,000 a year ago, out of a total of between 11 million and 12 million mortgages. “There is no sign that the decline in house prices – and hence the surge in negative equity – is yet close to ending,” he said.

He said in December that about one owner in four could be in negative equity if prices fell by a total of 30 per cent by 2010, as many analysts expect.

$hitain will need to import another million+ rabid Paki beards to feed the surge in demand for labor (and labor demand for votes) caused by this fantabulistic growth spurt (0.1% to 16.8% is not trivial, after all), I predict.

Of course, goes without saying that UKstan deserves every Paki they get and then some more, stiff upper hip not withstanding.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 28 Feb 2009 20:23

More on UKstani growth pros-pects in the near+ future.

'Impossible to say' how much capital needed to shore up banking system: BoE governor

Mervyn King, the Governor of the Bank of England, has said it is "impossible to say" how much capital will be required to shore up the British banking system.

Mr King said it would take "many months" to establish the scale of toxic assets held by banks, and the scale of problems would change depending on the international economic outlook. {Clear signal for some to scram with the loot whilst they still can}

"That is not something that is easy to do or can be done quickly," he told the MPs. "It will require a much longer and more detailed assessment contract by contract."

"How much capital banks will need in the end is impossible to tell," he added. {Duh}

But he also suggested public borrowing was too high as the UK entered the crisis and that had affected the Government's response to it. "I do think public debt matters. We get to this crisis with levels of public borrowing which were too high and that made it difficult," he said.

But, he added, that was a "million miles" away from the idea that Britain in any way resembled somewhere like Zimbabwe. {million miles indeed. Must be true, a TFTA sahib is saying so}

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 01 Mar 2009 17:56

Ethnic minority pupils race ahead of poor white classmates in schools
Immigrant pupils are overtaking many white children at school because their families place more value on education, a key Government adviser has said.

UK recession: how it changed the way we live together
The recession has shaken up the entire family set-up, with divorcees living together, parents putting off having more children, and men forced to become 'househusbands'

Killers of British troops in Iraq will never face justice
Almost none of the insurgents responsible for the murder of 137 British soldiers in Iraq will ever be brought to justice.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 01 Mar 2009 17:58

History of Britain's special relationship with America

AjYa · Post by **AjYa** » 01 Mar 2009 18:47

Immigrants not wanted in Britain

As Britain faces one of the worst economic periods in its history, Britishers are directing their anger against foreign workers taking up jobs in their country.

The government has announced a new crackdown on the highly skilled immigrants to ensure British jobs stay with British people.

As Indians have historically been the biggest group in the highly skilled immigrant category, the impact of the change in rules on Indians applying for work in Britain will be significant. .............................

...........................................It's ironic that the targets of the recession are immigrants when their contribution to the unprecedented boom Britain witnessed in the last decade had been widely acknowledged.

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/st ... 0090084968

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 01 Mar 2009 23:46

The shameful Islamophobia at the heart of Britain's press

When a tabloid newspaper reports that a 'Muslim hate mob' is daubing abuse, can we believe them?

By Peter Oborne

Monday, 7 July 2008

On the morning of 7 October 2006 The Sun newspaper splashed a dramatic story across its front page. The story – billed as exclusive – concerned a callous and cynical crime committed by Muslims. A team of Sun reporters described in graphic detail how what the paper labelled a "Muslim hate mob" had vandalised a house near Windsor. The Sun revealed that "vile yobs hurled bricks through windows and daubed obscenities. A message on the drive spelled out in 4ft-letters: '****** off '."
Related articles

One Tory MP, Philip Davies, was quoted venting outrage at this act of vandalism. "If there's anybody who should ****** off," Davies was quoted as saying, "it's the Muslims who are doing this kind of thing. Police should pull out the stops to track down these vile thugs".

The Sun left its readers in no doubt as to why the outrage had been committed. Local Muslims were waging a vendetta against four British soldiers who hoped to rent the house on their return from serving their country in Afghanistan. The paper quoted an army source saying that: "these guys have done nothing but bravely serve their country – yet they can't even live where they want in their own".

But there was one very big problem with The Sun story. There was no Muslim involvement of any kind. It is true that a house had been vandalised in Montagu Road, part of the comfortable and prosperous Windsor suburb of Datchet – as The Windsor Express had reported the previous day. It also looks very likely that the attack was connected with the potential arrival of four household cavalry officers.

The average house price in Montagu Road is around £600,000 and there is an air of almost rural tranquillity. As far as we could discover, no Muslims lived in the area. To all intents and purposes Montagu Road was a white, gated community. The Sun claim that a "Muslim hate mob" could have arrived unnoticed and committed vandalism without being observed was nothing short of preposterous. Furthermore, the police denied any Muslim connection.

In his article for The Windsor Express the previous day, local journalist Paul Pickett had written a far more scrupulous piece. He reported that the local army barracks had received three anonymous phone calls the previous week. They were not from Muslims, however, as The Sun reported. They were from local residents. Pickett reported that the anonymous calls objected to the presence of soldiers because they would lower property prices in the road. He also reported that around 40 local residents had signed a petition, objecting to the soldiers moving in.

We spoke to Jamie Pyatt, one of The Sun team of journalists who wrote the "exclusive" and he stood by his story. He told us that the police were being politically correct by not admitting that Muslims had carried out the crime. According to Pyatt, his contacts were under no doubt as to who vandalised the house. He claimed that there are lots of Asians on the road who could easily have seen British soldiers looking around in their combat gear. This was certainly not our impression. In fact, we did not see a single man, woman or child who looked remotely Muslim.

Eventually, even The Sun was forced to admit that there were problems with its story. Some four months after it appeared, under pressure from the Press Complaints Commission, a four-line correction was published. It read: "Following our report "Hounded out" about a soldiers' home in Datchet, Berkshire, being vandalised by Muslims, we have been asked to point out no threatening calls were logged at Combermere Barracks from Muslims and police have been unable to establish if any faith or religious group was responsible for the incident. We are happy to make this clear."

The Sun never retracted the sensational assertion that a "Muslim hate mob" had vandalised the house and, to this day, the original "Hounded Out" story can be found on The Sun website.

But Islamophobia As this pamphlet will illustrate, it can be encountered in the best circles: among our most famous novelists, among columnists from The Independent and Guardian newspapers, and in the Church of England. Its appeal is wide-ranging. "I am an Islamophobe, and proud of it," writes Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee, then writing for The Independent. "Islamophobia?" The Sunday Times columnist Rod Liddle rhetorically asks in the title of a speech, "Count me in." Imagine Liddle declaring: "Anti-Semitism? Count me in", or Toynbee announcing that she was "an anti-semite and proud of it". This just wouldn't happen and for very good reasons. Anti-semitism is recognised as an evil, noxious creed and its adherents barred from mainstream society and respectable organs of opinion. Not so Islamophobia.

Channel 4 Dispatches commissioned the Cardiff School of Journalism, Media and Cultural Studies, to examine reporting of Muslim issues. The team analysed some 974 stories and found that approximately two-thirds of all "news hooks" for stories about Muslims involved either terrorism (some 36 per cent of stories); religious issues such as Sharia law, highlighting cultural differences between British Muslims and others (22 per cent); or Muslim extremism, concerning figures such as Abu Hamsa. These stories all portrayed Muslims as a source of trouble. By contrast only 5 per cent of stories were based on problems facing British Muslims.

Here are some more false stories concerning Muslims in Britain. Some were pure inventions, others contained a grain of truth but were distorted.

"Muslim Sickos" Maddie Kidnap Shock' – Daily Star, 28 April 2008. The story did not, as readers might have inferred from the front-page headline, reveal that Madeleine McCann had been kidnapped by a Muslim "sicko". In fact, it refers to a website on which claims were made that Madeleine's parents were involved in her disappearance.

"Hogwash: Now the PC brigade bans piggy banks in case they offend Muslims" – Daily Express, 24 October 2005.The story claimed that NatWest and Halifax had removed images of piggy banks from their promotional material in an effort to avoid offending Muslim customers, since pork is forbidden in Islam. The paper quoted observers calling such action "barmy" and "bonkers", thereby stirring up a huge response from the public.

After the story's publication, the Halifax drily noted that it "has not withdrawn any piggy banks from branches" and noted that in fact it had not used piggy banks in its branches for a number of years. The NatWest press statement noted that: "There is absolutely no fact in the story."

"Get off my bus I need to pray" – The Sun, 28 March 2008. This was the story of a Muslim bus driver ordering his passengers off his bus so that he could pray. The Sun story, along with footage of the bus driver praying, was widely circulated around right-wing blogs. Dhimmi Watch, the right-wing blog on the site Jihad Watch that catalogues perceived outrages committed by Muslims, even included The Sun story in their "ever-expanding You Can't Make This Stuff Up file". Well, actually, you can. The bus had been delayed, so in order to maintain frequency the bus company had ordered the driver to stop his bus and allow passengers to board the bus behind. Tickets and CCTV evidence show that all the passengers were on that bus within a minute.

The so-called witness, a 21-year-old plumber, who recorded the bus driver praying, had not been on the bus, and had arrived after the incident to find a small crowd outside a bus.

"The crescent and the canteen" – The Economist, 19 October 2006. There was no truth in the article's suggestion that Leicester University had banned pork on campus. In actual fact, the university Student Union had made just one out of the numerous cafes on campus halal, in a decision which had as much to do with economic factors as cultural sensitivity as Leicester has a large number of Muslim students. The other 26 cafes on the campus, including the main canteen, were still serving pork as usual.

We should all feel a little bit ashamed about the way we treat Muslims in the media, in our politics, and on our streets. They are our fellow citizens, yet often we barely acknowledge them. We misrepresent and in certain cases persecute them. We do not treat Muslims with the tolerance, decency and fairness that we so often like to boast is the British way. We urgently need to change our public culture.

This article is edited from the pamphlet 'Muslims Under Siege: Alienating Vulnerable Communities' by Peter Oborne and James Jones. It is linked to tonight's edition of Dispatches, 'It Shouldn't Happen to a Muslim', Channel 4, 8pm

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 02 Mar 2009 02:34

Except for these statements, anti-terror codes are bound only to exacerbate the community rather than actually stem the tide of jihadis.

1. They believe in jihad, or armed resistance, anywhere in the world. This would include armed resistance by Palestinians against the Israeli military.

2. They fail to condemn the killing of British soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan.

For the first statement, you would have to define the term armed resistance properly. The Americans had an armed uprising against the British. Are Americans jihadis? The probably need to clarify this to something more general. For example, "Do you believe furthering or defending a religion with violence is acceptable?"

For the second statement, they are arguing on a negative which doesn't make sense. No one is going to go out of their way to condemn the killing of British soldiers if they already believe its wrong. There are probably tons of white Britishers who aren't condemning the soldiers. Once again - this needs to be rephrased, but this seems a bit harder than the other ones.

__

All in all, tests are always bad ways of weeding out because the ones who'll do the most damage will always lie by memorizing the answers that their superiors want to hear. All in all, its going to antagonize people and not get any quantitative work done.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 02 Mar 2009 22:57

UK nuclear HQ, sensitive military sites under terror threat

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Mar 2009 05:00

The Perils of Poodledom...

President Barack Obama just plain rude to Britain. Don't call us in future.

The morning papers and TV last night featured plenty of comment focused on the White House's very odd and, frankly, exceptionally rude treatment of a British PM. Squeezing in a meeting, denying him a full press conference with flags etc.

But Obama's merely warmish words (one of our closest allies, said with little sincerity or passion) left a bitter taste with this Atlanticist. Especially after his team had made Number 10 beg for a mini press conference and then not even offered the PM lunch.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Mar 2009 05:57

So UK's Brown Nosing to Obama the Greek did not earn any reward for Poodleland.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Mar 2009 07:53

Gawd

the White House sent back to the British Embassy a bust of Sir Winston Churchill that had occupied a cherished spot in President Bush's Oval Office. Intended as a symbol of transatlantic solidarity, the bust was a loaner from former British prime minister Tony Blair following the September 11 attacks

Barack Obama sends bust of Winston Churchill on its way back to Britain

But when British officials offered to let Mr Obama to hang onto the bust for a further four years, the White House said: "Thanks, but no thanks."

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Mar 2009 07:59

But when British officials offered to let Mr Obama to hang onto the bust for a further four years, the White House said: "Thanks, but no thanks."

Why not send the bust to Pakistan, they deserve to keep a piece of UK and Chruchil.

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Mar 2009 09:26

The Lahori (or should it be Bradfordabad award) goes to:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... E2phyog0uA

Writing in Wednesday's Guardian, Fletcher recalled how the England tour party he took to Pakistan in 2005/06 had been criticised for the "presidential" level of security surrounding their trip, with roads to stadiums cleared and lined with armed guards.

"It provided some comfort at least," he wrote. "Nothing is 100 percent but you sure as hell want that percentage to be as high as possible in your favour.

"India is different. The traffic is often so bad in the big cities where a lot of the cricket is played that the coach can move along only slowly at times, which turns it into a sitting duck for terrorists.

Fletcher added: "There is nothing stopping a tuk-tuk pulling up alongside and detonating a bomb. I would be very nervous because that kind of attack is much easier to carry out in India -- and these guys can attack when they like."

Pietersen and Flintoff are among 11 English players bought at last month's IPL auction.

So, his logic is : Traffic heavy in India and so easier to target buses!!!

By "aspiring Paki" Fletcher's logic, Londonistan should be avoided as it has tall buildings which could be targeted by civilian planes like in 9/11.....

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Mar 2009 09:32

The Lahori (or should it be Bradfordabad award) goes to

He speaks from experience. It is Londonistan logic. They prefer to get their bus tops blown and thus fear a side attack.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 05 Mar 2009 10:06

Scottish Police put Muslim Needs First

http://inthefrozennorth.wordpress.com/2 ... o-muslims/

Gosh, wouldn't want anyone to get frustrated or radicalized!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Mar 2009 10:46

How UK always plays second fiddle as America calls the tune

By Eric Waugh
Tuesday, 3 March 2009
There will be much humbug talked and written this week while the Prime Minister is in Washington.

It is two years now since the Americans refused to release their video of the US Air Force's disastrous mission in Iraq which killed a British soldier.

It reminds us that, when the chips are down, Churchill's ‘special relationship' may have to take a back seat. Although Winston coined the phrase after the Second World War — in 1946 — it really dates from five years earlier when Britain faced a risk of starvation from the fleets of German U-boats lurking beneath the Atlantic. Churchill wanted the 50 rusting old destroyers the Americans had laid up in their naval yards — and got them, so that he could keep the submarine wolf packs from his vital food convoys.
'

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 05 Mar 2009 16:40

Churchill wanted the 50 rusting old destroyers the Americans had laid up in their naval yards — and got them, so that he could keep the submarine wolf packs from his vital food convoys.

But those 50 rusting destroyers were not free. This was Lend Lease

Wikipedia....
In exchange, the US was granted land in various British possessions for the establishment of naval or air bases, on ninety-nine-year rent-free leases, on:

* Newfoundland (today part of the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador).
* Eastern side of the Bahamas
* Southern coast of Jamaica
* Western coast of St. Lucia,
* West coast of Trinidad (Gulf of Paria)
* Antigua
* British Guiana (present day Guyana) within fifty miles of Georgetown.

The agreement also stipulated Britain's acceptance of the US proposal for air and naval bases rights in:

* The Great Sound and Castle Harbour, Bermuda
* South and eastern coasts of Newfoundland

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 05 Mar 2009 17:47

What about Diego Garcia? While it became a US base during the cold war, was some such deal with UK invoked to get the island?

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 06 Mar 2009 04:04

Was 'Lady Macbeth' behind Barack Obama's snub of Gordon Brown?

The Brits basking in pakiness and poodledom....now blaming Obama's snub of Brown on Michelle Obama's racist streak....

On US radio's Garrison show today, I was asked for my reaction as a true born Englishman to President Obama's double insult - first the sending back of the Winston Churchill bust, then his snub to Gordon Brown. "Tough one. Really tough one," I said, torn - as most of surely are - between delight at seeing Brown roundly humiliated, and dismay at having the special relationship so peremptorily, cruelly and bafflingly ruptured.

We may just LURVE Michelle's fashion sense. But Michelle doesn't reciprocate our affection, one bit. Her broad-brush view of history associates Brits with the wicked white global hegemony responsible for the slave trade. Never mind that a white, Tory Englishman - William Wilberforce - brought the slave trade to an end. Judging by her record, Michelle does not make room for such subtle nuance.

Dunno abt Michelle but my opinions about the $hitain, oops Britain, has met with reality fairly recently actually.

Ensoi the shoe-done-fraud.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Mar 2009 05:56

Wikipedia

In 1971, the plantations were closed because of the agreement between the United Kingdom and the United States to make Diego Garcia available to the U.S. as a military base. No payment was made as part of this arrangement, although it has been claimed that the United Kingdom received a US$14 million discount on the acquisition of Polaris missiles from the United States.[4] The agreement forbids any other economic activity on the island.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Mar 2009 06:02

I was asked for my reaction as a true born Englishman to President Obama's double insult

Britain's torture of Obama's grandfather

Hussein Onyango Obama, the president-elect's paternal grandfather, had served with the British army in Burma during the second world war and later found work back in Kenya as a military cook.

During two years' detention he was subjected to horrific violence, according to the story's authors, Ben Macintyre and Paul Orengoh. Tortures inflicted on Kenyan prisoners sometimes involved such barbaric implements as "castration pliers". "The African warders were instructed by the white soldiers to whip him every morning and evening till he confessed," Sarah Onyango, 87, tells the Times.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Mar 2009 06:08

Drain Britain's arrival at Karmic redmtion point. Need more parasites from pakistan ?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Mar 2009 06:11

Britain's Bad Karma account is almost full, and its deeds are coming back to haunt them, be it Talibanization of UK, or the Ascendancy of the Slaves, or the gathering economic clout of the Coolies.

Ab tera kya hoga re Kaliya?

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 06 Mar 2009 06:48

Telling the difference between the way things are, and the way that one would like them to be is always the real challenge. When the difference between wishes and reality get too wide youre in the realm of fantasy. That applies both to the media, and some of the comments here.

There's not much difference between the Telegraph's disdain for Obama and Brown partnership, and sections of the Guardian's disgust for the Bush-Blair agenda. When they dont like the particular agenda, they tend to project a dysfunctional, failing relationship, implying a failed agenda. Of course its mostly highly selective wish fulfilment. Those who chose to disregard these factors in coverage will be terribly disapointed by future developments.

Clinton had a huge problem with John Major at the time of his election, given the Conservative assistance to the Bush the elders election campaign (ie mining UK archives for dirt on Clinton's time as an Oxford Rhodent), and that manifested itself in difference over Northern Ireland. Clinton was reported to have laughed when askd about the 'Special Relationship'. Yet nothing really changed. In particular, once Blair was elected, both ruling parties were on the same page.

What it boils down to in the end is how closely the agendas intermesh - in terms of major political shifts the UK is sometimes ahead of the US; Thatcher was elected before Reagan, and Brown came to power before Obama. The Obama Democrats largely share the worldview of Brown Laborites, and they will depend on each other to succeed.

For those who forgot -the Brown-Obama agenda was largely agreed on and laid out during his visit to the UK in July, well before the election - that's when the two of them had their long walks together.

The US-UK relationship is based on integrated interests deriving out of a shared history that goes back to the formation of the American colonies, and that has included cross-cutting ties that go beyond race or ideology.

People love to make an enormous fuss out of the occasions when the US-French relationship is at its most contentious; De Gaulle's last 4 years, and Chirac's last 4 years. Yet even at its most strained, both maintained a formal alliance structure, and actively searched for common ground.

Storms in the teacup. In the end its the depth of shared economic interests, the depth of mutual intelligibility between political cultures, and a knowing who you can rely on in the worst times that matters the most.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 07 Mar 2009 02:19

difference between wishes and reality get too wide youre in the realm of fantasy. That applies both to the media, and some of the comments here.

Whatever happened to the stiff upper lip?

a knowing who you can rely on in the worst times that matters the most.

The world hasn't seen the worst of times yet. I'd reserve judgment but then what would moi know....

In any case, the above polemic doesn't detract from the point that karma can be and will be a beach for UKstan. To know just how deep in glory UKstan is, know that even death offers no escape from Karmic consequences. The ancient Indians figured out that Karma is not a law of nature, it is nature itself. Aah, but then, what would 'em yindooze know?

Elsewhere, the show must and does go on....

Britain's Business Secretary Mandelson Attacked With Green Custard...

The shock and the horror.... green and slimy indeed...

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 07 Mar 2009 05:12

VS,

I think its pretty evident that all actions have consequences, and that people and groups can get themselves in to a terrible mess.

I would be reluctant however about making confidant assertions about the exact nature of the universe's moral calculus with regard to the nation or the state. Have Mongolians as a whole suffered particularly greatly for the millions slaughtered by Genghis Khan and Hulegu Khan? What terrible things did the India do to earn its previous 1,000 years of hardship? There are no satisfactory, consistant moralistic answers to these sorts of questions.

What I have seen in life, and in history is that the universe most of all punishes groups and individuals who do not respect reality - those who spend too long distracted by anger, greed, hatred, pride, shame, complacency, fear or any such emotion pay for it in spades. The 'Yindoo' Chanakya certainly knew what he was talking about there.

p.s. The press in the UK has always been the most entertaining forum for the usual political battles.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 07 Mar 2009 05:48

Should Britain give the Koh-i-noor back to India?

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 07 Mar 2009 06:08

Johann,

What I have seen in life, and in history is that the universe most of all punishes groups and individuals who do not respect reality - those who spend too long distracted by anger, greed, hatred, pride, shame, complacency, fear or any such emotion pay for it in spades. The 'Yindoo' Chanakya certainly knew what he was talking about there.

How long is too long? Just wondering.

Besides, pendulum had swung too far the other way.

In my list of nations that have most harmed India and Indians, Ukstan ranks right up there alongside its protege, Pakistan. Its a viewpoint that is only now going mainstream among the great Indian Middle class. It was sought to be suppressed and stamped out by the brown elites the Brits left behind. India's past, her rich cultural and historical heritage, what shiv would call the Indian narrative, was suppressed too long under British influence. We are only now starting to recover, regain and relive what our ancestors knew all along.

I see no reason to not be sceptical about Ukstan and UKstanis in general. They have a past record w.r.t India that apalls me the more I learn about what they did and how well they hid it having folks like me think they were not so bad at all, after all.

What I have learned is that the universe punishes most those who forget their past (and thereby that of others' as well). We have ended up forgiving the past oppressors by default. We are now distant enough from 1947 to revisit it all without going overboard.

Yindia is only now recovering what she had lost in historical perspective. That process is all important. And we cannot have modern day Macaulays derailing it again.

Yup, and while we banter, UKstan continues to shelter, with impunity and immunity, fugitives from the Indian justice system on its shores. And continue to rake up J&K issue which it helped create. And support TSP. And handover Afghania to a 'good taliban' under izloo's influence.

But that's a whole other story.

/Have a nice day.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 07 Mar 2009 06:29

VS,

How long is too long? As soon as the line between emotions and interests, or wishes and reality begin to blur its too long.

Punishment at the state level is ultimately a tool used for changing current undesirable behavior. If you can wield it in a way that is serves your interests and doesnt ruin you, then good for you.

If you want punishment purely for the sake of historical revenge, the 'natural' conclusion to a narrative of victimhood, well that's usually a waste of time, energy and power, all of them being finite, and valuable resources. Those states that lost sight of this tend to pay dearly, blindsided by all of the other things going on in our very complicate world.

If on the other hand you expect the universe to hurt those you believe have hurt you at least equally or worse, you might be surprised at how long you have to wait. History is full of 'bad guys' who fail to sufficiently suffer in a way other might see as just.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 07 Mar 2009 06:40

Fair enough.

In any case, I don't expect India or Indians to take it upon themselves to be the instrument of Ukstan's just desserts. Oh no, we're not Bakis, thank you.

Just that if and when UKstan stumbles, (note, I add an IF), I wouldn't expect a whole lot of Indian folks to mourn. We know nobody will mourn our losses anyway.

My last in this pleasant exchange.

/Have a nice day.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 07 Mar 2009 07:10

vsudhir wrote:We know nobody will mourn our losses anyway.

I actually think this where the jihadi relationship with globalisation breaks down.

There was unprecedented public sympathy in the West for the people of Mumbai, support for the Indian security forces, and revulsion against the attackers for the December massacre. India is less and less some strange, far away place filled with people we dont understand. That is very bad for Pakistan. Business and popular culture are very powerful forces at the popular level, regardless of the geopolitical complications.

For my part I saw far, far more schadenfreude on the forum than in India at large in the aftermath of 7/7. Mostly I saw revulsion at an act of terrorism against civilians, and concern about what this meant for jihadi confidence.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 07 Mar 2009 07:29

Johann wrote: What terrible things did the India do to earn its previous 1,000 years of hardship? There are no satisfactory, consistant moralistic answers to these sorts of questions.

One believable "theory" for Indians' collective karma when they had to suffer could be that: Eons ago, they ate far more animals and plants than could have been apportioned as their normal share. That could also explain why upon realization of this greed -- motivated by the ideas of great thinkers like Buddha, Mahavira, Sankaracharya etc., they suddenly turned vegetarian in large numbers. But somehow trying to harness guilt when "possibly" none could exist, is after all what we know as Johann's googly. Sorry, better luck next time...

What I have seen in life, and in history is that the universe most of all punishes groups and individuals who do not respect reality

What an uber misnomer for "We will fck you if we can again, do what the fck you can." Yes saheb, we will. In retrospect, no saheb, we dont have to be waste our time on such ugly acts. The paki, LTTE, Khalistani, NE and other assorted Islamist pests that you have accumulated in your midst will do all that you ask for. If "Great" britain leaves us alone, we will fold our hands and thank dear Lord for delivering us from evil.

- those who spend too long distracted by anger, greed, hatred, pride, shame, complacency, fear or any such emotion pay for it in spades. The 'Yindoo' Chanakya certainly knew what he was talking about there.

If someone can somehow bring Chankia in a line that has anger, greed yada yada, how much khudkushi it brings him/her. This is the trick that pakis employ, somehow this forum is immune to that disease. Ensoi maadi.

Johann wrote: For my part I saw far, far more schadenfreude on the forum than in India at large in the aftermath of 7/7. Mostly I saw revulsion at an act of terrorism against civilians, and concern about what this meant for jihadi confidence.

Hehhe, we did have a census taken on this similar to the one that "Great" britain took to propagate their "martial" theory. Please do liberally cite them like you normally do. After all, its my word for your word, no?!

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 07 Mar 2009 07:41

Johann wrote:
vsudhir wrote:We know nobody will mourn our losses anyway.
I actually think this where the jihadi relationship with globalisation breaks down.

There was unprecedented public sympathy in the West for the people of Mumbai, support for the Indian security forces, and revulsion against the attackers for the December massacre. India is less and less some strange, far away place filled with people we dont understand. That is very bad for Pakistan. Business and popular culture are very powerful forces at the popular level, regardless of the geopolitical complications.

For my part I saw far, far more schadenfreude on the forum than in India at large in the aftermath of 7/7. Mostly I saw revulsion at an act of terrorism against civilians, and concern about what this meant for jihadi confidence.

Johann,

We have all seen how long the public sympathy lasted and in how much time Miliband came strutting around with his Kashmir advice. It was clear that the terrorist attack on Mumbai was simply swept out and that all the sympathy is hogwash.

What makes it different for India? when the evidence for bombay blasts in 1993 was given to US, it dumps the evidence to save Pakistan. When the terrorist attacks on Mumbai occur, we saw within 1 month, Miliband and his advice for helping Pakistan. I dont see any difference, so pardon me if I take what you said with a bagfull of salt and that UK and US are not working exclusively for geopolitical benefits.