Indian Military Aviation

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 06 Mar 2009 22:27

Shocking! Very Sad day for Indian Aviation. A great setback to the NAL, My heartfelt condolences to the families of the bereaved. RIP

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 06 Mar 2009 22:38

India retires last MiG-23BN strike aircraft

The Indian air force has retired the last of its Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23BN strike aircraft, bringing to an end a service life spanning almost three decades.

Introduced into Indian service in January 1981, the variable-geometry MiG-23 experienced combat use during an April 1984 campaign to secure the Siachen Glacier, and participated in the Kargil conflict from May 1999.

India's final MiG-23 sortie was flown by its 221 Sqn at Halwara airbase on 6 March, with the air force saying the type had logged more than 154,000 flight hours in national service.

Chief of air staff Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major hailed the MiG-23's "very potent offensive potential" during a phasing-out ceremony at Halwara. "It had tremendous thrust, but its handling characteristics at high angles of attack were tricky, to say the least," he said. "It is inevitable that these aircraft will be replaced by more modern platforms."

MiG-23s remain in the inventories of 13 nations following India's retirement of the type, says Flight's MiliCAS database, with the largest fleets held by Syria, Libya, Cuba and North Korea, respectively.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 06 Mar 2009 22:49

MIG 23 fighters phased out of IAF
http://www.newkerala.com/topstory-fullnews-105772.html

New Delhi, Mar 6 : The MiG-23 BN of Indian Air Force (IAF) retired today after 28 years of glorious service to the Nation.

A befitting farewell in the form of a 'phasing out ceremony' was held at its last home, No. 221 Squadron at Air Force Station Halwara. The ceremony was presided over by the Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major.

Wing Commander YJ Joshi and Sqn leader TR Sahu of 221 Sqn flew the aircraft on its last flight. The Air Force station Halwara had become home to No.221 Squadron ever since they converted to MiG-23 BN in February 1982. 27 years on, No.221 Squadron is lone Squadron with MiG-23 BN on its inventory.

The squadron known as the 'Valiants' was formed on 1963 at Barrackpore under he command of Sqn leader N Chatrath with 22 officers. It was then a part of the 55 Bengal Auxillary Air Force Squadron. Initially equipped with Vampire, Spitfire and Hurricane aircraft, it assumed the mantle of an operational unit when selected to support Indian Army's blitzkrieg advance in East Bengal during December 1971.

The 'Valiants' entered the Swing Wing era with the induction of MiG-23 BN in IAF on 24 Jan 1981 as a result of the IAF's need for Tactical Air Strike Aircraft in the late 1970s. This single seater ground attack aircraft was the result of Mikoyan Design Bureau's radical approach to incorporate variable geometry wings in the aircraft, a swing wing concept to compromise on the conflicting requirement of high speed flight with good low speed handling.

An IAF test pilot team led by Wing Commander Philip Rajkumar had test flown and evaluated the MiG-23 BN at Lugovaya in April - May 1979 after which the Cabinet Committee for Political Affairs (CCPA) cleared an acquisition of 95 MiG-23 BNs.

Eight Pilots, nine engineering officers and 55 airmen of IAF left for Soviet Union on 01 Sep 1980 for conversion training on MiG-23 variable sweep fighters. The aircraft were then transported to HAL facility at Ozar near Nasik where they were assembled, test flown by Soviet pilots before being handed over to the IAF on 20 Jan 1980. The first IAF unit to be inducted with these Swing Wing fighters was No. 10 Squadron.

The aircraft got its first taste of operation on 04 April 1984 when the Squadron was alerted for the launch of 'Operation Meghdoot' for securing the Siachen Glacier in Northern Ladhakh. Intensive flying began in Kashmir Valley, the Mig-23 BNs were employed to the limits, flying in the mountainous region by day and night. In 1985 MiG-23 BN got the unique distinction of being the first fighter aircraft ever to cross Banihal Pass in J&K region by night.

On May 25, 1999, 'Operation Safed Sagar' was launched. The Indian Air Force was to commence offensive air action at first light of the next morning. The MiG-23 BNs were launched into action targeting enemy positions at Tiger Hill with 57 mm rockets and 500 Kg bombs.

The ensuing seven weeks from 26 May and 15 July saw the squadron fly 155 attack missions more than those during December 1971 operations and accounted for 28 percent of total load drop and 30 percent of all missions flown in that area.

During the Kargil conflict this aircraft had the distinction of being the single aircraft type to fire the maximum weapon load over the dizzy heights of Dras and Kargil. The MiG-23s have had flown more than 154000 hrs in the service of the nation.

IAF's Mig-23 BN fades away into glory
http://www.newkerala.com/topstory-fullnews-105745.html

Halwara, Ludhiana, Mar 6 : Fighter jets like air warriors, can't go on for ever.

How true these words were as one watched the MIG-23 BN, the 'swing wing' ground attack fighter, bid a final farewell to the Indian Air Force (IAF) and entering history after 28 years of glorious service to the nation.

The IAFs Squadron 221 christened as the Valiants today flew the MIG-23 jets on their final sortie over this air base, which had become a home to Valiants ever since they converted to MIG-23 fighters in January 1981.

''They retire today with dignity in pristine shape, almost as good as they were when new,'' Chief of the Air Staff Air Marshal F H Major said as he alongwith other officers watched the MIG-23 aircrafts being towed to hangars on their final journey.

''While there is thunder and pride in their prime, they fade away with quiet dignity when the time comes,'' the Air Marshal said, after witnessing an aerial display of this deadly fighter.

''Having witnessed this solemn ceremony where we formally retire one of our very formidable assets, one is overwhelmed by an indescribable feeling, pride tinged with sadness,'' the Air Chief said while addressing officers and other ranks of the IAF.

Present on the occasion were Air Marshal Naik, the Vice-Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Barbora, AOC-in-C, Western Air Command, Air Marshal Bhangu, Commodore Commandant of ''The Valiants''.

The MiG-23 BN entered the Indian Air Force with an awesome reputation. It was the most powerful single-engined fighter in the world and was of a revoluntionary design with a variable wing sweep and air intake, and a very complex weapon delivery system, that was fairly advanced for its times. It gave the IAF a tremendous boost in its capability and the airmen had to get used to the tremendous roar of it's R-29 engine.

These fighter jets also played havoc with the surfaces of the runways of IAF stations.

The Mig-23-BN was evaluated by then Wing Cdr Philip Rajkumar at Lugovaya in April-May 1979 and formally inducted into the IAF in 10 Sqn on January 1, 1981. They flew over Rajpath on Republic Day in 1981.

This phasing out ceremony was witnessed by the 'original eight' pilots of the IAF who first flew this aircraft.

The MiG-23 BN had always demanded respect and expertise. Whilst being immensely capable, it was also not easy to fly. It had tremendous thrust, but its handling characteristics at high angles of attack were tricky.

In th words of Air Marshal Major, landing the BN was difficult and many a reputation lay in tatters around this aircraft. ''It separated the men from the boys and has been the stuff of many bar room yarns,'' he said.

Final touchdown for IAF's MiG-23 fighter jets
http://www.indiasnews.net/story/474698

Friday 6th March, 2009 (IANS) It was a nostalgic moment for the Indian Air Force (IAF) Friday as it phased out its MiG-23 BN 'swing wing' ground attack fighter jets here after 28 years of glorious service and flying more than 154,000 hours.

As Wing Commander Y.J. Joshi and Squadron Leader T.R. Sahu of the No.221 Squadron flew the aircraft from this airbase in Punjab, many eyes went moist. Present at the phasing out ceremony were the IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major and Air Marshal N. Chatrath, under whose command the squadron known as 'Valiant' was formed in 1963.

Over the years, the No.221 Squadron had become the lone squadron with MiG-23 BN on its inventory.

The 'Valiants' entered the 'swing wing' era with the induction of MiG-23 BN in the IAF Jan 24, 1981 as a result of the force's need for tactical air strike aircraft in the late 1970s and to counter the Paksitan's then newly acquired F-16 fighter aircraft.

The jets, renamed in the IAF as Vijay (victory), were designed to replace the ageing fleet of MiG-21.

This single seater ground attack aircraft, which was brought from the erstwhile USSR, has a 'swing wing' concept to compromise on the conflicting requirement of high-speed flight with good low speed handling.

The aircraft got its first taste of operation with the aircraft April 4, 1984 when the squadron was alerted for the launch of Operation Meghdoot for securing the Siachen Glacier in northern Ladakh.

'Intensive flying began in Kashmir Valley, the Mig-23 BNs were employed to the limits, flying in the mountainous region by day and night. In 1985, the MiG-23 BN got the unique distinction of being the first fighter aircraft ever to cross Banihal Pass in Jammu and Kashmir region by night,' an IAF official said.

On May 25, 1999, Operation Safed Sagar (Operation White Sea) was launched during the Kargil conflict. The IAF was to commence offensive air action at first light of the next morning. The MiG-23 BNs were launched into action targeting enemy positions at Tiger Hill with rockets and bombs.

'The ensuing seven weeks from May 26 and July 15 saw the squadron fly 155 attack missions more than those during December 1971 operations.

'During the 1999 Kargil conflict, this aircraft had the distinction of being the single aircraft type to fire the maximum weapon load over the dizzy heights of Drass and Kargil,' the official added.

Most of the IAF's MiG-23s had already been phased out. Its superior version the MiG-23

MF was phased out in 2007.

Of the four squadrons the IAF had - over 70 aircraft - half of them were lost in air crashes and other accidents.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Mar 2009 23:16

Why is the mortality rate of pilots so high in IAF?? Every year we hear of atleast 2-3 such incidents.

Any AF would be proud if they have only 2-3 attritions per year!!!!

Kindly google up on attrition ratios and check out where India stands.

Of the four squadrons the IAF had - over 70 aircraft - half of them were lost in air crashes and other accidents.

Is this true? Pretty unimpressive safety record if true.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 06 Mar 2009 23:49

IAF acquired 90 Mig-23BNs, 15 UMs and 45 MFs.

info on Mig-23 attrition
http://www.warbirdsofindia.com/Crashes/ ... atesall=ON
33 lost from 1983 to 2008.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 07 Mar 2009 01:30

Unfortunate news. Saras crashed.

http://www.livemint.com/2009/03/0621523 ... r-the.html

skher · Post by **skher** » 07 Mar 2009 02:18

Cybaru wrote:Unfortunate news. Saras crashed.

http://www.livemint.com/2009/03/0621523 ... r-the.html

Despite a civil aviation boom in India and airlines buying passenger planes from Boeing Co. and Airbus SAS, the country does not have a strong manufacturing base. Saras is only the second plane after Hansa—a two-seater trainer aircraft—that is being developed locally. NAL is also working on designing a 70-seat passenger plane called the RTA-70 for regional transport.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/3-de ... 234783.cms

BANGALORE: A light transport Saras aircraft crashed at 3.50 pm on Friday near Bidadi, 40 kms from Bangalore, killing its three pilots. (Video)

Charred bodies of Wing Commander Praveen, Wing Commander Shah and Squadron Leader Ilayaraja were retrieved from the wreckage of the aircraft which was completely destroyed in the accident, police said.

The aircraft was second prototype of Saras and was on its test flight schedule, a top official of state-run National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) said.

"The aircraft lost control and crash-landed near Bidadi," he said adding, "We lost three crew members". The crew members were experienced persons drawn from Air Force.

On the cause of the crash, he said, "It is too early to say.... An inquiry would be conducted". The aircraft, which is an 8 to 14-seater, was on its 49th test flight.

On whether the crash was a setback to the Saras project, he said, "It should not have happened...Yes there will be a setback... but we need to move forward and see what has to be done".

Why does this happen to our transport-based projects? Saras had just cleared safety tests.
Airavat too had an unfortunate incident that led to its shutdown.

Hopefully,the black box will give us answers that would ensure history is made and such a tragedy does not repeat itself.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 07 Mar 2009 02:23

sum wrote:
Any AF would be proud if they have only 2-3 attritions per year!!!!

Kindly google up on attrition ratios and check out where India stands.

Veru true, more the sorties the greater the chances for crashes...It is the attrition rations we have to take into consideration....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Mar 2009 06:21

A krish wrote:Why is the mortality rate of pilots so high in IAF?? Every year we hear of atleast 2-3 such incidents. I hope the investigation team figures out what went wrong.

Welcome to Bharat -Rakshak forums. You are about 5 years out of date in your information.

The accident rate of the IAF used to be very high. It has now been brought down to a level compared with the best air forces in the world.

But only the USAF, IAF and some Western Air forces are "open and honest" about accidents that occur. Try and get the Cheeni air force to cough up the truth?

The other point is that some sir forces do very little flying - compared to the IAF which does a lot of flying.

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Mar 2009 10:54

Why does this happen to our transport-based projects? Saras had just cleared safety tests.
Airavat too had an unfortunate incident that led to its shutdown.

Hoping and praying that Saras doesnt go the Airavat way...

Btw, the CABS guys at AI-09 were virtually at my throat when i mentioned "Airavat" and they were insistent that the earlier AEW project was NEVER called Airavat!!!

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Mar 2009 11:38

Editorial in DH. Nice to see editorials dedicated to armed forces even when there is no crisis.
Link

Critical phase
"The choice of aircraft must be left to the planners."

The phasing out of the MiG-23 fighter aircraft on Friday from the Indian Air Force (IAF) suggests that our military future would enter a critical phase. These aircraft, which served for over two decades, were phased out in a planned manner stretching over a couple of years in order not to diminish the force’s operational efficiency. What is alarming in the coming decade is that around 500-600 aircraft would be phased out; the bulk of which would be the MiG-21s that constitute 14 squadrons. Over the next three years, eight MiG-21 squadrons would have to be phased out and by 2015 the remaining six squadrons would also exit the IAF. Similarly of the five MiG-27 squadrons, three would retire from service by 2012 and the remaining two by 2015. The next in line would be the MiG-29s by 2020 and the Jaguars by 2030. With this series of phase outs, the IAF — the fourth largest in the world — would appear to be vulnerable in the immediate future.

In this scenario, the saving grace is that the IAF would have 11 Sukhoi 30 MKI squadrons comprising 230 aircraft to offset some of these depletions. It is often argued that a single fourth generation Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft equals six MiG-21 fighter aircraft in terms of weapon payload, range and avionics. However there is no substitute for numbers given the geography and polity that shapes the Indian subcontinent.

The choice of these proposed aircraft should be left to military planners rather than allow extraneous actors to influence the decision.

skher · Post by **skher** » 08 Mar 2009 02:01

sum wrote:
Btw, the CABS guys at AI-09 were virtually at my throat when i mentioned "Airavat" and they were insistent that the earlier AEW project was NEVER called Airavat!!!

Awl right,the next project can be named Airavat/Praveen or Sanjay or Gajakarna(more auspicious)!

A Phalcon radome mounted on a Saras.By achieving this successfully,we do justice to the two incidents in one go.

Hopefully,the govt. would decide to make Saras a national project (is it possible for other than rail?), and makes safety the first priority.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 08 Mar 2009 02:11

http://www.hindu.com/2009/03/07/stories ... 911300.htm

NAL plans to manufacture regional transport aircraft

Special Correspondent

HYDERABAD: National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) proposes to make ‘regional transport aircraft’ with 70 to 90 seats in public-private partnership mode.

It is talking to almost all engine manufacturers for partnership.

The Government of India (GoI) is willing to support the programme, according to A.R. Upadhyay, Director, NAL. “While most of the aircraft will be manufactured with indigenous parts, the engines will be imported and joint-ventures and partnerships will be floated for a few other parts,” he said.

Dr. Upadhyay participated in an international seminar on manufacture of composite material organised by Fibreglass Industries Association of Andhra Pradesh here on Friday. A market survey indicated that there was a demand for 240-250 aircraft on the civil side and about 150 on the military side. The programme would bring down the manufacturing, acquisition and maintenance costs by 20-25 per cent.
Certification

The NAL began commercially supplying two-seater ‘Hansa’ training aircraft to flying clubs and aviation academies and sold 15 aircraft so far.

While the NAL’s design for ‘Saras’ 14-seat aircraft was approved, it was undergoing the process of certification. Partners for manufacturing and marketing in the private sector were yet to be identified.

The first rollout of ‘Saras’ would be scheduled within a year, said Dr. Upadhyay.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) gave an expression of interest for 15 ‘Saras’ aircraft and the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will manufacture them at its Kanpur unit.

A memorandum of understanding will be signed shortly. The IAF has placed an order for 20 units of ‘Tejas’ light combat aircraft (LCA).

All these aircraft will have carbon fibre (made up of composites) as a material in the components, including the fuselage, due to which the weight of the vehicles will come down to a large extent. Dr. Upadhyay said HAL would set up a carbon fibres plant in NAL. The technology was transferred to Kemrock Industries and Exports Ltd, Baroda, for commercial manufacturing.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Mar 2009 04:22

From AW&ST

Flight test nears for India's indigenous engine effort as New Delhi dilutes national interest

Douglas Barrie and Neelam Matthews

India is planning to fly the baseline variant of its Kaveri turbofan engine on a Russian Illyushin Il-76 testbed within the next 3-4 months, even as it prepares to effectively re-launch the engine, drawing on Snecma M88 core to improve overall performance.

The Kaveri is India's entree into the combat aircraft turbofan market, but the drawn-out development has yet to provide an engine for the originally intended platform, the Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas).

Mohan Rao, the director of India's Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), which is developing the Kaveri, says the pending tie-up wtih Snecma is intended to address thrust and weight issues with the basic engine. Weight growth on the LCA and likely further weight increases on the planned Tejas Mk.2 are also pushing engine performance requirements. The Mk2 is intended to provide a marked increase in the capability over the initial LCA. Along with improved propulsion, the aircraft will likely have a more advanced radar and broader range of weaponry.

The LCA is due to enter service by the end of 2011, says India's Air Force Chief of Staff, Air chief Marshal Fali Homi Major: "We have ordered 20 aircraft to equip our first squdron. These will be to the initial operational standard. We have also ordered 10-12 two seaters as trainer aircraft." Major adds that the air force is looking to purchase five squadrons of the Mk2, with the aircraft pencilled to fly in 2013.

Irrespective of the two-decade-long development, the engine effort continues to recieve government support, at least as a research and development exercise as the basis for an eventual national turbofan engine propulsion capability. Rao says the plan is to the high pressure compressor and combustor from the M88, particularly the configuration developed for the ECO program and utilize these as part of a reconfigured Kaveri. A Safran official notes that the focus is on bringing M88 technology to the Indian program, not merely repackaging the Rafale fighter engine and disguising it as an Indian product.

The overall intent, Rao says, is to reduce the diameter of the engine core to "push the bypass ratio up", and he adds that the existing configuration is 150 kg over its intended design weight. While dry thrust performance meets the target specification, in reheat it is producign 3-4% below teh intended target. Overall, Rao says an additional 12-15% of thrust is rqeuired than was originally envisaged.

Four full Kaveri engines, and four engine cores have so far been manufactured, Rao says.The GTRE intent is still to fly the baseline Kaveri on an LCA, with integration on an airframe expected to begin later this year, and a first flight in 2010. The LCA development aircraft are powered by the GE F-404.

Although Safran has been identified as the industrial partner, a company official points out that the commerical terms have not yet been finalized. For the Tejas Mk2 the GE F414 and the Eurojet EJ200 are being considered as candidate engines. A request for proposals to purchase up to 99 engines is expected shortly. The Air Force wants the Tejas Mk2 to be available within 4 years. This implies that flight testing of the selected engine should begin by around 2012. Rao suggests an improved Kaveri derivative could also be available in this time frame. A decision on whether to pursue the GE F414 or the EJ200 option could be taken during the course of 2010. Both companies have carried out feasibility work on the suitability of their engines for the LCA. Final assembly of the selected engine would likely be carried out in-country.

The selection of the engine for the Tejas Mk2 potentially offers commonality and logistics advantages depending on the outcome of the air force's medium multi-role combat aircraft competition. The GE F414 is the engine for the Boeing F/A-18 E/F and for the Saab Gripen NG, while the EJ200 powers the Eurofighter Typhoon. The M88 is used in the Dassault Rafale.

The decision to partner with the French on reworking the Kaveri was taken after approaching all the main Western and Russian combat aircraft engine manufacturers. Some declined to compete, with the final choice made between the French and Russian contenders. Rao says further altitude work is also pending using test cells at Russia's Central Institute of Aviation Motors. "In the next couple of months we wll go for full altitude testing at up to 15 km, including relights at upto 8 km."

The Il-76 flight-test campaign will likely last between five and six months, clearing the way for the integration and flight test of the original Kaveri design on the LCA in 2010. Rao is aware that with delays in the Kaveri program, and present performance limitations, the air force is keen to push ahead with an "off-the-shelf acquisition". He would also like to be able to offer to the air force the improved engine as a potential follow-on to an initial off-the-shelf purchase. He is also targeting the Defense Ministry's Aeronautical Development Agency's twin-engine Medium Combat Aircraft concept as anotehr eventual candidate platform for the new engine.

Discussing the reasons for the prolonged delays to the Kaveri development, Rao says that the challenge was underestimated, while inadequate resources- including skilled engineers, support infrastructure and finance- also hampered progress.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Mar 2009 07:34

Cross posted from Aero India thread

Rishirishi wrote:A question to all gurus here.

Most NATO countires are replacing their F-16's with JSF. Norway selected JFS over the Gripen, and Rafael and Eurofighter did not even bother to compete. My understanding is that the JSF will be a whole generation ahead of rest of the pack. From media I have learned that JSF can be offered to India, if it wants it. The JSF will be a reasonable fighter, as it is going to be produced in huge numbers.

So why not go for the JSF in large numbers. At the same time, I am sure India can purchase the MKI's as a stop gap mesure.

IMO you are missing the hidden text here. Your idea would be good for buying imported shoes as a stop gap measure, but not JSF

Go to Google uncle and see how many countries are sharing the pie of JSF design and production. You have a bunch of industrially advanced nations who have got together to produce and advanced aircraft that they are all going to buy. The cost comes down for them somewhat provided all of them buy it and all of them make it a success.I f countries outside this collaborative group buy the plane - so much the better - the plane becomes less expensive for the countries who collaborated to design and build it. If they could get even one bakra country to buy the JSF it would be a shot in the arm that would boost reputation and sales and bring down the costs for the original countries that decided to collaborate. A bakra like India with huge orders would give the collaborating countries plenty of cheer as it would make the JSF cheap for them, but it would not improve India's technological capability at all because we would be buying the finished product.

IMO buy the JSF is the worst possible thing India could do - although there would be many countries willing to pay bribes and kickbacks to make this happen.

The JSF has the US and UK as "Level I" partners
Italy and Netherlands are "Level II" partners
Australia, Canada, Denmark, Norway and Turkey are "Level III" partners.
Israel and Singapore are "Security Cooperation Partners"

Is it any surprise that Norway has selected JSF over Gripen?

Now the JSF is being touted as 1 or 2 generations ahead of anythuing else.

Let me play a little halo-busting game here. Please don't mock me - I am merely going to state the truth. The JSF and LCA are similar in the following ways:

1) The JSF and LCA are not yet in active squadron service
2) The JSF and LCA are both being touted as great leap in technology for the nation that manufactures them
3) Nobody really knows how well each of these aircraft will cope or behave in a real life scenario taking part in mixed battles will a variety of adversaries. Only predictions and projections can be made.

Now just imagine for a moment that the JSF has some flaw that makes its capabilities somewhat less than advertised.

Do you think that the nations that are collaborating for the JSF will ever reveal that to anyone? Do you think any of these people will admit and say there is a problem? That would be suicide. Not because they cannot correct the defect - but because it would give the JSF (which has been hyped up so much) such a bad reputation that it would not sell so well and its costs would remain high for the nations who have agreed to take the risk of buying the JSF.

India, which has NO stake in the JSF would only help make it cheaper for other countries and pay them money to make themselves and their technology stronger even as we swallow and accept and defects and pre-conditions that the JSF may come with.

One of the biggest errors that I see being made by Indians on BRF is the assumption that buying aircraft is like buying shoes, perfumes or even cars. In the case of shoes, perfumes and cars - you get the full benefit of the item you buy - as the cost of making some manufacurer/seller very rich.

In the case of fighter aircraft blind import leads to the following consequences

It costs so much that we will spend a huge percentage of the budget on it
It will make the seller nations much more rich
It will take away money and jobs from researchers and manufacturers in India
It will provide more money and jobs to manufacturers and researchers in the seller nations
It will make the seller nations economy stronger while subsidizing their military
It will suck money out of the Indian economy even as it makes Indian defence susceptible to sanctions and the political will of the seller nations.

This interlinking of economy, industry, defence and geo-politcs is so complex that most Indian jingos DO NOT understand the linkage and tend to innocently ask why we should not buy the products with the best and shiniest brochures. So this question is asked time and time again.

Another thing that is not understood is that China had the same issues as India - just as I have listed above. But they decided against high technology but went in for mass copying. Right from the 60s up until the early 90s Chinese technology was rubbish - but Chinese defence was strong due to investment in nuclear weapons. It is only lately that Chinese tech has got better. But even so - Indian Aircraft tech is ahead of China in some ways. China of course has made some nifty collaborative moves. Any guesses why China is not trying to buy the JSF? They might want to steal technology -but that is a different issue.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 08 Mar 2009 19:46

Shiv
Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I have also read reports speculating weather the JSF actually will be produced in the anticipated numbers (like the raptor). Any way, the plane will not be available before 2015 and onwards to the tier 1 partners. It is of course impossible to evaluate a paper tiger. It is also a quesion of how advanced of a version IAF may recieve.

On the other hand, India must also consider the possiblility of JSF becomming a sucess and meeting its parameters. Saudi Arabia together with other middle eastern states will of course try to prochure it. Which effectually mean that some Pakistani pilots will be tasked to fly them and that is where the threat to India lies.

If India gets hold of the JSF, then IAF will have a desisive edge over China.

I feel that it must be possible to join the group, and participte in the development. But India will have to dingle a 200+ order. Also India could help to push the costs down.

At strategic leve, my feeling is that Indians seem to underestimate the value of Indian partnership,for the west. With China growing, the "GORA" world is feeling the pressure. Millions of backpakers have travelled in India, and feel a kind of a "connection" (particularly true for Israelis). Some of these people are in key position. India is Englsih speaking and is identified with people like Gandhi. Hence India is the KEY to a multipolar world.
Getting India off the hook of NPT is no joke. Many think the US helped India becasue of economic reasons or becasue of a desire to influence the Indian Nuclear setup. I think the real reason is becasue the west can not afford to let India fall behind.
That is why I think India can get good deal on the JSF.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 08 Mar 2009 20:28

India to have its own Air Force One soon

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 08 Mar 2009 20:45

I feel that it must be possible to join the group, and participte in the development. But India will have to dingle a 200+ order. Also India could help to push the costs down.

The thing is India doesn't want FFGA to another MMRCA competition.
India would want more participation in terms of development and technology. thats the reason India is going for PAK-FA. Also the level the TOT access and kind of cuztomization India would demand is unlikely to met by US for F-35. This is assuming India & US sorted our EUM concerns. Govt wants Industry to do something more than assembling CKD/SKD kits and maintaining them.

on the plus side, as you said it would be huge advantage against our enemies. Neverthless it would remain as option if Russian PAK-FA or Indias MCA program doesn't work out due to any reason provided Indo-US relations are ok in future.

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Mar 2009 20:48

VinodTK wrote:India to have its own Air Force One soon

Cant imagine the amount of bugs which will be fitted in the plane.

The Chinese had unearthed a mountain full of them and had cried foul when taking delivery of their "air-force one"...

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 08 Mar 2009 20:50

sum wrote:
VinodTK wrote:India to have its own Air Force One soon
Cant imagine the amount of bugs which will be fitted in the plane.

The Chinese had unearthed a mountain full of them and had cried foul when taking delivery of their "air-force one"...

would DRDO be able detect bugs and do something abt it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2009 20:54

it was best if we had just purchased a regular extra A321 for indian airlines and *then*
converted it locally by fitting the interior in a new pattern. get DRDO/BEL to install stuff
and also pull in israeli vendor for ECM if need be under close supervision.

they will have to rip the plane apart now to get anywhere on bugs.

our idiot leaders just cant let go of factory fitted leather upholstery.

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Mar 2009 21:05

ajay_ijn wrote: would DRDO be able detect bugs and do something abt it.

Given that most of our detection equipment would be Amrikan(meaning it doesnt detect Amrikan bugs) or pretty old Russian stuff(meaning not updated to take on latest Amrikan bugs), highly doubtful that we would be able to unearth anything.

Would be very happy if DRDO has done some work on this (though havent come across and literature till now)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Mar 2009 21:13

from our ways of business unlike chinese, who would rip everything to do their usual "re-engineering" studies, is impossible. drdo has to have a mandate for this. some ddm nerd would throw up a big picture in some blog about how we went about and state dept will throw up humpteen laws to jack us up.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 08 Mar 2009 21:20

sum wrote:
ajay_ijn wrote: would DRDO be able detect bugs and do something abt it.
Given that most of our detection equipment would be Amrikan(meaning it doesnt detect Amrikan bugs) or pretty old Russian stuff(meaning not updated to take on latest Amrikan bugs), highly doubtful that we would be able to unearth anything.

Would be very happy if DRDO has done some work on this (though havent come across and literature till now)

So how do we solve the problem, what does Govt do generally about this. what will our chai biskoot babus do?

besides if DRDO tries to remove bugs and tamper with things, will US cry about it during their annual inspections.

also what if they are installed on things like AWACS or any communication equipment directly imported etc

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Mar 2009 21:43

Rishirishi wrote:
At strategic leve, my feeling is that Indians seem to underestimate the value of Indian partnership,for the west.

The problem may actually be worse than that. India may not have the technological capability to contribute meaningfully to the JSF program. We are behind financially, technologically, socially and developmentally - and keeping us at that lower level ensures that the people who are ahead can manufacture things that can be exported to nations like India.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Mar 2009 22:37

http://www.hindu.com/2009/03/08/stories ... 690500.htm ‘NAL will go ahead with Saras project’ .. “the purpose of lives the IAF lost will be served only when the Saras project is successful” was the reaction of the father of Wing Commander D.K Shah who died in the crash.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 08 Mar 2009 23:46

ajay_ijn wrote:The thing is India doesn't want FFGA to another MMRCA competition.
India would want more participation in terms of development and technology. thats the reason India is going for PAK-FA. Also the level the TOT access and kind of cuztomization India would demand is unlikely to met by US for F-35. This is assuming India & US sorted our EUM concerns. Govt wants Industry to do something more than assembling CKD/SKD kits and maintaining them.

on the plus side, as you said it would be huge advantage against our enemies. Neverthless it would remain as option if Russian PAK-FA or India's MCA program doesn't work out due to any reason provided Indo-US relations are ok in future.

No offense, but could someone tell me exactly what systems/components India is "developing" for the Pak-Fa/FGFA program? A partnership for me means neither Russians, nor Indians should be able to build the craft alone. If we are going to replace a few Russian systems by our own, then the Russians are self-sufficient and we are NOT. So the "participation" thing is ruled out.

F-35 as a contingency is also too costly. We should either go full swing without asking questions or technology, Or not for it at all.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Mar 2009 00:43

What is important is we need to replicate JSF naval variant to replace our harriers. VTOL like an helo can augment our naval forces to the top spot sharing khan and NATO forces. F35b is the most exciting contemporary a/c ever built, yet.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 09 Mar 2009 02:26

shiv wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:
At strategic leve, my feeling is that Indians seem to underestimate the value of Indian partnership,for the west.
The problem may actually be worse than that. India may not have the technological capability to contribute meaningfully to the JSF program. We are behind financially, technologically, socially and developmentally - and keeping us at that lower level ensures that the people who are ahead can manufacture things that can be exported to nations like India.

I think that was true to a certain extent. It was definately the case in 1980 and before. It was all about "controlling nations like India". Today the west has realised that the economical and technical lead is fast diminishing. It is only a matter of time, before nations like China, will be key players, perhaps even more influential then Uncle Sam. Also it is evident that India is going to be one of the premier nations for R&D. It sends shivers down the spine of western strategic thinkers, when they discover the extent that R&D is moving towards India. MNC's seem to have understood that key to future competative edge is not limited to outsourcing non core services. They also need economical ways to develop new products. It is slowly dawing uppon the western countries that India and China will probably surpass the west, in near futre.

Now the west is left with a new dilemma. What to do next. As they can't deny the rise of China, it is in their interest to have a counter to that country. The only country that is capable is India. That is why the west needs India today. Had this not been the case, US would never have allowed the nuclear deal. My take is that the west will allow a meaningful partnership in JSF and other advanced programmes.

I totally agree on the account of technological capabilities. India probably does not have a single technology that the west does not do at least as good. But India can get some lower level work, some of the Indian players can get subcontracts, some of the research can be moved to India, some of the western defence companies can invest in plants in India. Even if this is less compared to what Gripen has to offer, at least India will get its hand on the most capable fighter.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 09 Mar 2009 03:53

The JSF will be a reasonable fighter, as it is going to be produced in huge numbers. So why not go for the JSF in large numbers.

(apologies in advance to Rishi..don't shoot! )

By all means. The US economy needs the $$$T. But what will we do with the remaining paise in the Indian economy?

As I understand, the F-22 is now down to a cheap, cheap $160M a copy....without adding the factor of 3 overhead for foreign sales. The F-35 should be around $300M each. At Rs. 50 to the $, that's only .. (sorry, my madarssa math is not up to it)

Also, the JSF can be stationed at every Army base. So the "End-User Agreement" that is currently being "negotiated" now will allow US experts to "inspect" them at every such location. Look at all the additional beer and mosquito-repellant that can be sold at all these places.

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 09 Mar 2009 04:35

sum wrote:
VinodTK wrote:India to have its own Air Force One soon
Cant imagine the amount of bugs which will be fitted in the plane.

The Chinese had unearthed a mountain full of them and had cried foul when taking delivery of their "air-force one"...

indians seem to overestimate their importance on world stage. let them bug the indian-airforce-one, all they will hear is MMS asking permissions from sonia, or a future BJP prime minister snoring heavily. hey, if they can kidnap a senior director of RAW and bug the PMO's xerox machine, why we need to worry about indian-air-force-one?

indian PM does not spend a lot of time traveling by air anyway, locally they take the helicopter.

more importantly though, what to do about the israelis bugging the hell out of the AWACs, each FPGA, DSP, PowerPC, flash should be wiped clean and re-loaded with indian code, each DDR and DDR2, DDR4 should be repeatedly reloaded with random test pattern and see which ones are secretly powered by NiCAD batteries. each frequency should be re-calibrated and re-entered manually.

radar dome should be checked for reverse channel transmitters to israeli / american satellites. all seats, cargo spaces, crawl spaces, tool racks, tool chests, spare cabinets, oxygen masks, pilot joystick, breaks, sleeping quarters, refuelling pod, everything should be scanned with a sensitive instrument and continuosly scanned during flight. there are at least 3 transmitters (AKA "sensors") on the engine fuel cap, those should be replaced by new ones diretly from ukrain.

there could be microchips embedded in paint of the aircraft (solar powered of course) so a fresh coat of metallic paint is needed. This is what we get for not developing our own technologies on a war footing.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 09 Mar 2009 05:40

Gents here are the two articles that appeared in Air International and AFM on Migs in IAF service...

http://ifile.it/kwt5v69/mig_article_2_afm.rar

http://ifile.it/vig1cpn/mig_artilcle_1_ ... tional.rar

Enjoy

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 09 Mar 2009 11:55

ajay_ijn wrote:would DRDO be able detect bugs and do something abt it.

What do we understand by a bug? Is it only a snooping device?I guess bugs can be more evolved than that.

Imagine there could be bugs which not only provide the GPS coordinates of the plane when in flight (revealing the location), but also depending on the input it may receive, it might just disable the plane mid-flight causing it to crash?

If t'rrow an Indian PM is inimical to US(or the plane providing countries) interests, then all they need to do is wait for the PM to be airbone, send a disable command & watch the plane crash & burn with the liability of a PM exterminated.
Just alarmed thinking from my side

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 09 Mar 2009 15:47

Check the video at the Airforce website :http://www.indianairforce.nic.in/
Click the "play Video link" to see the video.

There is this one shot where the planes are flying over the hilly desert, with some white markings (text) written on the ground below. What are these white markings?
[Screenshot attached]

Also what does the pilot say at the very end?

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 09 Mar 2009 16:18

AdityaM wrote:Check the video at the Airforce website :http://www.indianairforce.nic.in/
Click the "play Video link" to see the video.

There is this one shot where the planes are flying over the hilly desert, with some white markings (text) written on the ground below. What are these white markings?
[Screenshot attached]

Also what does the pilot say at the very end?

http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17212958.jpg

That text is 'Touch the sky with glory',the pic is of leh airbase

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 2.jpg.html

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 10 Mar 2009 00:21

AdityaM wrote:
ajay_ijn wrote:would DRDO be able detect bugs and do something abt it.
What do we understand by a bug? Is it only a snooping device?I guess bugs can be more evolved than that.

Imagine there could be bugs which not only provide the GPS coordinates of the plane when in flight (revealing the location), but also depending on the input it may receive, it might just disable the plane mid-flight causing it to crash?

If t'rrow an Indian PM is inimical to US(or the plane providing countries) interests, then all they need to do is wait for the PM to be airbone, send a disable command & watch the plane crash & burn with the liability of a PM exterminated.
Just alarmed thinking from my side

From one Aditya M to another, please, you're making us look silly.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 10 Mar 2009 18:32

Saras project to continue.

Unfazed by the crash of its prototype 14-seater passenger aircraft, scientists will go ahead with the project to develop the country's first indigenous plane.

"The Saras project will continue, we will not shelve it," S K Brahmachari, Director General, Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) said. The second prototype of Saras civilian plane had crashed on Friday near Bangalore killing three IAF test pilots.

The aircraft built by National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) was completely destroyed in the accident. NAL is one of the 37 research institutes governed by CSIR. Brahmachari has held discussions with officers of the Indian Air Force and civil aviation authorties after the accident.

He said the prototype - I of the aircraft will be modified and converted to a prototype III by fitting the higher thrust Pratt and Whitney engines.

The Union Cabinet has already approved additional funds for the project as well as for developing a 70-seater passenger aircraft.

Brahmachari, who met scientists at NAL and relatives of the deceased pilots on Saturday, said that father of one of the pilots told him that completion of the project would be a fitting tribute to his son.

Brahmachari said that after the Cabinet nod, procurement has begun to build a Production Standards Aircraft (PSA) and some of the components may be diverted for the prototype III.

Saras was undergoing mandatory tests by Air-borne Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) as a part of the process of getting a Directorate General of Civil Aviation certification for operating in India.Saras, a multi-role light transport aircraft, is aimed at meeting the requirements of executive transport, air ambulance and other community services.

Two prototypes of the aircraft are currently flying. The first one had completed 126 flights logging around 70 hours. Both the prototypes had featured in Aero India shows.

On Friday last, the prototype II had successfully undertaken the relighting test with one engine switched off. It had climbed to a higher altitude but lost contact with the central tower. It had regained contact after about 3-4 minutes, thereafter it lost contact again.

The wreckage was found in an open area at Bidadi near Bangalore.

sum · Post by **sum** » 10 Mar 2009 18:37

Thank goodness for the positive attitude still being shown.

Hope we end up with a very successful SARAS...

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 10 Mar 2009 20:40

Vipul wrote:
He said the prototype - I of the aircraft will be modified and converted to a prototype III by fitting the higher thrust Pratt and Whitney engines.

Brahmachari said that after the Cabinet nod, procurement has begun to build a Production Standards Aircraft (PSA) and some of the components may be diverted for the prototype III.

One more prototype and then the PSA. Good News! Atleast the program continues..

The Union Cabinet has already approved additional funds for the project as well as for developing a 70-seater passenger aircraft.

Very Very Encouraging!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 Mar 2009 20:59

narayanan wrote:

As I understand, the F-22 is now down to a cheap, cheap $160M a copy....without adding the factor of 3 overhead for foreign sales. The F-35 should be around $300M each. At Rs. 50 to the $, that's only .. (sorry, my madarssa math is not up to it)

source?

the F-35's first examples are very costly, but the rest are not going to cost that much. as of now, the estimates hover around $100 million, not $300 million. the F-35 Program Manager himself is on record as having said that the price of the F-35 is not fixed- it all depends on which production batch the F-35 ordered will fit into. its all very complex and is probably designed to keep partner nations on tenterhooks, unable to make a decision in some other aircraft's favour..for eg. like the Norway decision in favour of F-35, on cost basis compared to Gripen NG. there is no way the Gripen NG costs more than the F-35 on unit cost or lifecycle cost, but somehow Norway was able to come to the opposite conclusion.