Su-30: News and Discussion

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ajay_ijn
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by ajay_ijn »

a)running and maintenance cost. it costs a lot to keep a big bird like the mki in the air
but then question comes like
Is it easier to induct new MMRCA than to order more MKIs? new fighter means everything should be new which would add to the costs. is that cheaper than buying n operating more MKIs?
especially considering we have twin engined fighters like Rafale, Super Hornet and Typhoon.
if we order more from HAL and keep production rate same production would run into 2017-18 by which time it would be only 10-15 years before the mki stops being state-of-the-art.
I am not so sure abt that, i mean every MMRCA contendor belongs to same generation as MKI and they will be under production untill 2017-18. also if we want state of the art then we can have updated version it with new avionics and armaments.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

MMRCA never made much sense to me anyway, beyond the days when it talked about buying more M2Ks. :wink:

given that IAF is still going through it means that points a and b are considered more important, as is apparent from my ordering. the pilot issue is a very serious one. don't take it lightly.
IAF probably thinks that in the long run the acquisition cost +running cost will work out well in favour of the MRCA chosen one.

MRCA is also about knowing the new concepts, especially from the west in-depth, a last infusion of new ideas and practice into the IAF and India's MIC, before both can become confident and competent enough to chart its own course w/o outside help.

but we are going OT here. :)
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Sajith_J »

andy B wrote: Sajith I highly reccomend you to read the respective pages for those jets on BR from which you will be able to get a very good idea of what is better...also for further info you can use google or wiki.

yes the MKI and the Pak Fa will be in service together however the PAK Fa will be going in first in order to sanitize and MKI will follow it up. See the MKI is very much like a strike eagle F15E its able to go in and hit targets and also defend itself against any air to air threats. Thus once the air space is reasonably clear (and I say reasonably bcoz compared to unkil's F-22 fighthing erstwhile old a$$ mig-21s, mig29s, and other slightly older jets and claiming supremacy the IAF will be facing the PLAAF and PAF both armed with reasonably modern fighters) the MKI will be going in to hit high value ground targets and help further sanitize airspace. JMT.
I did, but just to compare some specification doesn't mean it's equal to Mig 27 right? So what is needed to be a good striker? Some pages before somebody mentioned that Mki might be able to do the maritime strike role of Jags. Is that all?
Parijat Gaur wrote: And I am certainly not asking for spoon feeding. I have indeed researched on this topic and have personally felt that criticism of MKI's ground attack ability are baseless. There are basically 2 arguments given against MKI's ground fighting ability:
1. Su-30 was made for air superiority.
If you will read my thread, you will know my argument against it.
2. Su-30 can use only russian weaponry.
But as RahulM commented in the newbie thread, Russians have a counterpart to every western a2g weapon and MKI can use any one of them should we chose to do so.
So as you can see, I myself firmly believe MKI to be a very good strike fighter with incredible dog fighting capability. But I am but an amateur and may very well be wrong. So my basic reason for posting the thread was to ask the experts to educate me with valid reasons if they felt I was wrong.
That's exactly my point! It's often mentioned that Mki is an air superiority fighter, but that tells us nothing about it's a2g capabilities. If you just see the facts of payload, what weapon it can carry it seems to be quiet good in that role too. But just like you I wasn't sure about it.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Juggi G »

According to Russian Mafia Currently 116 Sukhoi-30MKI are in service.

Source : LINK
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by fanne »

116 is a good number. To put in perspective, we are half way there. Out of 230 total we have 116 as of now. Though I think with all the uncertainity with MMCRA, delayed Tejas, risk with Tejas MK2, M2000 delayed, having another 50-100 SU30MKI will not be a bad idea.
SU30MKI needed 2 pilots is a old news. IAF started like that, soon realized that a non pilot navigator was as effective. They made a special cadre of these people and recently graduated a lady navigator for SU30MKI. We should increase the order to a total of 400. That will cover many risks and give breathing space with other projects.

rgds,
fanne
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by dinakar »

fanne wrote:They made a special cadre of these people and recently graduated a lady navigator for SU30MKI.
Fanne, are you mentioning abt Suman Sharma who flew Mig-35 in aero india
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Fanne,

Nice. 400 such toys. MKI heaven. Now, only if we can add a galley + a cook - for those real long journeys.

All kidding aside, the Indian whatever - AF/MoD/whatever - seems to have a two sided decision making system - like the left and right brain. The MKI seems to be doing so well (touch wood) and the rest are all wallowing in the mud. Something is badly goofed up and needs to be corrected.

Does A'stan hold a AF day? We need to take the MKI there to show them the right stuff.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by ajay_ijn »

NRao wrote:Fanne,

Nice. 400 such toys. MKI heaven. Now, only if we can add a galley + a cook - for those real long journeys.

All kidding aside, the Indian whatever - AF/MoD/whatever - seems to have a two sided decision making system - like the left and right brain. The MKI seems to be doing so well (touch wood) and the rest are all wallowing in the mud. Something is badly goofed up and needs to be corrected.

Does A'stan hold a AF day? We need to take the MKI there to show them the right stuff.
Do you remember any MMRCA type competition, all the noise, publicity, promotions for selecting Su-30MKI? was it even compared any other fighter or was it single vendor bid. ofcoz in early 90s there was no internet or powerful media.

MOD/IAF did actually take many years to license produce the next air combat fighter after Mig-21Bis. i mean we did acquire Mig-23MF, Mig-29 and Mirage in 80s but none of them were mass produced. I guess its more due to balance of payment crisis.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by A Sharma »

Radar system rolls out in record time

Hyderabad: It was a long cherished dream that came true for Hyderabad Division when the first set of the Phase-III RLSU-30 MK radar system of Su-30 MKI was handed over to the Chief Resident Inspector and was cleared for fitment on aircraft on January 10,2009. This clearance came after 11 months of hectic processing, much before the scheduled time.

The RLSU-30 MK radar system is a part of the Aircraft Armament Control System intended for deciding all the problems of war applications,and works in conjunction with data processors to detect,select and track targets in the front hemisphere. The radar system includes state-of-the-art technologies and features like passive phased array, threshold detection, look-up,look-down, search and track while scan, etc.

RLSU Radar department of the Su-30 project completed the entire Phase III activities well before the scheduled time. The whole team worked together on a war footing and ensured that the entire activity was completed within 11 months.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by SanjibGhosh »

I think this is the best place for this document. Please read this. This is a nice analysis of F35 capability with respect to Su30mki and Su-35BM. This was by "WGCDR C. L. Mills, Air Combat Analyst, Air Power Australia".

Here is the link
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/5861/
Last edited by Gerard on 03 Mar 2009 03:48, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: copyright
NRao
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

I think this is the best place for this document. Please read this. This is a nice analysis of F35 capability with respect to Su30mki and Su-35BM. This was by "WGCDR C. L. Mills, Air Combat Analyst, Air Power Australia".
Since it is from "Australia", a land that has its own internal dynamics to purchase high end US ACs, their research is always tainted. No matter what. It has always been for some 10+ years. It is always that the Su-30 grows fangs .................... so, we need F-18s or F-22s or F-35s.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

ajay_ijn wrote:
Do you remember any MMRCA type competition, all the noise, publicity, promotions for selecting Su-30MKI? was it even compared any other fighter or was it single vendor bid. ofcoz in early 90s there was no internet or powerful media.
yes, the IAF compared the Su-30 (not MKI) with the Mirage-2000 and apparently the unit cost of the Su-30 was much lower. there was a MoD report or something of that sort that mentioned the details. you might still find it if you google it. But what were the other options then anyway ? the Typhoon wasn't anything more than a prototype, the same with the Gripen, American options didn't exist and the bad initial IAF experience with the MiG-29 meant that they rejected an offer for additional MiG-29s. some real visionaries in the IAF, MoD and Sukhoi saw the opportunity to create an uber-fighter based on technologies that Sukhoi was showcasing in the Su-35 (very different from the Su-35 you see today).
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by somnath »

yes, the IAF compared the Su-30 (not MKI) with the Mirage-2000 and apparently the unit cost of the Su-30 was much lower. there was a MoD report or something of that sort that mentioned the details. you might still find it if you google it.
Source? Very unlikely given the specs of the two aircraft...Further, the IAF would look at life cycle costs, not upfront costs...and the operating costs of a single seater would typically be lower..
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Mihir.D »

somnath wrote:
yes, the IAF compared the Su-30 (not MKI) with the Mirage-2000 and apparently the unit cost of the Su-30 was much lower. there was a MoD report or something of that sort that mentioned the details. you might still find it if you google it.
Source? Very unlikely given the specs of the two aircraft...Further, the IAF would look at life cycle costs, not upfront costs...and the operating costs of a single seater would typically be lower..
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html

Acquisition/Production Plans

The SU-30MKI is the first Russian aircraft designed in collaboration with a foreign customer. It was born when the IAF decided to acquire the Su-30MK and include modifications according to its needs. Its competitor was the Mirage-2000-5, an excellent multirole aircraft in its own right. It had the advantage over the Su-30 given that the IAF was extremely satisfied with the results from the Mirage-2000H. However, the SU-30MKI was found to be a lot cheaper than the Mirage-2000-5, which ultimately proved to be the deciding factor.


The mirage 2000-5 price last quoted was 50 million dollars whereas the MKI was being bought for 40 million dollars.I don't have the link to this but you can google for it.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Cain Marko »

Quick question for Gurulog:

The MKI is said to weigh 18.4 tons empty. MTOW is supposedly 38.8 tons. Max payload ~ 8 tons, Max fuel (all internal) ~ 10tons. So 18.4+8+10 = 36.4tons. So, unless my mathemajik is tainted by lahori laajic, about 2.4 tons are unaccounted for. Lets say, 400kg are lost in gun ammo, pilot weight, fluids. What about the other 2 tons? What am I missing?

Plus based on an excerpt posted on BR from the latest watson/camp book, the engines are more powerful than the ones for the vanilla flanker. Err, so what exactly is the thrust output of the MKI?

Too much mystery here.

CM.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

somnath wrote:
yes, the IAF compared the Su-30 (not MKI) with the Mirage-2000 and apparently the unit cost of the Su-30 was much lower. there was a MoD report or something of that sort that mentioned the details. you might still find it if you google it.
Source? Very unlikely given the specs of the two aircraft...Further, the IAF would look at life cycle costs, not upfront costs...and the operating costs of a single seater would typically be lower..
the concept of calculating life-cycle cost is new to the IAF. the previous tenders were mostly L1 tenders, where the lowest bidder won. thanks to Mihir D. you have the source you asked for as well. I'll still look around for the MoD report. it was a little more detailed.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Kartik »

while looking for that report on the Su-30 vs Mirage-2000, I came across this old report, dated Feb 11, 2000..BRFites will have a good laugh at how "experts" thought that the Su-30MKI was an overkill and that the IAF only required a fighter with an operational radius of 300 kms !! :D those "experts" seem to have really clammed up now that the MKI project was successful and the Air Dominance fighter is so highly respected.
link
UF govt bungled Sukhoi deal?
From Girja Shankar Kaura
Tribune News Service

NEW DELHI, Feb 11, 2000— Was the Indian Air Force (IAF) committed to buying a non-existent fighter aircraft in the Sukhoi-30MKI, the over Rs 6,300-crore contract for which the Cabinet approval was given at the time of the United Front government?

The question which had been bothering defence experts became relevant today after the Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal A.Y. Tipnis, said the multi-crore deal was likely to come under scrutiny in the probe ordered by the Defence Ministry.

Air Chief Marshal Tipnis said the deal would “certainly come under scrutiny and that the IAF would comply with whatever was asked for by the Central Vigilance Commission and the CBI.

Experts point out that in one of the most bizarre decisions on national security, the Government of India has committed over Rs 6,300 crore to buy hi-tech Russian aircraft, Sukhoi-30MKI, which were not only really required by the IAF but also do not exist.

For the staggering amount, the IAF, in the first few planes which arrived in the country, has been handed over simpler operational conversion trainers (SU-27 PU) as SU-30MKI. The aircraft demanded by India is still to be developed and through this deal India is funding Russia to develop an aircraft for it (India).

Experts say India never really required an aircraft like the Sukhoi-30 with a range of 1500 nautical miles when there was no change in the threat perception in the neighbourhood. As per the threat perception level, the IAF requires aircraft with an operational range of the existing 300 nautical miles, Investing in the Sukhois is only blocking the money which could have been used for other purposes.

A recent study carried out by a joint team of the IAF and the DRDO has pointed out that not only were there design deficiencies in the aircraft but in times of war it could actually be a sitting duck. The report points out that its platform was too large and that it had not been tested for its war capabilities before the contract was signed.

A closer look at the Sukhoi deal points out that too many conditions and principles were overlooked at the time of the signing of the deal. The deal smacked more of a “political will” rather than the “operational requirements” of the IAF. Of the Rs 6,330 crore about Rs 450 crore had been paid in advance even before the Cabinet Committee on Political Affairs endorsed the deal.

What is interesting is that India will initially receive some aircraft from Russia which will not be the ones demanded by the IAF. But after some years of being in operation, the aircraft will go back to Russia to be upgraded to the level of fighter jets for which the order was placed. The present SU-27 PU trainer aircraft will go back to Russia to be upgraded as SU-30MKIs.

As per reports, there are about 200 SU-27s in service with the Russian Air Force since the late eighties and with China since the early nineties. The aircraft was developed essentially as a long-range interceptor but with latent ground attack capability.

However, due to lack of funding by the Russian government and no orders from its air force, the multi-role version, which the IAF is to get, is yet to be developed. What the Sukhoi company did, in anticipation of orders, was to develop 30 trainers (SU-27 PU) It is from this batch that the first few aircraft have been sent to India.

Sources point out that the IAF has violated principles while going in for the Sukhois. Firstly, the need for establishing an air staff requirement (ASR) before ordering an aircraft was overlooked. Although the IAF claims that there is an ASR now, according to reports, it could only have been a cover up as such ASRs need around 10 years of work and cannot be made in two to three years as was done in the case of the Sukhois.

Secondly the principle of not to commit oneself to a combat aircraft until it has been fully developed and evaluated by the ASTE was also ignored. By no stretch of imagination can flying the SU-27 be considered as an evaluation of the SU-30MKI weapon system, considering the changes that are envisaged. In fact the IAF has committed itself to a weapon system that does not exist. As per the contract the air defence variant being supplied now will be modified to the multi-role SU-30 MK over a period of 10 years.

Thirdly the IAF forgot that the assured product support over the weapons system’s lifecycle is even more crucial than the weapon system itself. It is preferable to choose a lower performance system but with assured support, the sources say. Incidentally, Russian pilots have flown a mere 155 sorties in 84 hours to give the SU-30 the air-worthiness certificate.

Going into the chronology of the deal is also interesting. In December 1993, the then air chief, Air Chief Marshal S.K. Kaul had described the SU-27 family as irrelevant to the future plans of the IAF. However, by April 1994, Air Marshal Kaul had ordered the then Air Vice-Marshal S.R. Krishnaswamy, Vice-Chief of Plans, to evaluate the Sukhois. Unprecedented secrecy followed the preparation of the ASR and the evaluation report. The Operations Branch, which should have initiated the ASR was kept out of it. And in less than two years India had singed its biggest weapons deal in history with Russia.


When Air Chief Marshal S.K. Sareen took over as the air chief in 1996, he asked for more Mirage-2000. But he was told there were no funds. While there was no money for the Mirage, there was enough for the SU-30. He also fell in line for the purchase of the aircraft.

Some of the questions which come to mind are what was the pressing need for yet another class of fighter aircraft when the perfectly adequate Mirage-2000 and the MiGs were already in service? Had the technology and threat environment changed in the region?

India, incidentally does not have a repair and overhaul facility for the Sukhois. It will need another Rs 7000 crore for this facility.
So, without a doubt, ACM Krishnaswamy (then AVCM) and ACM S.K.Kaul are to be lauded as the ones who probably saw the potential in the Su-27UB airframe and married technologies from the Su-35 demonstrator to give rise to the ASRs for the MKI. and whatever gave steel to the political will that led to the signing of the deal, it did us a lot of good. unquestionably, the single most spectacular procurement project in the IAF, considering what a fighter its given to the IAF.

be aware that we'll see a lot more such articles that are also 'planted' when the MRCA candidates start dropping off after flight evaluations.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Aditya_M »

Cain - There are major issues with MTOW figures all over the internet and print literature. Often I have have seen the sum of max weight/pylon used to calculate payload figures, which is useless because the aircraft will never be able to generate enough lift for that weight. The biggest culprit is the F-15E where each fuselage pylon is rated to carry a 2000 lb LGB but you cannot fit twelve there because of space constraints; giving a horribly inflated figure.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Kartik,

The dynamics of the funds was explained a few pages ago. Russian politics, etc. All the right stars were aligned - Russian politics, Russian eco tanking, Russian unemployment - specially in the def area, etc. UF govt provided funds to support the then RUian gov (which is why there were no funds for the requested M2K - priority was to support RU govt - NOT MKI), had really no clue what a "MKI" was about. For that matter no one really had a clue exception were perhaps a handful of IAF and SU folks who slogged it out. Who in the world - at that point in time - had experience in integrating Russian + India + Israeli + French components? None. And, there was no gov agency that had the guts to fund such an effort either - understandably they expect the risk to be too high.

IMVVHO, this is a great example of how a gov should fund and get out of the way. Just that it was never intended to be that.

BR too had a decent size crowd that was against the "MKI" in late 90s.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Cain Marko »

Aditya_M wrote:Cain - There are major issues with MTOW figures all over the internet and print literature. Often I have have seen the sum of max weight/pylon used to calculate payload figures, which is useless because the aircraft will never be able to generate enough lift for that weight. The biggest culprit is the F-15E where each fuselage pylon is rated to carry a 2000 lb LGB but you cannot fit twelve there because of space constraints; giving a horribly inflated figure.
Hmm interesting, by that method what kind of figures might one get for the MKI? I took the 38 ton figure from a quote by a previous ACM in about 2004 (The Hindu rag, iirc). Is there any hope of getting to the bottom of this or the engine issue?

Regards,
CM.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by ajay_ijn »

is there any IAF designation for MKI like Vajra for M2K, Baaz, Shamsher, gajraj etc.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by somnath »

^^^th news report is misleading to the extent of the "blame" being on the UF govt. the initial deal was signed off by PVNR, just before the elections, the UF govt persisted with it - I narrated the sotry a few pages back...
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by merlin »

ajay_ijn wrote:is there any IAF designation for MKI like Vajra for M2K, Baaz, Shamsher, gajraj etc.
If I'm not mistaken it was decided by the IAF, after the MiG 29 purchase, not to name non-Indian aircraft with Indian names. Hence Su 30MKI does not have an official Indian name.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by krishnan »

http://horsesandswords.blogspot.com/200 ... ellis.html
Su-30MKI, knows as the Rambha in the Indian Air Force, takes off at Nellis Air Base. Picture by Kedar Kamarkar; view entire collection
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by sum »

If I'm not mistaken it was decided by the IAF, after the MiG 29 purchase, not to name non-Indian aircraft with Indian names. Hence Su 30MKI does not have an official Indian name.
Any particular reason for that?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by sum »

krishnan wrote:http://horsesandswords.blogspot.com/200 ... ellis.html
Su-30MKI, knows as the Rambha in the Indian Air Force, takes off at Nellis Air Base. Picture by Kedar Kamarkar; view entire collection
BR speak onlee.... Dont think its official.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by krishnan »

Yes, so who is the person in here who runs that blog. Raise your hand :P
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by K Mehta »

Thats Airavat's blog. He has also written a beautiful scenario on the blog. He should use his scenario building skills more often.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Ardeshir »

'Rambha' was a surefire giveaway that its a Jingo-blog. :)
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by merlin »

sum wrote:
If I'm not mistaken it was decided by the IAF, after the MiG 29 purchase, not to name non-Indian aircraft with Indian names. Hence Su 30MKI does not have an official Indian name.
Any particular reason for that?
Probably because it may appear that the plane is Indian while it's not. But this explanation is out of my mush so take it FWIW :mrgreen:
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Ananth »

sum wrote:
If I'm not mistaken it was decided by the IAF, after the MiG 29 purchase, not to name non-Indian aircraft with Indian names. Hence Su 30MKI does not have an official Indian name.
Any particular reason for that?
Thunderous thighs :P
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Kersi D »

merlin wrote:
ajay_ijn wrote:is there any IAF designation for MKI like Vajra for M2K, Baaz, Shamsher, gajraj etc.
If I'm not mistaken it was decided by the IAF, after the MiG 29 purchase, not to name non-Indian aircraft with Indian names. Hence Su 30MKI does not have an official Indian name.
The reason, I believe, is that nobody ever used the "Indian" names. All (incl the BR) would simply say MiG 29. Bazz eh what is that ?

K
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by ajay_ijn »

MKIs nickname should be flanker. pronoucing S U 30 takes more time, simply calling flanker is kool.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Mihir »

somnath wrote:
yes, the IAF compared the Su-30 (not MKI) with the Mirage-2000 and apparently the unit cost of the Su-30 was much lower. there was a MoD report or something of that sort that mentioned the details. you might still find it if you google it.
Source? Very unlikely given the specs of the two aircraft...Further, the IAF would look at life cycle costs, not upfront costs...and the operating costs of a single seater would typically be lower..
Also look at this report:

http://164.100.24.208/ls/committeeR/PAC ... eport.html
3.1 Based on the projections made in the IAF Perspective Plan (1992-2007), the Ministry of Defence was looking into various options available for acquiring a multi-role-combat aircraft. The Committee were informed that in May 1994 Government of India received a suo-motu offer from the manufacturer of SU-30K aircraft for its evaluation and subsequent induction in the IAF. The aircraft was evaluated by a six member evaluation team sent to the Supplier country from 12-21 June 1994. The evaluation report indicated that though the aircraft had multi-role potential, it was then optimised for air defence/air superiority role only. The evaluation report inter-alia brought out the following shortcomings in the aircraft:

# Certain features of the aircraft were found undesirable primarily from systems performance point of view. The Electronic warfare systems were found unsuitable to meet the Indian threat environment. Besides, the technology offered was most outdated. The pilot displays were found inadequate to meet the multi-role demands on the aircrew. The Radar performance was below expectation, and its maintainability was found to be poor. The navigation system severely lacked in accuracy, very limited capability existed for accurate weapon delivery and weapon systems controls were poorly integrated.

# Although the aircraft is capable of a large weapon load, the air to ground armament did not include any precision guided munitions. This was considered a serious drawback.

# Considering the large size and range of the aircraft, it was difficult for the aircraft to survive against the threat of modern air defence weapon systems unless its avionics, radar and electronic warfare systems were upgraded and well integrated.

3.2 While submitting their recommendations for acquisition of SU-30K aircraft, the evaluation team inter-alia pointed out that the existing configuration of the aircraft was unsuitable to meet the operational requirements of the IAF. According to them, certain minimum and mandatory changes in terms of incorporation of state-of-the-art avionics were needed to improve operational capability of the aircraft.

3.3. The manufacturer in a working protocol signed in June 1994 offered to fully upgrade and operationalise the multi-role variant, designated as SU-30 MKI jointly with India.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by namit k »

3.1 Based on the projections made in the IAF Perspective Plan (1992-2007), the Ministry of Defence was looking into various options available for acquiring a multi-role-combat aircraft. The Committee were informed that in May 1994 Government of India received a suo-motu offer from the manufacturer of SU-30K aircraft for its evaluation and subsequent induction in the IAF. The aircraft was evaluated by a six member evaluation team sent to the Supplier country from 12-21 June 1994. The evaluation report indicated that though the aircraft had multi-role potential, it was then optimised for air defence/air superiority role only. The evaluation report inter-alia brought out the following shortcomings in the aircraft:

# Certain features of the aircraft were found undesirable primarily from systems performance point of view. The Electronic warfare systems were found unsuitable to meet the Indian threat environment. Besides, the technology offered was most outdated. The pilot displays were found inadequate to meet the multi-role demands on the aircrew. The Radar performance was below expectation, and its maintainability was found to be poor. The navigation system severely lacked in accuracy, very limited capability existed for accurate weapon delivery and weapon systems controls were poorly integrated.

# Although the aircraft is capable of a large weapon load, the air to ground armament did not include any precision guided munitions. This was considered a serious drawback.

# Considering the large size and range of the aircraft, it was difficult for the aircraft to survive against the threat of modern air defence weapon systems unless its avionics, radar and electronic warfare systems were upgraded and well integrated.

3.2 While submitting their recommendations for acquisition of SU-30K aircraft, the evaluation team inter-alia pointed out that the existing configuration of the aircraft was unsuitable to meet the operational requirements of the IAF. According to them, certain minimum and mandatory changes in terms of incorporation of state-of-the-art avionics were needed to improve operational capability of the aircraft.

3.3. The manufacturer in a working protocol signed in June 1994 offered to fully upgrade and operationalise the multi-role variant, designated as SU-30 MKI jointly with India.
interesting , the IAF did rejected rambha at first , but accepted after much improvement lol, shows the level of standards and precision they want.
drdo should have learnt the lesson then
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by Tilak »

I am glad the forum is reaching new heights, lately.. :-? Congrats everbody..
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by JaiS »

Several colorful naming-related posts moved to Nukkad thread. Those interested, please continue there. Thanks.

Sukhois to arrive at Tezpur by June-July: Air Marshal Bhan
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by AmitR »

Mihir wrote:
somnath wrote:yes, the IAF compared the Su-30 (not MKI) with the Mirage-2000 and apparently the unit cost of the Su-30 was much lower. there was a MoD report or something of that sort that mentioned the details. you might still find it if you google it.
Source? Very unlikely given the specs of the two aircraft...Further, the IAF would look at life cycle costs, not upfront costs...and the operating costs of a single seater would typically be lower..
Also look at this report:

http://164.100.24.208/ls/committeeR/PAC ... eport.html
3.1 Based on the projections made in the IAF Perspective Plan (1992-2007), the Ministry of Defence was looking into various options available for acquiring a multi-role-combat aircraft. The Committee were informed that in May 1994 Government of India received a suo-motu offer from the manufacturer of SU-30K aircraft for its evaluation and subsequent induction in the IAF. The aircraft was evaluated by a six member evaluation team sent to the Supplier country from 12-21 June 1994. The evaluation report indicated that though the aircraft had multi-role potential, it was then optimised for air defence/air superiority role only. The evaluation report inter-alia brought out the following shortcomings in the aircraft:

# Certain features of the aircraft were found undesirable primarily from systems performance point of view. The Electronic warfare systems were found unsuitable to meet the Indian threat environment. Besides, the technology offered was most outdated. The pilot displays were found inadequate to meet the multi-role demands on the aircrew. The Radar performance was below expectation, and its maintainability was found to be poor. The navigation system severely lacked in accuracy, very limited capability existed for accurate weapon delivery and weapon systems controls were poorly integrated.

# Although the aircraft is capable of a large weapon load, the air to ground armament did not include any precision guided munitions. This was considered a serious drawback.

# Considering the large size and range of the aircraft, it was difficult for the aircraft to survive against the threat of modern air defence weapon systems unless its avionics, radar and electronic warfare systems were upgraded and well integrated.

3.2 While submitting their recommendations for acquisition of SU-30K aircraft, the evaluation team inter-alia pointed out that the existing configuration of the aircraft was unsuitable to meet the operational requirements of the IAF. According to them, certain minimum and mandatory changes in terms of incorporation of state-of-the-art avionics were needed to improve operational capability of the aircraft.

3.3. The manufacturer in a working protocol signed in June 1994 offered to fully upgrade and operationalise the multi-role variant, designated as SU-30 MKI jointly with India.
This is also a lesson to the breed of nay-sayers and pessimists that India is filled with.

Nothing is perfect in life, you have to work on it to make it better, be it love, marriage or a fighter plane. If India had waited for the Russis to give them the perfect next generation fighter A/C we would still be flying the Gnat. I applaud courage and vision of IAF and others that were involved in bringing this project to fruition. Hopefully our forces will also learn to get more involved with the development process and constant feedback mechanism. LCA and Arjun should be the next big ticket items for our own defence industry. :D
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

Post by soutikghosh »

Wonderful video of SU-30MKI doing Cobra manouver and vertical stall/spin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In3Jbpzw2OI

If someone wants this video for download(9mb file) pm me at [email protected]
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion

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