Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Mar 2009 05:22

The boss of the Luton Islamofascist protestors against British troops speaketh...

Hate cleric leads jihad cash appeal. Anjem Choudary, who led protests against returning British troops, has urged his followers to send money to 'mujaheddin'

context man, its all about the context...

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 15 Mar 2009 05:57

Sanjay M wrote: "Rights" were not created for this purpose, and certainly there are always people who will learn how to abuse rights and twist them to their own selfish ends.

Such "rights" need to be redefined in order to make these parasites into persona non grata.

That's bullshit and you know it. Rights were created for exactly that. The same rights that allow these people to shout those slogans are the same ones that allow the RSS to hate on Congress and Sonia Gandhi without being jailed for it.

Once you start to curtail such rights, who knows what other rights will be curtailed next. That is the opposite of what India should become.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 15 Mar 2009 06:33

Keshav wrote:
Sanjay M wrote: "Rights" were not created for this purpose, and certainly there are always people who will learn how to abuse rights and twist them to their own selfish ends.

Such "rights" need to be redefined in order to make these parasites into persona non grata.
That's bullshit and you know it. Rights were created for exactly that. The same rights that allow these people to shout those slogans are the same ones that allow the RSS to hate on Congress and Sonia Gandhi without being jailed for it.

Once you start to curtail such rights, who knows what other rights will be curtailed next. That is the opposite of what India should become.

No, rights were not created for as a loophole to promote sedition. The Ummah is not making any constructive critique of British society, nor trying to improve it. The Ummah is making naked raw appeals to sectarian fanaticism and extraterritorialist loyalties that undermine British society. They are abusing the law. The British authorities were very right to sack that baggage handler and revoke his security clearance. What were they supposed to do -- wait around for him to sneak a bomb onboard one day?

Does anyone see the Ummah granting such rights to others to do the same to them? You can't even print a cartoon without them rioting over it. The Ummah of course wants to have it both ways. They want maximum protection to preach sedition, and yet won't for an instant countenance any such protection for infidels in their own midst.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAZ_PGLh61s

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 15 Mar 2009 07:55

Sanjay M wrote: No, rights were not created for as a loophole to promote sedition. The Ummah is not making any constructive critique of British society, nor trying to improve it. The Ummah is making naked raw appeals to sectarian fanaticism and extraterritorialist loyalties that undermine British society. They are abusing the law. The British authorities were very right to sack that baggage handler and revoke his security clearance. What were they supposed to do -- wait around for him to sneak a bomb onboard one day?

I apologize for my rudeness on the first post.

The dialogue of rights was started by the Europeans (Locke, Voltaire, etc.) so I suppose we have to assume a Western frame of reference for this discussion.

Rights exist to promote individual freedom. That is the thinking underlying the phrase "individual rights".

America has framed the discussion best. The difference between freedom of speech and seditious speak is the motive to cause harm. It's generally called "fighting words", that is, incitement to violence or motive to cause violence or harm. Raw appeals to extraterritorial loyalties is absolutely legal in America. Britain doesn't have a constitution so I can't speak for them, but I can speak for how they and India should act.

Appeals to sectarian violence and fanaticism are wrong and there should be legal action taken against those who do.

But let me clarify once again my position. You cannot differentiate between those who protest British soldiers and those who only protest politically. There is no difference between a person who calls British soldiers baby killers and the person who makes fun of the head of state or disagrees with the majority party.

Freedom of Speech is a wide sweeping liberty and chipping away it is the same as destroying it all together. You must set a precedent, draw a line in the sand and follow the rules. Letting one or two here and there is the reason for Indian corruption.

Does anyone see the Ummah granting such rights to others to do the same to them? You can't even print a cartoon without them rioting over it. The Ummah of course wants to have it both ways. They want maximum protection to preach sedition, and yet won't for an instant countenance any such protection for infidels in their own midst.

No liberal democracy should base its actions on the ethical standards of the 7th century. It is up to us to grow beyond that.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 15 Mar 2009 08:37

Lalmohan wrote: the muslims of britian have until recently not had any different treatment to the afro-carribeans, indian hindus, sikhs, buddhists and any other minority. why does this particular minority come out in protest over any 'injustice to muslims' worldwide?

Look, muslims are pissed off at the war in Iraq and Afghanistan (as much as Israel - Palestine). Where was that WMD? The debate in the media seems to be that the people should support the british troops/british mission in Iraq/afghanistan regardless as to whether it was right or wrong. Muslims are unhappy at the number of civilians who died in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine. Being brought up in the UK and who has muslim friends. My Iraqi friend had 30 family members who were killed during the war which the west fought against Iraq. Now his opinion would obviously be taken into account, if this guy who has been on the ground tells me what the americans are doing in his country, people would probably take his word for it.

I got a Palestinian friend, 11 of his family members were "martyred" in the recent war. Again he has been there on the ground and speaks to his relatives etc.

Naturally these people's opinions will be influencial in making peoples minds up on who's side they are when they protest. This is similar in most areas in britain. Is this enough excuse to protest about injustices?

why does this group openly preach the overthrow of the established order?

Don't take the media reports too seriously mate, the same guys like al muhajiroun are actually laughed at by the vast majority of muslims. "They provide great comedy" is what one friend told me. Half of the stuff that they talk about actually goes against their own religion.

why does this group bomb public places to deliberately target civilians? why does this group as a whole remain silent on terrorism and violence? why does this group not raise a fuss about darfur? or timor?

I am not speaking for them when I say this but I think their view is this: "An eye for an eye. You kill civilians in Iraq, we kill innocent civilians here."
But these are the extremists and should be kicked out of Britain, they have no place here in british society. Most of the muslims do not subscribe to this view, few days after 9/11, was at a friends house (pakistani), the mother was speaking to me about it and she was saying how sick it was and how she couldn't watch it.

The community did their bit to speak out against terrorism, I don't know which part of the community was silent on terrorism and violence, only people would probably be Al Muhajiroun and the extremist clowns.

Darfur is talked about in the community, in fact they support Omar Bashir because he has been a really good leader and most muslims are suprised that GCC actually stood up to the west on Bashir's recent arrest warrant, international criminal court case.

To be honest, most of the hindu's of my age are clueless about world politics and what the west are doing abroad, because their immediate family or country of origin isn't facing a significant threat. Hindu's brought up here are generally more "goraa", their values have become more westernised(christianised). They don't know lots about hinduism and its teachings until they reach a certain age perhaps. . Sikh community seem to be far more religious and protect their culture/values. (this is based on my first hand experience as a young person and what I see in my age group)

according to a muslim friend, the issues in the community are a lack of internal leadership - the parental generation preach do as i say not do as i do - the younger ones are sick of the hypocracy. wine and women in the evening, mullah and namaz during the day. the mullah does not have answers to any question not related to life in a south asian village. there is no voice. into this vacuum comes earnest young men in beards who talk about the ummah, and victimisation and preach revolution.

Thats right. They want more local imams in the mosques than some guy from a village. This is an issue.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 15 Mar 2009 14:53

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/ne ... 943462.stm
Audio file: Conservative MP David Davies tosses in a few good points and verbally kicks a paki caller's arse on radio.

gandharva · Post by **gandharva** » 15 Mar 2009 15:01

Muslim Council of Britain Spokesman Arrested in Stabbing Incident

A Muslim who advised the Government following the July 7 London bombings has been arrested after an alleged stabbing.

Inayat Bunglawala, 39, was held on suspicion of attacking another man at his £300,000 home.

Mr Bunglawala, who also briefed former Security Minister Tony McNulty on the threat posed by Islamic radicals in the UK, was arrested two weeks before Christmas last year.

The identity of the alleged victim is unknown and it is not clear what circumstances led to the alleged attack in the early hours of December 13 last year.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -home.html

Britain needs more Islam.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 15 Mar 2009 17:19

Oh, I remember this Bunglawala guy. He was quite a vocal activist following the Bradford riots. I remember seeing his face on TV quite a bit back then.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 15 Mar 2009 17:24

'Allah's flag in Downing St'

RANTING hate preacher Anjem Choudary – the man behind the vile Luton protests – wants the flag of Allah to fly over Downing Street and ALL British women forced to wear a burka.
The wild-eyed fanatic today insisted he wanted the UK to live under tough Sharia Law, saying anyone caught drunk should suffer 40 lashes in public, while adulterers should be stoned to death.

He added: "The troops were not heroes but cowards, doing the bidding of a British government engaged in state-sponsored terrorism."

Choudary says his group's ultimate aim is to "fly the flag of Allah above 10 Downing Street" and bring about "through jihad" - "a pure Islamic State with Sharia Law in Britain".

And he added: "Every woman, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, would have to wear a traditional burka and cover everything apart from her hands in public."

Separated from wife Rubana Akhtar, it is alleged poison preacher Choudary lives off £25,000 a year in benefits supporting his three young children but rejects hypocrisy saying: "I don't think it's of any importance."

Choudary – right-hand man of exiled cleric Omar Bakri – no longer practises conventional law and is now a judge of the Sharia Court in the UK .In his vision of judicial law one male witness would be sufficient to counter the testimony of two females.

Londonistan is truly on the path to become the next TSP.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Mar 2009 18:56

Oh, don't worry, Muslims in India are increasingly daring to say "Butcher of xyz". It's only a matter of time before they shed all their inhibitions

Sadly, this seems to be true going by the slow "uprising" being noticed in most IM ghettos i have seen. (The posters pasted there have to be seen to be believed)

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 15 Mar 2009 19:22

Heh, here's Anjem 'Andy' Chaudhury in his former life:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... udary.html

Islamic piety and group support seems to attract the mentally weaker lower-EQ people, who then congregate together to form a low-EQ ethnic group, who then suffer disproportionately from the problems that afflict those of low EQ, with predictable results as shown in this article.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 15 Mar 2009 20:16

Minister beaten after clashing with Muslims on his TV show

The Reverend Noble Samuel was driving to the studio when a car pulled over in front of him. A man got out and came over to ask him directions in Urdu.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 Mar 2009 20:32

Ajatshatru wrote:Keshav wrote:
The same rights that allow these people to shout those slogans are the same ones that allow the RSS to hate on Congress and Sonia Gandhi without being jailed for it.

RSS is also inside Congress party. So what is your point. You seem to be clueless.

KrishnaMu · Post by **KrishnaMu** » 15 Mar 2009 20:33

Northern Ireland – another British imperialist legacy – British Media in denial
Still they haven't woken up to Imperialistic Hangover.

Despite the peace “Good Friday agreement” between Britain and Ireland still problem persists. After long standing between Irish Nationalists(Catholics/republicans) and Unionists (Protestants) they have power sharing agreement of Northern Ireland assembly (reminds Indian Home rule) but on street still the segregation between Catholics and Protestants is widely visible. Segregated schools, segregated foot ball clubs (Catholics support Scottish foot ball team Celtic and Unionist/protestants supports rangers) and public houses (pubs). For example County Derry predominant catholic population and west Belfast, if you are not that part of the woods if you wear Rangers jersy you are in big trouble vice versa. Interestingly the so called Bebo generations who never saw northern troubles still dont trust each other, if you browse their web sites it reminds us Jihadi web sites complete hate material between two parties/religions. PSNI (Northern Ireland Police service) the number of Catholics in the force is only 4-5%. So one can imagine the ground on the northern Ireland. In republic Cricket is limited to only dublin former British barracks places. In developed countries I have seen segregation on Colour and wealth. Britain is classic example breeding hate. But so called false economy (“Property bubble”) in both countries are crumbling disaster is awaiting on British Isles. All these problems are completely brushed away by the media. Trust me I have seen as I am from republic.

British Society is the classic example a great social experiment gone horribly wrong. A great case study for Social engineers. Entire youth in few parts of England never worked so called “working class” is no more they are now relies on govt. hand outs. They are now known “Benefit Class”. The bottle water is more expensive then 2 cans of Beer. That explains how much society is in rot in the core. There children who have lost childhood by hanging around local chip shops and shopping malls. If they still have, they are spending exploring them self sexually at the tender age of 12. At the age of 13 they can become father and mother they will be treated national heros by tabliods. BBC wont mention the news to the world. Media is more interested in some trash parties by so called celebrities they don't have stomach tackle real street level issues.

Manufacturing sector is complete vanished from Mid-lands, brings more idle hands for govt. money. New labour have looked so called “CITY Services Economy” meanwhile China and new Eastern Europe has becoming new manufacturing hubs. Media completely ignored this indulged them self in Property *****.

Britain is dragging them self s down, I still wonder they could capable of hosting Olympics 2012 if so don't expect fire works, probably they will show their teenagers pushing prams in their opening ceremony.

The time has came Britain should look at its Internal Bleeding wounds it cant covered with British media propaganda with Band aids. It should stop giving lectures it should tackle internal problems. It just matter of decade of time Britain wont get invitation G7 meetings.

India-Pakistan, Israel-Palestinian and Ireland – Northern Ireland are burning issue of the world , but British media successfully brushed under the carpet of their failures. (It really astonishes British media was modern Nazi equivalent propaganda machine).

So think before if any body thinking make Britain as there “home”.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 15 Mar 2009 20:41

Isn't the Catholic/Protestant terminology a bit misleading?

After all, the 'Protestants' are the descendants of English and Scottish settlers, transplanted by Charles I after he ethnically cleansed the O'Neill and O'Donnell clans from the north of Ireland.

This is ethnic conflict, a result of the divide et impera (divide and rule) policy the English learned from their Roman masters complete with settlers and partition.

KrishnaMu · Post by **KrishnaMu** » 15 Mar 2009 21:12

Gerard wrote:Isn't the Catholic/Protestant terminology a bit misleading?

Nope, thats what is in the streets or talk over stool on the pub. I suggest reading Tim Pat Koogan writings on this. correct me if i am wrong about catholic population of county Derrry, where lot of sympathisers to Nationalists including Martin McGuiness from that part and Gerry Adams is from belfast. Its plain black and white when it comes Northern Ireland. In the height of Catholics are unemployed then protestents because business cant trust catholics. Mr Blair is now so called Middle peace envoy member to cover up his failures in IRAQ and failure make it de segrated Northern Ireland society as a whole(Free state agreement is made on this census 1921, of cource free state agreement is refuted by in Irish republic as Sinn Fein at that time wont whole of Ireland under republic then it leaded it self then a breif civil war, Michael Collins assisniation and rest is history).

Gerard wrote: After all, the 'Protestants' are the descendants of English and Scottish settlers, transplanted by Charles I after he ethnically cleansed the O'Neill and O'Donnell clans from the north of Ireland.

Yes, thats the reason they are known as unionists in modern history, legion to the queen.

Gerard wrote: This is ethnic conflict, a result of the divide et impera (divide and rule) policy the English learned from their Roman masters complete with settlers and partition.

[/quote]
Yes, so does slightly rest of the conflicts created by English empire.

negi · Post by **negi** » 15 Mar 2009 21:12

The Reverend Noble Samuel was driving to the studio when a car pulled over in front of him. A man got out and came over to ask him directions in Urdu.

Interesting Noble Samuel a christian missionary from Pakistan , wife: Lousia and son:Naveed

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Mar 2009 00:32

Sanjay M wrote:Heh, here's Anjem 'Andy' Chaudhury in his former life:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... udary.html

Islamic piety and group support seems to attract the mentally weaker lower-EQ people, who then congregate together to form a low-EQ ethnic group, who then suffer disproportionately from the problems that afflict those of low EQ, with predictable results as shown in this article.

A wise man said, "Billions flis eat crap, billion flies cannot be wrong" so when some one join the group , then IQ questioin is left for Kuffar to figure out. Flies just want to be pissful. So sir many flies have been seen flying away from Rasgullas , Barfi,Ras Malai and Jalebs in a race toward garbage truck driven by or mile high mountain of pious crap near oil droplets.
In karmic nutshell , Chruchil wanted to keep piece of India but ended up getting piss of India.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 16 Mar 2009 01:04

In karmic nutshell , Chruchil wanted to keep piece of India but ended up getting piss of India.

Prem saar, you gotta way with words ..... rustic truthiness, mussay.

Some serious questions onlee:

1. BTW, why is the BRF jirga expensing so much time and energy on a mere 3.5% of the UKstani population, eh? (So what if that 3.5% hides within it 10% of the popn under 3), i.e. in 20 yrs.....

2. Bad guys don't always lose. Life is not a Bollywood movie. What if karma never comes to collect? Think about it....

3. UKstan is building the case to kick out all its troublemakers by allowing this anjem choudhary types ever more rope. Whereas our rabid dogs seldom get as much PR in Des, IMO. Hence the serious lack of public pressure to cleanup nests like ajamgad, malappuram and kannur.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 16 Mar 2009 01:10

Bad guys don't always lose. Life is not a Bollywood movie. What if karma never comes to collect? Think about it....

Karma cannot be stopped. It may come a bit late but will never fail to collect its due.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Mar 2009 01:25

First we need to watch the Kushti between British Karma and Bakish Karma . Its good idea to give support from outside to both parties as both are wronged . I have the hunch that more than Great Khan ,soon to be separated Mrs U Khan Poodle will ask for help from us to become the instrument of Karmic Judge Dredd and save their skirt. More than Great Khan , these buggers know and have many more ways to influence our decison .

sivabala · Post by **sivabala** » 16 Mar 2009 01:45

Did anybody see this coincidence? or just me??

Just before Iraq war Irish RA made a deal with Britain. Now the war is near over and Bush had left his office. IRA has now started its business.

When the deal was struck back then there was report that its on the insistence of Amri-khans, who were the real masters behind IRA, that the deal was made.

Now the Iraq liberation war reln between US-sthan and UK-sthan is near over and hence the party begins.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 16 Mar 2009 02:15

I'd also see an economic aspect to this. With the global downturn, Ireland's growth has been sharply cut, and layoffs have been widespread. EU has also been looking to punish Ireland for rejecting its European treaty agenda. So a major consequence of this, is that Irish militancy will revive again among its unemployed youth.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Mar 2009 02:56

What if karma never comes to collect? Think about it....

Karma necessarily means reincarnation. So, there are plenty of lives to "collect".

Back to topic. (Which BTW is not about Indo-UK!!)

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Mar 2009 03:02

Sanjay M wrote:I'd also see an economic aspect to this. With the global downturn, Ireland's growth has been sharply cut, and layoffs have been widespread. EU has also been looking to punish Ireland for rejecting its European treaty agenda. So a major consequence of this, is that Irish militancy will revive again among its unemployed youth.

You are confusing Northern Ireland (part of the UK) with the Republic of Ireland.

The youth (unemployed or not) in the Irish Republic have not been involved in the 'militancy' in Northern Ireland. There is nothing to revive.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 16 Mar 2009 04:16

Irish terrorists have often been extensions of the local hard men, armed robbers and thugs who have taken to a seemingly political cause. most often because it facilitates their dhanda. The number of hard core ideologically committed guys (both catholics and protestants) is probably numbered in the tens. young guys with nothing to do make up the numbers, often that is an extension of football club partisan violence. I saw a statistic once which said that Protestant gunmen (pro UK) killed many more Catholics than the IRA killed security men.

and yes, this is restricted to six counties of the Northern Ireland. Eire (Irish Republic) is far removed from the troubles, although the American Irish might not understand exactly what the ground realities are.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 16 Mar 2009 06:28

Gerard wrote: You are confusing Northern Ireland (part of the UK) with the Republic of Ireland.

The youth (unemployed or not) in the Irish Republic have not been involved in the 'militancy' in Northern Ireland. There is nothing to revive.

Nationalists among Irish communities everywhere have in the past shown support for IRA, whether in USA, Canada, or Ireland proper.

Certainly, a significant portion of IRA support has traditionally come from Ireland itself. Otherwise, how could the pockets in Northern Ireland do it all on their own? They can't.

gandharva · Post by **gandharva** » 16 Mar 2009 11:18

Jihad Chic Comes to London

Twenty-three years old, Jan had been born in eastern Afghanistan and attended a madrassa in Pakistan. The Taliban still ruled Afghanistan when his parents paid a people smuggler to sneak Jan to England at 14. There he applied for and was granted political asylum, claiming that the Taliban had persecuted him and his family. Now he's a legal resident, yet openly cheers for his supposed oppressors to defeat troops from his adopted homeland in Afghanistan. The irony seems lost on him.
Jan is a terror to his neighbors. He prowls the streets as a one-man, self-appointed morality patrol. He castigates young Muslim couples he sees holding hands in public, and he badgers acquaintances for shaping their beards into what he disapprovingly calls a "French cut" that frames the mouth. His diatribes can be frightening. Several young men told me they were afraid Jan had friends who could create problems for them or their relatives in Afghanistan or Pakistan. Some feared they might be disowned if Jan got word to their families about their "immoral" living in London.

At a neighborhood restaurant one day I noticed that my waiter looked miserable. Khalil is a clean-shaven, broad-shouldered young Afghan who wears a gold ring in one earlobe. I asked why he was so unhappy, and he told me his story as he cleaned the table and took my order. He said he had been dumped a few days earlier by his girlfriend, a beautiful young Englishwoman. They were out walking when Talib Jan marched up and began denouncing Khalil, threatening to let his family back in Afghanistan know that their son was having a forbidden affair. The girl was frightened by Jan, but more than that, she was furious at Khalil for lying to her: he had told her he was Turkish. She told him they were through.

Now Khalil worries that same routine will be repeated with every girl he meets in London

http://www.newsweek.com/id/189241/page/1

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 17 Mar 2009 00:58

Sir Nicholas Henderson

After an initial period during which the Americans insisted on negotiations, Henderson was instrumental in persuading the Reagan administration to put aside concerns about US relations with Latin America and provide Britain with practical support and intelligence during the military campaign. Without this help, Mrs Thatcher herself later acknowledged, it would not have been possible to recover the islands from Argentina.

Indeed, so successfully did Henderson press the British case that at one point the American Defence Secretary, Caspar Weinberger, offered to make available a US Navy aircraft carrier if the situation required, an offer of spontaneous generosity which, Henderson observed, “must be unique in the annals of the Washington-London relationship”.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 17 Mar 2009 01:05

Keshav wrote:
Sanjay M wrote:
Does anyone see the Ummah granting such rights to others to do the same to them? You can't even print a cartoon without them rioting over it. The Ummah of course wants to have it both ways. They want maximum protection to preach sedition, and yet won't for an instant countenance any such protection for infidels in their own midst.
No liberal democracy should base its actions on the ethical standards of the 7th century. It is up to us to grow beyond that.

What should one do if that very liberal democracy is threatened by the ethical standards of the 7th century? Should we use liberal democratic values or ethical standards of 7th century?

This takes us to Shiv-ji's thread >>http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=1&t=4626

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2009 02:40

No wonder Weinbereger was awarded a knighthood by the British which he accepted even thought foreign titles are an anathema to US govt servants.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 17 Mar 2009 02:46

gandharva wrote:
Jihad Chic Comes to London

Twenty-three years old, Jan had been born in eastern Afghanistan and attended a madrassa in Pakistan. The Taliban still ruled Afghanistan when his parents paid a people smuggler to sneak Jan to England at 14. There he applied for and was granted political asylum, claiming that the Taliban had persecuted him and his family. Now he's a legal resident, yet openly cheers for his supposed oppressors to defeat troops from his adopted homeland in Afghanistan. The irony seems lost on him.
Jan is a terror to his neighbors. He prowls the streets as a one-man, self-appointed morality patrol. He castigates young Muslim couples he sees holding hands in public, and he badgers acquaintances for shaping their beards into what he disapprovingly calls a "French cut" that frames the mouth. His diatribes can be frightening. Several young men told me they were afraid Jan had friends who could create problems for them or their relatives in Afghanistan or Pakistan. Some feared they might be disowned if Jan got word to their families about their "immoral" living in London.

At a neighborhood restaurant one day I noticed that my waiter looked miserable. Khalil is a clean-shaven, broad-shouldered young Afghan who wears a gold ring in one earlobe. I asked why he was so unhappy, and he told me his story as he cleaned the table and took my order. He said he had been dumped a few days earlier by his girlfriend, a beautiful young Englishwoman. They were out walking when Talib Jan marched up and began denouncing Khalil, threatening to let his family back in Afghanistan know that their son was having a forbidden affair. The girl was frightened by Jan, but more than that, she was furious at Khalil for lying to her: he had told her he was Turkish. She told him they were through.

Now Khalil worries that same routine will be repeated with every girl he meets in London

http://www.newsweek.com/id/189241/page/1

Here in the states call yourself an "Indian" joint, be it a restaurant or a grocery store and you will have scores of customers. in UK call urself Porki or Afghani and you have GFs walking out...too much H&D lost for the Afpakis er...Arab pure blood descendents in South Asia...

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 17 Mar 2009 04:05

RamaY wrote:What should one do if that very liberal democracy is threatened by the ethical standards of the 7th century? Should we use liberal democratic values or ethical standards of 7th century?

Use liberal democratic values. Punishing people for the violation of free speech is far easier to do than people think. You're not fighting Aurangzeb. You're fighting a mob of yelling people. Punish the people who violate the law and let go the people who don't.

In Britain (and India), I assume, where you don't persecute those who violate freedom of speech that you have situation where LDV (liberal democratic values) are no longer useful.

No.2, Please could you provide credible links to show concerted hate efforts of RSS against Sonia Gandhi (you are, also, trying to convey in your post that RSS has been/is anti-Congress) or are you one of those NRIs who likes to drag RSS into every discussion (whether directly relevant to the thread/topic under discussion) and furthermore, likes to assume RSS hand in anything and everything sinister happening in India.

http://www.expressindia.com/news/messag ... wsid=35278

Sonia Gandhi berates the RSS for weakening India's integrity. You must be living in a bubble if you think there aren't more than a few Sonia detractors among the RSS cadre.

Ultimately, that was just an example of how everyone needs freedom of speech and how jihadis use just as much and just as fairly as the average person on the street, a Youth Congress party worker, or an RSS worker, etc. Allowing it for one allows it for everybody and vice versa.

That's all I'm saying.

KrishnaMu · Post by **KrishnaMu** » 17 Mar 2009 04:56

sivabala wrote:Did anybody see this coincidence? or just me??

Just before Iraq war Irish RA made a deal with Britain. Now the war is near over and Bush had left his office. IRA has now started its business.

When the deal was struck back then there was report that its on the insistence of Amri-khans, who were the real masters behind IRA, that the deal was made.

Now the Iraq liberation war reln between US-sthan and UK-sthan is near over and hence the party begins.

It could be pure co-incidence. There is no end of IRAQ war or Afghnistan yet. You are right US special interest Ted Kennedy (irish american) and Clinton shown special interest hold ears of both unionsts and nationalist one table get them sign with good friday agreement thus securing Irish Catholic vote bank in large. Still Ian pasily (hard core unionst will not shake hand publicaly with naitonalistic counter part)

Still peace is fragile testing mettle for both UK and Irish govt. Segregation in schools are still unblvble. Northern people drive to southern parts for cheap fuel

and republic drives back to north for IKEA, cheap booze and cigrettes (coz NI has VAT 15 % and ROI has 21%). National football teams are play as NI and ROI but rugby as whole ISLAND so does cricket.

Happy St. Patrick Day .. every body is Irish today. Where is my Guiness!!

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 18 Mar 2009 03:48

The Real IRA is a very small splinter from the PIRA - but small cells of experienced terrorists can still build bombs or conduct assaults that grab headlines, which is the greatest success possible in this kind of conflict.

The Real IRA's greatest weakness is that dont just have to contend with the Ulster authorities, and the British government. They have to deal with the far larger PIRA which has a huge vested interest in peace given its electoral successes since they put down (most of) their guns.

The PIRA is still a very, very ruthless bunch who made a strategic decision to end 'armed struggle', but still maintain an intelligence network, and an enforcement network. They found ways to persuade the RIRA to back off from its campaign over the past decade. They have the means and the will to do much worse to the RIRA today if more persuasion is needed.

Sanjay,

Please be careful with names; 'nationalist' is not the same as 'republican'. The Irish nationalists of Ulster favour self-rule of a united Ireland, but have always rejected the use of violence and unconstitutional means. The Catholic Church to the extent it has been involved has consistantly backed the Nationalists and condemned the Republicans.

The IRA/Sinn Fein were never able to win over the majority of Irish Catholics in Ulster away from the Nationalists - that is why Gerry Adams and co. decided to follow the Nationalists example, and they have profited from it. Those who could not stomache this change splintered. While they do have a support base, it is too small to change public sentiment in Ireland.

The pattern of Irish Republican violence is that the biggest acts occur whenever a group, or a faction within a group face crisis - declining membership/recruitment, funding difficulties, internal dissension over strategy, etc. The hope is always that a 'spectacular' will bring in recruits and funding, or strengthen the hand of a particular individual or faction seeking leadership.

BTW, the Irish Republic is about as friendly to the IRA as the Indian Republic is to the LTTE. In other words, not at all, despite widespread public sympathy for the people in general. There's too much of a history of IRA violence against the Irish State for anything else.

Gerard,

It isnt that simple
- The first Irish independence movement began among transplanted Protestants back in the 18th century, although it was not sectarian in ideology.

- The Irish Republican movement only gained a Catholic character after the potato famines of the 19th century.

- the transplantation by James I (himself Scottish) was not about thwarting Irish independence, but about the sectarian wars of the Counter-Reformation. The fear was that the Holy Roman Empire's attempts to put a Catholic monarchy back in place in London would start with landings in whichever part of the Isles had the heaviest concentration of Catholics - Ireland.

- The 'Scots' are the result of Irish migration and intermingling with Picts, but the culture is still essentially Celtic; hence transplanted Scots came to regard themselves as Irish very quickly.

- Without the Protestant fundamentalists who terrorised Irish Catholics, the Irish Republican movement could never have succeeded. Irish Home Rule produced an Ireland still within the commonwealth, and integrated with British and Allied foreign and defence policy, instead of the dead weight of a neutralist Ireland in WWII, the Cold War, Balkans, Mid East, etc, and the distraction of the IRA. It is the Irish Protestants who have been London's biggest headache - a sectarian agenda that has consistantly damaged national interest while waving the union jack.

Whether past or present, its the Irish Protestants who have been the real problem for London. First waving an Irish flag, but worse, later waving a union jack. Much harder to deal with when theyre doing that.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 18 Mar 2009 04:15

Slowly..UK is shedding it's uncomfortable / unnatural cloak and going back to its roots:

UK gurdwara gutted in suspected racist attack

"Somebody did this deliberately. A man came in and got to the temple’s holiest area. He was interrupted by one of the women, but managed to get away. As he ran out, the place went up in flames. Everyone panicked. The women tried to put out the fire, but it was too fierce," Gurpal, an IT worker from Chingford, was quoted as saying by the British paper.

Thirty-five year old Gurpal said the women managed to save one of the holy books but the flames took hold
before they could get to the other seven. "I can’t describe how important those holy books were to the Sikh community," he added.

This is really civilized barbarianism to still possess the things that were looted during colonialism of 17th & 18th.

If UK and its people has indeed an iota of shame and moral turpitude, they should return all things they took from other nations and hand it over. Else, it's like a theif/robber saying that I have given up on robbing but I will keep all I have with me. How different are you guys than those jihadis?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Mar 2009 14:32

satyaji

this is a functional gurudwara, the only holy books there would have been placed there by the Sikh community who practice there. Any books of significant age or value would be in museums - I am not aware of any in public display. It is not clear who the arsonist is. It could be any number of people, and there is not immediately an established racist angle to this incident. There are many gurudwaras functioning quite normally in the UK - whilst it is possible that a white racist could have done the attack, it is relatively rare for such hate crimes to take place in the UK these days. Much more likely is a similar hate crime against a mosque.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 18 Mar 2009 17:59

Lalmohan, spot on! The above could just be internal politics between people, land issues, we have seen it so many times. Could have been anyone who did it, for a variety of reasons.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Mar 2009 01:04

on second reading, the suspect is supposedly black or mixed race. afro carribean people have almost no reason to commit a hate crime against indians in the uk. now just supposing that the chappie is in fact muslim (and there are many black muslims in britain), and he is undertaking a hate crime against the kufar?

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 19 Mar 2009 01:13

Britain apologises for 'Third World' hospital

The British government apologised Wednesday after a damning official report into a hospital likened by one patient's relative to "a Third World" health centre.

Stafford Hospital in central England was found to have appalling standards of care, putting patients at risk and leading to some dying, according to a report on Tuesday.

Between 400 and 1,200 more people died than would have been expected in a three-year period at the National Health Service (NHS) hospital, according to an investigation by the Healthcare Commission watchdog.

Well...wellcome to the third warald I guess...

"What we saw in those eight weeks will haunt us for the rest of our lives," said the 47-year-old. "We saw patients drinking out of flower vases they were so thirsty.

"There were patients wandering around the hospital and patients fighting. It was continuous through the night. Patients were screaming out in pain because you just could not get pain relief.

"It was like a Third World country hospital. It was an absolute disgrace."

The British premier, who has trumpeted huge increases in spending on the NHS since his Labour party took office in 1997, said there were "no excuses" for what happened to patients at the hospital.

On second (third?) thoughts, don't drag in the third world there now... nobody drinks outta flower vases in the third world, IMO.... no flower vases around onlee