Discussion on Indian Special Forces

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 13 Mar 2009 08:44

Can you send your email address to me on sachmath1@gmail.com.

Incidentally I am a BrFite - Trainee hehheheh.

Interesting.

REgards

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 13 Mar 2009 09:05

ks_sachin wrote:Can you send your email address to me on sachmath1@gmail.com.

Incidentally I am a BrFite - Trainee hehheheh.

Interesting.

REgards

Are you Brig Kanbargimath?

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Mar 2009 09:16

****double post***

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Mar 2009 09:17

ks_sachin wrote:Can you send your email address to me on sachmath1@gmail.com.

Incidentally I am a BrFite - Trainee hehheheh.

Interesting.

REgards

Sir,
If you dont mind, could you please post the article as a BRF post in this thread itself?

If not, will send you my e-mail address...

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 13 Mar 2009 10:40

ks_sachin wrote:Can you send your email address to me on sachmath1@gmail.com.

Incidentally I am a BrFite - Trainee hehheheh.

Interesting.

REgards

E-Mail sent! If you are who I think you are (you have one of the veteran's albums on B-R for the Bangladesh war?) then it is indeed interesting that you are classified as a trainee!

Maybe B-R should have fast-track promotion policy for deserving individuals! Or perhaps I think you are the son of the veteran since he was SS and you are KS!

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 14 Mar 2009 12:20

NSG chief should be from police service: former head

"The NSG chief should be from the police service. After the NSG finishes an operation, the message that goes to the world is that the elite commandos of India executed the job. But if it is an Army officer heading the NSG, it would look like the Army had to be called in for a Mumbai-like operation," former NSG Director J K Dutt told PTI here.

why worry about "image"?

IMHO best man for the job should be chosen regardless of the "force" he comes from.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 14 Mar 2009 13:27

An extract from Lt Gen Vijay Oberoi's article SPECIAL FORCES - REVAMP AND RESTRUCTURE

SF of India

The biggest component of SF is fielded by the Indian Army, but other forces too have SF of varying capabilities. Currently, the SF component of the Indian Army comprises a number of Para (SF) battalions. While five such battalions have existed for over a decade, the others were converted by re-designating all parachute battalions about three years ago. The other SF of India include a battalion of the Rashtriya Rifles – 31 RR (Commando), the Navy’s MARCOS, two forces operating under the Cabinet Secretariat, viz. the NSG and the Special Frontier Force (SFF) and the Garuda Commando Force of the Indian Air Force. Some states have designated some police units as Commandos but these are of little value. All these forces have different tasks, ranging from counter-insurgency to anti-hijacking, to guerrilla warfare and so on. The total strength of all the different forces combined, not counting the so-called police commandos, would be fairly substantial, and would compare favourably with the strengths of the SF of US and Russia.

Capable of carrying out only ‘direct action’ type of operations, like raids, direct and indirect assaults, and other attrition-oriented tasks, the various SF forces of India, however, are neither organised nor doctrinally prepared to carry out tasks which their counterparts in some other countries are capable of conducting. These include tasks like unconventional warfare, special deep reconnaissance, psychological operations, counter proliferation and sensitive special operations. Unfortunately , earlier attempts in the army to form SF units in the genre of Special Air Service (SAS) of UK, or the Special Operations Forces (SOF) of USA were met with skepticism, if not downright hostility.

The major reason is the focus of the Indian Army on attrition-oriented operations and linear thinking. Consequently, Para Commandos of the past, or Para (SF), as they are now termed, have largely been employed as super or elite-infantry, with a focus on attrition-dominated tasks. No doubt they have performed well, but they still are not trained for typical SF roles. On occasions, they have also been employed on mundane and wasteful tasks, such as VIP protection or protective tasks at higher headquarters.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 14 Mar 2009 17:11

RayC wrote:An extract from Lt Gen Vijay Oberoi's article SPECIAL FORCES - REVAMP AND RESTRUCTURE

SF of India

The biggest component of SF is fielded by the Indian Army, but other forces too have SF of varying capabilities. Currently, the SF component of the Indian Army comprises a number of Para (SF) battalions. While five such battalions have existed for over a decade, the others were converted by re-designating all parachute battalions about three years ago. The other SF of India include a battalion of the Rashtriya Rifles – 31 RR (Commando), the Navy’s MARCOS, two forces operating under the Cabinet Secretariat, viz. the NSG and the Special Frontier Force (SFF) and the Garuda Commando Force of the Indian Air Force. Some states have designated some police units as Commandos but these are of little value. All these forces have different tasks, ranging from counter-insurgency to anti-hijacking, to guerrilla warfare and so on. The total strength of all the different forces combined, not counting the so-called police commandos, would be fairly substantial, and would compare favourably with the strengths of the SF of US and Russia.

Capable of carrying out only ‘direct action’ type of operations, like raids, direct and indirect assaults, and other attrition-oriented tasks, the various SF forces of India, however, are neither organised nor doctrinally prepared to carry out tasks which their counterparts in some other countries are capable of conducting. These include tasks like unconventional warfare, special deep reconnaissance, psychological operations, counter proliferation and sensitive special operations. Unfortunately , earlier attempts in the army to form SF units in the genre of Special Air Service (SAS) of UK, or the Special Operations Forces (SOF) of USA were met with skepticism, if not downright hostility.

The major reason is the focus of the Indian Army on attrition-oriented operations and linear thinking. Consequently, Para Commandos of the past, or Para (SF), as they are now termed, have largely been employed as super or elite-infantry, with a focus on attrition-dominated tasks. No doubt they have performed well, but they still are not trained for typical SF roles. On occasions, they have also been employed on mundane and wasteful tasks, such as VIP protection or protective tasks at higher headquarters.

This is quite instructive..The preamble is quite in line with what a lot of people (including rank amateurs like me!) have thought..It would be nice to have the full article ;posted somewhere..Though Gen Oberoi makes a minor bloomer..NSG is not under the Cabinet Secretariat, its under the Home Ministry....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 14 Mar 2009 17:49

Unfortunately , earlier attempts in the army to form SF units in the genre of Special Air Service (SAS) of UK, or the Special Operations Forces (SOF) of USA were met with skepticism, if not downright hostility.

Why?

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 14 Mar 2009 18:00

somnath wrote:
RayC wrote:An extract from Lt Gen Vijay Oberoi's article SPECIAL FORCES - REVAMP AND RESTRUCTURE

SF of India

two forces operating under the Cabinet Secretariat, viz. the NSG and the Special Frontier Force (SFF) and the Garuda Commando Force of the Indian Air Force.
This is quite instructive..The preamble is quite in line with what a lot of people (including rank amateurs like me!) have thought..It would be nice to have the full article ;posted somewhere..Though Gen Oberoi makes a minor bloomer..NSG is not under the Cabinet Secretariat, its under the Home Ministry....

That might be the 'official' classification but then why did Johnny Joseph send the request for NSG commandos to the Cabinet Secretary and not the Home Secretary when 26/11 took place? Just a thought.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 14 Mar 2009 20:49

Raja Bose wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Can you send your email address to me on sachmath1@gmail.com.

Incidentally I am a BrFite - Trainee hehheheh.
E-Mail sent! If you are who I think you are (you have one of the veteran's albums on B-R for the Bangladesh war?) then it is indeed interesting that you are classified as a trainee! Maybe B-R should have fast-track promotion policy for deserving individuals! Or perhaps I think you are the son of the veteran since he was SS and you are KS!

Rajaboseji... if the document isn't classified, could you mail it to me also if possible... my id is sniperz11s attherateof google mail DAT com.

TIA

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 14 Mar 2009 21:54

somnath wrote:
RayC wrote:An extract from Lt Gen Vijay Oberoi's article SPECIAL FORCES - REVAMP AND RESTRUCTURE

SF of India

The biggest component of SF is fielded by the Indian Army, but other forces too have SF of varying capabilities. Currently, the SF component of the Indian Army comprises a number of Para (SF) battalions. While five such battalions have existed for over a decade, the others were converted by re-designating all parachute battalions about three years ago. The other SF of India include a battalion of the Rashtriya Rifles – 31 RR (Commando), the Navy’s MARCOS, two forces operating under the Cabinet Secretariat, viz. the NSG and the Special Frontier Force (SFF) and the Garuda Commando Force of the Indian Air Force. Some states have designated some police units as Commandos but these are of little value. All these forces have different tasks, ranging from counter-insurgency to anti-hijacking, to guerrilla warfare and so on. The total strength of all the different forces combined, not counting the so-called police commandos, would be fairly substantial, and would compare favourably with the strengths of the SF of US and Russia.

Capable of carrying out only ‘direct action’ type of operations, like raids, direct and indirect assaults, and other attrition-oriented tasks, the various SF forces of India, however, are neither organised nor doctrinally prepared to carry out tasks which their counterparts in some other countries are capable of conducting. These include tasks like unconventional warfare, special deep reconnaissance, psychological operations, counter proliferation and sensitive special operations. Unfortunately , earlier attempts in the army to form SF units in the genre of Special Air Service (SAS) of UK, or the Special Operations Forces (SOF) of USA were met with skepticism, if not downright hostility.

The major reason is the focus of the Indian Army on attrition-oriented operations and linear thinking. Consequently, Para Commandos of the past, or Para (SF), as they are now termed, have largely been employed as super or elite-infantry, with a focus on attrition-dominated tasks. No doubt they have performed well, but they still are not trained for typical SF roles. On occasions, they have also been employed on mundane and wasteful tasks, such as VIP protection or protective tasks at higher headquarters.
This is quite instructive..The preamble is quite in line with what a lot of people (including rank amateurs like me!) have thought..It would be nice to have the full article ;posted somewhere..Though Gen Oberoi makes a minor bloomer..NSG is not under the Cabinet Secretariat, its under the Home Ministry....

I tried to Google, but it is not available.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 15 Mar 2009 11:02

vishal wrote:
That might be the 'official' classification but then why did Johnny Joseph send the request for NSG commandos to the Cabinet Secretary and not the Home Secretary when 26/11 took place? Just a thought.

That could be a plausible reason.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 15 Mar 2009 12:05

vishal wrote: That might be the 'official' classification but then why did Johnny Joseph send the request for NSG commandos to the Cabinet Secretary and not the Home Secretary when 26/11 took place? Just a thought.

Wel, the gaffe of the NSG movement from Delhi came from the Home Minister...Cabinet Secretary is a kind of a "secretary of all Secretaries" - maybe Johny Joseph had more than one help to ask of from the Centre, so he called the Cab Sec...

One more point - in case the NSG is under the Cab Sec, whats the chain of command? Who does the DG NSG report to? The Cabinet Secretary? Very unlikely...No "security force" reports to the Cab Sec...

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 15 Mar 2009 12:35

RayC,
How did you find the article Sir?
Can you please not post the artile in its entirety. Appreciate it.
I don' mind circulating it on a need to know basis

Regards

SK

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Mar 2009 18:29

Sachin sir,
Please do send a copy of the article to:
sripadmablr@dataone.in

(assuming its not a problem and one doesn't have to be vetted by "agencies" to receive the copy

)

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 15 Mar 2009 19:16

ks_sachin wrote:RayC,
How did you find the article Sir?
Can you please not post the artile in its entirety. Appreciate it.
I don' mind circulating it on a need to know basis
Regards

SK

I got an extract.

Not the full.

I contacted a friend.

The other e mail sent did not open.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Mar 2009 20:25

ks_sachin wrote:
Incidentally I am a BrFite - Trainee hehheheh.

Interesting.

REgards

That is because you changed your name.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 16 Mar 2009 01:01

Sachin,

Hope you received my response to your mail.

TIA.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 16 Mar 2009 03:32

shiv wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
Incidentally I am a BrFite - Trainee hehheheh.

Interesting.

REgards

That is because you changed your name.

Shiv,
The name has been the same since the day I joined..
Just that I took a sabattical from BR...
Cheers

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Mar 2009 00:25

The article is short and gets in to a few points of why the present structure as well as the way the SF are trained \organised is not really geared up for true SF work.

The lack of quick thinking on the IPS side requires that the NSG be headed by a Army guy. essentially the recent uttering of who should head the NSG is nonsense

wish the article was longer. seems it was under some constraint of length (maybe for some journal)

skher · Post by **skher** » 17 Mar 2009 01:08

The lack of quick thinking on the IPS side requires that the NSG be headed by a Army guy. essentially the recent uttering of who should head the NSG is nonsense

AFAIK KPS Gill and Kolkata Police did some VERY quick thinking respective to the encounters of the Punjab and Naxal insurgency kind

.

Merely belonging to army cadre doesn't always necessitate quick results.On the contrary; there is a huge standoff between the IAS and Army cadres and the IPS is the middle guy who can do some real quick thinking if need be and that too without necessarily getting slapped for no reason.

Aslo,is this to imply that DG JK Dutt wasn't quick to respond even though he did not have the aircraft to carry out the response?

Compare him and the participating MARCOS commandos who unilaterally went to the press even as the entire operation was in progress.
And then the Admiral tells NDTV that they covered badly.Whose men went up to them?
Now that's too quick thinking regarding briefing the press.

IMVVHO,this is not connected to the izzat issue.
NSG is armed forces aid to civilian authority.
Let it remain so because this ensures an exit policy for army personnel involved.
They want to go home and not to home affairs.

Skher

just reporting what the article says.

As you doubt its being open source,didn't see report link.So thought your opinion.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Mar 2009 01:13

Skher

just reporting what the article says.

other points come up in the article but since I am not sure if its open source - I will have to be mum

regards

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 17 Mar 2009 03:28

skher wrote:

The lack of quick thinking on the IPS side requires that the NSG be headed by a Army guy. essentially the recent uttering of who should head the NSG is nonsense

AFAIK KPS Gill and Kolkata Police did some VERY quick thinking respective to the encounters of the Punjab and Naxal insurgency kind .

Merely belonging to army cadre doesn't always necessitate quick results.On the contrary; there is a huge standoff between the IAS and Army cadres and the IPS is the middle guy who can do some real quick thinking if need be and that too without necessarily getting slapped for no reason.

Aslo,is this to imply that DG JK Dutt wasn't quick to respond even though he did not have the aircraft to carry out the response?

Compare him and the participating MARCOS commandos who unilaterally went to the press even as the entire operation was in progress.
And then the Admiral tells NDTV that they covered badly.Whose men went up to them?
Now that's too quick thinking regarding briefing the press.

IMVVHO,this is not connected to the izzat issue.
NSG is armed forces aid to civilian authority.
Let it remain so because this ensures an exit policy for army personnel involved.
They want to go home and not to home affairs.

Skher

just reporting what the article says.
As you doubt its being open source,didn't see report link.So thought your opinion.

skher,

The whole issue behind and IPS officer leading the NSG is not so much that an IPS officer is leading the NSG but the fact that the mindset of the leader is totally out of tune with the SF mindset.

And NSG is by mature a small outfit where the rank and file have to have the SF mentality. An IPS offr may not necessarily have this.

I am not saying all army offrs have this but they likely than not have a better appreciation of such offensive ops than an IPS officer.

and with regards to the Navy men speaking to the press - that is somethign that is a lot easier sorted than training an old Dog new tricks....

Two points and I quote---

• "A small immediate response team is always stationed at the Palam airport to respond at short notice. This should have been despatched immediately by commandeering an aircraft. They would have acted as the advance party, collected vital information and would have set the stage for the main body".
•"There was no need to wait for a slow flying aircraft to fetch up from Chandigarh, when the NSG is empowered by law to requisition any available aircraft, without waiting for any permission. Such on the spot decisions are the forte on which SF is organised, but policemen who head this elite force do not have the sense of urgency or the capacity to take such decisions".

Horses for courses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 17 Mar 2009 06:08

Again I am no expert here but from an outside perspective it seems the whole whole problem is of organisation rather than who is in charge of what. Both sachin and Rayc bring up great points but I guess the ques arises whether NSG should be a army type SF unit or a paramilitary urban anti-terrorist hostage rescue (HRT) squad. Why not open up the SAG to any police/army personnel who is able to complete and maintain the high standard of qualification. Does it matter where he came from if he can be of the same standard. Till now most NSG ops seems to be the hard and fast kind with no option of long term stealth as required by an army-SF unit so why burden the army with it. Of course the army folks who wanto go there for a stint be allowed as should those from the garud and Marcos units or whichever service he comes from. The training and selection period should take care of all cohesion issue. just my 2 paisa.
The main issue all seems to be logistics.
Does the NSG have an intelligence unit? something which keeps an eye out for possible hostage situation etc.. maybe something like that could be of better use too.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Mar 2009 08:53

NSG is a specialised HRT outfit...It is expected to work in specific scenarios with well defined threats...That is really police SWAT area..Army special forces have HRT as one of their deliverables, they train and aim for a lot more than that..NSG is not mandated to do that, it is a specialised super SWAT, if you may, outfit..Given that, I see no problem in NSG being headed by a police officer..More so because in the type of scenarios that NSG would operate in, there would be much more interactions with police/civilian authorities - local police, IB etc - a person from the civvie background would probably have better "networks" in the police setup than a services officer...

"Special forces" need not be from the services to be effective..There have been many examples of police/paramilitary operated special forces..The J&K SOG is an indigeneous example...Its very very situational and task specific...

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Mar 2009 09:30

The NSG should be bifurcated.

The half that is to oversee VIP security should be headed by a Policeman since that is their forte. It requires greater interactivity with the local police setup and would thus be ideal for a Policeman to head it with police personnel, who are already aware of VIP security aspects.

Police is not geared, as yet, to carry out Commando operations and so the 'enforcement' aspect of the NSG is army manned. Hence, should be headed by an Army personnel. The hubs should facilitate a working relation with the local police.

It maybe noted that the Army has always been effective and in a short span of time whenever called out to aid the civil administration in case of national emergencies, be it a natural disaster or a riot. Therefore, the issue of liaison with the administration and police is not an issue. It maybe noted that the situation is handed over to the Army since the police apparently has not been able to handle the law and order problems.

When the chips are down - the police and administration act on that naughty line - any port in stormy weather! They are not very choosy about sharing information or rendering information!

The J&K SOG comprises of Ikhwanis and so they cannot be compared since they are ex militants and are well aware of the terrorist modus operandi, of their personnel and their tactics.

That is the reason why PDP (pro militant political party and in govt then) was hell bent on disbanding them!

They are of great help as the Mukti Bahini (for info) in the 1971 War.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Mar 2009 10:10

RayC,

Bifurcating the NSG will create another organisation in our spaghetti noodle setup - far better to entrust the VIP security bit to an exsting CPMF - CISF for example..NSG can then concentrate on its core mandate on being an elite HRT unit..Quite frankly who the top job goes to - police or Army, is of less significance than many of the other problems facing the organisation..But the overall chain of command of the NSG IMHO should remain in the civilian line.As I said before, Army SF train for much larger mandates than HRT, and the services chain of command on special forces itself is a bit of a mess in absence of a special ops command..

The J&K SOG comprises of Ikhwanis and so they cannot be compared since they are ex militants and are well aware of the terrorist modus operandi, of their personnel and their tactics.

True, but as the motto of the Jungle Warfare School goes - "fight a guerilla like a guerilla", or something like that!

Its situational, isnt it? In fact by many accounts the seperatists in Kashmir dread the SOG more than they dread the IA, part of the reaosn why the PDP types have been asking for their disbanding..But they are obviously useful, the Mufti govt simply absorbed them in the J&K Police rather than disbanding them! So even if they are not called a "special force" and dont sport fancy gear, they are obviously very effective in the environment..

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 17 Mar 2009 11:40

RayC I would completely agree with you if this was 1980 but since then numerous state police units i.e Punjab Police, JKP, delhi police etc.. have shown to some extent that they can carry out commando like actions. Albeit not as good as the army but that would be due to training rather than individual caliber.

I don't believe the army has any more or less problems with civil liaison than would be any outside team from ITBP or CISF. Non-armed forces units can become excellent hostage rescue/anti-terrorist teams. Case in point the FBI's-HRT manned exclusively by FBI agents with more than 3 years field experience. They are considered good enough that they have even served in Afghanistan and Iraq (according to their website). Also GSG9 is completely manned by civilian police officers.

I think its time pressure be put onto the civilian infrastructure for protection rather than always have to run to the army.

I would say open it to all who can survive and meet the expectations.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Mar 2009 12:05

Actually, the complete NSG should be staffed by the police. Better command and control. Better coordination within their organisation and maybe better liaison with the police since they wear the same uniform, though that is a moot point.

The only problem that, in the final analysis, it is the Army that is called out first. Take riots, take law and order problems not amounting to riots, but threaten peace or natural calamities.

If all these were FIRST handled by the authorities responsible instead of the Army, then things would be perfect.

To be frank, the Armed Forces do not revel in such activities since too much of such activities (except natural disasters) can lead to bad blood as in Kashmir. The police is the ideal force, but then they must also exert themselves more to execute their primary task!

The unfortunate part is that quite a few in govt, things the Armed Forces is their panacea of all problems.

Gujarat could have been handled by the Central Police organisations and yet it was the Army as is always all the time!

Even the Communists who take the Army as a repressive arm of the capitalist govt did not hesitate to call out the Army in both Kolkata and Siliguri. I am sure their RAF and all that could have handled the show!

Take the Asiads or the Commonwealth Games - again the burden was shouldered by the Army! I am sure there is no dearth of competent personalities and agencies to handle these events!

Therefore, the halfway home of NSG serves neither man or beast!

Take the Mumbai carnage. The NSG can requisition any aircraft they desire and there are no dearth of aircraft, yet they had to await a slow flying aircraft to come from Chandigarh to take them to Mumbai. The NSG head was bumbling over the political fallout on his job, if there was hell to pay for commandeering an aircraft since the aviation people have the ear of the govt and would not like losses or ruining of their schedules and earning the wrath of the travelling public!

I am all for the NSG be staffed by the Police with their own head and all for the Police taking over law and order problems without the govt calling out the Army as a first resort!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Mar 2009 12:19

Indeed, the best way forward would be to create SWAT teams in the local police, especially urban police organisations. All the "special units" within police orgs have been counter insurgency forces (J&K SOG, AP Greyhounds etc)..the reason is simple - funding..All these special counter insurgency forces receive central funding to be set up -the better states make use of the same to create competent units...Urban policing has never received that type of central attention..That is why I find the idea of creating NSG hubs so sub optimal - so much quicker to use the same funding to set up police SWAT units, cross train them with the NSG, and let NSG focus on becoming the elite HRT force that its mission is...

RayC, Asian Games etc are wrong example to quote on "over use of Army in civilian activities" - these events need large numbers of security personnel, and in nearly every country the Army is the largest repository of trained SF - China used its Army during the Olympics, Australia did during Sydney - pretty much every country does the same thing!

About the NSG commandeering an aircraft - I am not sure it was part of the NSG act earlier..I think its an exec order passed now after the Mumbai event...In history, commandeering civvie aircraft has never been a problem - remember the Kashmir operation - we commandeered pretty much the entire aircraft fleet of the coiuntry!!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Mar 2009 13:19

somnath wrote:Indeed, the best way forward would be to create SWAT teams in the local police, especially urban police organisations. All the "special units" within police orgs have been counter insurgency forces (J&K SOG, AP Greyhounds etc)..the reason is simple - funding..All these special counter insurgency forces receive central funding to be set up -the better states make use of the same to create competent units...Urban policing has never received that type of central attention..That is why I find the idea of creating NSG hubs so sub optimal - so much quicker to use the same funding to set up police SWAT units, cross train them with the NSG, and let NSG focus on becoming the elite HRT force that its mission is...

RayC, Asian Games etc are wrong example to quote on "over use of Army in civilian activities" - these events need large numbers of security personnel, and in nearly every country the Army is the largest repository of trained SF - China used its Army during the Olympics, Australia did during Sydney - pretty much every country does the same thing!

About the NSG commandeering an aircraft - I am not sure it was part of the NSG act earlier..I think its an exec order passed now after the Mumbai event...In history, commandeering civvie aircraft has never been a problem - remember the Kashmir operation - we commandeered pretty much the entire aircraft fleet of the coiuntry!!

Just wish to clarify that Lt Gen Vijay Oberio did not make a bloomer as was suggested by you in the Special Forces thread. It is just that most are not aware.

The National Security Guards (NSG) was raised by the Cabinet Secretariat under the National Security Guard Act of 1985.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/archives/archive.html

Their being allowed to requisition is not a new phenomenon. Even the Army can requisition in case of an emergency and so can the district administration! Part of the long reach of the govt!

The issue is that if the SWATs are so capable as has been made out to be in various posts by many, then why waste finances and why duplicate by having the NSG? What could be the elitist tasks and what would be the mundane. Violent acts, no matter what they are, by terrorists are not normal - they are all extraordinary and require extraordinary addressing.

I would not be able to comment on the Greyounds and its funding, but since the SOG worked closely with the Army including my Division in J&K, I can only say that that was hardly funding and the members were given a pay which was not really extraordinary, given that they were putting their lives in the line of fire of their ex comrades, who knew them and where they lived and who their family members are!!

It was not the security that was the responsibility of the Army in the Asaids, but the whole administrative and conduct support too! KP Singhdeo, the Minister, was responsible for the same. One should not compare China with any other country. They are extraordinary being a totalitarian regime. Could you let us know what the Australian Army did? Let us take your contention that during the Asiad, the security alone was entrusted to the Army (which is not the case), but why should security be an Army responsibility. Surely, the police is responsible for security and they should have been entrusted with that! There was as there is adequate central Police organisations and there was no Kashmir on at that time!

If SWATs are capable and adequate, why have other organisations elite or otherwise? What is the special tasks that the elite NSG is to do?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 17 Mar 2009 13:32

During Atlanta Olympics, US Army's Delta was in fact deployed for security. Ofcourse that didn't prevent things from getting messed up.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 17 Mar 2009 13:35

I know we had this discussion before re. local SWATs, NSG etc. not too long ago. I still think that training police SWAT and bringing them up to the mark (even as a holding force) will take time, money and some deft politics. Even if such units are being set up, in the meantime, the NSG hubs will have to do as an interim (albeit flawed) measure.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Mar 2009 14:02

RayC wrote: Just wish to clarify that Lt Gen Vijay Oberio did not make a bloomer as was suggested by you in the Special Forces thread. It is just that most are not aware.

The National Security Guards (NSG) was raised by the Cabinet Secretariat under the National Security Guard Act of 1985.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/archives/archive.html

Their being allowed to requisition is not a new phenomenon. Even the Army can requisition in case of an emergency and so can the district administration! Part of the long reach of the govt!

The issue is that if the SWATs are so capable as has been made out to be in various posts by many, then why waste finances and why duplicate by having the NSG? What could be the elitist tasks and what would be the mundane. Violent acts, no matter what they are, by terrorists are not normal - they are all extraordinary and require extraordinary addressing.

I would not be able to comment on the Greyounds and its funding, but since the SOG worked closely with the Army including my Division in J&K, I can only say that that was hardly funding and the members were given a pay which was not really extraordinary, given that they were putting their lives in the line of fire of their ex comrades, who knew them and where they lived and who their family members are!!

It was not the security that was the responsibility of the Army in the Asaids, but the whole administrative and conduct support too! KP Singhdeo, the Minister, was responsible for the same. One should not compare China with any other country. They are extraordinary being a totalitarian regime. Could you let us know what the Australian Army did? Let us take your contention that during the Asiad, the security alone was entrusted to the Army (which is not the case), but why should security be an Army responsibility. Surely, the police is responsible for security and they should have been entrusted with that! There was as there is adequate central Police organisations and there was no Kashmir on at that time!

If SWATs are capable and adequate, why have other organisations elite or otherwise? What is the special tasks that the elite NSG is to do?

Well, about NSG - the key word is "raised by the Cabinet Secretariat", not "under" it...NSG works under the supervision of the Union home Ministry...All orgs under the Cabinet Secretariat reports to either the CAb Sec, or the PM or to an officer in the PMO, DG NSG reports to the Home Minster...Anyway, minor point.......Confirmed by Wiki..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Guards

About Sydney Olympics, some details about Ops Gold..http://www.army.gov.au/2_17RNSWR/OpGold.htm

All countries do the same thing..the reason is simple - these are high profile events requiring saturation coverage (and these days, tech supported) of security personnel - the only entity that has so many SF personnel under one roof is the Army....City police forces nowhere have the capacity to deal with the numbers needed for such events...

During the Delhi Asian games, while there was no Kashmir, Punjab was nearing the boiling point - the infamous Anandpur Sahib resolution (it was before the Asiad, wasnt it?), rise of Bhindrawale, assassination of civilians and polciemen and politicians, and radio bombs in Delhi..So there was a threat that we had not encountered before..

About police SWAT teams v/s NSG - the question is really of scale and complexity..Say the difference between the NYPD SWAT and FBI HRT..A Batla house type situation should be doable with the police SWAT team, while a Mumbai type affair would require the NSG..And a competent police SWAT would do a holding job till the NSG comes in even in the latter..

I am not sure the NSG hubs can be set up quicker..Land acquisition, setting up infra, recruiting so many more "elite" commandos..All these are time consuming tasks...Probably quicker to just station some troopers in a city..But then what happens to their training etc, they would need to be rotated continuously..

On SOG, all insurgency related expenditure of state governments are typically defrayed by the central govt, at least in a large measure...The trend was started by IK Gujral, who waived off some 3k crores of Punjab's debt to the centre which was incurred in security related heads...Since then, central governments have tended to simply adopt a "pay as you go" approach to this! There is in fact a rush among various states to get districts declared "naxal affected", so that they can get the special central grant!!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Mar 2009 15:07

somnath wrote:
RayC wrote:

Well, about NSG - the key word is "raised by the Cabinet Secretariat", not "under" it...NSG works under the supervision of the Union home Ministry...All orgs under the Cabinet Secretariat reports to either the CAb Sec, or the PM or to an officer in the PMO, DG NSG reports to the Home Minster...Anyway, minor point.......Confirmed by Wiki..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Guards

About Sydney Olympics, some details about Ops Gold..http://www.army.gov.au/2_17RNSWR/OpGold.htm

All countries do the same thing..the reason is simple - these are high profile events requiring saturation coverage (and these days, tech supported) of security personnel - the only entity that has so many SF personnel under one roof is the Army....City police forces nowhere have the capacity to deal with the numbers needed for such events...

During the Delhi Asian games, while there was no Kashmir, Punjab was nearing the boiling point - the infamous Anandpur Sahib resolution (it was before the Asiad, wasnt it?), rise of Bhindrawale, assassination of civilians and polciemen and politicians, and radio bombs in Delhi..So there was a threat that we had not encountered before..

About police SWAT teams v/s NSG - the question is really of scale and complexity..Say the difference between the NYPD SWAT and FBI HRT..A Batla house type situation should be doable with the police SWAT team, while a Mumbai type affair would require the NSG..And a competent police SWAT would do a holding job till the NSG comes in even in the latter..

I am not sure the NSG hubs can be set up quicker..Land acquisition, setting up infra, recruiting so many more "elite" commandos..All these are time consuming tasks...Probably quicker to just station some troopers in a city..But then what happens to their training etc, they would need to be rotated continuously..

On SOG, all insurgency related expenditure of state governments are typically defrayed by the central govt, at least in a large measure...The trend was started by IK Gujral, who waived off some 3k crores of Punjab's debt to the centre which was incurred in security related heads...Since then, central governments have tended to simply adopt a "pay as you go" approach to this! There is in fact a rush among various states to get districts declared "naxal affected", so that they can get the special central grant!!

The Wiki, which you quoted states "The NSG operates under the oversight of the Ministry of Home Affairs".

One wonders why the Cabinet Sectt raised it on behalf of the Home Ministry. Rather an odd way to get about with raising any organisation, when an Act of Parliament would do sufficiently to lay down the parameters ab initio!

How is it that other Central organisations were not raised by the Cabinet Sectt and instead by the Home Ministry. There must be some good reason!

The Australian 2nd Division provided personnel for operational search and general support duties leading up to and during the 2000 Sydney Olympic and Paralympic Games.

During the Asiad, the complete organisation was under the Army! Please check that out with those who you know in the Govt. Would be obliged if you can furnish details.

The other countries (not China) do not have the multitude of Central Police Forces as India has. Hence, maybe they have to resort to using the Army. Thus, your comparison is not correct. India had many such Central Police Forces and so the Army should not have been pressed into service and it was not just those in Delhi. Troops and equipment and vehicles were pressed into service from many formations!

Asiad was in 1982, and the Golden Temple issue was 1984. I fail to see the connection. Was there any huge deployment of Central Police organisation in the Punjab in 1982? If there was none, then obviously it was not taken as a serious issue in 1982. If it were then there would surely be military at alert as it was thereafter and with a huge deployment of other central forces. Thus, your drawing conclusions is a trifle forced, if I may say!

The Anandpur Resolution or Anandpur Sahib Resolution was a political statement made by a Sikh political party, the Shiromani Akali Dal in 1973.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anandpur_Sahib_Resolution

If it were such a threat, then in 1973, there should have been the deployments and 1973 and 1982 is about 9 years in difference. What was the govt doing during this intervening period and then suddenly getting worried in 1982, as per your statement! Too much of a stretch in the justification.

BTW, Master Tara Singh has been at it for years! And none were worried! The Sikh issue is not a new one. There have been merely changes in the leadership of nascent 'religious militancy'. Bhindrenwale was just another one of them and he shot in prominence and notoriety way after. Killings in the Punjab are a daily affair.

The issue of the SOG is not whether the expenditure is defrayed by the Central Govt. The issue that you raised that they are good enough as the NSG. They are not. Yet, they are good for what they are tasked for. Chalk and cheese!

As far as training for NSG personnel, if one understood how the Army training is done, one would not be alarmed. They would do the same as the Army, Navy and Air Force does, even though they are deployed along the length and breadth of India!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Mar 2009 16:04

RayC,

For someone who seems to have "been around" during Asiad 1982, I am surprised you think there was no great threat...I was too young to remember personally, but every account that I read of those times present a very different picture..Bhindralwale had already started publishing his infamous "hit lists" in newspapers, Lala Jagat Narain was killed in broad daylight in 1981, Bhindrawale carried out that "armed march" through the streets of Delhi, Delhi saw the first bomb blasts....KPS Gill covers it very well in his book on the Punjab insurgency, so does Col Vivek Chaddha, in less detail, in his (quite analytical) book of various LICs in India...there are passing references in lots of other books - I remember "India after independence" by Bipin Chandra et al...Net net, to say that things were "normal" vis a vis Punjab in 1982 is simple not right..

How is it that other Central organisations were not raised by the Cabinet Sectt and instead by the Home Ministry. There must be some good reason!

dont know, but maybe the first lot was trained up by the SFF?!

About NSG training, its about the infra in various places..IA alreay has that infra set up - for NSG, they need to set it up now in 4 different places - its a challenge to set up large projects in cities, doesnt happen quickly..

I didnt say SOG is as "good" as the NSG - I said that they are effective in their domain, even if they are not fancily kitted out...Good is a situational word isnt it?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 17 Mar 2009 17:20

What is normal for someone living in and through the Punjab in those days may differ to someone seeing it from the outside...

Having said that I think what we are all saying in one way shape or form is..

- Army has to be used in aid og civil admin as a LAST RESORT. or in a special case..
- NSG is not special forces and hence should be staffed from within other paramilitary forces
- The NSG should become a specialist outfit with various areas of expertise which ally closely with policing - HRT / VIP security etc.
- THe Armed forces special forces - Para SF / Marcos / Garud etc need a doctrinal shift from how they have been used thus far
- SF doctrine and strategy has to be tied in with a political and strategic doctrine on the use of SF
- At a operational level the SF as well as the NSG have to be come indedepdent i.e. not reliant on others - for training / int / sig int etc etc.
- Any army SF has to have good interoperability with the Marcos and Garuds
- What we want as a SF from the armed forces is a Chindit like force
- What we want from the NSG is a specialist HRT outfit with its own HRT and urban operations ethos

Right now we are nither here nor there -
We have brave men and officers but no strategy
We have people at logger heads over what who commands without going into the details of these forces are to be used tactically or strategically

There has to be a proper strucutre for the NSG to operate effectively

There has to be a proper structure for the Armed Forces to operate effectively

More to write but it is rather late......

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Mar 2009 17:45

somnath wrote:RayC,

For someone who seems to have "been around" during Asiad 1982, I am surprised you think there was no great threat...I was too young to remember personally, but every account that I read of those times present a very different picture..Bhindralwale had already started publishing his infamous "hit lists" in newspapers, Lala Jagat Narain was killed in broad daylight in 1981, Bhindrawale carried out that "armed march" through the streets of Delhi, Delhi saw the first bomb blasts....KPS Gill covers it very well in his book on the Punjab insurgency, so does Col Vivek Chaddha, in less detail, in his (quite analytical) book of various LICs in India...there are passing references in lots of other books - I remember "India after independence" by Bipin Chandra et al...Net net, to say that things were "normal" vis a vis Punjab in 1982 is simple not right..

How is it that other Central organisations were not raised by the Cabinet Sectt and instead by the Home Ministry. There must be some good reason!
About NSG training, its about the infra in various places..IA alreay has that infra set up - for NSG, they need to set it up now in 4 different places - its a challenge to set up large projects in cities, doesnt happen quickly..

During the Asiad I was not only around but also quite aware of the happenings of the country in so far as the the external and internal threats. Events of those days may appear alarming to you, but it was not so for the Indians of that time

Yes, Lala Jagat Narain of Punjab Kesari was killed. Bhindrenwale organised the killing because of Narain's criticism of the internecine fight amongst the Sikhs and the Nirankaris (who while they dress and appear like Sikhs are not taken by Sikhs to be Sikhs) and there has been this type of warfare for decades! And Narain was an Arya Samajist. As I said, such killings may appal you, but it is common place in the Punjab. Now, should we stop all activities and gear up because of the Sikhs being angered by the Dera Sacha Sauda issue and he activities of the Head, Ram Rahim Singh? That is also quite grave! Imagine a person dressing up as Guru Gobind Singh!! It may not be serious for you, but the Gurshikhs are inflamed! And a Sikh inflamed is a Sikh that becomes beyond reason!

Are you aware that the Sodhis of Kartarpur, who are descendants of Guru Arjan Dev and were handed over the Adi Granth, written by Guru Arjan Dev, along with other properties by Guru Teg Bahadur, has asserted that the original bir is their 'heritage', is 'very safe' and its location is a 'secret' that they do not intend to reveal. The Punjab govt wants them to hand over the same to the SGPC and they have declined to do so. Another flashpoint. At this rate, India would be on the stand to all the time!!

Quoting a few books does not change the reality. The Anandpur Resolution of 1973 if was such a serious threat, then we should have been at stand to from that time. Apparently, you tend to exaggerate to suit your convenience! To me it appears that you situate the appreciation, rather than appreciate the situation.

While KPS Gill has done well, but he is a publicity hunter. He wants to live a larger than life image grinding and milking his one achievement and go the whole course! He is also responsible for the demise of Indian hockey! Of that he says little! Remember how he deftly weaselled out of the money for selection of the Indian hockey team? He is after all a seasoned policeman!

Netnet, from the reality standpoint, 1982 was just another year!

In so far as Special Forces are concerned, while ostensibly they are under overt organisations and ministries, can one say for sure what reality is? To believe that the VCOAS does not know, is stating that the PM knows not what he does!

In so far as the SOG and Greyhounds, you may like to go through what you have written.

Indeed, the best way forward would be to create SWAT teams in the local police, especially urban police organisations. All the "special units" within police orgs have been counter insurgency forces (J&K SOG, AP Greyhounds etc)..the reason is simple - funding..All these special counter insurgency forces receive central funding to be set up -the better states make use of the same to create competent units...Urban policing has never received that type of central attention..That is why I find the idea of creating NSG hubs so sub optimal - so much quicker to use the same funding to set up police SWAT units, cross train them with the NSG, and let NSG focus on becoming the elite HRT force that its mission is...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Mar 2009 18:46

Netnet, from the reality standpoint, 1982 was just another year!

Why then did the entire security machinery gear up to "search" Sikhs entering Delhi? There were so many quoted incidents of the police frisking Sikhs in abominable manner..A lot of the writings of that period does quote the Asiad experience as one of the last straws on the back for the Sikh militancy..

In so far as the SOG and Greyhounds, you may like to go through what you have written.

which part do you find inaccurate?