ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 13 Mar 2009 04:12

jaladipc wrote:Isnt there a propellant which is neither solid not liquid and works entirely like a liquid propellant to stop firing the engine at any point of time and works like a solid propellant in terms of life can be stored for a min of 5-8 years once the missile is filled up.
It actuallly looks like a hand sanitizer kinda solution and to enhance the performance, they are using a small pressurizer kinda place at the top point of the container to keep the paste going down into the combustion chamber and is relatively controlled by a small micro processor.I witnessed this in a lab in university of waterloo when a jingo of mine introduced to his prof and who detailed me rest.

Even if a education institution is working on it means, definetly DRDO might be working on it or already mastered the propulsion tech.

Jaladipc
That gel type propellent is the newest thing. If you read Arun's words carefully, you may get the right answer.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 13 Mar 2009 04:33

jaladipc wrote:Isnt there a propellant which is neither solid not liquid and works entirely like a liquid propellant to stop firing the engine at any point of time and works like a solid propellant in terms of life can be stored for a min of 5-8 years once the missile is filled up.
It actuallly looks like a hand sanitizer kinda solution and to enhance the performance, they are using a small pressurizer kinda place at the top point of the container to keep the paste going down into the combustion chamber and is relatively controlled by a small micro processor.I witnessed this in a lab in university of waterloo when a jingo of mine introduced to his prof and who detailed me rest.

Even if a education institution is working on it means, definetly DRDO might be working on it or already mastered the propulsion tech.

Perhaps those propellants have Thixotropic behaviour. Gel when stationary but liquid like behaviour once combustion or mechanically induced turbulence shakes them.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 13 Mar 2009 07:49

Sid wrote:Compared to other ABM missiles (SM3/Aster) our PAD is just too big and cumbersome for production/deployment at strategic level i.e. ship-launched system.

If DRDO is thinking about shifting to other missile model for high altitude interception, why invest so much in current Prithvi model? Or current PAD is just a proof of concept

Yindoos already planned the naval version of the phase-II system on board the 4 destroyers to be built from 2015.Basically these are the escort ships for the future carriers.
so wotever materializes in the name of ABM at present will be a demo sort of thing.AAD will stay alive while PAD will be replaced with the newer system.And according to the lip moments in the dhaba gardens i am assuming that PDV will be the one to go onboard the naval vessels ..

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 13 Mar 2009 08:58

Arun_S wrote:There the local temperature drops very significantly and one starts to see vapor condensation, it becomes even more visible as the missile flys through -55 deg C rarified air.

One board member asserts it is contrail, but I am very sure it is not contrail, but condensation of H2O from burnt fuel.

Hi Arun. I really don't see where you disagree with me lest you are literaly taking it to be specific to aircrafts. I just used the term in general sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrail

Contrails (short for "condensation trails") or vapour trails are visible trails of condensed water vapour made by the exhaust of aircraft engines. As the hot exhaust gases cool in the surrounding air they may precipitate a cloud of microscopic water droplets. If the air is cold enough, this trail will comprise tiny ice crystals.

At high altitudes this water vapour emerges into a cold environment, and the local increase in water vapour can push the water content of the air past saturation point. The vapour then condenses into tiny water droplets and/or deposits into ice.

The reduction in pressure and temperature across each vortex can cause water to condense and make the cores of the wingtip vortices visible.

Cheers....

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 13 Mar 2009 09:58

neerajb: My bad. I read contrail to mean only atmospheric condensation due to aerodynamic surfaces induced condensation of apriori humidity in the air, like at wing tip at high Angle of Attack, or ablation vapors of a RV.
You are correct we are saying the same thing, no difference.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 13 Mar 2009 12:55

Missile defence: Deploy early to foil foreign lobby
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1238543

New Delhi: The government should immediately deploy the indigenously developed missile defence system and foil efforts by foreign arms lobbies to push through their systems, military sources said.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) flight-tested the third ballistic missile interceptor on March 6. The earlier two tests were also successful. Scientists and military sources say India should not repeat the blunders committed in development of Arjun tank and Akash missile. In fact, "immediate deployment" was the need of the hour.

The project to develop defense against incoming ballistic missiles is one of the most expensive by India. DRDO said it will perfect the first stage system in two years and carry out integrated tests in exo and endo atmospheric regionsby year-end.But, deployment of any system would mean they would be mass produced. That would bring down cost per piece, and improve technology. "In most of our indigenous projects, delay in serial production has been a setback," a defence ministry source said.Citing main battle tank Arjun, a senior army official said, "Had it been pushed into serial production, the product would have been significantly better today. As its production was stalled, Arjun fell behind other products of its class."

Similar was the case of Akash, a surface-to-air missile with a 30km range. "Had the air force inducted it in large numbers, economies of scale would have ensured Akash became cheaper. But since the promised large scale induction did not happen, foreign missile systems are taking its place," a DRDO source said.

DRDO chief Dr M Natarajan recently said in Bangalore, the Air Force had inducted eight Akash squadrons, but after the then IAF chief retired, the new air chief brought down the order to two squadrons.

The call for immediate deployment comes in the light of intense pressure from the US to sell PAC-III and Aegis missile defence systemsto India.Russia and Israel too have their own defence systems and powerful lobbies capable of influencing decisions here.

Bharat · Post by **Bharat** » 14 Mar 2009 08:38

The report is correct. If we don't deploy and try to develop best in the world system, it just makes it impossible.
DRDO has got the right approach in breaking down the various stages. An early deployment would also clear out various operational issues, provide a better understanding of requirements.
Plus, DRDO is providing a technology. The end user is the strategic forces and especially the air force. The ABM's and SAM's have to be included in the defence plans, which might end up requiring a re-alignment of air bases to better protect our strategic locations, radar's and missiles.

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 14 Mar 2009 11:56

.Here is a video from on interceptor missile from DRDO. I am not sure if this is a duplicate here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5g_XbY34oI

gauravjkale · Post by **gauravjkale** » 14 Mar 2009 13:55

intercepters seems to be too slow during liftoff compared to previous vedios...

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 14 Mar 2009 14:25

Yes it had just had lunch, so was a little sluggish.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Mar 2009 14:36

gauravjkale wrote:intercepters seems to be too slow during liftoff compared to previous vedios...

Slow boost phase is a problem for liquid fuelled rocket, but if you would have read this thread , Arun has mentioned that we are testing the 2nd Stage which is the real kill vehical and once we are through , we can replace the first liquid stage with a solid booster with flex nozzle , we already have some nice energetic first stage via Shourya.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 14 Mar 2009 16:26

Report from DNA new paper is very opt and timely.

I was alos wondering soem time back, If our ABM shieldf is better than American PAC missile then what is the need of looking for purchase of Americana nd Israeli SHIELD systems?

DRDO should learn the art of successful planning and scheduling from ISRO and we should start induction ASAP and then do continual improvements after the production started.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 14 Mar 2009 18:32

here is the problem itself.....

people start saying words about DRDO`s planning and schedule while comparing that with ISRO.and they often forget the main thing that ISRO works for itself while DRDO has to work for 3 different forces.Keeping in mind that these forces dont often change the GSQR,ASQR and other stuff.
It is regretable that DRDO might have too a decade more to come up with the final product, but we do have to consider the other side of the situation that DRDO is facing.One is the man power with high attrition rate where people who just look at few more bucks simply quit the nationals patriotic organization of scientific behaviour and go and join in some BPO/phoreign outsourcing companies while literally selling themself(in this case no regrets and no pride while working for money and where money is your concern and not the nation is..)And other main thing in the name of funds being sanctioned as tirupathi swamy prasadham to develop a whole lot of systems for a more than a million armed forces.How fair is it to blame them who started developing a main battle tank where there is no proper R&D in India for a freaken CAR?And all those bhismas who sarted their carrier in DRDO are still continuing thier job just becos of the part of patriotic mentality in the small port side of their brain .If they do look for bucks, then we may hardly see any completed system in India.HAIL DRDO.......

and this is wot happenes most of the time when people do compare with phoreigners in terms of technology.It is in the west where the industrial revolution took place first of all and apart from their basic defence needs they more concentrated on their domestic/civilian needs and industrialised them which in return did the ultimate favour while transitioning those civilian into defence.We as a nation named INdia started developing late than the west.And now we are trying to catch up given the opportunity.It will be a bare 10 years at maximum to nullify these differences.(even though you can feel proud that we as Indians catching up with the same developmental prospects of the west who annihilated us for centuries and destroyed our economic the once gigantic.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Mar 2009 02:41

This apparently seems to be the AAD seeker as per the datasheet

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... d.jpg.html

Image Courtesy P. Kartik Kumar

Does anyone have more information on this?

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 15 Mar 2009 08:57

tsarkar wrote:This apparently seems to be the AAD seeker as per the datasheet

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... d.jpg.html

Image Courtesy P. Kartik Kumar

Does anyone have more information on this?

Correct.
I am disappointed they have put this out in public display.
Surely DRDO bums will expose other family jewels too and do the same for other strategic systems including THE bum

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 17 Mar 2009 07:28

Aerial ambush

I am not sure about Week's archival policy, so posting in full.

As ballistic missile Dhanush lifted off INS Subhadra on the afternoon of March 6 and swooped towards the Orissa coast 150 km away, only Dr V.K. Saraswat knew where it was going to strike. But he kept quiet.
In 50 seconds radars at Konark and Paradip picked up the incoming missile, which was racing out of the earth's atmosphere, and 'informed' the mission control centre. The centre's computers declared the missile 'hostile' and, from its flight path, assessed its target.

Within 160 seconds of the radars picking up the target, Saraswat's newest missile lifted off and raced at a speed of 3,500 metres per second out of the earth's atmosphere. The mission: kill the hostile missile before it reentered the atmosphere. As it climbed sharply, ground radars fed its embedded computers with the enemy's position, trajectory and velocity-all this in 100 milliseconds. Soon the interceptor's radio frequency homing seeker spotted the enemy and went for the kill. As chances of missing a direct hit are high, the interceptor's new gimballed directional warhead burst within nine metres of the 'hostile' missile and blew it into smithereens-a safe 80km away from the intended target.

It was a hat-trick for Saraswat and the Defence Research and Development Organisation of which he is the chief controller of missile systems. In November 2006, he had killed an incoming missile 48km away from the earth and outside the atmosphere. And in December 2007, he had killed another one inside the atmosphere, just 15km from the target. And towards the end of this year, Saraswat wants to kill two birds with one stone: an endo- and an exo-atmospheric test in one go.

The third successful test has put India in an exclusive club-with the US, Russia and Israel-of countries which are developing their own ballistic missile defence systems. Saraswat hopes to have the system in place by 2011. It will also track Pakistani and Chinese atom-tipped missiles with a network of ground-based early warning radars.
The system can take care of threats from all Pakistani missiles, which have ranges less than 2,000 km. For taking care of ICBMs (intercontinental ballistic missiles) "you need interceptors which can fly 6,000 to 7,000 metres per second," said a DRDO scientist. Saraswat wants to develop it as the next phase, while simultaneously planning for two more tests with the present capability. "You need at least five tests in this phase," said he.

Can the enemy jam the system and mislead the interceptor? Yes, the enemy would try to jam the ?frequency of the data-link between the radars and the interceptor. "So ?we have catered for frequency diversity," said Saraswat. "And the interceptor batteries would be distributed. Even if they jam one or two, the remaining would be working."

DRDO officials concede that an enemy would be launching a volley of missiles. "My radar can handle 200 targets simultaneously," said Saraswat. He is confident that with sufficient batteries of interceptor missiles, even volley attacks can be neutralised. DRDO has been working on ballistic missile defence technologies since the mid-1990s. "Some 400 industries are involved in various associated programmes," said Saraswat.

But Saraswat's big dream is to develop hypersonic missiles-which fly at five times the speed of sound-for the ballistic missile defence system. It is learnt that DRDO labs are working on two of them, and a hypersonic wind tunnel has been set up in Hyderabad to test them.

Meanwhile, with the impending acquisition of air-based surveillance platforms, scientists hope to extend the surveillance range beyond the present 600 km to more than 2,000 km into enemy territory. That, incidentally, is more than the distance between the two farthest points in Pakistan. "We have to look at our neighbourhood, our geography and the threat we have," said Brigadier (retd) Gurmeet Kanwal, director, Centre for Land Warfare Studies. "That should determine what defence system we need to defend our country. It is crucial that we are on our way to having a missile defence system."

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 17 Mar 2009 14:00

apologies if posted earlier

Gimballed Directional Warhead of PAD

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 18 Mar 2009 11:55

parshuram wrote:apologies if posted earlier

Gimballed Directional Warhead of PAD

Sorry, I don't understand. How is directionality demonstrated in the the highly circular black envelope? What am I missing?

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 18 Mar 2009 12:00

PratikDas wrote: Sorry, I don't understand. How is directionality demonstrated in the the highly circular black envelope? What am I missing?

Username changed from pratik_das_oz to PratikDas

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 18 Mar 2009 20:26

jaladipc wrote:here is the problem itself.....

people start saying words about DRDO`s planning and schedule while comparing that with ISRO.and they often forget the main thing that ISRO works for itself while DRDO has to work for 3 different forces.Keeping in mind that these forces dont often change the GSQR,ASQR and other stuff.
.

Now see this !
it speaks for itself ! time is efficiency in project management ! irrespective of what ever disadvantages we have in our DRDO, Its ultimately time and SPEED!

BrahMos Aerospace chief gets 'Level A Project Directorship' New Delhi (PTI): DRDO's distinguished scientist and BrahMos Aerospace chief A Sivathanu Pillai on Tuesday received a 'Level A Project Directorship' certificate for his contribution to and expertise in project management. The certificate was awarded by the International Project Management Association (IPMA), Switzerland -- a body of 44 national Project Management associations across the world, at DRDO Bhawan here.

Mr. Pillai, DRDO officials said, is the first Indian to receive this certification for his leadership at BrahMos. With over 40 years of experience in project management at ISRO and DRDO, Mr. Pillai holds a Ph.D in Technology Management from Harvard Business School.

Under his leadership as the Chief Executive Officer of BrahMos Aerospace, India and Russia have in a short span of time completed the design and development of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile family. BrahMos has been successfully inducted into the Indian Navy and the Army and now the future versions of BrahMos are being developed.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 24 Mar 2009 03:06

Deleted.

kobe · Post by **kobe** » 24 Mar 2009 04:30

Sanjay,

Please delete the unnecessary kite picture, this is not a humor forum
nor pakistani forum

thanks

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 24 Mar 2009 22:37

Tatas bag order for Akash surface-to-air missile launchers

The Tata Group's defence arm has bagged an order for supplying 16 indigenous Akash surface to air missile (SAM) launchers for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The Strategic Electronics Division received the Rs 182 crore order for the launchers on Monday, even as the group celebrated the launch of its Nano small car.

The order for the missile launchers is bigger than the Rs 172 crore order for Pinaka multi-barrel rockets manufactured by the group for the Indian army in 2007.

The total contract for two regiments of Akash SAMs worth an estimated Rs 1,200 crore was placed by the IAF on public sector undertaking Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) earlier this year and deliveries are to be completed in three years. While public sector undertaking BDL is manufacturing the missiles, BEL is producing the Rajendra phased array radar.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/index.php? ... 8&Itemid=1

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 25 Mar 2009 04:59

Hat-trick of hits

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 25 Mar 2009 06:05

THE DHANUSH MISSILE being launched from the naval ship INS Subhadra in the Bay of Bengal.

In the video, everything was darker.

Anyway, AoA!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Mar 2009 09:15

Hat-trick of hits

The highlights of the mission were proving the technology of the gimballed directional warhead and demonstrating the interceptor’s coasting phase, using a vernier thruster. This coasting phase in the interceptor’s trajectory helps it to decide at what stage it should intercept the “enemy” missile. If the attacker does a manoeuvre, the interceptor’s guidance system will take care of it. To make the seeker effective, the DRDO used a wide-beam RPF in the warhead, which was a mini-radar. “So even if there is a manoeuvre by the enemy missile in the last 500 milliseconds, the RPF will be able to take care of it. The directional warhead will be ignited on the basis of the data given by the RPF,” said Saraswat.

This is interesting because this means PAD could take care of Manouvering RV

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 25 Mar 2009 09:22

from frontline article:

The highlights of the mission were proving the technology of the gimballed directional warhead and demonstrating the interceptor’s coasting phase, using a vernier thruster. This coasting phase in the interceptor’s trajectory helps it to decide at what stage it should intercept the “enemy” missile. If the attacker does a manoeuvre, the interceptor’s guidance system will take care of it. To make the seeker effective, the DRDO used a wide-beam RPF in the warhead, which was a mini-radar. “So even if there is a manoeuvre by the enemy missile in the last 500 milliseconds, the RPF will be able to take care of it. The directional warhead will be ignited on the basis of the data given by the RPF,” said Saraswat.

Another major element employed in the mission was the advanced battle management command, control and communication software, which resided in the MCC. The entire event was tracked by a number of ground stations with complete mobile and static communication systems provided by satellites, fibre optics and line-of-sight communication.

So satellites are already part of our defense shield?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Mar 2009 09:56

Does the TSP missiles have separating warheads? I didnt think so from looking at the pictures of Ghauri etc.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Mar 2009 10:13

ramana wrote:Does the TSP missiles have separating warheads? I didnt think so from looking at the pictures of Ghauri etc.

The all solid fuel Shaheen 2 has it , it seems to have a RV with some degree of manouveribility.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Mar 2009 10:35

You kidding right? its not like even PRC has such a technology!

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 25 Mar 2009 10:39

Nope chinks haven't demonstrated RV's yet but I remember an article where they had put an extra motor on the final stage in the hope of providing extra speed to overcome the american ABM's.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Mar 2009 12:25

ramana wrote:You kidding right? its not like even PRC has such a technology!

Well Wiki has this to say on Shaheen II RV

Re-entry vehicle carried by the Shaheen-II missile have a mass of 1050kg. This re-entry vehicle mass of 1050kg carry Nuclear Warhead weight of the re-entry vehicles itself and a terminal guidance (as confirmed by Dr. Samar Mubarakmand[2])which is most probably radar correlation terminal seeker to achieve extremely accurate CEP in range of 30-50m similar to US PERSHING II[3].This re-entry vehicle unlike that of Shaheen-I does not have four moving delta control fins at the rear and small solid/liquid-propellant side thrust motors motors, which can be used to orientate the re-entry vehicle after boost burn out or before reentry to improve the accuracy by providing stabilization during the terminal phase and this can also be used to fly evasive maneuvers, making it immensely problematic to intercept by any existing anti-ballistic missile defence systems. As Shaheen-II may change its trajectory several times during re-entry and even during the terminal phase, effectively preventing pre-calculated intercept points of radar systems - which is a method nearly all ABM systems using these days. This re-entry vehicle also has GPS updates to further improve its CEP. [4][5]

Also check this what to expect in near future with a push from Chini Bhai
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3823118

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 25 Mar 2009 12:29

Austin wrote:
ramana wrote:You kidding right? its not like even PRC has such a technology!
Well Wiki has this to say on Shaheen II RV

Re-entry vehicle carried by the Shaheen-II missile have a mass of 1050kg. This re-entry vehicle mass of 1050kg carry Nuclear Warhead weight of the re-entry vehicles itself and a terminal guidance (as confirmed by Dr. Samar Mubarakmand[2])which is most probably radar correlation terminal seeker to achieve extremely accurate CEP in range of 30-50m similar to US PERSHING II[3].This re-entry vehicle unlike that of Shaheen-I does not have four moving delta control fins at the rear and small solid/liquid-propellant side thrust motors motors, which can be used to orientate the re-entry vehicle after boost burn out or before reentry to improve the accuracy by providing stabilization during the terminal phase and this can also be used to fly evasive maneuvers, making it immensely problematic to intercept by any existing anti-ballistic missile defence systems. As Shaheen-II may change its trajectory several times during re-entry and even during the terminal phase, effectively preventing pre-calculated intercept points of radar systems - which is a method nearly all ABM systems using these days. This re-entry vehicle also has GPS updates to further improve its CEP. [4][5]

But why does it need a GPS or even evasive maneuvers -- I simply dont understand..

Arent the Shaheens & Ghauri's totally invisible to all kinds of detection !!!!
They can just fly through and the Kafir radars wouldn't even notice..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Mar 2009 12:30

vavinash wrote:Nope chinks haven't demonstrated RV's yet but I remember an article where they had put an extra motor on the final stage in the hope of providing extra speed to overcome the american ABM's.

What do you mean chinks havent demonstrated a Reentry Vehical ? They have tested MIRV and have operationally deployed it on DF-31A

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 25 Mar 2009 12:54

“So even if there is a manoeuvre by the enemy missile in the last 500 milliseconds

500 milliseconds means .5 seconds, that doesn't seem much though.
That means that if the RV does some evasive maneuvers much earlier, then the interceptor missile is most likely to miss it.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 25 Mar 2009 19:43

The chinks have a seperating warhead for their M-11 and their M-9 missiles. The seperating warhead is supposed to be a small fraction of the missile body which follows the warhead itself to the target. this they hope will fool the radar and the missile by providing a more jucier target, and sparing the warhead itself. The warhead size is supposed to be some 20% of the missile body itself.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 25 Mar 2009 19:48

By the time the target makes a maneuver at 0.5 seconds before a hit to kill, the target itself will be history.
How much separation can the target achieve even considering the high mach numbers there are.

For the target to evade the incoming interceptor will require the target itself to be intelligent and aware of the incoming interceptor. Don't think the reentry vehicles are yet equipped with such sensors after all the high temperature plasma they've gone through during reentry.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 25 Mar 2009 20:28

Avinandan wrote:
“So even if there is a manoeuvre by the enemy missile in the last 500 milliseconds
500 milliseconds means .5 seconds, that doesn't seem much though.
That means that if the RV does some evasive maneuvers much earlier, then the interceptor missile is most likely to miss it.

You may be reading it wrong IMO. The evasive manoeuvre initiated when missiles are pretty close are the hardest to intercept. A manoeuvre done a second or 10 second from hit would be much easier to handle for missile than the one initiated 0.5 sec before a expected hit.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Mar 2009 04:58

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10725 "The PLA has replaced older liquid-fueled nuclear-capable CSS-3 IRBMs with more advanced solid-fueled CSS-5 MRBMs in Western China, and may possibly be developing contingency plans to move airborne troops into the region," the report said.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 29 Mar 2009 11:48

Rupesh wrote:Tatas bag order for Akash surface-to-air missile launchers

The Tata Group's defence arm has bagged an order for supplying 16 indigenous Akash surface to air missile (SAM) launchers for the Indian Air Force (IAF). The Strategic Electronics Division received the Rs 182 crore order for the launchers on Monday, even as the group celebrated the launch of its Nano small car.

Assuming TATAs got half of the order, would it mean that around 32 launchers have been ordered?