Indian Army Discussion

[sum]

Link

LeT warns of more strikes after Kupwara encounter

Srinagar: With the combing operation in the forests of Kupwara is still going on, Army claims that all the slain militants were foreigners owing allegiance to Lashkar e Toiba. So far, seventeen militants and eight soldiers have been killed in the operation.

Brigade General Staff 15 Corps, Brigadier Gurmeet Singh said the operation is going on in the thick forests of Kupwara in the difficult mountainous terrain. “The militants were primarily an infiltration group attempting to infiltrate and a reception party,” he said. “The slain militants were foreigners owing their allegiance to Lashkar e Toiba.”

Singh said that the majority of the militants have been killed. “Remnants if any, will also be eliminated.”

Brigadier Singh termed it as a first major infiltration attempt and said that more militants from across the Line of Control are waiting to sneak into the Valley. “As per intelligence reports 300 to 400 militants are awaiting on other side of the Line of Control to sneak into the Valley. We are prepared to tackle any infiltration attempt,” he said.

If we know 400 pigs waiting across the border(most probably in the TSPA border posts), what prevents us from taking pre-emptive action?

Should we keep losing 10-15 soldiers whenever every batch of pigs in the 300-400 waiting in PoK tries to come over?

[Anshul]

Link

LeT warns of more strikes after Kupwara encounter

Srinagar: With the combing operation in the forests of Kupwara is still going on, Army claims that all the slain militants were foreigners owing allegiance to Lashkar e Toiba. So far, seventeen militants and eight soldiers have been killed in the operation.

Brigade General Staff 15 Corps, Brigadier Gurmeet Singh said the operation is going on in the thick forests of Kupwara in the difficult mountainous terrain. “The militants were primarily an infiltration group attempting to infiltrate and a reception party,” he said. “The slain militants were foreigners owing their allegiance to Lashkar e Toiba.”

Singh said that the majority of the militants have been killed. “Remnants if any, will also be eliminated.”

Brigadier Singh termed it as a first major infiltration attempt and said that more militants from across the Line of Control are waiting to sneak into the Valley. “As per intelligence reports 300 to 400 militants are awaiting on other side of the Line of Control to sneak into the Valley. We are prepared to tackle any infiltration attempt,” he said.

If we know 400 pigs waiting across the border(most probably in the TSPA border posts), what prevents us from taking pre-emptive action?

Should we keep losing 10-15 soldiers whenever every batch of pigs in the 300-400 waiting in PoK tries to come over?

Probably program the next Bramhos test and make it land in Meena Valley.This will ensure that the Army orders more of them.

Don't we use Napalm(I know we don't)....assuming that the pigs were surrounded...we could have called in Air Support.I don't see a reason for not doing that.Is the reluctance to call in air support attributed to giving away all the credit to the IAF?This izzat crap and inter service rivalry is getting people killed.

[Mandeep]

The Brigadier is absolutely right. Gallantry awards should not be cheapened in this way. I know of an officer from the Punjab Police (coincidentally he served in the BSF too) who has 4 Bars to his PPMG ! The rot has also set in to the Armed Forces with the floodgates being opened for politicisation of the awards with the case of Brig Mehta, the late DA in Kabul. One expects the senior leadership of the Defence Services to put a halt to any further degeneration with the issue of a firmly worded guideline for the award of gallantry medals.

[ramana]

Mandeep, Re the Kabul awards I think there is more to it than meets the eye. We might find out one of these days. So I reserve my judgement.

[Surya]

we have already discussed the awards before - and there have been voices for and against it.

I thought we moved on

[Brando]

Probably program the next Bramhos test and make it land in Meena Valley.This will ensure that the Army orders more of them.

Don't we use Napalm(I know we don't)....assuming that the pigs were surrounded...we could have called in Air Support.I don't see a reason for not doing that.Is the reluctance to call in air support attributed to giving away all the credit to the IAF?This izzat crap and inter service rivalry is getting people killed.

I read in a newspaper article which quoted the Indian Army officer saying that since the terrain was very rugged they didnt use heavy weapons. This is just a tired refrain that they keep spewing over and over again. If the Coalition forces in Afghanistan have no problems dropping a 2000lb JDAM on the heads of the Taliban scurrying on a cliff, the IAF should have no trouble as well. I doubt commanders in the Indian Army can just call in an Air strike like is the norm in the West. Also, as you say, Napalm would have been a much better option too as it would have saved 8 good men their lives. The reluctance of the Indian Army to use heavy weapons or their inability to use heavy weapons effectively only cost India more. Imagine how much training and money was spent to recruit, train, equip and maintain those special forces soldiers who died ? Especially now when the Indian army is facing a shortage of good officers, a dead SF Major is a very significant loss.

[Surya]

RayC has explained why we do not go for that the "Hammer" solution

after all what has the Coalition Forces achieved apart from slight low casualties??? Everybody hates them and they are pretty much losing the war.


Of course even if we wanted to - we are still far away for being equipped to that level.

[Mandeep]

Ramana, there may well be more to it than meets the eye. But in no case are gallantry awards given for that kind of work.

[Brando]

after all what has the Coalition Forces achieved apart from slight low casualties??? Everybody hates them and they are pretty much losing the war.

Er....Compared to the casualties by Coalition forces from 2001 to 2009 and compare the casualties of the Indian Army from 2001 to 2009 ? 1,074 Coalition troops killed including the initial invasion and subsequent lawless period. How many Indian soldiers have died in the same period ? Also compared to Afghanistan Kashmir is a walk in the park.

As for everybody hating the Coalition, maybe you would care to ask the locals if life under the Taliban or life under the new government supported by coalition troops is better before making statements that are not grounded in any facts.

[RayC]

after all what has the Coalition Forces achieved apart from slight low casualties??? Everybody hates them and they are pretty much losing the war.

Er....Compared to the casualties by Coalition forces from 2001 to 2009 and compare the casualties of the Indian Army from 2001 to 2009 ? 1,074 Coalition troops killed including the initial invasion and subsequent lawless period. How many Indian soldiers have died in the same period ? Also compared to Afghanistan Kashmir is a walk in the park.

As for everybody hating the Coalition, maybe you would care to ask the locals if life under the Taliban or life under the new government supported by coalition troops is better before making statements that are not grounded in any facts.

There are good reasons why there is a difference in the casualties, as also why Kashmir is a 'cake walk' compared to Afghanistan. Some of them are as below: -

1. The War on Terror is taken as a War on Islam. Therefore, the Muslims are more belligerent in posture than in Kashmir, where some, with the abetment of foreign nations, feel that they should separate. Afghanistan is taken as a religious war, while the separatists, assisted by the unemployed from Afghanistan war against the Soviets, consider it a political war! Religion, especially Islam, is a powerful elixir!

2. India has faced insurgency for decades and now are past masters at CI. That is why the US troops regularly train at the Indian CIJW School. That the Indian experience and mode of handling the issue is the best, is also borne out my the fact that General Sir Michael Rose, did a whirlwind tour of Indian CI areas and interacted with all concerned to bone up on CI, before he took charge in the Balkans. I am aware of it since he visited us and I was the Offg GOC. Coalition Forces are just in the process of 'feeling the heat'! I am sure they will do better as time goes on.

3. The Indian approach to CI is different. We are very concerned about collateral damage. Our vast experience indicates that collateral damage is a sureshot way to win the battle but lose the war! That is why, India does not use Artillery or air power. That this has paid off is signatured by the fact that the Kashmiris came out in hordes to vote in the State Election, ignoring the threats of the terrorists and the boycott call of the separatists. In fact, one of the separatist leader has openly stated that he will participate in the General Election and fight from 'within'. His sister fought in the State election.

4. While the Coalition forces and their govt look to bigger projects for the country where they are deployed, India works at alleviating the grassroot problems of the people. This is more apparent to the people since it affects their daily life. It works. The Indian Army's Op Sadbhavana is a roaring success and the locals come to ask for assistance for some of their local problems. It is the people who turn terrorists and not the govt. Therefore, the people have to understand that what the Army is doing is not against them, but against the terrorists and that the Army is there to improve their lot!

5. The troop level in Kashmir and in Afghanistan is totally different and so is the tactics. In Kashmir, we have deployed a huge amount of troops to 'seal' the Line of Control. This makes infiltration difficult and under tolerable control. The second tier of the Army combats the terrorists within the immediate area of those who have successfully infiltrated. The Para military guard the cities and towns. There is a three tier plan. The Coalition forces do not 'seal' the border and are combating the terrorists in the second tier and towns. That cannot be helped since the troops levels do not permit what is the Indian strategy to combat terrorists.

Lastly, the Indian Army believes in Patton's exhortation - No B has won a war by dying for his country. He has won the war by making the other poor dumb B die for his country. That is why the casualty figures belie the number of encounters that the IA has had with the terrorists.

[Raja Bose]

Also compared to Afghanistan Kashmir is a walk in the park.

Brando,

Care to qualify that statement?

[svinayak]

This is just a tired refrain that they keep spewing over and over again. If the Coalition forces in Afghanistan have no problems dropping a 2000lb JDAM on the heads of the Taliban scurrying on a cliff, the IAF should have no trouble as well.

For Coalition forces Afghanistan is a foreign place and a war zone. They created the Taliban and screwed up the country. They dont care for the people in the ground. It is not their people and nor their society.
They dont have cultural affinity to the civilians.

For Indians Kashmir is our land and land of the forefathers and religion. This is not a war zone declared on some remote place.

[Surya]

Brando

1. Ask the Coalition to put troops to control every mile of Afghan territory and see how the casualty rates climb. Presently most are sitting inside compounds - venturing out in heavily armed convoys not to far from air cover. They go back - Talib slips back

2. 1000 odd troops dead for the fantastically equipped, no expense spared - force is actually pretty bad. This when apart from the US.Brits, Canadians, some french and some aussies the rest are refusing to move out of the north.

Please read all the recent reports where everybody is saying that the Talib are gaining ground and locals are getting fed up of the Coalitions inability to provide security. If you cannot provide security - its meaningless - the poor sods might as well support the Talib. And you cannot provide security with the sort of coverage they have now.

As for Kashmir being a walk in the park - wonder why the US army guys visited MHOW and other places and took boatload of notes from CI veterans of J&K.

While we can always learn somethings from the US - they also have learnt a lot from us regarding CI ops.

[pgbhat]

Brando

1. Ask the Coalition to put troops to control every mile of Afghan territory and see how the casualty rates climb. Presently most are sitting inside compounds - venturing out in heavily armed convoys not to far from air cover. They go back - Talib slips back.

Good point Surya ..... IIRC the RoE of the Dutch contingent is a joke. They need parliamentary approval to take a pi$$ outside the base.

[sunilUpa]

Indian Army fears China attack by 2017

Posting in full..

The Indian military fears a ‘Chinese aggression’ in less than a decade. A secret exercise, called ‘Divine Matrix’, by the army’s military operations directorate has visualised a war scenario with the nuclear-armed neighbour before 2017.

“A misadventure by China is very much within the realm of possibility with Beijing trying to position itself as the only power in the region. There will be no nuclear warfare but a short, swift war that could have menacing consequences for India,” said an army officer, who was part of the three-day war games that ended on Wednesday.

In the military’s assessment, based on a six-month study of various scenarios before the war games, China would rely on information warfare (IW) to bring India down on its knees before launching an offensive.

The war games saw generals raising concerns about the IW battalions of the People’s Liberation Army carrying out hacker attacks for military espionage, intelligence collection, paralysing communication systems, compromising airport security, inflicting damage on the banking system and disabling power grids. “We need to spend more on developing information warfare capability,” he said.

The war games dispelled the notion that China would take at least one season (one year) for a substantial military build-up across India’s northeastern frontiers. “The Tibetan infrastructure has been improved considerably. The PLA can now launch an assault very quickly, without any warning, the officer said.

The military believes that China would have swamped Tibet with sweeping demographic changes in the medium term. For the purposes of Divine Matrix, China would call Dalai Lama for rapprochement and neutralise him. The top brass also brainstormed over India’s options in case Pakistan joined the war to. Another apprehension was that Myanmar and Bangladesh would align with China in the future geostrategic environment.

Hmmm..interesting. We haven't considered IW in our scenarios.

[sunilUpa]

Soldier in grave, on 20th birthday

Posting in full.

Dhab (Ganderbal), March 25: Shabir Ahmad Malik was laid to rest on a day he would have turned 20 in a Tricolour-wrapped coffin borne by fellow soldiers, his village turning out in strength to salute its son.

“Shabir would have been 20 today but, look, he is no more,” wept elder brother Ghulam Mohammad Malik.

“He was born to die this way. He studied in Sainik School Manasbal up to Class XII and then joined the army, where he was trained as a commando. We are pained at his death but he has also made us proud.”

The words could have been K. Unnikrishnan’s — the proud father of Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan, the commando felled by terrorists from across the border during the Mumbai attack in November last year.

Shabir, like Sandeep who was 11 years older, died fighting militants. The commando from 1-Para regiment was killed on Monday during the encounter in the Kupwara forests that lasted five days.

By the time the shootout that kept hundreds of security forces on their toes ended yesterday, eight soldiers had died. Seventeen militants were also gunned down. The operation was declared over by the army yesterday but “the combing and search operation” is still on.

At Shabir’s home in Ganderbal, where his family would have celebrated his 20th birthday, villagers were gathered in mourning. Women beat their chests and showered confetti and flower petals on his coffin, and men accompanied it to the graveyard chanting slogans. All roads in Ganderbal appeared to lead to the village.

On the way to the graveyard, the coffin was placed in the compound of a one-storey house for people to catch a last glimpse of the soldier who had united the Indian Army and the Kashmiri villagers in grief.

“This is only the second time I have seen so many people joining the funeral of an Indian soldier and the reason could be primarily that he was a local boy,” a police officer said.

“The last time so many people had turned up was during the funeral of Muzaffar Ahmad, a Shangus resident who was also a soldier and died fighting militants.”

But unlike then, pro-India slogans rent the air yesterday as the army gave Shabir a gun salute.

“It could be because the village is Shia-dominated,” the officer said.

Kashmir villages usually reserve a hero’s send-off for militants killed by security forces, not Indian soldiers.

Defence spokesperson Lt Col J.S. Brar said: “The militant group most likely consisted of an infiltrating column as well as the terrorists who had gone to receive them. The operation was based on sound intelligence inputs as well as human intelligence provided by own sources.”

A large cache of arms and ammunition was recovered. Seventeen assault rifles, four under barrel grenade launchers (UBGL), 13 AK magazines, 207 AK ammunition, 19 UBGL grenades, two grenades, two GPS sets, one Thuraya radio set, one Kenwood radio set, three map sheets, three matrix sheets, two haversacks and Rs 9,200 in Indian currency were recovered in the operations.

[JaiS]

Indian army pilot creates record in Para motor flying

[sum]

From the article of the martyred Para soldier:

But unlike then, pro-India slogans rent the air yesterday as the army gave Shabir a gun salute.

“It could be because the village is Shia-dominated,” the officer said.

So, a IA officer confirming my theory posted above?

Also,

The Indian military fears a ‘Chinese aggression’ in less than a decade. A secret exercise, called ‘Divine Matrix’, by the army’s military operations directorate has visualised a war scenario with the nuclear-armed neighbour before 2017.

“A misadventure by China is very much within the realm of possibility with Beijing trying to position itself as the only power in the region. There will be no nuclear warfare but a short, swift war that could have menacing consequences for India,” said an army officer, who was part of the three-day war games that ended on Wednesday.

This must be the reason the Ia suddenly woke up and is scrambling to get Mountain strike corps, ultra light howitzers etc!!!

[rohitvats]

This must be the reason the Ia suddenly woke up and is scrambling to get Mountain strike corps, ultra light howitzers etc!!!

Sum: I had posted earlier also, that it is the GOI which has woken up to the threat of the Chinese incursions and short and swift war. The IA had proposed the Mountain Strike Corps in late 80's itself. IIRC, there was committe that was setup to look exactly into such a scenario and suggested the formationof Moutain Strike Corps. The GOI as usual sat on the reccomendations. If you remeber, there were a series of articles in media on the Chinese incursions last year and the pitch had reached quite high a decibel levels. THe news of the Mountain Strike Corps emerged post this.

[sum]

Thanks for the info, rohit-ji...

Could it be possible that IA is indulging in US forces style scare campaign( overplaying the threat) to get their purchases through given that GoI acts only when the $hit is about to hit the fan?

I honestly don't mind that if the job gets done!!!

[Nihat]

I'm really glad that it's not just Vivek who is thinking up all angles of Tactical and Strategic Scenarios against the Chinese , their level of Military expansion is not for nothing and while we should not look to overtake then , at least we must have scenarios planned out.

[Rishi]

X-post

LoC breach: Alerted, Army laid a trap for Lashkar men before 5-day firefight began

ed online: Mar 26, 2009 at 0214 hrs
MUZAMIL JALEEL & MIR EHSAN

SRINAGAR : At the end of the five-day Kupwara encounter that killed eight Army personnel and 17 Lashkar operatives, all evidence points to “extremely sophisticated planning and logistics” behind the biggest infiltration attempt across the Line of Control this year, security officers involved in the operation said.

Army chief General Deepak Kapoor said the high casualties of Indian Special Forces — all eight from the crack 1 Para — indicated a “high level of military training.” As did the nature of the infiltration attempt — through treacherous terrain and the recovery of highly detailed maps of the forests, along with GPS devices, radios, satellite phones, snowboots and ice axes.

At 10,273 feet, a narrow, winding road over the Sadhna Pass — its surface covered by frozen ice — is the only entrance into the stunning valleys of Karnah in the Kashmir Valley. To its left, in the vast isolated swathe, walled by the snow-capped peaks of the Shamsabari range, is the heavily guarded Line of Control. It was here on March 19, that 25 militants sneaked in — watched by both the Army and the Lashkar-e-Toiba.

Sources have confirmed to The Indian Express that militants who crossed over were well on their way to hideouts in Rajwar where Lashkar’s commander Abu Saad was waiting. Saad, it’s learnt, had sent three of his experienced militants to “receive” this new group. But this time, the Army knew and it had Lashkar’s key OGWs (Over Ground Workers) under watch.

Sources said intelligence from across the LoC had alerted security agencies a week in advance. Moreover, early this month, two smaller groups of militants had already crossed over into the Rajwar area and a third group of 10 had sneaked into the valley through Gulmarg. “So we were expecting them. We knew they were coming but our information was about a group of 10 militants,” a source told The Indian Express.

Army officials say the infiltration was launched most probably from somewhere in the Lepa valley. After they crossed over, the militants trekked the Shamsabari’s high ridges that divides the Keran sector from the Kashmir bowl.

In parallel, the Army began moving to lay an ambush. The plan was to avoid engaging the militants near the LoC and thus prevent them from retreating. “They were allowed to sneak in under constant watch,” a source said. The infiltrators were first spotted at Ragni post where one militant was killed. The first major contact with the militants took place at around 3 am on March 20 at Drangyari. “Three were killed there,” said Army spokesman Col J S Brar, “one of them escaped and was killed at Chamb”.

By then, the group had scattered under night’s cover and the Army had expanded its operation across the Shamsabari range, pushing reinforcements into the dense Hafruda forests — one of the thickest stretched across Kupwara and Handwara districts. The Army’s Trehgam Brigade, two battalions of the Rashtriya Rifles and para commandos were deployed. Sources said the Lashkar “reception party” had already joined the infiltrators but somehow the guide possibly lost his way.

The next afternoon, on March 21, Major Mohit Sharma along with a party of para commandos, decided to go deep inside the Hafruda forests. A group of militants, however, had been hiding over the ridge — which gave them an immediate advantage. Major Sharma and three of his men were killed in the firefight.

By Monday, the Army had sent out dozens of parties inside Hafruda, expanding the operation to almost an area of 20 sq km. Fierce gunbattles raged across the area. Close-quarter encounters took place at two places — one inside the Hafruda forests and another in Drangyari. Five militants were killed while four Army men, Havaldar Rakesh Kumar, Nayak Sanjay Anna and Para troopers Manoj Kumar and Shabir Ahmad, were killed. All were officers and men from the Para unit — equipped with AK 47 and Israeli Tavor rifles, new generation night-sights and tracking equipment.

On Tuesday, the troops were again in control and the cordon had been tightened around the militants holed up in Hafruda. Seven militants were killed that day.

Army officials said they found this group of infiltrators “exceptionally trained” and “well-kitted” wearing multilayered warm clothing, jackets, snowshoes and even armed with ice axes. The militants also had modern communication gadgets and were using GPS, compasses, one Thuraya set and Army maps. “They had 10 radio sets as well. We also recovered 23 AK rifles,” said Col Brar. “They had boots and axes, the kind we use in Siachen. The boots were made in Iran.”

(Pakfauj operating at LeT for some major fireworks in J&K?)

The militants, who communicated in codes, also had elaborate maps of Kupwara and Handwara especially of the dense forest ranges. The seriousness of the plan was evident in the specially tailored T-shirts for this group. The T-shirts had “Jihad is my life, Shahadat (martyrdom) is my real life” printed on them. There were T-shirts which “Commando” inscribed as well.

The Army estimates that the level of infiltration will go up in coming months as the snow starts melting in the passes. “Over 300 militants are waiting to infiltrate from 40-50 terror camps across the LoC,” the Army Chief said. Army officers said that with less than 400 active militants estimated in the valley, handlers across the border are getting desperate to send in more foot soldiers.

(with Manu Pubby, New Delhi)

[Raj Malhotra]

Re RayC

You missed some of the biggest achievements of Indian army (Indian strategy) In J&K:-


Compare J&K with Afghanistan for level of tourism, level of civil infrastructure, Normal civil activites, political activities, commerce and trade, roads, railways, bridges, bus & truck network, Hindu religious festivities, absense of massive opium farms, hydro electric plants etc.

[AdityaM]

X-post
LoC breach: Alerted, Army laid a trap for Lashkar men before 5-day firefight began

Now who laid the trap & for whom?

From the same newssite is another report:
Lashkar says we did it, threatens more attacks in Valley

Ghaznavi said. “The Army had launched a combing operation in Chowkibal forest of Kupwara. But the Lashkar had already received information about their movement and laid an ambush,”

[sum]

Come on, you believe the LeT wacko?

He also claims that 50 soldiers were injured/killed and only 10 pigs were hallaled. He is following the glorious Paki tradition of turning every jhapad into a victory by spinning it around...

He may be right in a way wherein the incoming "guests" found a unexpected Desi welcome party waiting for them in India, so they promptly disbanded ,ran helter skelter and ambushed the SF guys pursuing them...

[RayC]

Re RayC

You missed some of the biggest achievements of Indian army (Indian strategy) In J&K:-


Compare J&K with Afghanistan for level of tourism, level of civil infrastructure, Normal civil activites, political activities, commerce and trade, roads, railways, bridges, bus & truck network, Hindu religious festivities, absense of massive opium farms, hydro electric plants etc.

Thanks.

[Raja Bose]

He may be right in a way wherein the incoming "guests" found a unexpected Desi welcome party waiting for them in India, so they promptly disbanded ,ran helter skelter and ambushed the SF guys pursuing them...

I don't think it was some lucky chance on part of the militants....they ambushed 1 Para Cdo pretty skillfully given the high number of casualties. Just think about it, if it was some common Abdul Jihadi who is running helter skelter, he would hardly be setting up ambushes such as these ones. This sort of incident indicates a very very high level of training and the equipment list is nothing short of astonishing! It smells more and more of Paki Army personnel operating under Laskhar cover. MMS is ofcourse going to have a good nights sleep.

[RayC]

China attacking India in a conventional mode is an interesting proposition.

The Qinghai–Xizang Railway and the improve road links, one skirting along Arunachal, the Chengdu Lhasa Highway, and the two highways to Xingjian indeed allows quicker mobilisation by the Chinese than before.

While obviously the DGMO knows what they predict, yet it is interesting as to how the Chinese would launch an ‘assault’. The wording is ominous since assault does not qualify to be a campaign. If so, what would be the aim of the Chinese?

One has to see the campaigning window.

During the winter, the Passes are blocked and so ingress into Indian Territory is not militarily feasible. The winter finishes and the Passes open by May and by June are operational. However, by September, the monsoon sets in and landslides and the road ‘washing away’ is commonplace! Therefore, sustenance of operation and maintaining the momentum which is essential is very ‘iffy’. Then, the Passes close by November!

Therefore, what would be the window for the campaign? And what would be the aim?

Thereafter, one has to visualise the opposition that the Chinese would face.

Given the conventional 3:1 ratio for victory, one can well visualise the quantum of troops the Chinese would have to employ and in addition, it has to stock adequate war materiel to sustain the operations. The IAF is quite modern and are capable of hitting hard. Therefore, the Chinese would have to have adequate AD resources both in the gun and aircraft categories.

Further, it maybe noted that in HAA, it is 12: 1 ratio that is required for victory. If that be the case, then what would be the number of Divisions, the Chinese would have to induct.

One wonders if the Chinese have so much of troops, equipment, aircraft already in Tibet and have stocked up!

If not and it has to be brought up from the Chinese mainland, then there sure would be battle indicators and the Indian Army would be geared to take them on.

Should Pakistan also enter the fray, even then, one could take them on, more so, with the new concept of Cold Start into Pakistan and stoic defence on the Chinese side.

Obviously, this appreciation is without the realtime input that the DGMO may have.

One may add that should the Chinese attack India, it would be an ideal opportunity for the Tibetans and Uighurs to create trouble and thwart the Chinese and at the same time declare notional independence. The Chinese being very sensitive to 'face' might think twice!

[vivek_ahuja]

A nice gist of the situation, RayC sir.

One may add that should the Chinese attack India, it would be an ideal opportunity for the Tibetans and Uighurs to create trouble and thwart the Chinese and at the same time declare notional independence.

Not to mention bogging down at least some Chinese units and preventing their usage at the front in case of an Tibetan armed rebellion.

Hmm. I think one of these days I should ask you to comment in the scenarios thread...

-Vivek

[RayC]

While one cannot discount that the Lashkar could have got information of the ambush, yet it is interesting that they walked into the ambush. They should have taken another route, which was feasible since Gujjars (who tend their animals on the heights are are conversant with the terrain) are the 'guides'. Of course, without knowing the exact details, one would not know what happened.

It is rather odd that knowingly they walked into an ambush.

It could also be that they, knowing of the ambush. 'attacked' the ambush. But the large number of casualties on their side, does raise questions if it were so since it should have not been so,

The large number of casualties on the side of the terrorists indicate that the terrorists were ambushed, and they did what is known as counter ambush i.e. charge an ambush and then move through it, if not harmed and go and meet at a predesignated RV. Obviously, when charging an ambush, there will be large number of casualties and that is what happened to the terrorists. Since they were infiltrating a very large number of people, they had the numbers and hence could inflict some casualties on the SF.

Just a surmise, the actual facts not being known!

[Ajay K]

Bottom line is that LoC is porous. IA, BSF needs to device a strategy to make them more secure other wise it will like any Jehadi can just walk past LoC and join others already entrenched in the valley. Of the 400+ active rats already in the valley how many are being engaged and eliminated. Is there a plan in place to act for the RR or SFs?
Ray Sahib, during non-active (infiltration lulls) spells do the RR & SF engage them based on intelligence?

[RayC]

The LC is porous and it will continue to be so. It is not possible to place a man every yard of the 749 kms (I think that is what it is) LC.

Fencing and sensors assist.

It must be understood that there are gullies and irregularities in the terrain i.e. ups and down etc and they add up to the distance. Forests obscure vision.

That is the operational scenario.

Yes there is a plan. It is three tier. One on the LC, second in the hinterland and third in the towns and cities!

[k prasad]

Bottom line is that LoC is porous. IA, BSF needs to device a strategy to make them more secure other wise it will like any Jehadi can just walk past LoC and join others already entrenched in the valley. Of the 400+ active rats already in the valley how many are being engaged and eliminated. Is there a plan in place to act for the RR or SFs?
Ray Sahib, during non-active (infiltration lulls) spells do the RR & SF engage them based on intelligence?

What you're forgetting is for the terrain, we've created a pretty ironclad border, complete with detecting radars, HHTIs, extensive manning, constant patrolling, fencing, mining, etc etc... something that i guess no other border has, except maybe the Noko-Soko line, or the Israel-Gaza border, and both of these are on relatively easier terrain and climate.

What you're also forgetting is that with all of these, the level of infilitration has plummeted - if today, pigs are havign to infiltrate into J&K and India via Bangladesh, that should tell us something.

Also, you forgot that these guys were constantly under surveillance, which means that we actually let them in with a purpose, as we have with pigs before them. There is a reason why Srinagar and other interior cities face almost no terrorist violence now, and why the terrorists are killed in small villages or forests less than a day away from the LoC - it is because we are letting them in (to prevent them from escaping back) and killing them at our choosing.

So before you talk about porous borders, think a bit about why exactly they are porous - its because we have deliberately and selectively made it so.

Ray sir, please correct me if I am wrong.

[Mandeep]

In terrain like what we have in Kashmir the LOC is bound to be porous. I also feel that the Indian security forces tend to lure in terrorists from POK through various stratagems in order to cause attrition, capture terrorists for the purpose of interrogation, capture weapons and equipment to increase the costs for the Paki sponsors etc.

[sum]

Just to add to above points:
We allow them to walk deep into our areas to prevent the terrorists from scooting back if challenged very near to the border and also to get the pigs as far as possible from the protective fire of the Paki border guards to ensure unhindered operations...

[Nitesh]

This should be the reason for attack:

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.ns ... enDocument

India's emerging power makes Chinese Army worried: Pentagon



Lalit K Jha
Washington, Mar 26 (PTI) India's emergence as an economic, political and military power has left Chinese army worried, even as the two countries in the recent years have increased their economic and military cooperation, a report released by Pentagon said.

"The PLA (People's Liberation Army) remains concerned with persistent disputes along China's shared border with India and the strategic ramifications of India's rising economic, political, and military power," the Pentagon said in its Congressional mandated annual report on China's army.

The 78-page report devotes a small sub-section on India-China relations, along with those on Russia and Central Asian republics. "China has deepened its ties with India through increased trade, high-level dialogues, and an improved military-to-military relationship," the report said.

The two countries have agreed to boost their bilateral trade from USD 11.4 billion in 2007 to USD 40 billion in 2010. India and China have also held several rounds of dialogue over disputed territorial claims.

Sino-Indian defence ties were institutionalised in 2007 with the establishment of an Annual Defence Dialogue and by conducting three bilateral defence exercises since 2007, but the PLA remains worried about the rise of India as a regional and global power and its increasing military might, the report said. PTI

[Anshul]

This should be the reason for attack:

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.ns ... enDocument

India's emerging power makes Chinese Army worried: Pentagon



Lalit K Jha
Washington, Mar 26 (PTI) India's emergence as an economic, political and military power has left Chinese army worried, even as the two countries in the recent years have increased their economic and military cooperation, a report released by Pentagon said.

"The PLA (People's Liberation Army) remains concerned with persistent disputes along China's shared border with India and the strategic ramifications of India's rising economic, political, and military power," the Pentagon said in its Congressional mandated annual report on China's army.

The 78-page report devotes a small sub-section on India-China relations, along with those on Russia and Central Asian republics. "China has deepened its ties with India through increased trade, high-level dialogues, and an improved military-to-military relationship," the report said.

The two countries have agreed to boost their bilateral trade from USD 11.4 billion in 2007 to USD 40 billion in 2010. India and China have also held several rounds of dialogue over disputed territorial claims.

Sino-Indian defence ties were institutionalised in 2007 with the establishment of an Annual Defence Dialogue and by conducting three bilateral defence exercises since 2007, but the PLA remains worried about the rise of India as a regional and global power and its increasing military might, the report said. PTI

Lalit K Jha needs to grow up...or quit defence reporting.This is another example of creative journalism.IA does not need a pentagon report to figure that out eh..!

[RayC]

Bottom line is that LoC is porous. IA, BSF needs to device a strategy to make them more secure other wise it will like any Jehadi can just walk past LoC and join others already entrenched in the valley. Of the 400+ active rats already in the valley how many are being engaged and eliminated. Is there a plan in place to act for the RR or SFs?
Ray Sahib, during non-active (infiltration lulls) spells do the RR & SF engage them based on intelligence?

What you're forgetting is for the terrain, we've created a pretty ironclad border, complete with detecting radars, HHTIs, extensive manning, constant patrolling, fencing, mining, etc etc... something that i guess no other border has, except maybe the Noko-Soko line, or the Israel-Gaza border, and both of these are on relatively easier terrain and climate.

What you're also forgetting is that with all of these, the level of infilitration has plummeted - if today, pigs are havign to infiltrate into J&K and India via Bangladesh, that should tell us something.

Also, you forgot that these guys were constantly under surveillance, which means that we actually let them in with a purpose, as we have with pigs before them. There is a reason why Srinagar and other interior cities face almost no terrorist violence now, and why the terrorists are killed in small villages or forests less than a day away from the LoC - it is because we are letting them in (to prevent them from escaping back) and killing them at our choosing.

So before you talk about porous borders, think a bit about why exactly they are porous - its because we have deliberately and selectively made it so.

Ray sir, please correct me if I am wrong.

I am not forgetting anything (at least I hope so!)

I have patrolled not only the LC, but also such horrible spines like Raja Ram di Lari (I am mentioning this since it was the most horrid feeling I got and I can't forget it) where we sat on our bottoms to move, lest we fell off. And in that time there was deep snow and so you did not know where the spine (ridge was) and the whole of the Pir Panjal (Long Range Patrolling)!

There is nothing like an ironclad border! Cameras, sensors, fencing (mines have been there from 1947 and it run all along without a break and in many layers!) all help, but there is nothing like ironclad. If it were the terrorists would not be able to infiltrate and in such numbers as reported!

One has to see and walk the terrain in J&K to realise it.

The infiltration has gone down because of many reasons. One is that Afghanistan is hot again, two, there is a better understanding between India and Pakistan govt (CBMs), three, because of the fencing and the other force multipliers. Patrolling and ambushes are as would be in any defence as was always, even when there was no infiltration.

I am not aware that we are letting them in to only have the opportunity to kill them. I wonder if that is true. After all, the more we kill, we would be playing into the hands of the international media, human rights and people like Milliband. I saw an AFP report here on this forum which called the terrorists as 'rebels'! Such people will spin any story to make India look bad and so if we lure people in just to kill, then these types would have a field day and thank India for their daily bread. That is why, I wonder. I have during the various stages of my service been in the frontlines to stop, in the depth to chase the terrorists and also in tolerably in high post to know the policy. I have not heard of such a policy of luring to kill.

I would not like to discuss the modus operandi of the terrorist on an open forum but it would suffice it to say, there is a method in the madness to establish camp in forests and in high mountain areas!

There was also views that we should use air, artillery, napalm and the like on these terrorists. Napalm cannot be used against civilians and Geneva Convention is still to clarify as to what is the status of terrorists. By not using artillery or air, we are avoiding serious collateral damage. While the Coalition forces have no qualm to use them since the people are not of their country, we do consider that Kashmiris are Indians and have an equal right to live, even if some of their kith and kin are mislead into the wrong path.

Would in Delhi, the police raze down a house just because they have seen a thief entering the home of his kith and kin? What has the kith and kin done wrong to have their house burnt down?!

I appreciate the anger that you all have. They are very genuine and understandable. However, in such knotty issues, the requirement for calm and clear thoughts and orders are very essential. It is not that we are beyond anger. But we have a task to do and do it in a way that it helps the govt.

[manjgu]

RayC... intersting insights.. just 2 quick points

a) you had issues with terrorists and rebels being equated.. and you want to treat a thief and terrorist as same...collateral damage etc.. did not quite get the logic.

b) i was wondering what would have been the collateral damage in the kupwara encounter...which to us lay men appeared to be in the deep forests?

for your comments please...

[manjgu]

contd....

to the best of my knowledge and information ( my brother in law) was in RR out of Kupwara some 3 years back... houses which harbour terrorists or act as sanctuaries are often burned down ( blown by explosive charges).... totally destroyed since they are quite wooden.. along with neighbouring houses, when fire starts... is this not collateral damage.... though i agree it is difficult to use air power in resedential areas...