J & K news and discussion

satya · Post by **satya** » 25 Mar 2009 15:34

There was a live press conference covered live by Times Now where Brig. Gurmeet Singh , Brigadier General Staff 15 Corps (most probably 15th pls correct if otherwise ) answered questions regarding encounter near LoC :

1} There were two operations

2} One was against reception party of terrorists tht came to receive fresh batch of terrorists .This was one of two encounters

3} Infiltrated group of terrorists with whom 2nd encounter took place

4} All LeT men

5} IA had advanced humint both from our side & across LoC intelligence , very specific about this infiltration & reception party meet .

6) One encounter not sure which one was handled exclusively by Brigade troops responsible for tht particular sector

7} 2nd encounter was handled by Para SF & RR troops

8} 17 terrorists killed in total . This is not the total number of terrorists tht were involved in this operation but its near tht total number & exact number was not told by Brigadier

9} Combing op still on

10} Highly trained & equipment very specialized for infiltration in snow terrain & had GPS compass & AK53 rifles . Radio sets with various frequencies . More things in terrorist's bags but not mentioned in details for very good reasons

11} Visibility very poor & biggest hindrance in operation as terrain under 6-8ft. of snow & heavy forest area

12} All terrorists were foreign nationals

13} 8 martyrs on our side . RIP brave souls .

It seems like a big set back for LeT . Since not only they were finished off near LoC but pin point humint ( something Brigadier Singh mentioned 2-3 times good psyops ) . LeT is trying to cover its losses trying to show it as a pre planned operation against IA but reality speaks otherwise .

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 25 Mar 2009 15:44

^^^minor correction satya ji,
it was 53 AK-47s not AK-53.some UBGLs were also recovered.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 25 Mar 2009 16:06

Way to go. Catch the pigs on their way in.
RIP brave soldiers.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 25 Mar 2009 17:26

Why not use air-power in these kind of situations? A UAV with some IR/EW scanners can easily pin point the pigs and dramatically improve the situational awareness of the soldiers. Send the feed down to the SATHI or something similar. Of course nothing prevents the IAF from dropping high explosives to wipe out the pigs in a large area. It is stupid to lose good men because of the lack of situational awareness and firepower lacking shock and awe.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Mar 2009 17:45

sum

Yes

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 25 Mar 2009 18:23

Havaldar Rakesh Kumar does Samba proud

While tracking the footprints of terrorists in Kupwara district on Mar 21, he came under heavy fire from terrorists. The gun-fight lasted for more than three hours, resulting in elimination of two dreaded terrorists and martyrdom of Rakesh Kumar

A VALIANT soldier of the Indian Army, havaldar Rakesh Kumar from Samba district of Jammu laid down his life, fighting terrorists in Kashmir. While tracking the footprints of terrorists in Kupwara district on Mar 21, he came under heavy fire from terrorists. He retaliated immediately and during battle, one of the terrorists was killed and he was also injured in the fight.

Without caring for personal safety, Rakesh continued his fight against the terrorists. During the ensuing fight, his colleague was also injured. Rakesh engaged another terrorist; during the gun- battle, he sustained another gunshot, but he managed to rescue his injured colleague and killed the other terrorist too. The gun-fight lasted for more than three hours, resulting in elimination of two dreaded terrorists and martyrdom of havaldar Rakesh Kumar.

Rakesh had also participated in many successful CI Operations in the districts of Kupwara and Rajouri. Hav Rakesh Kumar laid down his life for the nation. He is a resident of village Daurie, Tehsil Sarna of Samba district. He is survived by aged parents, wife, and two minor children. His cremation was be held at Daurie village with full military honours.

RIP ..

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Mar 2009 18:30

satya wrote:There was a live press conference covered live by Times Now where Brig. Gurmeet Singh , Brigadier General Staff 15 Corps (most probably 15th pls correct if otherwise ) answered questions regarding encounter near LoC :

It seems like a big set back for LeT . Since not only they were finished off near LoC but pin point humint ( something Brigadier Singh mentioned 2-3 times good psyops ) . LeT is trying to cover its losses trying to show it as a pre planned operation against IA but reality speaks otherwise.

Minor correction. That last bit should read:

It seems like a big set back for TSPA/ISI/LeT. Since not only they were finished off near LoC but pin point humint ( something Brigadier Singh mentioned 2-3 times good psyops ) . TSPA/ISI/LeT combine are trying to cover their losses trying to show it as a pre planned operation against IA but reality speaks otherwise.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 25 Mar 2009 18:35

This is for all those Piggies who think Kashmiris are anti-Indians...
Kashmir weeps for its martyred soldier

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Mar 2009 19:17

Dmurphy wrote:This is for all those Piggies who think Kashmiris are anti-Indians...
Kashmir weeps for its martyred soldier

Not be be overly communal and stuff but notice he is a Shia(The Shias of Kargil had staunchly stood by us and they might be much better than the sunni folk who are being indoctrinated by Saudi funded preachers in the valley)....
RIP,sir... you laid down your life for our tomorrow!!!

Anyways, one of the T-shirts recovered from the pig reads:

"Jihad is my life" and a line below says "Shadhat is my way of life" or something similar

They seem to be even getting the pigs mission specific costumes!!!

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Mar 2009 19:24

VikramS wrote:Why not use air-power in these kind of situations? A UAV with some IR/EW scanners can easily pin point the pigs and dramatically improve the situational awareness of the soldiers. Send the feed down to the SATHI or something similar. Of course nothing prevents the IAF from dropping high explosives to wipe out the pigs in a large area. It is stupid to lose good men because of the lack of situational awareness and firepower lacking shock and awe.

Would this option have worked given that these were trained pigs and would have spread out all over the place in thick forests and snow?

Maybe, we did use UAVs to track the pigs but they were so well trained and the terrian so tricky that even after being pinpointed, the jawans(even the SF guys, many of whom we lost

) had to face massive problems...

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 25 Mar 2009 19:39

I am not being insensitive here nor minimizing the sacrifices of the soldiers but the preference for the use of man-power over air-power may have something to do with the labour-intensive nature of Indian work-practices in general.

Perhaps someone who has access to training costs versus equipment costs can chip in here.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 25 Mar 2009 20:37

These are inhabited places.

The Gujjars and Bakarwals herd their sheep and cattle on the slopes in the dhoks. In fact, the stay out there and return to the lower areas once the snow falls. Therefore, air power would, in all probability, kill them too and that would not be accepted by the political powers that be, as well would go against the change of mindset that Op Sadbhavna has achieved!

The restraint shown by the Army has gone a long way in changing the mindset as was proved in the unprecedented voting, inspite of the Hurriyat's call to boycott. It has unnerved the separatists, so much so, even Lone is thinking of joining the mainstream politics!

International law does not necessarily prohibit the use of napalm or other incendiaries against military targets, but use against civilian populations was banned by the United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, (often referred to as the CCW) in 1980.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 25 Mar 2009 21:02

VikramS wrote:Send the feed down to the SATHI or something similar.

SATHI (Situational And Tactical Hand held Information) system was deemed to be a failure, as from the information I have. It could not succeed in putting up a good show during the trials. It was found to be too slow, and so could not be used efficiently in real time where every second counts. But I honestly do feel that Army and the computer firm should have continued in improving this device.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Mar 2009 21:23

Ray sir,

In case you have served in the Haphruda forest area, can you perhaps describe for us, a bit how the terrain is and what natural features help the defenders (such as caves etc.) and whether UAV based surveillance in such an area is even practical? Our leaders a loathe to spend money on missile-armed UAVs but if aerial real-time surveillance can help in pin pointing defender positions, that in itself might be a big help. Personally, I think the dense forest cover is a real problem in its use, combined with the snow and harsh terrain.

---------
The large number of casualities seem to indicate that the terrorists also had set up ambushes and waited for the lead section to appear in some kind of kill zone before opening fire. That way they probably caught multiple soldiers in the same cross-fire such as what might have happened on Saturday when the Major and 4 soldiers died.

thegreyman · Post by **thegreyman** » 26 Mar 2009 00:18

I think the media should have covered the funeral of Shabbir Ahmed Malik ( a martyred trooper from 1 Para) in greater detail. Isn't it high time we harnessed the power of the media to cover these issues a la Fox News in the USA? Millions of Indian ought to have seen the scenes of thousands of Kashmiris shouting slogans in honour of the fallen soldier as opposed to the "azadi" slogans that we usually associate with the valley.

Yes, Shabbir might be Shia and Shia's in Kashmir are generally more sympathetic towards India but this subtle distinction might not be apparent when such images are flashed across the country. It's about time we launched a propaganda war- no doubt we have a lot to learn from the guys in Muridke.

Check out Anil Athale sir's latest article
http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/mar/ ... answer.htm

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2009 01:55

Militants/Terrorists were LeT:Army

Militants killed in Kupwara were from LeT: Army

Srinagar (PTI): The 17 militants killed in Kupwara were from Lashkar-e-Toiba and equipment seized from them indicated that Pakistani security forces had assisted them in infiltrating Indian territory, the Army on Wednesday said.

The terrorists killed in the operations belonged to Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) and were "highly trained, well-kitted and indoctrinated", Army's Srinagar-based 15 Corps Brigadier General Staff Brig Gurmit Singh told reporters here.

He said "the map, guidance systems and equipment (with terrorists) is indicative that the state and security forces assistance from across the border was there as such material is not usually there in the civil domain."

23 AK assault rifles, one pistol, four Under Barrel Grenade Launchers (UBGLs), 19 UBGL grenades, two hand grenades, two global positioning systems and 10 radio sets were recovered from the slain militants, Singh said.

No fresh exchange of fire has occurred since last evening and the army was carrying out combing operations in Drangyari and Hafroda forest area after the five-day encounter, which left eight army personnel, including Major Mohit Sharma.

The army officer strongly refuted LeT's claim that they killed 25 soldiers during the encounter saying "eight soldiers including Major Mohit Sharma made the supreme sacrifice."

LeT has claimed responsibility for the Kupwara siege and threatened to intensify attacks across the Kashmir valley.

Note the Army calls them as terrorists and the newpaper calls them militants.

Also this is a replay of Mumbai Attacks. LeT terrorists trained in TSP Army camps and provided equipment and infiltration help.

If they release pics please post here.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 26 Mar 2009 02:04

300 Terrorists Waiting To Cross Over

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 26 Mar 2009 02:06

ramana wrote:Militants/Terrorists were LeT:Army
Militants killed in Kupwara were from LeT: Army

Will these pigs be buried by the local muslims or denied burial like the Bombay pond scums were?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 26 Mar 2009 02:23

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2009 02:31

We on BRF are not the only ones to note the similarity to Mumbai Terrorist attack.

The Ploy behind the Kupwara attack

....
The encounters between the Army and the LeT in the Kupwara area during the last five days clearly show that Asif Ali Zardari's government is following the same policy as Musharraf.

It is following a policy of legitimising the terrorist acts of the LeT in J&K and, at the same time, pretending to co-operate with the Government of India in the investigation of the LeT's terrorist strike in Mumbai.

The heavily forested Kupwara is not the sprawling urban Mumbai. Encounters within forests have nothing in common with encounters with terrorists entrenched inside urban buildings and going on a shooting spree in crowded public places in a big city such as Mumbai.

But there are disconcerting similarities between what happened in Mumbai between November 26 and 29, 2008, and between what has happened during the last five days in the Kupwara area -- simultaneous, well-orchestrated attacks on multiple targets, whether static or moving army patrols, a skilful use of hand-held weapons and gadgets such as GPS systems, suicidal and not suicide terrorism, strike, stay and fight tactics instead of the hit and vanish tactics and an ability to keep the encounters with the security forces going for a long time in order to make an impact on the local population and the international community through dramatic media reports.

In the weeks before the polls, it will be the aim of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and the terrorists sponsored by it to step up violence in J&K through so-called indigenous Kashmiri organisations and to encourage elements belonging to the Indian Mujahideen and its ally the Students' Islamic Movement of India (SIMI, which have not committed any major act of terrorism after the Delhi blasts of September,2008, to strike again.

These have to be factored into our security plan for the elections.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 26 Mar 2009 03:01

Got access to NDTV recently. It seems they forgot the Kashmir encounter altogether. That Barkha whatever looks ugly

OMG

tripathi · Post by **tripathi** » 26 Mar 2009 04:15

^^ she looks male to me.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 26 Mar 2009 07:00

The sad part of all this is that for the Pakis it is no great loss as these 17 terrorists were surely their otherwise good-for-nothing scum like Ajmal Kasab whom they pick up from among their 'disposables' and train and infiltrate into India. We, on the other hand, lose our bravest fighting against them. It is a bad bargain.

The covert war must be carried inside Pakistan, and Paki army must be made to lose its men and officers in the fight. Then only will they feel the pain.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 26 Mar 2009 07:04

video news report of kipwara encounter

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 26 Mar 2009 10:40

X-post

LoC breach: Alerted, Army laid a trap for Lashkar men before 5-day firefight began

ed online: Mar 26, 2009 at 0214 hrs
MUZAMIL JALEEL & MIR EHSAN

SRINAGAR : At the end of the five-day Kupwara encounter that killed eight Army personnel and 17 Lashkar operatives, all evidence points to “extremely sophisticated planning and logistics” behind the biggest infiltration attempt across the Line of Control this year, security officers involved in the operation said.

Army chief General Deepak Kapoor said the high casualties of Indian Special Forces — all eight from the crack 1 Para — indicated a “high level of military training.” As did the nature of the infiltration attempt — through treacherous terrain and the recovery of highly detailed maps of the forests, along with GPS devices, radios, satellite phones, snowboots and ice axes.

At 10,273 feet, a narrow, winding road over the Sadhna Pass — its surface covered by frozen ice — is the only entrance into the stunning valleys of Karnah in the Kashmir Valley. To its left, in the vast isolated swathe, walled by the snow-capped peaks of the Shamsabari range, is the heavily guarded Line of Control. It was here on March 19, that 25 militants sneaked in — watched by both the Army and the Lashkar-e-Toiba.

Sources have confirmed to The Indian Express that militants who crossed over were well on their way to hideouts in Rajwar where Lashkar’s commander Abu Saad was waiting. Saad, it’s learnt, had sent three of his experienced militants to “receive” this new group. But this time, the Army knew and it had Lashkar’s key OGWs (Over Ground Workers) under watch.

Sources said intelligence from across the LoC had alerted security agencies a week in advance. Moreover, early this month, two smaller groups of militants had already crossed over into the Rajwar area and a third group of 10 had sneaked into the valley through Gulmarg. “So we were expecting them. We knew they were coming but our information was about a group of 10 militants,” a source told The Indian Express.

Army officials say the infiltration was launched most probably from somewhere in the Lepa valley. After they crossed over, the militants trekked the Shamsabari’s high ridges that divides the Keran sector from the Kashmir bowl.

In parallel, the Army began moving to lay an ambush. The plan was to avoid engaging the militants near the LoC and thus prevent them from retreating. “They were allowed to sneak in under constant watch,” a source said. The infiltrators were first spotted at Ragni post where one militant was killed. The first major contact with the militants took place at around 3 am on March 20 at Drangyari. “Three were killed there,” said Army spokesman Col J S Brar, “one of them escaped and was killed at Chamb”.

By then, the group had scattered under night’s cover and the Army had expanded its operation across the Shamsabari range, pushing reinforcements into the dense Hafruda forests — one of the thickest stretched across Kupwara and Handwara districts. The Army’s Trehgam Brigade, two battalions of the Rashtriya Rifles and para commandos were deployed. Sources said the Lashkar “reception party” had already joined the infiltrators but somehow the guide possibly lost his way.

The next afternoon, on March 21, Major Mohit Sharma along with a party of para commandos, decided to go deep inside the Hafruda forests. A group of militants, however, had been hiding over the ridge — which gave them an immediate advantage. Major Sharma and three of his men were killed in the firefight.

By Monday, the Army had sent out dozens of parties inside Hafruda, expanding the operation to almost an area of 20 sq km. Fierce gunbattles raged across the area. Close-quarter encounters took place at two places — one inside the Hafruda forests and another in Drangyari. Five militants were killed while four Army men, Havaldar Rakesh Kumar, Nayak Sanjay Anna and Para troopers Manoj Kumar and Shabir Ahmad, were killed. All were officers and men from the Para unit — equipped with AK 47 and Israeli Tavor rifles, new generation night-sights and tracking equipment.

On Tuesday, the troops were again in control and the cordon had been tightened around the militants holed up in Hafruda. Seven militants were killed that day.

Army officials said they found this group of infiltrators “exceptionally trained” and “well-kitted” wearing multilayered warm clothing, jackets, snowshoes and even armed with ice axes. The militants also had modern communication gadgets and were using GPS, compasses, one Thuraya set and Army maps. “They had 10 radio sets as well. We also recovered 23 AK rifles,” said Col Brar. “They had boots and axes, the kind we use in Siachen. The boots were made in Iran.”

(Pakfauj operating at LeT for some major fireworks in J&K?)

The militants, who communicated in codes, also had elaborate maps of Kupwara and Handwara especially of the dense forest ranges. The seriousness of the plan was evident in the specially tailored T-shirts for this group. The T-shirts had “Jihad is my life, Shahadat (martyrdom) is my real life” printed on them. There were T-shirts which “Commando” inscribed as well.

The Army estimates that the level of infiltration will go up in coming months as the snow starts melting in the passes. “Over 300 militants are waiting to infiltrate from 40-50 terror camps across the LoC,” the Army Chief said. Army officers said that with less than 400 active militants estimated in the valley, handlers across the border are getting desperate to send in more foot soldiers.

(with Manu Pubby, New Delhi)

Inder Sharma · Post by **Inder Sharma** » 26 Mar 2009 12:34

I think the Piglets were trained for the Dams.

Gen Kapoor and many others have been making sound bytes in that context in the recent past. Moreso, i remember, security of more than one dams(other than Bhakra) being tightened recently.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 26 Mar 2009 12:44

Inder Sharma wrote:I think the Piglets were trained for the Dams.

Gen Kapoor and many others have been making sound bytes in that context in the recent past. Moreso, i remember, security of more than one dams(other than Bhakra) being tightened recently.

Kammandu attack? And using RDX stocks already in the state. Makes sense. Look above. All the AK-47s above are folding buttstock models. Maybe nuthin to it. Or maybe not.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 26 Mar 2009 12:45

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 317229.cms

Top Hizbul terrorists arrested in Jammu

JAMMU: Two Hizbul terrorists, whose mission was to disrupt polls in the valley, have been arrested in Jammu. One of the two men, Zahid Ahmad Dar is a top commander of the terror outfit and a close aide of Hizbul supremo Syed Salhuddin. Zahid's main objective was to explore the territory and lay the groundwork for the attack, which was aimed at disrupting polls in the region. The other terrorist, Ateeq Ullah Dar is Zahid Ahmad's associate.

"Zahid Ahmad Dar was in Pakistan for six years. He first went in to be trained and then later on went on to train people in various training centers and mingled with other senior functionaries. He also stayed with the Hizbul chief Syed Salahuddin in Islamabad," SSP of Jammu, Manohar Singh told reporters. The men entered India flying in from Kathmandu and finally making their way to Jammu via Gorakhpur. The arrest of a top Hizbul commander reaffirms the worrying trend of rising intrusions - just ahead of the polls.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holn ... 261051.htm

Top LeT militant killed in encounter in Kashmir

Srinagar (PTI): A top Lashkar-e-Toiba militant was killed in an encounter with security forces in Kupwara district, a defence spokesman said on Thursday. On a specific information, security forces launched a search operation in Dousa village last night and in the ensuing gunbattle the self-styled district commander of LeT Abdullah was killed.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 26 Mar 2009 14:07

I hope they are infected with HIV and left to rot , I'm not paying taxes to keep these basters alive in our prisons and one day see them go free in return for hostages (Indian or Videshi).

Kudos to security for forces for nailing the pigs before they cause trouble.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Mar 2009 16:04

Two things about Kupwara

1. news reports suggest 25 pigs, only 17 dead, where are the rest?
2. mountainous forests offer tremendous advantages to a defending force, particularly if they are in the high ground. if the encounter happened at night and we took high casualties, the pigs probably had NVG's. in terrain like this, can't imagine that anything more than rifle, bayonet and grenade would make a difference...?

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 26 Mar 2009 16:17

More on the pigs slaying
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holn ... 261501.htm

LeT, Jaish militants killed in Kashmir

Srinagar (IANS): A top guerrilla of the terror outfit Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and another from Jaish-e-Mohammed have been killed in separate gun battles with security forces in Jammu and Kashmir, the army said on Thursday. A defense spokesperson said the Rashtriya Rifles and the police Special Operations Group surrounded a forested area at Dooraswani in Lolab, 110 km from here, in north Kashmir late Wednesday.

"While the security forces were searching the forest, militants hiding there opened fire, resulting in a gunfight at the end of which one militant was killed," Lt. Col. J.S. Brar told IANS hereon Thursday morning. "The militant has been identified as Abdullah Uni of Pakistan and was a district commander of LeT." Arms and ammunition were recovered from there. The other militant was killed by the police and the army in a forested area of north Kashmir's Bandipore district on Wednesday evening. He was identified as Waseem, a divisional commander of the Pakistan-based Jaish-e-Mohammed.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 26 Mar 2009 21:55

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7965451.stm

Kashmiri Shia mourn Kupwara army Martyr...

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 27 Mar 2009 18:40

RayC sir,

From the description it seems that this was an ice/snow covered area. Unlikely to be actively used for grazing or so densely populated.

Further the primary purpose of air-power is situational awareness, the biggest challenge our special forces face. It was evident during 26/11 too when even the GOC was incorrect on the number of pigs in the Taj almost 24 hours after the attack started.

The Major's team which took four fatal casualties was ambushed by pigs sitting on a ridge. A UAV with IR and EM sensors could easily pinpoint the pigs and their position. The movements of a cattle-herder are going to be different from a pig. The pig will seek strategic safe positions, the cattle herder will not.

Further you do not have to attack from the air if there is a risk of collateral damage. You can make announcements to warn the civies to move out from an ambush area before you attack. This not only take the initiative from the pigs but also force them to look up and look down at the same time. Whether you actual destroy the ridge with 500Kg bombs is altogether a different thing. The fear of the bomb in the mind of the pigs will itself give the good guys the edge since the pigs have to take positions which secure them from an air attack instead of positions where they can ambush the good guys. And if force from the air is used it could be a strafing run or a chopper based fire. I have heard arguments that the pigs will then escalate by bringing in Stingers but I find the argument bogus since it requires a further strengthening of their logistical chain. Further if they could they would have already.

I am no military man, but I am convinced that when it comes to such kind of cordon and clean operations in remote areas, our forces DO NOT use technology effectively. It seems to be a man to man kind of affair. The pigs are just not worth the men who die.

RayC wrote:These are inhabited places.

The Gujjars and Bakarwals herd their sheep and cattle on the slopes in the dhoks. In fact, the stay out there and return to the lower areas once the snow falls. Therefore, air power would, in all probability, kill them too and that would not be accepted by the political powers that be, as well would go against the change of mindset that Op Sadbhavna has achieved!

The restraint shown by the Army has gone a long way in changing the mindset as was proved in the unprecedented voting, inspite of the Hurriyat's call to boycott. It has unnerved the separatists, so much so, even Lone is thinking of joining the mainstream politics!

International law does not necessarily prohibit the use of napalm or other incendiaries against military targets, but use against civilian populations was banned by the United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, (often referred to as the CCW) in 1980.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Mar 2009 12:58

VikramS wrote:RayC sir,

From the description it seems that this was an ice/snow covered area. Unlikely to be actively used for grazing or so densely populated.

Further the primary purpose of air-power is situational awareness, the biggest challenge our special forces face. It was evident during 26/11 too when even the GOC was incorrect on the number of pigs in the Taj almost 24 hours after the attack started.

The Major's team which took four fatal casualties was ambushed by pigs sitting on a ridge. A UAV with IR and EM sensors could easily pinpoint the pigs and their position. The movements of a cattle-herder are going to be different from a pig. The pig will seek strategic safe positions, the cattle herder will not.

Further you do not have to attack from the air if there is a risk of collateral damage. You can make announcements to warn the civies to move out from an ambush area before you attack. This not only take the initiative from the pigs but also force them to look up and look down at the same time. Whether you actual destroy the ridge with 500Kg bombs is altogether a different thing. The fear of the bomb in the mind of the pigs will itself give the good guys the edge since the pigs have to take positions which secure them from an air attack instead of positions where they can ambush the good guys. And if force from the air is used it could be a strafing run or a chopper based fire. I have heard arguments that the pigs will then escalate by bringing in Stingers but I find the argument bogus since it requires a further strengthening of their logistical chain. Further if they could they would have already.

I am no military man, but I am convinced that when it comes to such kind of cordon and clean operations in remote areas, our forces DO NOT use technology effectively. It seems to be a man to man kind of affair. The pigs are just not worth the men who die.

RayC wrote:These are inhabited places.

The Gujjars and Bakarwals herd their sheep and cattle on the slopes in the dhoks. In fact, the stay out there and return to the lower areas once the snow falls. Therefore, air power would, in all probability, kill them too and that would not be accepted by the political powers that be, as well would go against the change of mindset that Op Sadbhavna has achieved!

The restraint shown by the Army has gone a long way in changing the mindset as was proved in the unprecedented voting, inspite of the Hurriyat's call to boycott. It has unnerved the separatists, so much so, even Lone is thinking of joining the mainstream politics!

International law does not necessarily prohibit the use of napalm or other incendiaries against military targets, but use against civilian populations was banned by the United Nations Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, (often referred to as the CCW) in 1980.

RayC sir,

Is there a tacit understanding among parties concerned not to escalate to use of air power?

Even in Kargil, we came to air power quite late in the day.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 29 Mar 2009 22:02

on the use of airpower, some thoughts and snippets from previous readings

1. isn't there an agreement to not fly fast jets within 15kms of the IB/LOC?
2. cost/benefit of LGB'ing jehadis not high - we don't have the cash that Unkil has
3. use of LGB's etc., in mountains not proven as a game changer
4. Attack Helis not capable at altitudes in question
5. Those Helis that are altitude capable are not night capable, and have little armament
6. No desire to use 'overwhelming force' against our own people - although these pigs are clearly not insurgents/militants but foreign terrorists and combatants

However, i echo thoughts of others who speak of UAV tracking and fixing of infiltrators, this we do need

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 29 Mar 2009 22:14

Will someone be held responsible for the death of 8 SF guys in this Ops. Does Army conduct its own in-house inquiry to see if there was a better way of conducting the operations and if Yes what happens to the officer in command.
About Air Power, is it totally ruled out in such scenarios or is considered on case to case bases ? Is it the AF or the Army who makes the decision?I think losing 8 SF personal should be taken very seriously.

GuruPrabhu · Post by **GuruPrabhu** » 29 Mar 2009 22:18

The use of Air Power to make Roast Bacon is exactly what the fund raisers for these pigs want, makes a good PR multimedia asset for the jamat-u-dawas of the world to take their begging bowl to the middle east with more vigour, thereby equating the Cashmere problem with the Palestine problem another consideration is whether the pigs have been able to smuggle in a few stingers which may change the game considerably
Trust the IAF to come up with innovative ways to make roast bacon at bearable costs, it is only politial considerations which are holding them back.
IIRC operation sarpavinash was one such instance where air power was used against terrorists

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Apr 2009 10:29

Lots of grey matter being expended on "cutting edge" research:

Link

Is stone-pelting Islamic: Kashmiri separatists debate

RIYAZ WANI Posted: Mar 31, 2009 at 1814 hrs IST

Srinagar: Is stone-pelting as a form of resistance Islamic? This is a question whose answer deeply preoccupies Kashmir these days.

On one side of the debate are the separatists leaders and on the other the city police chief who terms this method of protest un-Islamic. The debate has added up so many dimensions that it has even polarized the secessionists.

Heaving a big stone into the already choppy waters is the president of Jamiat-i-Ahlihadith Moulana Showkat Ahmad Shah who created a stir by coming out with a fatwa that pelting stones on the armed security personnel was not sanctioned by Islam.

Shah quoted a hadith, saying stone pelting was forbidden by Prophet Muhammad. “How can we as Muslims declare lawful what our revered Prophet Muhammad has declared unlawful,” Moulana Showkat said while addressing a Friday prayer meeting at a mosque in Gaw Kadal.

“If anyone has argument in the light of holy Quran and Sunnah to prove stone pelting as a lawful act in Islam, he should come forward with it. I promise that I will take my words back and tender an apology”.

Shah was backed in his interpretation by no less than Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, the chairman of the moderate faction of Hurriyat Conference – Kashmir’s separatist political conglomerate - who has made a fervent appeal to the youth not to indulge in stone pelting as, according to him, it caused inconvenience to the masses and gave the authorities chance to defame the freedom movement.

But the two have received a stinging rebuff from the chief of the hardline Hurriyat faction Syed Ali Shah Geelani who has said that the occupation of Kashmir by India justified resistance and thereby stone-pelting.

“People throw stones when they are showered with the bullets. Under no circumstances can bullets be the answer to stones in a civilized state,” Geelani who himself is a religious scholar said while addressing a gathering at Nawhatta.

“The deployment of thousands of armed personnel needlessly in populated areas was a provocation in itself. It was natural for youth to react with anger and pelt stones”.

Geelani has been supported in his assessment by the largest Kashmiri militant outfit Hizbul Mujahideen which has outrightly justified the stone pelting on police and paramilitary personnel.

“The police and paramilitary resort to heavy baton charge and fire tear smoke shells and bullets towards the protestors who demand freedom. Under such situation, the protestors are justified in pelting stones at the cops,” Hizb’s spokesman Ahsan Illahi said.

“The stone pelting is forbidden in Islam when it is hurled on powerless or an innocent person. When bullets and tear smoke shells are showered on peaceful protestors, they have every reason to respond in the same coin. However, when bullets are not available, at least the powerless can hurl the stones to lodge their protest and display their resistance against the occupying force”.

Similarly, the president of the Islamic Students League Shakeel Baskhi has termed the stone pelting as permissible. “Fatwas issued against stone-pelting have no basis,” Bakshi said.

“ Stone pelting has always remained a part of the freedom movement”. Bakshi even held a seminar in defense of the stone pelters on Sunday, where the speakers slammed the opponents of this method of protest as collaborators of the government. “It is an expression of the deep pent-up anger against India and a Kashmiri version of Intifada”.

The seminar held at a local hotel had large pictures of the Palestinian writer and eminent intellectual Edward Said throwing stones at the Israeli soldiers.

Over the past nine months, the stone-pelting has become an established mode of protests in parts of Srinagar. More so on Fridays, outside the city’s central Grand Mosque. Soon after the weekly Friday prayers conclude, the neighbouring streets surge with the youth, most of them in their teens, and rain pebbles on the police and paramilitary personnel deployed along the road. The police in return use teargas shells, even bullets which lead to occasional killing of a protester. The clash only winds down towards the evening when the protesting youth themselves decide to disperse.

July-August 2008: 60 people die in the protests against Amarnath land transfer. The protests make the stone-pelting a routine in downtown Srinagar and the major towns like Baramulla and Sopore. More so, on Fridays when youth in Srinagar took to stone pelting even without a formal separatist call.

28 January 2009: Senior Superintendent of Police Afadul Mujtaba quotes a hadith declaring stone-pelting unIslamic.

Februay-March 2009: Hurriyat chairman Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and Jamiat Ahle-Hadith chief Moulana Showkat Ahmad Shah also declare stone pelting un-Islamic. They are opposed by Geelani and Hizbul Mujahideen who say the stones are the weapon of the weak. Some separatists like Shakeel Bakshi even hold a seminar to discuss the issue.

Absolute jobless freaks...

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 01 Apr 2009 10:45

^^^
And All this is happening in india...un-islamic and stuff like that..i mean we used to be a secular country isint it??What about pelting hand granades..the next time some pelts a stone at a armyman..they should respond by pelting a hand grenade

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Apr 2009 09:21

Mumbai terror architect crafts infiltration surge
Praveen Swami
Satellite phones used at Lashkar headquarters found in J&K

SRINAGAR: Ever since the massacre in Mumbai in November 2008, intelligence services across the world have searched, without success, for one of its architects: a Lashkar-e-Taiba commander known only by the twin aliases Muzammil and Yusuf.

Now, highly-placed police and intelligence sources have told The Hindu, the man who had hands-on responsibility for the tactical training of the terrorists as well as pre-assault reconnaissance, has resurfaced in Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan-administered Kashmir. And he has been commanding a surge in infiltration that has sparked off some of the most intense fighting seen along the Line of Control in years.

Muzammil, the sources said, had crafted a new infiltration strategy — involving pushing unusually large groups across dangerous but thinly-defended snow-covered high-altitude passes — at meetings held in the first week of March with representatives of the Hizb ul-Mujahideen, al-Badr, the Harkat ul-Mujahideen and the Jaish-e-Mohammad.

Since then, there have been at least three major infiltration attempts in Gurez, Kupwara and Handwara — one of which resulted in the death of 18 terrorists and eight members of the Indian Army’s crack 1 Paracommando Regiment.{What happened to the other two?}

A veteran of the Lashkar’s jihad in Jammu and Kashmir, Muzammil was given hands-on charge of the organisation’s pan-India operations around 2001. He specialised in using the Lashkar’s Jammu and Kashmir-based fidayeen assets to execute operations outside the State, starting with the September 2002 attack on the Akshardham Temple in Gandhinagar, Gujarat.

Last year, Western media reported Muzammil’s arrest in a Pakistan Army raid on the Lashkar’s Shawai Nullah base northwest of Muzaffarabad. His name did not, however, figure among several Lashkar suspects Pakistani authorities later admitted to have arrested.

Electronic evidence harvested by India’s communications intelligence services has underlined fears that the Lashkar’s military infrastructure has again been unleashed. Last month, Research and Analysis Wing analysts determined that at least half a dozen Thuraya satellite phone sets that had been active northwest of Muzaffarabad — which is the general area of the Lashkar’s Shawai Nullah base — were being used by Lashkar field units operating deep inside Jammu and Kashmir.{Our agencies really seem to have all sat phones under watch!!! Good work}

One satellite phone often used by Muzammil, with the number +88 (216) 55526551, has been used by a Lashkar unit operating near the Amarnath cave-shrine in southern Kashmir. Muzammil is suspected to have used a phone with all but the last digit in common, +88 (216) 55526550, which was among four Thuraya sets to which the Mumbai fidayeen relayed messages from the high seas. Both phones, experts say, were possibly purchased at the same time, as part of a set meant for use by high-ranking Lashkar operatives.

A phone known to have been used by Muzammil’s office assistant, identified in the interrogation of arrested terror suspects as ‘Talha’, has also become active in southern Kashmir.

Lashkar units in Jammu and Kashmir have also resumed communication with a hub across the LoC. Thus, weeks of silence that began days after the Mumbai attacks has ended. The Lashkar’s state-of-the art communications facility is located at Kel, not far from the headquarters of Pakistan’s 32 Infantry Brigade.{Errr, what stops us from sabotaging this place?}

The strategy of winter-time infiltration of the LoC, employing jihadists specially trained and equipped for the mission, is believed to have been crafted by none other than Muzammil alias Yusuf, based on a careful examination of India’s defences along the crucial frontline.

Again, we seem to believe only in defensive tactics....We know where all the jewels of LeT are and just keep waiting for them to attack us(and lose highly trained men of our own) instead of conducting offensive ops against them in their own land.