UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 16 Feb 2009 16:04

Anybody has a clear picture of Lakshya picture from the stall? What is the fuel capacity?

the picture I took is unclear.. need the info for some calculations

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Feb 2009 19:39

rakall wrote:
chetak wrote: quote="Arun_S" Rustom's tall tail is also an indication that the real craft will have much higher landing gear. As Rock-All said th reason for two engines is need for shorter operating airfields. That invariably also means high AoA, and for a craft this long the tail has got be to be tall to stay away from main wings downdraft.

Gen. Mush must be envying Rustom's high mush; compared to downhill running Pak-dog with tail between the legs.

Arun_S ji,

Rustum's specs and open source info don't seem to add up.

Total wt 1800 kgs ?
Fuel 1000 Kgs ??
Payload 350 kgs
Two Rotax 914 series engines (Dry weight) 75 X 2 = 150 kgs ?
Leaving approx 300 kgs for fuselage, retractable undercarriage and controls.

Somehow it doesn't seem to addup given the size of the fuselage unless its much heavier than ADE has let on

There was so much to do.. I did not clarify exactly what the ADE person meant by "total weight".. Was it MTOW or Weight of Rustom airframe alone without payload.. that way MTOW = Total weight + payload.. some semantics missing.. but dont worry yaar -- we got the broad outlines of the machine..

Bro,

You have done an excellent job and on your own time and dime

Didn't mean to nitpick

We will dig out the info from ADE

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 18 Feb 2009 04:55

Tech Focus from 2003 first featured examples of two-stroke engines for UAV applications. I think these also made an appearance at Aeroindia 2007. Did these engines make an appearance at AeroIndia 2009? If so are their any updates when and in what airframe(s) they might be eventually be integrated in?

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 18 Feb 2009 05:32

k prasad wrote: The picture of the wheeled nishant was of the actual flyer... this will undergo taxi trials next month. In what points to sheer stupidity, the Army initially asked for a wheeled version (when the project was first mooted), then asked for a launched version (Resulting in redesigns) and now has asked for a wheeled version again... this has definitely exasperated ADE. The director gave a whole list of reasons why the launched version of the small nishant makes better sense for the Army.

At the risk of being admonished, I have to say something which I have been feeling for a while about the way Army behaves when it comes to managing projects. It just appears that Army is always in the catch up mode. The concept of a thinking soldier, rather then a macho soldier is not being trickled down the ranks, and I hope and pray that I am wrong. Excellent info about our UAV program.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 19 Feb 2009 09:02

k prasad wrote:
Rustom-H:
- 24+ hr endurance
- 35,000 ft ceiling
- ATOL, RM,
- T-tail config
- For use by Army
- 350 kg payload

Qns???

Pleez ejxplain to this madarssa momin kid bhat is meaning aff - ATOL, RM?

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 19 Feb 2009 09:18

^^ ATOL - Automatic Take Off and Landing - Please confirm!

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 19 Feb 2009 10:11

Arun_S wrote:
k prasad wrote:
Rustom-H:
- 24+ hr endurance
- 35,000 ft ceiling
- ATOL, RM,
- T-tail config
- For use by Army
- 350 kg payload

Qns???
Pleez ejxplain to this madarssa momin kid bhat is meaning aff - ATOL, RM?

ATOL is right - Auto TO and Landing... there was no expansion of RM provided, unfortunately, since even I am an ignorant SDRE!!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Feb 2009 10:19

RM ----> Remotely Manned.

ajay_ijn · Post by **ajay_ijn** » 19 Feb 2009 10:55

Impressive to see Predator/Reaper single handedly taking on Taliban in NWFP. But what is the possibility of using Taliban using Stinger types or even RPGs against them. Even if UAVs operate during night, Taliban/many paki terrorists are said to use NVGs and who knows may be even Thermal imaging cameras. however AFAIK not a single UAV was reported to be shot down by Taliban in NWFP in last many years. strange considering, even heavy machine guns can possibly be used against armed predators. but some or the other day Taliban would learn how to target UAVs. they even possibly chase Predators using their pick up trucks.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 19 Feb 2009 11:07

correct me if i am wrong but predator will be flying too high to be shot by a stinger moreover they are too silent even too be detected by paki airdefences forget taliban. i guess the whole idea behind these strikes is to kill mercenaries quitely i.e they do not know what hit 'em

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 19 Feb 2009 11:14

ajay_ijn wrote:Impressive to see Predator/Reaper single handedly taking on Taliban in NWFP. But what is the possibility of using Taliban using Stinger types or even RPGs against them. Even if UAVs operate during night, Taliban/many paki terrorists are said to use NVGs and who knows may be even Thermal imaging cameras. however AFAIK not a single UAV was reported to be shot down by Taliban in NWFP in last many years. strange considering, even heavy machine guns can possibly be used against armed predators. but some or the other day Taliban would learn how to target UAVs. they even possibly chase Predators using their pick up trucks.

I have already asnwered that in my Rustom post -- less chances of detection by ground based radars bcoz of the service cieling.. forget about Taliban "eyes" detecting them at that altitude..

Rustom specific -- Even the chances of detection by airborne radars is expected to be very minimal bcoz the entire body is madeup of FRP composite.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 19 Feb 2009 11:27

rakall wrote:Rustom specific -- Even the chances of detection by airborne radars is expected to be very minimal bcoz the entire body is madeup of FRP composite.

An interesting point noted by Subramanyam (ADA) was that with a full composite, you may also need to reduce the inboard component signature, since RF may penetrate the composite skin, and the internal equipment may in fact increase teh RCS if not controlled

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 19 Feb 2009 21:32

rakall wrote:I have already asnwered that in my Rustom post -- less chances of detection by ground based radars bcoz of the service cieling.. forget about Taliban "eyes" detecting them at that altitude.

Pls explain the physics.
For a survillance radar with 110km range, how is it that it cannot detect a target flying at 100 Km and 10 km (~30,000 ft) altitude (net distance ~101 Km)? BTW Surveillance radar bean is fan shaped (compared to tracking radars that have pencil shaped beam) thus is looking for anything flying high or low.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Feb 2009 21:41

vipins wrote:
above image some what reminds me of this(below) pic of earlier rustom prototype

Both are based on Burt Rutan's VariEze (Very Easy) design which has been adopted by many designers. So nothing extraordinary about the similarity.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 19 Feb 2009 22:51

shiv wrote:
vipins wrote:
above image some what reminds me of this(below) pic of earlier rustom prototype
Both are based on Burt Rutan's VariEze (Very Easy) design which has been adopted by many designers. So nothing extraordinary about the similarity.

Just like Mercedes and BMW has adapted (inspired) in their latest car model the design of super duper Thunderbird from Ford. Just moved an aero fin here to there, bend the leading edge from here to there and viola a new flying craft; VariEze .

I wonder if one will be willing to pilot the aircraft after making the VariEze changes. Proof is in the pudding.

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 19 Feb 2009 23:19

parshuram wrote:correct me if i am wrong but predator will be flying too high to be shot by a stinger moreover they are too silent even too be detected by paki airdefences forget taliban. i guess the whole idea behind these strikes is to kill mercenaries quitely i.e they do not know what hit 'em

Reports are that they make a buzzing sound

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jan/29 ... predator29
The Predator, built by General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc. of San Diego, is a slender craft, 27 feet long with a 49-foot wingspan. It makes a clearly audible buzzing sound, and can hover above a target for many hours and fly as low as 15,000 feet to get good reconnaissance footage. They are often operated by CIA or Pentagon officials at computer consoles in the United States.

There are also numerous reports in the Puki Press about villagers hearing but not seeing these drones

SuKan · Post by **SuKan** » 26 Feb 2009 17:45

UAV Helos

Schiebel S-100 camcopter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-seRXkq ... r_embedded

NG Fire Scout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_evH7QnG ... r_embedded

Please spare me if they have been posted earlier.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 15 Mar 2009 03:08

Pentagon Plans Spy Blimp

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 8400.story

This is an excellent idea for defeating unconventional warfare combatants. Huge loiter time, always there, and all-seeing.

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 15 Mar 2009 16:51

Spy blimp sure but radars that advanced need plenty of power (and cooling) so where will that come from... not the sun for sure.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 15 Mar 2009 17:14

They're claiming that solar power will charge up regenerative hydrogen fuel cells inside the craft. Certainly, a blimp has plenty of surface area for gathering solar power, and the amount of solar energy at 65,000 feet altitude is much greater than here at the Earth's surface.

I think that cheap satellites and even space telescopes could be made like this.

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 15 Mar 2009 17:57

GLOBAL HAWK as BAMS concept

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3e2rg7RJbM

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 27 Mar 2009 13:54

Saw this topic being discussed on BBC.
Predators seem to have a very high number of crashes.

Considered a novelty a few years ago, the Air Force’s fleet has grown to 195 Predators and 28 Reapers, a new and more heavily armed cousin of the Predator.

And even though 13 of the 70 Predator crashes have occurred over the last 18 months, officials said the accident rate has fallen as flying hours have shot up.

All told, 55 have been lost because of equipment failure, operator errors or weather. Four were shot down in Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq; 11 were lost in combat situations, like running out of fuel while protecting troops under fire.

Years down the line, our DDM will never know this or care to research!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/17/busin ... =2&_r=1&hp

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 27 Mar 2009 14:58

dorai wrote:Spy blimp sure but radars that advanced need plenty of power (and cooling) so where will that come from... not the sun for sure.

For power the blimp can carry onboard generator, fuel cells or solar cells. Cooling is not an issue at all. At 65K feet the temperature is in the range of -70 to -80 degree celcius. Just normal airflow over the equipment should do the job.

Cheers....

Sontu · Post by **Sontu** » 27 Mar 2009 15:55

My Apolgies..if following was already posted.
Mods if needed please move it to Pak UAV tech related thread.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3811950

Pakistan Puts UAVs at Center of Technology Effort

says...
................
One of the companies at the forefront of this development is East West Infinity (EWI). EWI's latest products are the Heliquad micro tactical UAV and the Whisper Watch signals intelligence (SIGINT) package.
.....................................................
.....................................................
Karachi-based Integrated Dynamics (ID) has also made a name for itself, not only for exporting its Border Eagle Mk-II UAV to the United States for border patrol duties, but also by exporting UAVs and related subsystems to Australia, Italy, Spain and others, CEO Raja Khan said.

A prolific designer and manufacturer of a wide range of UAV systems, ID has constantly pushed the boundaries of indigenous technology. This has resulted in very compact UAVs such as the 5-kilogram, hand-launched Rover and specialized decoys such as the Tornado
......................................

East West Infinity .....I guess..the same guys/co,a dealer of Garmin sets in Pak ? Mentioned in following thread few days back.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=641983

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 28 Mar 2009 12:41

Sanjay M wrote:Forgive me, but I couldn't find any specific thread on UAVs, drones, and other remotely operated technology platforms, whether for surveillance purposes, direct combat, or otherwise. I felt this topic should have its own thread, as this is a capability that India sees merit in and is seeking to grow. For a country like India, good intelligence capability is a necessity.

There's no reason why air power, when used correctly, can't be used to neutralize geographic high ground.

Sanjay. I have lost yr e-mail ID. Pl contact me on kersikdotiwalla at rediffmail dot com

Kersi

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 28 Mar 2009 14:50

k prasad wrote: Lakshya Mk.2:

Will have upgrades including:
- Full digital FCS (implemented)
- Fully autonomous
- self-propelled towbodies
- Increased RCS (I wonder why)
- Increased endurance adn increased flight envelope.

The upgraded version will have its first test flight in March 2009.

Increased RCS ---> because it is a target drone, I guess??

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 28 Mar 2009 15:47

SKrishna wrote:
k prasad wrote: Lakshya Mk.2:

Will have upgrades including:
- Full digital FCS (implemented)
- Fully autonomous
- self-propelled towbodies
- Increased RCS (I wonder why)
- Increased endurance adn increased flight envelope.

The upgraded version will have its first test flight in March 2009.

Increased RCS ---> because it is a target drone, I guess??

But shouldnt the targetting system be improvised instead to detect and lock on to a low RCS target instead of increasing the RCS and making the Lakshya even more easier to shoot down.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 28 Mar 2009 19:50

Saw this topic being discussed on BBC.
Predators seem to have a very high number of crashes.

Quote:
Considered a novelty a few years ago, the Air Force’s fleet has grown to 195 Predators and 28 Reapers, a new and more heavily armed cousin of the Predator.

Quote:
And even though 13 of the 70 Predator crashes have occurred over the last 18 months, officials said the accident rate has fallen as flying hours have shot up.

All told, 55 have been lost because of equipment failure, operator errors or weather. Four were shot down in Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq; 11 were lost in combat situations, like running out of fuel while protecting troops under fire.

Years down the line, our DDM will never know this or care to research!

Predator crashes cannot be compared to those of manned aircraft.They are flown much more than any manned aircraft.I don't have exact statistics but their sorties are much more in number and longer in terms of hours.As a result number of crashes are more.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 28 Mar 2009 19:55

Darshan point isnt that why they occur, but whether they occur.
So when an Indian drone will crash, see how DDM will not try to understand the reasons that the crash has occurred due to, or that such things happen to other airforces also. But will use this to malign either DRDO, IAF or Govt etc.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 29 Mar 2009 16:20

Darshan point isnt that why they occur, but whether they occur.
So when an Indian drone will crash, see how DDM will not try to understand the reasons that the crash has occurred due to, or that such things happen to other airforces also. But will use this to malign either DRDO, IAF or Govt etc.

You are right.I don't trust media myself.I was just explaining from a technical viewpoint.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 06 Apr 2009 07:53

Xpost from R&D thread:

Nishant UAV Powered By Indigenous Wankel Rotary Engine Takes Flight

The first ever indigenous Wankel Rotary engine, powering Nishant, the Unmanned Air Vehicle (UAV), took off from a World War II abandoned runway near a village eight kilometres from Kolar in Karnataka. The maiden flight of the indigenous Wankel engine of a UAV, which took off yesterday morning, climbed to an altitude of 1.8 km effortlessly before cruising for 35 minutes.

The air vehicle was recovered safely at the intended place at a dried-up lake after a total flight duration of 40 minutes, a defence press release said here today. The event signifies achievements in many categories: It is the first time that a Wankel engine has been developed within the country and UAV flown with an indigenous engine.

The engine, a Wankel Rotary type, was a developmental project, which originated at the DRDO through VRDE, Ahmednagar, and was jointly designed and developed by NAL, a CSIR laboratory, VRDE, Ahmednagar, and ADE, Bangalore, it said. The Wankel engine is the first of its kind that was totally designed and developed in the country. Very few countries in the world have the capability to develop and master this technology, the release said.

This indigenous engine is expected to replace the present imported engine for Nishant.

Was this version of the Nishant launched using a catapult or conventional take-off using a semi-prepared airstrip? Recovery appears to have been parachute assisted.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 06 Apr 2009 12:00

Omar wrote:Was this version of the Nishant launched using a catapult or conventional take-off using a semi-prepared airstrip? Recovery appears to have been parachute assisted.

This is the wheeled version that we saw at AI - it was launched in conventional takeoff mode, and recovered using parachute. they will go for Conventional landing later.

The location was the British WW2 airfield near Kolar where LRDE has their radar testing facility, ADE has UAV facility, and where Saarangs practice. (Pics here)

sombhat · Post by **sombhat** » 06 Apr 2009 15:10

aditp wrote:But shouldnt the targetting system be improvised instead to detect and lock on to a low RCS target instead of increasing the RCS and making the Lakshya even more easier to shoot down.

It will be used to train pilots in shooting down enemy AWACS from long range

.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 06 Apr 2009 15:54

sombhat wrote:
aditp wrote:But shouldnt the targetting system be improvised instead to detect and lock on to a low RCS target instead of increasing the RCS and making the Lakshya even more easier to shoot down.
It will be used to train pilots in shooting down enemy AWACS from long range .

Or more likely, they want to increase Lakshya RCS so that the missiles will have to discriminate between large Lakshya RCS vs the low RCS towbody

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 07 Apr 2009 09:59

k prasad wrote:
Omar wrote:Was this version of the Nishant launched using a catapult or conventional take-off using a semi-prepared airstrip? Recovery appears to have been parachute assisted.
This is the wheeled version that we saw at AI - it was launched in conventional takeoff mode, and recovered using parachute. they will go for Conventional landing later.

The location was the British WW2 airfield near Kolar where LRDE has their radar testing facility, ADE has UAV facility, and where Saarangs practice. (Pics here)

Apparently not, if you go by livefist. But i am not sure to what extent its true.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 07 Apr 2009 21:28

krishnan wrote:Apparently not, if you go by livefist. But i am not sure to what extent its true.

Hmm... ToI seemed to suggest it was Conventional TO... however, Livefist may be right... I dont think DRDO would go for both a new engine AND CTO on the same flight.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 07 Apr 2009 22:11

Long back saw this video on Discovery/Nat Geo. Has this Nishant flight, with a Wankel engine, something to do with the engine shown in this video. Is Nishan't engine a development of the engine in the video.

Cheers....

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 19 Apr 2009 03:35

Stealthy Predator C unvelied

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 30 Apr 2009 02:05

Predator C Avenger:

Air Force Debuts New Jet-powered UAV
April 29, 2009 12:00 PM

Next-generation drone will be used in Iraq and Afghanistan

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 02 May 2009 07:18

Lockheed Martin to develop geostationary Solar Powered Airship