Indian Space Program Discussion

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Apr 2009 23:22

Thanks. Do you know the name of this proposed satellite?

Interesting that you mention geostationary satellite - I thought reconnaissance satellites are placed in low earth orbit due to resolution constraints.

Ramana: Yes - I did come across Seasat in Wikipedia but it seemed that the project was aborted. And surprisingly no follow-up satellites of the same type (Seasat was launched in the 70s). Unless its all going on hush-hush. There is also NOSS (Naval Ocean Surveillance System), which relies on detecting radio emissions from ships rather than direct observation.

Which begs the question - is "direct observation of oceans - optical or SAR", with sufficient resolution a fundamentally difficult technological problem? I'd think so (though I dont know why), given how little has been accomplished on this front and also how little open source literature exists on this topic.

Also, you may want to check the following out - one of the links from the Wikipedia article on Seasat:

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/11/world ... wanted=all

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Apr 2009 00:24

Thanks. Do you know the name of this proposed satellite?

Interesting that you mention geostationary satellite - I thought reconnaissance satellites are placed in low earth orbit due to resolution constraints.

The name escapes my mind, but it has been talked about all across in the media too. The weakness of polar orbits is its repeat periods of a few days, if you want to look only at a particular location versus the whole globe. For disaster recovery with faster cycle times on refresh rate of imagery to do comparison of pre-event and post-event geostationary is better. You can sacrifice the large swath width of polar satellites if you are interested say in coastal zones only. That is where the military implications also begin if it is done at spatial resolutions less than 100m.

Which begs the question - is "direct observation of oceans - optical or SAR", with sufficient resolution a fundamentally difficult technological problem? I'd think so (though I dont know why), given how little has been accomplished on this front and also how little open source literature exists on this topic.

For SAR it is better, but still the signal reflectance from the ocean in optical band is much much less than reflectance from land....ocean is mostly dark in contrast with land in the optical band. The atmosphere interferes badly and contributes a lot to the signal...hence the challenge...very fundamental...no way around it.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Apr 2009 00:33

ramana wrote:India needs an ocean sat as it needs to monitor the Monsoon as it develops.

KALPANA(METSAT) is already there for that purpose. There will be follow-on to it for sure in the future.

Interesting summary again of Indian achievements by Jayaraman.
http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/dec252007/1779.pdf

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 02 Apr 2009 05:41

A krish wrote:India will launch Cartosat-3 in 2011 with a resolution of 0.3 m only matched by US spy satellites.

p_saggu wrote:It has to be a chaiwala. There is no such info on open source or we'd have known.

Source

2011-12--------CARTOSAT-3~ 600 kgs (Co-passenger with Resourcesat-3)---------PAN 0.3 m resolution, 6 km swath ---Suitable for cadastral and infrastructure mapping and analysis

2014-15---------CARTOSAT-4 ~ 600 kgs---------PAN 0.3 m resolution, with stereo capability; 1m MX; TIR--------Suitable very large scale mapping for cadastral and infrastructure mapping and analysis.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Apr 2009 07:15

Remote-sensing satellites usually circle the Earth at a height of a few hundred kilometres. ISRO plans to put a Cartosat-type camera on a satellite that will be placed in geostationary orbit at a distance of about 36,000 km. In this orbit, the satellite matches the Earth’s rotation and therefore appears stationary from the ground. Stationed over India, the ‘Geo-HR Imager’ (as the satellite has been named) would be able to take images of the country and neighbouring regions whenever needed. By contrast, an orbiting satellite would be able to image the ground only when it flies overhead, which could be after a few days or even weeks depending on its orbit. Geo-HR Imager could therefore significantly aid disaster management efforts. Its imagery would also provide inputs for natural resources management. ISRO has currently scheduled the satellite for launch during 2010-2011.

http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/28/stories ... 471000.htm

BTW, South Korea is planning a geostationary ocean color imager for launch sometime this year. This will be a first attempt by any so far for this kind of an application.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 02 Apr 2009 07:24

Bade wrote:
Remote-sensing satellites usually circle the Earth at a height of a few hundred kilometres. ISRO plans to put a Cartosat-type camera on a satellite that will be placed in geostationary orbit at a distance of about 36,000 km. In this orbit, the satellite matches the Earth’s rotation and therefore appears stationary from the ground. Stationed over India, the ‘Geo-HR Imager’ (as the satellite has been named) would be able to take images of the country and neighbouring regions whenever needed. By contrast, an orbiting satellite would be able to image the ground only when it flies overhead, which could be after a few days or even weeks depending on its orbit. Geo-HR Imager could therefore significantly aid disaster management efforts. Its imagery would also provide inputs for natural resources management. ISRO has currently scheduled the satellite for launch during 2010-2011.
http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/28/stories ... 471000.htm

hats off to the reporter....

world hasn't yet developed such cameras yet to click 36000km away....
we dont even have radars working gud with that ranges and let alone cameras

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Apr 2009 08:01

See what the resolution will be for a Cartosat caemrs in 36000 km orbit. Most likelt in kms .Might be good enough if you are worried about disasters.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Apr 2009 08:06

Korean GOCI

Spatial resolution at 500m for Ocean Color and 1km for MET products from the link above. The last slide shows the instrument picture.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 02 Apr 2009 09:47

ramana wrote:See what the resolution will be for a Cartosat caemrs in 36000 km orbit. Most likelt in kms .Might be good enough if you are worried about disasters.

Nop it will have much better resolution.

The 0.3 meter resolution is from 800km altitude. The resolution will scale inversely proportional to distance. Thus at 36,000 Km Geo Sat orbit the resolution will be 13.5 meter. But also note that at GSO the satellite will not have revisit frequency constrain (IIRC SSO has revisit freq of 5 days, GSO it will have real time observation capability), as well not require additional fuel for off-bore surveillance.

And mind you the 0.3m resolution flight tested on another craft before Cartosat went up in space, many years pased before Cartosat went up to space and its resolution reported to be sub-meter. One can only guess what was the real resolution on Cartosat, and further what will be the real resolution when next Cartosat is parked in GSO

So, run it may but for TSPA and its jihadies :

"Bakray Ki maa kab tak khair manaygee?"
- Loosely translated to:
  How long can the mother of a lamb wish away death of its progeny?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Apr 2009 10:42

Me thinks the Geo-HR satellite besided taking images , should also serve the dual role of EW systems.

It bloody has to be a Hubble Telescope type to take useful images from Geo orbit.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 02 Apr 2009 13:56

Consulting some of my radar notes from 1 yr ago, I noticed some notes taht i'd taken that seem to make more sense now -

1. A SAR is being developed by LRDE - will be used on RISAT, and is based on C-band TR module based Phased array technology.

2. A C-band space based radar was to be launched "next year" (ie 2008), with more radars in other bands being developed later on.

3. SAC, Ahmedabad is working on a C-band radar for disaster management, esp for flood detection.

I do not know if 1 and 2 are the same (pt 1 came from a different talk).

Hope this may help answer some riddles... and hopefully it does set straight the question about the RISAT's origins.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 02 Apr 2009 16:37

I would think that IR imagery from geostationary orbit would also be a priority (detection of missile launches from Pakistan and Occupied Tibet).

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 03 Apr 2009 04:26

India plans to test space shuttle in next 12 months

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Apr 2009 09:08

ISRO flooded with applications for new recruits

Recession-hit engineers aim for the moon

Divya Gandhi
— Photo: K. Murali Kumar

Bangalore: Until recently, the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) was waging a losing battle against the information technology (IT) sector, whose lucrative remunerations drew away the brightest among engineers and scientists. In a reversal of fortunes set off by a recession-hit job market, the space agency is now attracting young graduates by the droves.

Weary of the volatile private sector, and beguiled by the hype surrounding Chandrayaan’s success, over one lakh B.E and B.Tech graduates have applied for 300 vacant posts in the Scientist/Engineer starting-grade category, G. Madhavan Nair, Chairman of ISRO told The Hindu.This figure is twice that of the applications received last year which stood at approximately 50,000, he added.

ISRO advertised for 300 posts in the Scientist/Engineer category (comprising three disciplines: electronics, mechanical and computer science) in February. The applications came in between February 10, when the ad was placed, and the closing date March 12.

This flood of applications comes in the backdrop of retrenchment, pay cuts and an unofficial recruitment freeze across the IT industry over the last six months. Dr. Nair attributed this renewed interest in ISRO to other factors besides the global financial meltdown and the buzz around Chandrayaan.

These include a salary hike after the Sixth Pay Commission recommendations. “ISRO’s entry-level salary, including all allowances, is around Rs. 35,000 at the Bangalore office, which engineering and science graduates find as competitive as IT firms,” explained S. Satish, Director of Public Relations, ISRO.

“ISRO’s own performance-related incentive package has also been a draw,” said Dr. Nair. “And of course I’ve noticed that the launch of Chandrayaan-I has also created tremendous enthusiasm in schools and colleges around India,” he added.

However, the quantum of applications may not necessarily be a reflection of the competence level of candidates, said Dr. Nair. “There will be a rigorous screening process followed by a written exam,” he added. Eligibility of the candidate will depend upon several academic criteria.

After the initial screening of applications, candidates will be short-listed for a written test on April 26, said Mr. Satish.

“We expect to shortlist around 3,000 or 4,000 candidates,” he added. What remains to be seen, however, is how many of the new recruits stay on at ISRO if the financial crisis abates. Attrition at the space organisation was once notoriously high — in 2007, ISRO reportedly lost over 50 per cent of its 2006 recruitment to the private sector.

Hope ISRO cashes in when the depression is still on since the step-motherly treatment will resume once the IT scene returns to normal..

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 04 Apr 2009 07:46

Latest Images from Chandrayaan-1 Mission

(courtesy of ISRO and NASA)

India is in the centre of this image taken of the Earth by Chandrayaan-1

Yugandhar · Post by **Yugandhar** » 04 Apr 2009 09:13

Gerard
Post subject: Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

India plans to test space shuttle in next 12 months

Excuse me, but why would a 'Challenger like' shuttle land in the ocean???

Is this DDM for the SRE-2 mission??

How on earth could we complete a space shuttle in 12 months considering its complexity aand almost out of the blue?

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 04 Apr 2009 10:48

It's just an aerobody demonstrator.

Abhijit N · Post by **Abhijit N** » 04 Apr 2009 14:51

These include a salary hike after the Sixth Pay Commission recommendations. “ISRO’s entry-level salary, including all allowances, is around Rs. 35,000 at the Bangalore office, which engineering and science graduates find as competitive as IT firms

The initial salary has certainly improved ...but its the growth after that which is the problem....6 lakhs at most!

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/web1/08no ... onal.htm#3

....He, however, agreed that the salary growth had not been the same when compared with the industry....

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 04 Apr 2009 21:52

Gerard wrote:I would think that IR imagery from geostationary orbit would also be a priority (detection of missile launches from Pakistan and Occupied Tibet).

IMHO ground based radars and PAD/AAD is more than enough for missiles launched from Western Indian state of what is now known as Pakistan.

Yes missile launch from Occupied Tibet (yes that is the politically correct term) and south western China is a serious gap that need to be filled first. But the biggest need is to detect submarine launched missiles that comes from Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean, and that requires satellites based sensors.

A quote from my recent article: "Way To A Credible Deterrent, Indian Defense Review, 2009":

Detection
First and foremost is the authentication of the first strike- whether it really is nuclear, where it came from and who is responsible.

The first requires highly mobile units spread across the nation that can quickly sample the air to determine if a nuclear attack has occurred by using on-board equipment to analyze fallout residue. Analysis of the atomic signature of fissile nuclear material used in the attack will narrow down the nationality/pedigree of nuclear weapon.

An attack by challenger nation-state will very likely involve ballistic missile or air-cruising vehicle. Missile launch detection by a constellation of space bourn optical/IR sensors is a highly effective method to locate the launch point and source of nuclear missile. A compliment of 3 - 4 satellites in geo-synchronous orbits and 4 - 5 more satellite in medium earth orbit can reliably locate missile launch from land or sea that can also feed Indian ABM sensor network. These satellites of between 900 - 1,200 kg mass can serve other military functions (E.g. communication and ELINT). India has proven capability to build and lunch such satellites . Ground based surveillance radars that are part of ABM network along the perimeter of Indian border can also locate the launch location and determine the type of hostile missile. Submarine launched missiles also leave a tell tale acoustic signature during launch, and a global array of hydrophones will increase reliability in determining the source of nuclear attack. Detection and identification of small and/or low flying cruise missile or aircraft require interlocking grid of bi-static radars and conventional mono-static radars. Bi-static radars are strategic assets and not commercially available thus it warrants urgent indigenous development.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 05 Apr 2009 01:22

Launch of RISAT rescheduled

Hindu refuses to acknowledge RISAT is Indian

The RISAT, from Israel, is a remote-sensing satellite that can take pictures of the earth, day and night.

BTW could it have sumthin to do with the recent threat to ISRO as being reported?

too much of a conicidence for it to be a coincidence IMO

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 05 Apr 2009 21:55

ISRO chief gets Z category security

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 06 Apr 2009 00:08

Coming soon: ISRO’s ‘see-all’ radar imaging satellite.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 06 Apr 2009 02:59

Isro chief faces Lashkar threat

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 Apr 2009 06:28

Hiten wrote:Launch of RISAT rescheduled

Hindu refuses to acknowledge RISAT is Indian

Hiten, from the article posted by Vipul,

The brain of the 1,780-kg RISAT-1 is a C-band synthetic aperture radar (SAR) based on active phased array technology. ISRO has procured the SAR for RISAT-1 from Israel. “Except for the SAR that we procured, it is our satellite,” an official unwilling to be named said, meaning to distinguish it from the TecSAR/Polaris surveillance satellite that the space agency launched for Israel in January 2008.However, RISAT-2 will be fully indigenous and development work is in progress at the Space Applications Centre, the official said.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 06 Apr 2009 12:34

SSridhar wrote:
Hiten wrote:Launch of RISAT rescheduled

Hindu refuses to acknowledge RISAT is Indian
Hiten, from the article posted by Vipul,
The brain of the 1,780-kg RISAT-1 is a C-band synthetic aperture radar (SAR) based on active phased array technology. ISRO has procured the SAR for RISAT-1 from Israel. “Except for the SAR that we procured, it is our satellite,” an official unwilling to be named said, meaning to distinguish it from the TecSAR/Polaris surveillance satellite that the space agency launched for Israel in January 2008.However, RISAT-2 will be fully indigenous and development work is in progress at the Space Applications Centre, the official said.

Hmm... this contradicts what Varadarajan said in the talk that LRDE is developing a C-band, TR module based SAR for RISAT - this looks a lot like psyops to me.

k prasad wrote:Consulting some of my radar notes from 1 yr ago, I noticed some notes taht i'd taken that seem to make more sense now -

1. A SAR is being developed by LRDE - will be used on RISAT, and is based on C-band TR module based Phased array technology.

2. A C-band space based radar was to be launched "next year" (ie 2008), with more radars in other bands being developed later on.

3. SAC, Ahmedabad is working on a C-band radar for disaster management, esp for flood detection.

I do not know if 1 and 2 are the same (pt 1 came from a different talk).

Hope this may help answer some riddles... and hopefully it does set straight the question about the RISAT's origins.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 08 Apr 2009 15:46

India to launch spy satellite on April 20
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 374544.cms

"When we launched the Israeli (Tecsar) satellite, we found that it's a good satellite. Then we asked them to build one for us. It can penetrate through the clouds and take pictures even at night," the official said

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 10 Apr 2009 01:30

Russia and India Collaborate on Future Space Missions

According to Madhavan Nair, the Chairman of Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO):

“We are considering a manned space flight of our own. Russia has vast experience in man-controlled spaceflight, which we hope it will share with us to help the Indian space programme. We plan to perform the first Indian space flight on a Russian space vessel.”

As per the agreement, an Indian astronaut will first go on a space mission on a Russian spacecraft. An Indian-manned mission to space in 2015 will follow. ISRO and the Russian space agency, Roskosmos, will jointly build the spacecraft for the Indian manned mission and we will be redesigning the Soyuz space capsule of the Russian agency for our mission.”

rachel · Post by **rachel** » 10 Apr 2009 03:51

I am so frustrated reading this thread.. forgive my obtuseness.. but can someone authoritative tell me: RISAT 1 and 2.. which is which? Which one has Israeli inputs and which one is Indian. Which will be launched in April and which at end of year?

AND: difference between the two? In size, capacity, resolution?

AND : if anyone is really ambitious.. perhaps a comparison with Canada's RADARSAT 2.

I know, i know.. i'm asking a lot.. but i have been thru this thread and it is confusing and contradictory.

DDM isnt helping.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 10 Apr 2009 20:34

A small tidbit,

Chandrayaan and NASA's LRO will form a bistatic radar in a few weeks to search for ice

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 10 Apr 2009 20:58

rachel wrote:I am so frustrated reading this thread.. forgive my obtuseness.. but can someone authoritative tell me: RISAT 1 and 2.. which is which? Which one has Israeli inputs and which one is Indian. Which will be launched in April and which at end of year?

AND: difference between the two? In size, capacity, resolution?

AND : if anyone is really ambitious.. perhaps a comparison with Canada's RADARSAT 2.

I know, i know.. i'm asking a lot.. but i have been thru this thread and it is confusing and contradictory.

DDM isnt helping.

RISAT-2 is not actually completely built by Israel. It is providing the SAR for RISAT-2. It is almost a clone of TecSAR and weighs around 300 kg. It will be put into a 550 km LEO with 41 degree inclination. It will have a resolution of 1 m. It is the satellite that will be launched on April 20th.

RISAT-1 is the completely Indian built satellite. It has an indigenous SAR and weighs around 1780 kg. It has a resolution of 3m and can't be launched on the core-alone version of the PSLV. It will be launched by the end of the year. According to me it will be launched into SSO.

RADARSAT-2 which was launched in 2007 weighs around 2200 kg. It has an resolution of 3m as I know but some also claim it to be 1m. It has been launched into SSO.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Apr 2009 21:27

interesting weight comparison.

rachel · Post by **rachel** » 11 Apr 2009 05:15

Thanks for that info, and yes, looks like Israeli SAR-based bird is much much smaller in size (weight) .. Why is that?

Looks like RISAT 1 is very close /comparable to RADARSAT2.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 12 Apr 2009 22:00

Official blog of SEDS-Students for Exploration and Development of Space-India. It has some interesting posts.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 16 Apr 2009 04:06

UoP, ISRO to launch satellite for study on rice.

The Biophysics section of the Department of Physics of the University of Pune (UoP) has tied up with the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) to send a satellite named Space Recovery Experiment II (SRE -II) into space to study the effects of micro gravity on the production of rice.

The experiment is the brainchild of Pandit Vidyasagar, head of the biophysics section, and will be sent into space by ISRO. This is the first such satellite experiment to take place in the state. Addressing a news conference here on Wednesday, Vidyasagar said, “The experiment was pitched as part of the Space Capsule Recovery Experiment of ISRO and a proposal to that effect was sent. Our experiment was selected and ISRO will send this satellite in the last quarter of 2009.”

“The UoP proposal was one among those submitted by some of the most prestigious institutes in the country, including the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore as well as the University of Kerala. The expenses, which will be to the tune of Rs 75 to Rs 85 crore, will be borne by ISRO,” said Pramod Kale, an advisor to the UoP ISRO chair, who was also present at the news conference. After the proposal was made to ISRO, it took six to eight months for the tie-up to materialise.

The Biophysics department has conducted this experiment at its laboratory with an instrument called the clinostat, designed and developed by the laboratory. The instrument studies the effects of microgravity. This instrument creates conditions of microgravity as it is present in space. Speaking about the results of this experiment, Vidyasagar said, “The study carried out on the rice seeds showed that microgravity accelerated the growth of the crop.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 16 Apr 2009 16:50

http://www.samaylive.com/news/isro-gear ... 18180.html

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 17 Apr 2009 06:03

Jamal, at a minimum take the time to put a title for any links you post.

Spy satellite undergoing final stages of testing, integration

The Elephant is Ready to Race: Geospatial Data Initiatives and Perspectives from India - Part 1

arun · Post by **arun** » 17 Apr 2009 09:32

PSLV C-12 launch set for 6.45 AM on April 20th.

I hope DD News will carry a live telecast of the launch :

Isro to launch high-end satellite on Monday

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Apr 2009 18:58

RISAT will redefine Disaster Management

“Interpretation of data from this satellite is not easy as the data obtained are reflected and scattered, which make the process of reconstruction of an image very difficult. We will have to learn the process. Moreover, our primary intention behind launching RISAT is to have a better satellite system for disaster management. RISAT would make India self-dependent in the field of using satellite for disaster management, as it is capable of working in all weather conditions.

Oceansat II is expected to be launched by the end of June, Nair said. Oceansat I could take only coloured images but Oceansat II has a very powerful scatterometer that can collect data related to surface winds and wave heights.

Bhuvan, ISRO’s mapping tool using Indian satellites, is expected to start functioning in a month’s time, Nair said. He appealed to all the Indians to make use of Bhuvan to get data related to the Indian sub-continent. . . Bhuvan will show details up to 10 metres.

The Indian Railways system could soon be connected to the satellite system to handle disaster management in a quick and efficient way, said G Madhavan Nair, Chairman, Indian Space Research Organisation. . . India will have the GPS equipped trains by 2012, Nair said.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 18 Apr 2009 17:25

Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV-C12) to launch RISAT-2 and ANUSAT from SDSC SHAR, Sriharikota, India on April 20, 2009 at 6:45AM(IST) - ISRO

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Apr 2009 06:48

PSLV-C12 to put two satellites in orbit

Excerpts

RISAT-2 was procured from Israel and the heart of the satellite is the Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR). This would work in X-band, used for military applications, informed sources said.

The PSLV-C12 would use new avionics. “The on-board computer has been changed. They are using advanced, high-level language,” the sources said.

The mini-satellite carries a “store and forward payload.” Its secondary payloads are micro electro mechanical systems (MEMS), a MEMS gyroscope, a MEMS magnetometer and a satellite positioning system. . . Anusat will last a year. Its users will be the Madras Institute of Technology, Chennai; College of Engineering, Chennai; and Pune University.