Discussion on Indian Special Forces

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 09 Apr 2009 06:23

Surya,

The regiments don't make the call in raising more battalions (or demobbing existing battalions) - the MoD does, and therein lies the existential issue for the regiment(s).

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Apr 2009 09:10

Reg MP-- Not many people know that he had set up the Mumbai Police commandos.The government then started using them like chapraasis.

MP had made a woman constable shoot at a target while he was standing next to the target.This was to assuage her that he believed in her shooting skills.

The video about the training of the Maharashtra police is already posted in the other thread...

SG=Special Group?

caesar · Post by **caesar** » 09 Apr 2009 09:10

Its not that we havent lost SFmen before its only the fact that they patrol the most difficult of the terrain and are out for 3-4days at a stretch,since all the border patrols and posts lie at vantage points or comfortable locations and are the first tier of our security.They know that hw many terrorists have crossed over as nw they have BFSR's,they allow thgem to intrude then encircle them by cordoning off their escape roots by regular army n the SF men go in to finish.In a way its sad to loose SF men but they are so battle hardened that they are way above the rest .One of my relatives was embedded with the SF as a medic in mizo hills whn he was posted there,he told me hw these men attacked from beneath a hillock,movin up a hill n not losing men ,woooooo ,these SF hv to be really good then,at the end of the fight they had killed 14 nagas n captured 3.Well instead of ridiculing our SF or cryin abt their loss we shld pay homage to their bravery,hats off to them.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 09 Apr 2009 10:06

Rather than going for over costly overhyped weapons, it would be better to develop or train police personnel in some basic skills like aiming and zeroing of weapons. I wonder how many Mumbi police personnel can even zero their weapons. Let me guess - Zero!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 09 Apr 2009 12:00

caesar wrote:Its not that we havent lost SFmen before its only the fact that they patrol the most difficult of the terrain and are out for 3-4days at a stretch,since all the border patrols and posts lie at vantage points or comfortable locations and are the first tier of our security.They know that hw many terrorists have crossed over as nw they have BFSR's,they allow thgem to intrude then encircle them by cordoning off their escape roots by regular army n the SF men go in to finish.In a way its sad to loose SF men but they are so battle hardened that they are way above the rest .One of my relatives was embedded with the SF as a medic in mizo hills whn he was posted there,he told me hw these men attacked from beneath a hillock,movin up a hill n not losing men ,woooooo ,these SF hv to be really good then,at the end of the fight they had killed 14 nagas n captured 3.Well instead of ridiculing our SF or cryin abt their loss we shld pay homage to their bravery,hats off to them.

Ceaser,

May I correct you that it not only the SF who patrol the most difficult of terrains and others hibernate on posts, which are comfortable?

Every infantryman patrols and there is no selection of terrain by regiments or special skills.

I would like to put it for your consideration that a post which is at 13000 or more is hardly comfortable and snug.

Patrolling is a task for all infantry units and they do it in all types of terrain. Lolab is not a cakewalk, but it is not the 'hardest' of terrain. I can indicate many 'harder' terrain where infantry patrols. I have patrolled in the Lolab and I am not SF.

The tasks for patrolling is assigned as per necessity and requirement. Terrain plays no part in the assignment!

3 to 4 days is not the 'hardest' of times. There are LRPs (Long Range Patrol) that are over 10 days or more self contained!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Apr 2009 12:03

sum wrote:The video about the training of the Maharashtra police is already posted in the other thread...

SG=Special Group?

Yes. Probably one of the most secretive units IA has.....quite unlike the highly publicized 'secret' units of other nations such as SFOD-D

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Apr 2009 14:32

IIRC, the first ever Tavor pics in IA hands in Srinagar was with a SG guy...

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 09 Apr 2009 17:55

Pargha

you are right

Technically last I knew the MOD had only sanctioned the existing SF units. So I have not yet seen a MOD order sanctioning extra units. I have been trying to get from some sources but no luck yet. WOnder how the Paras decided on converting the Para to SF without an official MOD sanction???

Bottom line since mid 80s the SF has always wanted to be seperated from the Para. When 21 SF was raised there was an article in Blitz which brought this up.

But the PAra regiment has baulked at it and then in 2005 \2006 made it Para = SF mantra and hence the subsequnce nonsense that has followed. If that has been followed and I have not seen official reports on it (lets leave my sources aside ) THe men who made that decision have blood on their hands IMO. They are going to send out relatively untrained men who are going to be stamped SF and send them on stupid missions.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 09 Apr 2009 19:55

What is the reason for the high SF casualities recently ? 10 SF for 21 terrorists is an unacceptable ratio...is it that the terrorists are SSG ? Or is it that some of th standards on our side have bee diluted ?

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 09 Apr 2009 21:25

ramdas wrote:What is the reason for the high SF casualities recently ? 10 SF for 21 terrorists is an unacceptable ratio...is it that the terrorists are SSG ? Or is it that some of th standards on our side have bee diluted ?

Go through the discussions here. There is a possibility that SF has been diluted a little to get higher numbers or to convert more Paras to SF. However the level of training of terrorists has gone up greatly with more hardened terrorists coming over. Also the terrain they are operating on is not the easiest to fight.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Apr 2009 22:00

its about time we switched to laser designators and paveway enabled treatment of surrounded jehadis. these are no disgruntled civilians and certainly not 'misguided kashmiri youth'. maybe the terrain precludes it, but even a near miss might have the desired effect

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 09 Apr 2009 22:34

sum

that was not SG

that was RR (Cdo)

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 09 Apr 2009 22:38

whoa !!!! hold on please

Do not mix too seperate discussions.

The dilution of SF is one thing and it MAY impact on some missions BUT that has nothing to do with the casualties recently.

My friend was in touch throughout the firefight - it was not lack of skill or mistakes.

Things are constantly changing and the thing now is these very well trained jihadis.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 09 Apr 2009 22:44

Raja Bose wrote:
sum wrote:The video about the training of the Maharashtra police is already posted in the other thread...

SG=Special Group?
Yes. Probably one of the most secretive units IA has.....quite unlike the highly publicized 'secret' units of other nations such as SFOD-D

How secret is it if BR knows about it?

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 09 Apr 2009 22:50

ramdas wrote:What is the reason for the high SF casualities recently ? 10 SF for 21 terrorists is an unacceptable ratio...is it that the terrorists are SSG ? Or is it that some of th standards on our side have bee diluted ?

Check this article out, you might get some idea. The all new and improved terrorist at India's gates

There is a new enemy at the gate. Equipped with GPS systems, satellite phones, detailed maps, winter clothing and, of
course, top-notch weaponry. He is "well-trained and motivated" for a head-on confrontation with security forces. And he does not come alone or in small batches.

Ankit

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 09 Apr 2009 23:39

Regarding these very highly trained terrorists, they seem to be more like TSP SSG rather than TSP regulars. So, the time and effort required for training ought to be almost what it takes to train a SF soldier rather than a regular infantryman. Is this assessment correct ? I am trying to get an estimate regarding how many of these highly trained types TSP can churn out.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 10 Apr 2009 06:58

Kapil wrote:
Raja Bose wrote: Yes. Probably one of the most secretive units IA has.....quite unlike the highly publicized 'secret' units of other nations such as SFOD-D
How secret is it if BR knows about it?

I was referring to their missions onlee not the question of their existence

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 19 Apr 2009 17:31

Why is this being discussed here? From when have the BSF been considered as SF?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Apr 2009 17:58

Parijat Gaur wrote:Why is this being discussed here? From when have the BSF been considered as SF?

good point ! I've moved those posts.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 24 Apr 2009 10:00

Home Secy wants cameras in airplanes to combat hijackers

isnt this totally undoable?

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 26 Apr 2009 12:22

ramdas wrote:What is the reason for the high SF casualities recently ? 10 SF for 21 terrorists is an unacceptable ratio...is it that the terrorists are SSG ? Or is it that some of th standards on our side have bee diluted ?

I can think of two issues: 1) Army doesn't use helicopter gunship or artillery (air borne or otherwise) for counter insurgency. They seem to save these assets for wars at cost of soldiers lives. 2) Battlefield medicine isn't upto the mark yet. Americans these days save 90% of the soldiers who get injured. I doubt we are anywhere close to that number.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 26 Apr 2009 12:31

3) Unlike the Americans, IA is fighting on its own soil amongst its own people. Hence, blindly bombing terrorists to oblivion from 20000ft is not an option. When you come across reports of how US SF killed 100s of Taliban in battle, read carefully and you will find out that those 100s got killed by heavy air strikes called in by the US SF who lased the targets......not due to some superhuman gunplay by the SF foot soldiers. Unfortunately those tactics cannot be used if you are a professional army fighting amongst your own people, on your own soil.

4) Terrain is difficult and heavy forest cover, high altitude - you name it. (3) and (4) combined means it is a manpower intensive operation with numerous small unit actions.

5) Sometimes men die facing impossible odds - it is combat after all.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 26 Apr 2009 14:17

Video on Ghatak platoon.
Courtesy http://www.YouTube.com

keizer · Post by **keizer** » 28 Apr 2009 12:14

For our special forces we need to get:

KRISS .45 sub machine, the best in the world

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEex2UChBtw

AA-12 shotgun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnrizaO- ... re=related

XM-307
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPvjSYtr ... re=related

Firescout UAV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQvI4YWv ... re=related

Magpul Masada 5.56/7.62 capable assault rifle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJhPMIVgF6c

M-110 sniper rifle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3qQB4b4Pgo

CheyTac M200 Sniper System
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpRHdjBj ... re=related

Beowulf .50 Cal modified M-4 can be used on our exisisting arsenal of M-4s just need a conversion kit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CrUARlm ... re=related

LWRC M-6 5.56/6.8mm capable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVHLvtAr ... re=related

All these cool tools will help our soldier fight better.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 28 Apr 2009 12:42

^^^^ This isn't the speculative, Discovery channel-aided dreams thread... stick to SF plz... Keizer, plz do post ur above in the small arms thread...

P.S... are you the same Keizer from IDF???

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 28 Apr 2009 14:40

keizer! The name sounds familiar

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 29 Apr 2009 01:19

To Keizer,
Nearly all the weapon systems you mention are either in development or cancelled. Please stop mentioning any weapon you see on discovery channel.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Apr 2009 01:21

keizer is off BR, so don't expect replies from him/her/it.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 29 Apr 2009 07:24

^ AoA!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Apr 2009 09:27

Rahul M wrote:keizer is off BR, so don't expect replies from him/her/it.

You anti national! Desh Drohi!

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 02 May 2009 13:06

KiranM wrote:Video on Ghatak platoon.
Courtesy http://www.YouTube.com

When I see the Ghatak platoon composition, especially that of the Assault squad, it looks more like Fire Support capability than that of a true Assault capability.

As an aside, the fact that Ghataks go through the Commando course is heart warming. From that video I surmise the following;

1) Unconventional ops will no longer be the forte of just the Special Forces. SF can be used for more Deep Penetrative ops rather than just ahead of FEBA. Ghataks will take care of the latter. Required resources and support will be forthcoming from their parent Unit whcih will be deployed at the frontline.

2) Ghatak platoons will form a resource pool for SF to draw from.

3) Making of an SF involves clearing many capabilities or 'Schools'. So if a warrior does not clear Parachute School to get into SF, but has passed Commando School with flying colours, he can be assigned to a Ghatak platoon.

4) Lastly, there was this contention that commanders of conventional units did not appreciate manner/ method of application of special ops. And also that SF folks didnt understand that Special Ops is more to support and complement Conventional ops than supplement it.
I do not know about the latter feeling in India, but was prevalent in USSOCOM during Rumsfeld times. Better not let it grow along with the growth of our SF.
I believe Ghatak concept will bridge both camps of thought.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 12 May 2009 03:33

Anti-terror base to fortify capital

Learning a lesson from its unpreparedness to deal with the terror attack on Mumbai last year, the Indian government is setting up an operational base close to the capital where special forces, including the elite National Security Guard (NSG), will be housed.

The base is being established at a cost of $4 million at the Indian Air Force (IAF) station in Hindon near Ghaziabad and will also house fighter jets and military transport planes.

"Our fleet of newly acquired Super Hercules C-130Js will be based at Hindon, for which infrastructure is being set up there at the cost of $4 million. The fleet will be used for special operations," a senior IAF official told IANS on condition of anonymity.

India has last year purchased six Super Hercules C-130J military transport planes from the US firm Lockheed Martin under a $596 million deal. The six aircraft will be equipped for special operations.

The added advantage of the C-130J would be its ability to provide 'passive defence' - a platform for aerial refuelling, providing reinforcements and rapid deployment capabilities.

"The transport aircraft will be the backbone of anti-terror operations. The planes will be used for ferrying special forces and thus help cut down on the time taken to dispatch the troops," the official said.

The NSG is currently stationed at Manesar in Haryana. When their services are requisitioned, the special forces have to first reach Delhi airport by road and then take an available aircraft to travel to their destination - a time-consuming affair.

During the 26/11 Mumbai attacks, the NSG had to wait for a crucial one hour at the Palam air force station as no plane was available and an aircraft had to be requisitioned from Chandigarh. The terror strike, that traumatised the country, left at least 170 people dead.

The NSG at present does not have a dedicated aircraft.

"Apart from the Hindon base, the NSG is in talks with the IAF to get space at the Palam airport so that there is no delay in the dispatch of troops in times of emergency," the official added.

After the Mumbai terror attacks, the cabinet had approved setting up of NSG hubs in Mumbai, Kolkata, Chennai and Hyderabad for quick mobilisation of troops when needed.

The Hindon airbase will also have infrastructure for fighter jets. After the Mumbai attacks, three MiG 29s combat jets were flown to Hindon.

While the Hindon base has military aircraft, plans are on to make it a permanent station for fighter jets too with the heightened fear of more Mumbai-style terror attacks, officials said.

Last year, India purchased 18 Spyder surface-to-air missiles from Israel, some of which are likely to be deployed at the periphery of Delhi to protect high value assets.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 May 2009 09:29

Learning a lesson from its unpreparedness to deal with the terror attack on Mumbai last year, the Indian government is setting up an operational base close to the capital where special forces, including the elite National Security Guard (NSG), will be housed.

The base is being established at a cost of $4 million at the Indian Air Force (IAF) station in Hindon near Ghaziabad and will also house fighter jets and military transport planes.

"Our fleet of newly acquired Super Hercules C-130Js will be based at Hindon, for which infrastructure is being set up there at the cost of $4 million. The fleet will be used for special operations," a senior IAF official told IANS on condition of anonymity.

India has last year purchased six Super Hercules C-130J military transport planes from the US firm Lockheed Martin under a $596 million deal. The six aircraft will be equipped for special operations.

Good move, IMO though the aircraft unavailability scenario is over-exaggerated since the NSG had trained for the scenario with IAF pilots always at standby. The Delhi bottlenecks(traffic jam from Manesar to Palam) were of course a major issue

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 May 2009 00:20

Posting this here and in the Indian Army forum. An interesting blog read which sheds more light on the Kupwara encounter where we lost many of our SF. This is the first time I am hearing about "Headlines Today": does anyone know more about them or this author?

http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... ntid=41725

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 14 May 2009 07:26

He is Brig Sawant's son.

Brig Sawant was an Army Education Corps officer. He also used to do the commentary of the RD Parade.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 14 May 2009 23:27

Raj Malhotra wrote:Rather than going for over costly overhyped weapons, it would be better to develop or train police personnel in some basic skills like aiming and zeroing of weapons. I wonder how many Mumbi police personnel can even zero their weapons. Let me guess - Zero!

Malhotra Sahib
This is a ploy by Tut-poonjiye state politicians to get security cover of highly trained police. This force if ever come into existence will become useless within 2 years.

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 15 May 2009 08:42

This is a ploy by Tut-poonjiye state politicians to get security cover of highly trained police...

Not quite...at least that's not the way it works in Tamil Nadu. There's been continuity between all the changes in parties. TN continues to keep its police SF very well armed and trained, and they are a highly motivated bunch. Check this picture out http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... t_team.jpg. The current director of the Nat'l Police Academy is the guy who nailed down Veerappan. The Greyhounds too are v.well equipped and trained. There's enough police in the country to take on any damn terrorist insurgency, as long as they are used in active mode.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 15 May 2009 20:27

kaangeya ji
Picture is awesome. It seems everyone is doing things rajnikant style. A loaded weapon stuck in belt...WTH. If they want to have a quick draw then why not buy holsters that wrap around thighs give a extremely quick draw access.

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 15 May 2009 22:45

Baljeet,

A loaded weapon stuck in belt...WTH.

You can see that the Glocks are stripped down - it's clear it's just the frame, not the slide etc., The stens, I am not sure. This is a posed picture, but with interesting detail. Note the grip with the index finger out of the trigger guard, held straight. Both men and women in fatigues, looking smart, lean and mean. And the team leader doesn't look like a slouch either, reminds me of the legendary Walter Devaram IPS, whom I have once travelled with >15 years ago when he was already in his late fifties and looked like a well muscled thug! And of course the boots - totally seamless, no doubt with with hard grip any surface soles etc., It's the little details.

This time I have been looking at the pictures of the election security and am impressed with the amount of hardware - the sheer variety and the numbers is impressive. The uniformed forces must first protect the people and then their representatives. While the forces have rarely, if ever, been in doubt, it is the representatives who have messed around. This time I sense some change, and howsoever small it is, so much the better.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 15 May 2009 23:55

kangeya
I agree there is a fresh air of small changes through out the nation. It is a healthy sign, hope it sustains the momentum.