Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote:Before the invasions, they would call themselves the citizens under that raja or ruler and as Hindus not Indians. .

Ramana do you have any references to back this claim? I think people would refer to themselves by their village and community as Indians have always done.

Note that even if it is true - it means that people were citizens of different states depending on who the monarch was.

The word "Hindu" came into common use only in the 1800s.
JwalaMukhi
BRFite
Posts: 1635
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Praja - ? What does this word exactly mean and what it meant in earlier times. Surely, that means something.
Nagarik - ? Vaasi - ? Bharath vaasi ?
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:
ramana wrote:Before the invasions, they would call themselves the citizens under that raja or ruler and as Hindus not Indians. .

Ramana do you have any references to back this claim? I think people would refer to themselves by their village and community as Indians have always done.

Note that even if it is true - it means that people were citizens of different states depending on who the monarch was.

The word "Hindu" came into common use only in the 1800s.
Read the sathyanarayana puja katha
Abhi_G
BRFite
Posts: 715
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 21:42

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Abhi_G »

Shiv, can you read what is written by looking at the script?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uttama_coin.png

It is a coin from the Chola empire (900 C.E). The word "Uttam Chol" is written in Nagari script and it is the current Bangla script. How come Bangla script appears in the Chola empire? It is till unknown why that particular Chola emperor used nagari script. It may be a personal fascination of that ruler but it also points to the fact that signs, scripts and languages intermingled and the sense of *separateness* was not very acute, even if it would have been existent to a certain degree. To be fair, a certain degree of local consciousness will always be there.

But the bigger picture is that the cultural glue (inspired by the Sanatan Dharma) that we are talking about was always there in Bharatvarsha and that is still working now out since ancient times. I think this cultural framework is very important for unity. Colonialists, western historians and sociologists do not identify this maybe out of ignorance or conviction or agenda whatever (actually supress). To be fair we also have local disgruntled agents that work against the bigger unity. However, it is clear that this multiple *nation* thing has a specific agenda in retarding national unity. The more we use it even sub consciously, the more self goals we make.
Keshav
BRFite
Posts: 633
Joined: 20 Sep 2007 08:53
Location: USA

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Keshav »

Abhi_G wrote: But the bigger picture is that the cultural glue (inspired by the Sanatan Dharma) that we are talking about was always there in Bharatvarsha and that is still working now out since ancient times. I think this cultural framework is very important for unity. Colonialists, western historians and sociologists do not identify this maybe out of ignorance or conviction or agenda whatever (actually supress). To be fair we also have local disgruntled agents that work against the bigger unity. However, it is clear that this multiple *nation* thing has a specific agenda in retarding national unity. The more we use it even sub consciously, the more self goals we make.
It might be easier to say that multiple nations exist but overlap each other many times which makes defining their "borders" impossible.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:
I agree with the rest of the post, but put it to you that the single most difficult fact to put across to Indians, especially on this board is that foreigners (and IMO, fractal recursivity) have played a huge role in the political unification of India. Cognitive dissonance kicks in to stop the thought.
Always when you know that foriegner is near us that we become aware of "us".
This is true of all nationalities and countries.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

Keshav wrote:

It might be easier to say that multiple nations exist but overlap each other many times which makes defining their "borders" impossible.
State borders are a new concept only 100-300 years old.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by shiv »

Abhi_G wrote:
But the bigger picture is that the cultural glue (inspired by the Sanatan Dharma) that we are talking about was always there in Bharatvarsha and that is still working now out since ancient times..
Not disputing this.

But there was NO nation state and there was no common political consensus in having a nation state.

Why do we have that now?
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:
Why do we have that now?
Because of Modernism.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by shiv »

Acharya wrote: Read the sathyanarayana puja katha
But this does not prove anything about what people identified themselves as across India. Can you quote the relevant passages? I have had that read to me on and off several times but seem to have missed this - so kindly enlighten
Keshav
BRFite
Posts: 633
Joined: 20 Sep 2007 08:53
Location: USA

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Keshav »

Acharya wrote:
Keshav wrote:

It might be easier to say that multiple nations exist but overlap each other many times which makes defining their "borders" impossible.
State borders are a new concept only 100-300 years old.
I was referring to nations in the sense of "a group of people who are aware of their unique culture". Through those lens, we have many nations - the Tamil nation, the Punjabi nation, etc. but all these nations together only have one state - the GoI.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by shiv »

Acharya wrote:
shiv wrote:
Why do we have that now?
Because of Modernism.
In other words, something has changed from the past. What we see today is not a blind an unchanged continuum of the ethos of Bharata desha of 3000 years ago.

That is exactly the point I have been trying to get at.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

Keshav wrote:
I was referring to nations in the sense of "a group of people who are aware of their unique culture". Through those lens, we have many nations - the Tamil nation, the Punjabi nation, etc. but all these nations together only have one state - the GoI.
.
Lot of these identity are also new and recent including the langauage identity. Refer to the post by Abhi
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:
Why do we have that now?
Because of Modernism.

In other words, something has changed from the past. What we see today is not a blind an unchanged continuum of the ethos of Bharata desha 300 years ago.
This modernism and nation state are really fake and not real in the course of history.
People will form their nation based on shared common values(Dharma) and history(Puranas)
Keshav
BRFite
Posts: 633
Joined: 20 Sep 2007 08:53
Location: USA

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Keshav »

Acharya wrote:
Keshav wrote:
I was referring to nations in the sense of "a group of people who are aware of their unique culture". Through those lens, we have many nations - the Tamil nation, the Punjabi nation, etc. but all these nations together only have one state - the GoI.
.
Lot of these identity are also new and recent including the langauage identity. Refer to the post by Abhi
Post noted. It just makes constructing Indian history all the more difficult. It makes me wonder if Western historians have screwed up on their own history since this certainly could have been the case in Europe outside of Rome and throughout the Dark Ages, Renaissance, Industrial Revolution, etc.
Acharya wrote:This modernism and nation state are really fake and not real in the course of history.
People will form their nation based on shared common values(Dharma) and history(Puranas)
Could you explain further?

Many people argue that the nation itself is fake because it does not exist naturally. That recognition and pride in something (language, heroes, common values) is created artificially by elites and higher ups, not something the common person comes to realize on their own.

As such, a nation is not said to technically exist until the people say they belong to a nation. For example, we can trace the history of a given group of people with a specific set of common values, cultural mores, etc. but we cannot technically call them a nation unless the people rally behind it and act as a unit, act in favor it, or in general recognize through laws, celebrations, literature, or even political parties, otherwise it is not considered to exist.
Last edited by Keshav on 16 Apr 2009 21:49, edited 1 time in total.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:

Thanks for the correction. That is what I meant.

What I meant was that your post is incorrect and you are asking for correct answer from others
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

Keshav wrote: It just makes constructing Indian history all the more difficult.

India is a civilization and one of the oldest.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by shiv »

Acharya wrote:
shiv wrote:
Why do we have that now?
Because of Modernism.

In other words, something has changed from the past. What we see today is not a blind an unchanged continuum of the ethos of Bharata desha 300 years ago.
This modernism and nation state are really fake and not real in the course of history.
People will form their nation based on shared common values(Dharma) and history(Puranas)
Fake or not only time will tell.

But what is very real is the fact that a particular state of affairs existed 3000 years ago - let me call that Condition A

A different state of affairs exists today - and let me call that Condition B

Whether condition B is fake or transient does not alter the fact that India has moved from Condition A to Condition B. It has not remained static or unchanged.

if we can accept that India has changed over time, why is it so difficult to accept (for some people) that a people who had no concept of unity and nation state 2000 years ago (Condition A) now have a well developed sense of nation state and recognise the value of unity (Condition B)

If you think Indian unity and India as a nation state is fake and transient that is fine. Maybe you are anticipating Condition C - Talibanization as brihaspati has done. What will happen will happen.
Keshav
BRFite
Posts: 633
Joined: 20 Sep 2007 08:53
Location: USA

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Keshav »

Acharya wrote:
Keshav wrote: It just makes constructing Indian history all the more difficult.

India is a civilization and one of the oldest.
Civilization is probably the best word to use, but then we dragged into what Indian civilization is.

Is it Hindu civilization at its core with Muslim civilization, tribal civilization, Buddhist civilization added to it or is like an amoeba that just combines with the other. This is ultimately a circular argument. We've been here many times before and we haven't come to a consensus.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

Keshav wrote: It makes me wonder if Western historians have screwed up on their own history since this certainly could have been the case in Europe outside of Rome and throughout the Dark Ages, Renaissance, Industrial Revolution, etc.
This is true. But is a topic for a different forum.
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... howforum=2
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by shiv »

Acharya wrote:
shiv wrote:

Thanks for the correction. That is what I meant.

What I meant was that your post is incorrect and you are asking for correct answer from others
And I have shown my gratitude to you for correcting me. .
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Rahul M »

shiv ji, it disappoints me no end that you are using a strawman argument.

NOONE is arguing that India was a nation state, but it definitely was a nation.

the two are NOT same, the Indian nation state we are citizens of was born in 1947, the Indian nation has been there for thousands of years.
A nation is a body of people who share a common history, culture, language or ethnic origin, who typically inhabit a particular country or territory.[1] The development and conceptualisation of the nation is closely related to the development of modern industrial states and nationalist movements in Europe in the 18th and 19th centuries,[2] although nationalists would trace nations into the past along an uninterrupted lines of historical narrative.[3]

Benedict Anderson argued that nations were "imagined communities" because "the members of even the smallest nation will never know most of their fellow-members, meet them, or even hear of them, yet in the minds of each lives the image of their communion", and traced their origins back to vernacular print journalism, which by its very nature was limited with linguistic zones and addressed a common audience.[4]

Though "nation" is also commonly used in informal discourse as a synonym for state or country, a nation is not identical to a state. Countries where the social concept of "nation" coincides with the political concept of "state" are called nation states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

Keshav wrote:
Acharya wrote:This modernism and nation state are really fake and not real in the course of history.
People will form their nation based on shared common values(Dharma) and history(Puranas)
Could you explain further?

Many people argue that the nation itself is fake because it does not exist naturally. That recognition and pride in something (language, heroes, common values) is created artificially by elites and higher ups, not something the common person comes to realize on their own.

As such, a nation is not said to technically exist until the people say they belong to a nation. For example, we can trace the history of a given group of people with a specific set of common values, cultural mores, etc. but we cannot technically call them a nation unless the people rally behind it and act as a unit, act in favor it, or in general recognize through laws, celebrations, literature, or even political parties, otherwise it is not considered to exist.
What is the difference between nation and a state.
That will give the answer
Keshav
BRFite
Posts: 633
Joined: 20 Sep 2007 08:53
Location: USA

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Keshav »

Acharya wrote: What is the difference between nation and a state.
That will give the answer
Rahul M posted the difference above, but I'm still not sure what you're point was. Maybe it was just the grammar that was confusing. Could you just rephrase it?
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by shiv »

Rahul M wrote:shiv ji, it disappoints me no end that you are using a strawman argument.

NOONE is arguing that India was a nation state, but it definitely was a nation.

the two are NOT same, the Indian nation state we are citizens of was born in 1947, the Indian nation has been there for thousands of years.
Yes, and so what? And what strawman?

If it is a nation state today what differences do you anticipate if it was not a nation state yesterday as long as a sense of nation was there.

But that ancient sense of nation did not amount to a nation state.

India's future stability is going to hinge on its status as a nation state with the jealous guarding of boundaries that a nation state demands. This nebulous "ancient Indian nation" (whose existence I do not dispute) did nothing to actually protect any geographical boundaries. The nation state will have to do what this ancient India nation never did.

In short we are going to have to depend on the nation state for the future. the fact that there was a sense of nation in the past is just an added bonus.
Abhi_G
BRFite
Posts: 715
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 21:42

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Abhi_G »

Is "Desh" a Sanskrit word? How did it originate?

How did the concept/usage of "Bharatvarsha" originate? I have some answers for the latter but not with respect to "Desh".

Added later:
India's future stability is going to hinge on its status as a nation state with the jealous guarding of boundaries that a nation state demands. This nebulous "ancient Indian nation" (whose existence I do not dispute) did nothing to actually protect any geographical boundaries. The nation state will have to do what this ancient India nation never did.
Shiv, I do not see any contradiction in the issue of protection. But it would wrong to say that the nation did not protect it boundaries - Greeks, Sakas, Huns. We failed after that. For the future, yes I completely agree with you. We have to guard our boundaries jealously.
Last edited by Abhi_G on 16 Apr 2009 22:11, edited 1 time in total.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Rahul M »

keshav wrote:....... foreigners probably did more for the political unification of India than Indians ever did, but ultimately, it was a combination of both. Obviously, the problem hasn't been completely solved.
keshav, I think this statement is correct but IMHO this phenomenon took place much earlier than your post conveyed.

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that the islamic invasion or the european colonialists were not the first group of foreigners in India.
.................................
here is how I think the original shared identity of Indianness developed, (among other factors)
as long as Indians were isolated from the world outside the sub-continent, they had only other Indian communities to compare against and in spite of the many common traits, the small differences in culture and customs would have been glaring in their eyes.

all this changes with the exposure to foreign culture of customs, the so-called mlechchas, their cultures were promptly identified as alien and different and in this light, the differences between the various Indian communities might not have felt so glaring after all !

IOW, you need the presence of a widely different colour, say blue, to understand that two shades of orange are not that different after all !

you are of course correct that the foreign rule over India gave rise to the awareness and movements that eventually led to the formation of the Indian nation state.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by shiv »

Abhi_G wrote: Shiv, I do not see any contradiction in the issue of protection. But it would wrong to say that the nation did not protect it boundaries - Greeks, Sakas, Huns. We failed after that. For the future, yes I completely agree with you. We have to guard our boundaries jealously.
I am saying that it failed because the sense of nation that existed did not amount to a unifying doctrine of protecting lands from "Kashmir to Kanyakumari"

As long as access to these lands was possible - nobody really gave a damn whether there were Greeks there or sakas there. It was only when the concepts of "nation state" was implemented (by the Brits) that the Indians of India realised that they need to unite into a political unit called a nation state. The earlier "Indian nation" was useless for protecting the rights, property and culture of all Indians.
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by svinayak »

shiv wrote:
As long as access to these lands was possible - nobody really gave a damn whether there were Greeks there or sakas there. It was only when the concepts of "nation state" was implemented (by the Brits) that the Indians of India realised that they need to unite into a political unit called a nation state. The earlier "Indian nation" was useless for protecting the rights, property and culture of all Indians.

It was the same in continental Europe, Asiatic landmass, China etc.

British and colonial powers started creating STATES out the areas which they were controlling, or defeated monachies such as Marattas, Sikh or defeated empires such as Ottoman Empire etc.

Indian freedom movement gave that shared history for the people to unite into the state.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Rahul M »

shiv wrote:
Rahul M wrote:shiv ji, it disappoints me no end that you are using a strawman argument.

NOONE is arguing that India was a nation state, but it definitely was a nation.

the two are NOT same, the Indian nation state we are citizens of was born in 1947, the Indian nation has been there for thousands of years.
If it is a nation state today what differences do you anticipate if it was not a nation state yesterday as long as a sense of nation was there.
not sure what you mean by this, a clarification would be welcome.
.....................................
And what strawman?
this, for example.
shiv wrote: There is a persistent myth doing the rounds on BRF that India was some sort of coherent nation state 1000 and more years ago.
.......................................
But that ancient sense of nation did not amount to a nation state.
no one said it did. the current definition of nation state is a modern concept and nobody disputed that.
this, is a strawman.
......................................
India's future stability is going to hinge on its status as a nation state with the jealous guarding of boundaries that a nation state demands.
no dispute there.
This nebulous "ancient Indian nation" (whose existence I do not dispute)
actually you did .
viz.
In terms of religion and politics, Bharata desha was always multiple nations.
one would think that the numerous examples of empires spanning across much of the sub-continent would nullify the word "always", but let's ignore it.
religion ?? :eek: multiple 'nations' (not nation states) in terms of religion, of all things ?? :shock:
There is a persistent myth doing the rounds on BRF that India was some sort of coherent nation state 1000 and more years ago. It was not. It was a pool of similar cultures nothing more.
You can have Bharat that was multiple nations in the past..............
...................................
did nothing to actually protect any geographical boundaries. The nation state will have to do what this ancient India nation never did.
it did in fact, admittedly not always successfully, the wars against the greeks and the huns come to mind.
In short we are going to have to depend on the nation state for the future. the fact that there was a sense of nation in the past is just an added bonus.
on the contrary it is the idea of a nation that was instrumental in the formation and much more importantly, subsequent survival of this nation state.
SRoy
BRFite
Posts: 1938
Joined: 15 Jul 2005 06:45
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by SRoy »

Acharya wrote:
shiv wrote:
As long as access to these lands was possible - nobody really gave a damn whether there were Greeks there or sakas there. It was only when the concepts of "nation state" was implemented (by the Brits) that the Indians of India realised that they need to unite into a political unit called a nation state. The earlier "Indian nation" was useless for protecting the rights, property and culture of all Indians.

It was the same in continental Europe, Asiatic landmass, China etc.

British and colonial powers started creating STATES out the areas which they were controlling, or defeated monachies such as Marattas, Sikh or defeated empires such as Ottoman Empire etc.

Indian freedom movement gave that shared history for the people to unite into the state.
Not entirely true...Shiv's statement.

During the Greek invasion, the forces of Magadha were about to assist Porus. The news of impending Magadha military reinforcement was one of the factor for Alexander's retreat.

There are a few other examples in the military history thread in MILTECH forum. I posted them couple of years ago.

A general concept is laid down in the Rigveda itself. The Puru tribe which is stated to defeat the four others were described to occupy central position with respect to geography. Those who retain the power in central territories went on to define future path of the civilization. Frontier territories need not be under the central power, as long as a sense of cultural affinity pervades.

Mackinder discovered this fundamental concept thousands of years later.

The defintion of Aryavrata reflects the ancient thinking of a geopolitical entity, with a dominant central power.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by RamaY »

Keshav wrote:Civilization is probably the best word to use, but then we dragged into what Indian civilization is.

Is it Hindu civilization at its core with Muslim civilization, tribal civilization, Buddhist civilization added to it or is like an amoeba that just combines with the other. This is ultimately a circular argument. We've been here many times before and we haven't come to a consensus.
Pls go thru http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 86#p653386
himadri
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 24
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 10:53

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by himadri »

Abhi_G wrote:Shiv, can you read what is written by looking at the script?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uttama_coin.png

It is a coin from the Chola empire (900 C.E). The word "Uttam Chol" is written in Nagari script and it is the current Bangla script. How come Bangla script appears in the Chola empire?
The eastern nagari script which is the precursor of bengali script was once widely used to write sanskrit.
Abhi_G
BRFite
Posts: 715
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 21:42

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Abhi_G »

Thanks Himadri.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Rahul M »

^^^
correct, but the interesting bit is that this script was being used in a classical imperial chola coin, when the local script for tamil was in widespread use !!
samuel
BRFite
Posts: 818
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:52

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by samuel »

If there were no need for a nation-state, I don't see why the Indian nation will need to create it to exist. If there were no Indian nation, I don't see how a nation-state can sustain by magic marker. There are a few examples of this kind, but they have mostly risen by invaders managing to wipe out what existed.

S
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Rahul M »

samuel wrote:If there were no need for a nation-state, I don't see why the Indian nation will need to create it to exist. If there were no Indian nation, I don't see how a nation-state can sustain by magic marker. There are a few examples of this kind, but they have mostly risen by invaders managing to wipe out what existed.

S
thanks for presenting my thoughts in a nut-shell !

re: bolded part, also internal disturbances, UK, for example or pre 1971 pakistan.

IOW, a nation is a much more durable idea than a state and only a state based upon a nation can hope to survive and prosper. without a nation at its core, the dismantling of a nation state is a matter of time.

one disclaimer though, a string of industrious govts can actually form and sustain the idea of a nation after the state has been formed.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by Sanku »

^^^ Wow
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

Post by brihaspati »

Some of the posts in this thread reminded me of similar words I have seen somewhere before, but couldn't place them immediately. Fished this out from my old notes: [Just a warning : not saying my own words for a change - please don't take this as a show of my erudition, even if you do please don't find it sweet :) ]

Sir John Strachey in 1880, “This is the first and foremost thing to learn about India that there is not, and never was an India, or even any country of India possessing, according to European ideas, any sort of unity – physical, political, social and religious, no Indian nation, no ‘people of India’, of which we hear so much”. [Scholars like Sir John Seeley saw in Brahmanism the seed of Indian nationalism though (Expansion of England, London, 1882)].

Rajnarain Bose (1826-1899), Nabagopal Mitra, Bankim Chandra Chatterji (1838-1894) were the earliest "dissenters". MKG from SA, in 1909, wrote in “Hind Swaraj”: “The English have taught us that we were not a nation before and it will require centuries before we became one nation. This is without foundation. We were one nation before they came to India. One thought inspired us. Our mode of life was the same. It was because we were one nation that they were able to establish one kingdom.” (M. K. Gandhi-Hindu Dharma, Ahmedabad, 1950, p. 56).

The same year, young historian Radha Kumud Mookerji read a paper before the Dawn Society, Calcutta, presenting his "scientific" findings on the "Fundamental Unity of India". An expanded form of this essay was published from London in 1913. Bipin Chandra Pal wrote in 1912, in his monthly journal, ‘The Hindu Review’ under the title ‘Hindu Nationalism: What It Stands For’ followed by an other article ‘Nationalism and Politics’ in May 1913. His thesis was that European nationalism, being isolationist and materialist in nature was anti-humanity, while the Indian nationalism represented a higher stage of group consciousness and was a positive step towards human brotherhood and spirituality. In his own words, Hindu nationalism stood for – “God, Humanity and the Motherland” (B.C. Pal, Nationality and Empire, Calcutta, 1916. pp. 22-48 and pp. 73-112).

Sukumar Dutt wrote “A mind free from western conception of nationality is absolutely necessary to comprehend the problems of Indian Nationality” (p.18) because “it is difficult for a western mind to grasp the order of the ideas, unknown in European history, which has evolved this unique conception of the spiritual unity of India.” (Problems of Indian Nationality, Calcutta, 1926, p.17)

Lest the "nastikas" here, (those who do not believe in the existence of any "nation" of Indians in the past) throw all these into the "garbage heap" as "Hindu fundamentalists" living in their "dream world", there are people who cannot fit the bill of "Hindu revivalism" by any stretch of imagination holding similar views on nationalism.

Ramsay Muir, G.P. Gooch, MacDougall rejected the old definition based on five unities. MacDougall defined it as a ‘group consciousness’ (The Group Mind, London, 1920, p.100). G.P Gooch (Nationalism, London 1920) was more explicit, “The core of nationalism is group consciousness[....]. neither the occupation of a well defined area, nor community of race, language, religion, government or economic interests are indispensable to national self-consciousness” (p. 5-6). Ramsay Muir wrote “Nationality, then, is an elusive idea, difficult to define[….] Its essence is a sentiment”. (Nationalism and Internationalism, London, 1919).

Carlton J.H. Hayes concludes in his 'Nationalism: A religion' (New York, 1960): "In simplest terms nationalism may be defined as a fusion of patriotism with a consciousness of nationality" (p. 2) and that "A nationality receives its impress, its character, its individuality from cultural and historical forces" (p. 3). He further wrote, "historical tradition mean an accumulation of remembered or imagined experiences of the past" (p. 4). He defined patriotism 'as a peoples' territorial past, its ancestral soil, involving a popular, sentimental regard for a homeland where one's forefathers lived and are buried or cremated" (p. 4).

Rejecting the nineteenth Century belief that nationalism was a political phenomenon and the existence of State was a prerequisite in nation-formation, Hayes said, “If we are to grasp what a nationality is, we must avoid confusing it with state or nation” (p. 6). Accepting the idea of cultural nationalism, Hayes wrote, “Cultural nationalism may exist with or without political nationalism. For, nationalities can do and exist for fairly long periods without political unity and independence.” (ibid)

Hans Kohn, concludes that the nature of the processes of nation formation in Europe and Asia was not the same. In Europe ‘state’ was mainly instrumental in nation formation, while in Asia nationalism had cultural origins. Even political unity of Germany and Italy was preceded by vigorous intellectual and cultural movements led by Herder, Goethe and Kant. Mazzini. Regarding patriotism, Hayes writes, “Loyalty to familiar places is relatively natural, but it requires artificial effort-purposeful conscious education and training to render men loyal to the sum total of places unfamiliar as well as familiar in an entire country inhabited by his nationality” (p. 9). That means that the spirit of patriotism and national consciousness does not permeate all sections of the population in the same degree at a given point of time. To quote Hayes again, "only through an intensive and extensive educational process will a local group of people become thoroughly aware of their entire nationality and supremely loyal to it" (p. 10).

Every Purana text contains a section called Bhuvan Kosh, in which the boundaries of the land called Bharatavarsha are clearly defined and its progeny is given a common name Bharati. A list of all the Janapadas scattered all over the country is given alongwith the lists of rivers and mountains. A smaller list of seven holy rivers, mountains and cities symbolizing the unity of the land are given there. These slokas were meant for daily recital. List of "punyasthan" or tirthas are explicitly given in the Puranas as well as Mahabharata. These pilgrim centers cover the whole land.

This devotion to the land is not confined to its physical or material aspect only. Vishnu Purana states that the gods in heaven also feel envious of those who are born in the land of Bharatavarsha because the gods after the expiry of their merits will have to take rebirth on the earth while those born in Bharata will be able to transcend the cycle of rebirth. Chapter 9 of the Bhishmaparva in Mahabharata describes Bharatavarsha. While singing the greatness of Bharatavarsha the narrator gives a long list of ancient kings who loved this land - combining the very modern elements of "patriotism, love of the land".

Thus, we find that all the ingredients of the group consciousness called nationalism are present here. This consciousness of the geographical unity exists in the Samkalpa mantra meant to be part of daily prayers and was recited at the beginning of every sacred act or ritual. Dr. Radha Kumud Mookerji goes to the extent “India was preaching the gospel of nationalism when Europe was passing through what has been aptly called the Dark Age of her history, and was labouring under the travails of a new birth". (Nationalism in Hindu Culture, London 1921, 2nd Edition 1957, p. 47)

Asokan inscriptions use a common dialect and script with minor regional variations addressed to the "commons". They use the term Jambudvipa. Samkalpa mantra treats Bharat Khande or Varsh as a part of Jambudvipa. Kautilya Arthashastra of 4th Century B.C. while defining the territory to be conquered by a Chakravarti King defines it as the land between the Himalayas and the ocean from north to south and eight thousand miles from east to west. (Book 9, Chapter 1, Prakarana 135-136 -R.D.Shyamasastry). Dr. R.K. Mookerji believes that the conception of a single power dominating the whole country had not originated with Chandragupta Maurya or Kautilya rather it must have been much older then Chandragupta, Aitreya Brahmana (VIII 15) also presents the same ideal, i.e. there should be one ruler of this Prithvi upto the seas.

In both the above references the word Prithvi has been used as the name of the country. In Mahagovindsutta of Digha Nikaya (considered the oldest portion of Tripitakakas) "Maha Prithvi" name has been given to the land whose shape has been compared with that of a bullock cart which happens to be rectangular in the north and conical in the south. (Rahul Sankrityayana in Hindi had identified this with Bharat). Obviously, the word Prithvi could not have been used for the whole earth beyond Bharatavarsha.

The Prithvi Sukta of Atharva Veda (XII.I) uses the common word Bhoomi for land, but uses Prithvi for that particular territory which was later called Jambudivpa or Bharatavarsha. Here, Prithvi is clearly identified with the Vedic history and culture. This Sukta says that this is the land where our ancestors displayed their valour, where gods defeated the Asuras; where our gods Ashwinis, Vishnu and Indra, the husband of Shachi performed their divine feats; it is the land where sacrifices are performed, for them altars are established, where our sacrificial posts stand erect where five classes of men (four varnas and fifth the Nisad) live; this land which is sustained by Dharma where we are protected by god Indra himself; where we offer ghee to the agni, who acts as our messenger to the gods. It is land where men offer their oblations to the gods in sacrifices and relish the remains of the sacrificial offerings. Here Indra destroys the enemies of gods - Asuras and the demon Vrtra. This is the land where pillars (Yupas) are erected for the Sacrifices and where the Rishis chant the mantras of Rigveda Samaveda and Yajurveda, where Indra is offered Somarasa. The land, where ancient Rishis sang divine songs, where they performed seven sattras with Yajnas and Tapas. This is the land where men move in their chariots and bullock carts on the roads where Sabhas and Samitis function in the villages.

Although the Prithvi Sukta does not give exact boundaries of the land, but the mention of Himalayas, Sea and Sindhu, the six seasons, the flora and fauna, agriculture and crafts all point to the land "Bharatavarsha". Prithvi Sukta uses the word "bhoomi" to denote 'land' while the word Prithvi denotes its name. Please read it in Sanskrit to get a feel of the emotion expressed for all the living and non-living attributes of this "land". It repeatedly reminds that this "motherland" sustains, feeds and gives refuge even after death. Therefore, this land is our mother and "we are her sons" (12th stanza), because it feeds us just like a "mother" (10-th stanza). Prithvi Sukta acknowledges different dialects and different norms of behaviour according to their own regions, but this motherland just like a "cow", "feeds them all with her milk without any distinction" (45-th stanza).

The opening verse of the Prithvi Sukta mentions those values and ideals which sustain this land called Prithvi : Truth, Cosmic Law, Initiation, Penance, Veda and Sacrifice. The name Prithvi, itself could have originated from king Prithu (supposed to have started agriculture on the land) indicating a conscious connection of civilization and culture.

Was there a concept of early geographical core? Manu Smriti gives four increasing spheres of influence. As the core, Manu Smriti (II. 18-19) states that the land between the divine rivers Saraswati and Drishadvati was created by the gods themselves and was known by the name Brahmavarta. In this land the code of conduct transmitted by the tradition in regular succession from generation to generation was seen as the noble code of conduct for all varnas".

At the next stage of expansion, Manusmriti mentions (II. 20-21) the name of Brahmarshi Desh which included the Janapadas of Matsya, Kurukshetra, Panchala and Shurasena. Manusmriti declares that the people born in this land were the torch bearers in the realm of human conduct and therefore all the inhabitants of Prithvi should learn the lessons in character and conduct from them (Manu II. 20-21).

The next expansion is named Madhyadesa in Manusmriti (II. 22), covering the land between Himalaya and Vindhya mountains from north to south and to the west of Prayag in the east and to the east of Vinsana in the west, (the place where river Saraswati is believed to have disappeared).

The fourth and the last stage mentioned by Manu Smriti was called Aryavarta, i.e. the land of the Aryas. It was spread from eastern sea to the western sea and from Himalaya Mountain in the north upto river Narmada in the south. This pure land is worthy of performing sacrifices (yajna) and the black antelope, the symbol of sacrifice, could roam there freely. The lands beyond Aryavarta are impure, i.e. not yet part of the cultural stream. (Manu II. 22-23).

The etymology of the word Arya also includes the meaning 'agriculture' as well as its use as a qualitative connotation denoting 'noble, respectable, higher' in the whole of Sanskrit and Prakrit Literature. Rigvedic "Aryanise the whole World", can mean a civilizational process leading to the spread of a higher culture. It is in this sense that the word Arya has been used in the earliest Buddhist and Jain tradition. The story of Mathav Videgh following the march of Sacrificial fire from the bank of the river Saraswati to the banks of the river Sadanira (Satapath Brahman) also proves that it was a cultural process and not a racial one.

MKG in Hind Swaraj (1909). "Our leading men traveled throughout India either on foot or in bullock-carts………. what do you think could have been the intention of those farseeing ancestors of ours who established Setuabandh (Rameshwar) in the south, Jagannath in the East and Hardwar in the North as places of pilgrimage? You will admit they were no fools. They knew that worship of God could have been performed just as well at home. They taught us that those whose hearts were aglow with righteousness had the Ganga in their own homes....But they saw that India was one undivided land so made by nature. They, therefore, argued that it must be one nation. Arguing thus, they established holy places in various parts of India, and fired the people with idea of nationality in a manner unknown in other parts of the world". (M.K. Gandhi. Hind Swaraj, Chap. 9, Hindu Dharma, Ahmedabad 1950, p. 56).
Last edited by brihaspati on 17 Apr 2009 01:18, edited 1 time in total.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21234
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Lamentation and Hopefulness

Post by Prem »

Sanku wrote:^^^ Wow
:D
We have some very confused Indians who need "moderted enlightenment". Strange they keep rushing to wash the feet of foreign elements and decorate them with powder bindi and myriads of other make up stuff with much disregard /misunderstanding for their own /people and their inner strenght and values.
Its clear why BRF has to replace/become Chanakya of today's Bharat so the barbarians can be bar be qued without second though.
Locked