don't make such a noise about it otherwise this will be implemented in the next term of the govt.these is no reservation criteria inside IIT in how the courses are taught and graded.
Indian Education System
Re: Indian Education System-2
Re: Indian Education System-2
Atleast that would imply that our netas read B-R (hence are not entirely idiots!) 
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Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Indian Education System-2
Indian Medical Colleges Use Potemkin Professors When Regulators Come for Inspection
http://chronicle.com/news/index.php?id= ... _medium=en
http://chronicle.com/news/index.php?id= ... _medium=en
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derkonig
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Re: Indian Education System-2
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 710200.htmderkonig wrote:
http://www.topmba.com/research/global_2 ... ools_2009/
IIMB leads the Yindian pack, followed by piradhers at A & C.
As usual, ISB doesn't make the cut.
ISB is mentioned in the article as being in top 20. what are you referring to?
As they say, when the going ges tough only the tough get going. ISB at the end of the day remains a place where one can essentially get an MBA degree, but when it comes to an MBA education, no body can ever displace the IIMs in India. Period.
Yes, the recession hurt all, including the IIMs, but at the end of the day, its best to measure the worth of an institute by looking at the opinion of the recruiters. The IIMs too had a bad placement season but atleast we don't hear of IIM students graduating without offers.
The ISB may have had its hype & a so-called diverse & experienced student base, but why do the companies not value the ISB grad as much as say an IIM grad? The truth is, atleast in India, companies, especially in tough times are going to discount the work ex & diversity factors when they go on recruitment & mainly focus on the 'education' part.
Re: Indian Education System-2
OK. IIMs zindabad and ISB murdabad.... Khush?As they say, when the going ges tough only the tough get going. ISB at the end of the day remains a place where one can essentially get an MBA degree, but when it comes to an MBA education, no body can ever displace the IIMs in India. Period.
Yes, the recession hurt all, including the IIMs, but at the end of the day, its best to measure the worth of an institute by looking at the opinion of the recruiters. The IIMs too had a bad placement season but atleast we don't hear of IIM students graduating without offers.
The ISB may have had its hype & a so-called diverse & experienced student base, but why do the companies not value the ISB grad as much as say an IIM grad? The truth is, atleast in India, companies, especially in tough times are going to discount the work ex & diversity factors when they go on recruitment & mainly focus on the 'education' part.
Seriously, India gains either way. Thats all that counts. Who between the IIMs and the ISB is better placed to leverage brand equity outside India or to attract foreigners and earn forex? Who is better placed to attract more research intensive faculty from the deep, deep desi intellectual pool worldwide? I don't know but either way, we all win. Better to have 2 models of business than just one basket for all eggs, no?
Sure, I understand you must be a young un in one of 'em IIMs and hence the need to crow and croon about how cool, clear and great they are. Well, they are. Happy?
Besides, as singha said, the glory days are over.No more mega bonuses and BS like that. All are back to ground reality and its better that way.
Jai Ho.
Re: Indian Education System-2
WSJ
India's Cram-School Confidential: Two Years, One Test, 40,000 Students
Town Fills With Teens Studying Full-Time For a College Entrance Exam;
By ERIC BELLMAN
KOTA, India -- Hoping to boost his chances of getting into a top college, Rohit Agarwal quit his high school and left home.
The 16-year-old moved from the far northeast corner of India in June, with two suitcases and a shoulder bag. He took a two-hour flight and a six-hour train ride to the dusty town of Kota, India's cram-school capital.
More than 40,000 students show up in the arid state of Rajasthan every year, looking to attend one of the 100-plus coaching schools here. These intensive programs, which are separate from regular high school, prepare students for college-entrance exams. In Kota, most of the schools focus on the prestigious Indian Institutes of Technology.
Cram-School Capital
More than 40,000 students show up in Kota every year looking to attend one of its 100-plus coaching schools. At left, students at a Bansal Classes school.
The seven IITs nationwide are statistically tougher to get into than Harvard or Cambridge. While around 310,000 students took the entrance exam this April, only the top 8,600 were accepted. A whopping one-third of those winners in the current academic year passed through Kota's cramming regimen.
"If we stayed at home, we just wouldn't be able to study enough," says Mr. Agarwal as he takes a break from lessons. "If you don't study hard, you won't get admission."
Today, he starts studying at 7 a.m., works on practice problems until noon. After lunch, he goes to class, where he gets the answers to the problems, gets home around 8 p.m. and does homework until midnight.
Kota has become a cram-industry boom town as more Indians seek to send their children to college and economic expansion has far outstripped the increase in college placements, making the competition fiercer.
Students study full-time for two years just for one entrance exam, mostly for the IITs but also for other universities and colleges. The rigor has become part of its selling point: As Kota's reputation for success has spread, more young hopefuls have flocked to the city.
"At first, around eight of us studied around my dining-room table. Then I added a few stools to make it 12, then I added a foot to each side of the table," says Vinod Kumar Bansal, who is credited with starting the cram-school craze when he began tutoring students in the 1980s. He went on to found Bansal Classes, the city's first cram school, called "coaching institutes" here.
It all started because Mr. Bansal grew ill. He was working in a chemicals factory when he started having trouble climbing steps; he later discovered he had muscular dystrophy, a hereditary muscle disease for which there is no cure. "My plan was to become a chief engineer of the plant or a general manager but things went in a different direction," he says.
A few of his early students got into an IIT and word spread. Parents in Kota, and then beyond, started asking for his help. In 1991, he started a school, Bansal Classes. He initiated an entrance exam for his own school to identify the brightest prospects for IIT success.
He developed an intensive study system that bombards students with test questions for nine hours a day for two years. They only teach what is on the IIT exams -- mathematics, physics and chemistry.
Now, Bansal Classes' 17,000 students study six days a week. One Sunday a month, they have a six-hour test which is set up just like the IIT exam. After two years, students have taken the mock test more than 20 times.
The course of classes costs up to $1,500 a year, a hefty price for many Indian families. But the payoff can be huge: An IIT degree vaults a graduate into the global elite. Graduates include Vinod Khosla, co-founder of Sun Microsystems Inc., and Arun Sarin, former chief executive of Vodafone Group PLC, the U.K.-based phone company. More than 1,500 Bansal Classes students got into IIT in the academic year that started in July.
Last year, Bansal Classes opened a new, bigger campus that is in better condition than some IITs and is fully wheelchair accessible for Mr. Bansal, who still teaches up to five classes a day. Girls represent 13% of the students, a percentage that is climbing. They wear light-blue polo shirts that say, "Bansalite today, IITian tomorrow." The boys have no uniforms.
The Bansal campus is strangely quiet. Teachers say there are rarely disciplinary problems, except for the occasional student sneaking into a class to repeat it, and a bit of graffiti. Even that is aspirational: The writing on one metal bench says, "Bansalites rock, IIT rocks, Lyf after IIT rox."
Mr. Bansal, 58, says he is now worth more than $20 million. His mobility has declined to the point where he can barely lift a pen. But he says being in a wheelchair 12 hours a day means he has more time to think of challenging questions for students. "Teaching is my breakfast, lunch and dinner," he says.
IIT officials have no official opinion on the cram schools. However, some public and private schools have complained that they are losing their brightest students to such programs.
While some parents complain that the coaching classes give students an unfair advantage and an unbalanced education, Bansal teachers say their students aren't taught enough in regular schooling, so cram courses are needed to help them get into the IITs.
The success of Bansal Classes spawned dozens of imitators, many of them started by Mr. Bansal's former employees. Some even teach students how to ace the entrance exam to get into Bansal Classes.
Cramming has been the salvation of Kota, an industrial center in the 1970s that then fell on hard times. In the past three years, new malls, restaurants, hotels, Internet cafes and clothing stores began to spring up to serve the 16- and 17-year-old cram kids. Many homeowners have added second and third floors to rent out to students.
Balwan Diwani, manager of Milan Cycle, a bike shop in Kota, says bicycle sales have surged to more than 2,000 a year from fewer than 200 five years ago. Mamta Bansal, no relation to the school founder, quit her job as a maid to start a service to deliver boxed lunches and dinners to 30 students as they study. "We try to make what their mothers would cook for them," she says. "I have had to learn how to make dishes from Gujarat, the Punjab and southern India."
Local schools also have benefited: Cram students have to attend regular classes so they can pass their high-school exams and graduate. Some high schools have early morning classes so cram students can finish early and move on to cramming.
"There used to be a lot of hooliganism and goons," says Pradeep Singh Gour, director of the Lawrence and Mayo Public School in Kota. "Now the entire city is like a university campus."
Mr. Agarwal, the student from the northeast, says that if he gets into IIT, he would like to study aeronautical engineering and eventually work at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in the U.S. One of his cousins used his IIT degree to get a high-paying job working for Merrill Lynch & Co. in Tokyo.
He got average scores on recent practice exams, though, which he knows will not be good enough. "IITs seats are limited but boys trying to get in are unlimited," he says.
Write to Eric Bellman at [email protected]
India's Cram-School Confidential: Two Years, One Test, 40,000 Students
Town Fills With Teens Studying Full-Time For a College Entrance Exam;
By ERIC BELLMAN
KOTA, India -- Hoping to boost his chances of getting into a top college, Rohit Agarwal quit his high school and left home.
The 16-year-old moved from the far northeast corner of India in June, with two suitcases and a shoulder bag. He took a two-hour flight and a six-hour train ride to the dusty town of Kota, India's cram-school capital.
More than 40,000 students show up in the arid state of Rajasthan every year, looking to attend one of the 100-plus coaching schools here. These intensive programs, which are separate from regular high school, prepare students for college-entrance exams. In Kota, most of the schools focus on the prestigious Indian Institutes of Technology.
Cram-School Capital
More than 40,000 students show up in Kota every year looking to attend one of its 100-plus coaching schools. At left, students at a Bansal Classes school.
The seven IITs nationwide are statistically tougher to get into than Harvard or Cambridge. While around 310,000 students took the entrance exam this April, only the top 8,600 were accepted. A whopping one-third of those winners in the current academic year passed through Kota's cramming regimen.
"If we stayed at home, we just wouldn't be able to study enough," says Mr. Agarwal as he takes a break from lessons. "If you don't study hard, you won't get admission."
Today, he starts studying at 7 a.m., works on practice problems until noon. After lunch, he goes to class, where he gets the answers to the problems, gets home around 8 p.m. and does homework until midnight.
Kota has become a cram-industry boom town as more Indians seek to send their children to college and economic expansion has far outstripped the increase in college placements, making the competition fiercer.
Students study full-time for two years just for one entrance exam, mostly for the IITs but also for other universities and colleges. The rigor has become part of its selling point: As Kota's reputation for success has spread, more young hopefuls have flocked to the city.
"At first, around eight of us studied around my dining-room table. Then I added a few stools to make it 12, then I added a foot to each side of the table," says Vinod Kumar Bansal, who is credited with starting the cram-school craze when he began tutoring students in the 1980s. He went on to found Bansal Classes, the city's first cram school, called "coaching institutes" here.
It all started because Mr. Bansal grew ill. He was working in a chemicals factory when he started having trouble climbing steps; he later discovered he had muscular dystrophy, a hereditary muscle disease for which there is no cure. "My plan was to become a chief engineer of the plant or a general manager but things went in a different direction," he says.
A few of his early students got into an IIT and word spread. Parents in Kota, and then beyond, started asking for his help. In 1991, he started a school, Bansal Classes. He initiated an entrance exam for his own school to identify the brightest prospects for IIT success.
He developed an intensive study system that bombards students with test questions for nine hours a day for two years. They only teach what is on the IIT exams -- mathematics, physics and chemistry.
Now, Bansal Classes' 17,000 students study six days a week. One Sunday a month, they have a six-hour test which is set up just like the IIT exam. After two years, students have taken the mock test more than 20 times.
The course of classes costs up to $1,500 a year, a hefty price for many Indian families. But the payoff can be huge: An IIT degree vaults a graduate into the global elite. Graduates include Vinod Khosla, co-founder of Sun Microsystems Inc., and Arun Sarin, former chief executive of Vodafone Group PLC, the U.K.-based phone company. More than 1,500 Bansal Classes students got into IIT in the academic year that started in July.
Last year, Bansal Classes opened a new, bigger campus that is in better condition than some IITs and is fully wheelchair accessible for Mr. Bansal, who still teaches up to five classes a day. Girls represent 13% of the students, a percentage that is climbing. They wear light-blue polo shirts that say, "Bansalite today, IITian tomorrow." The boys have no uniforms.
The Bansal campus is strangely quiet. Teachers say there are rarely disciplinary problems, except for the occasional student sneaking into a class to repeat it, and a bit of graffiti. Even that is aspirational: The writing on one metal bench says, "Bansalites rock, IIT rocks, Lyf after IIT rox."
Mr. Bansal, 58, says he is now worth more than $20 million. His mobility has declined to the point where he can barely lift a pen. But he says being in a wheelchair 12 hours a day means he has more time to think of challenging questions for students. "Teaching is my breakfast, lunch and dinner," he says.
IIT officials have no official opinion on the cram schools. However, some public and private schools have complained that they are losing their brightest students to such programs.
While some parents complain that the coaching classes give students an unfair advantage and an unbalanced education, Bansal teachers say their students aren't taught enough in regular schooling, so cram courses are needed to help them get into the IITs.
The success of Bansal Classes spawned dozens of imitators, many of them started by Mr. Bansal's former employees. Some even teach students how to ace the entrance exam to get into Bansal Classes.
Cramming has been the salvation of Kota, an industrial center in the 1970s that then fell on hard times. In the past three years, new malls, restaurants, hotels, Internet cafes and clothing stores began to spring up to serve the 16- and 17-year-old cram kids. Many homeowners have added second and third floors to rent out to students.
Balwan Diwani, manager of Milan Cycle, a bike shop in Kota, says bicycle sales have surged to more than 2,000 a year from fewer than 200 five years ago. Mamta Bansal, no relation to the school founder, quit her job as a maid to start a service to deliver boxed lunches and dinners to 30 students as they study. "We try to make what their mothers would cook for them," she says. "I have had to learn how to make dishes from Gujarat, the Punjab and southern India."
Local schools also have benefited: Cram students have to attend regular classes so they can pass their high-school exams and graduate. Some high schools have early morning classes so cram students can finish early and move on to cramming.
"There used to be a lot of hooliganism and goons," says Pradeep Singh Gour, director of the Lawrence and Mayo Public School in Kota. "Now the entire city is like a university campus."
Mr. Agarwal, the student from the northeast, says that if he gets into IIT, he would like to study aeronautical engineering and eventually work at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in the U.S. One of his cousins used his IIT degree to get a high-paying job working for Merrill Lynch & Co. in Tokyo.
He got average scores on recent practice exams, though, which he knows will not be good enough. "IITs seats are limited but boys trying to get in are unlimited," he says.
Write to Eric Bellman at [email protected]
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derkonig
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Re: Indian Education System-2
vsudhir wrote: Better to have 2 models of business than just one basket for all eggs, no?
Humility is my middle name! Jokes apart, the ISB model is not for India, hence the resources are better used elsewhere.Sure, I understand you must be a young un in one of 'em IIMs and hence the need to crow and croon about how cool, clear and great they are. Well, they are. Happy?
Firstly there is *nothing* wrong in those pay packets. Secondly, all this talk of glory-days-gone-by, doom & gloom atmosphere is also a creation of the very same media which until last year praised the IIMs sky high. The world doesn't exactly run the way the media *wants* it to.Besides, as singha said, the glory days are over.No more mega bonuses and BS like that. All are back to ground reality and its better that way.
Jai Ho.
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Arya Sumantra
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Re: Indian Education System-2
Please check the difference between highest paid salary(CEO's) and lowest paid salary in a "Real" manufacturing economies like Japan, Korea and Germany. That should be our ideal. Don't make a role model out of "building castles in the air(internet and paper)" virtual economies like amirkhan and ukstan and justify ridiculous compensations. Everyone built castles in the air, massa, ukstan created a means to sell them.derkonig wrote:Firstly there is *nothing* wrong in those pay packets.
People rush for careers where there is market inefficiency in compensation: more compensation for less work. As per Supply and Demand as more manpower become available the compensation should go down. Unfortunately this does not happen for top jobs. As people get to the top they find out monopolistic and self-serving ways to maintain that inefficient compensation levels. Sometimes this is done by suppressing questioning of compensation by seniority of position, monopolistic or oligopolistic practices, "tu bhi kha main bhi khaata hoon" -yindian polician style etc. It does not mean those people are not hard-working but the compensation is greater than what should have been.
As an individual, of course you would want highest possible salary for yourself but here we are talking from benefit of country and society point of view.
The whole economy is a pass-the-ball game where everyone in society passes the burden of least compensation to someone else and raising his own compensation requirement with time and the prices of everything keep going up to provide the ever growing compensation to employees until another country with goods/services at lower cost comes in and punctures the local bubble.
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derkonig
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Re: Indian Education System-2
The ideal world is where the market decides the compensation & the closest we got to the ideal world was during the previous boom. Any attempts at wage control is bound to backfire & lead to loss of top talent. One can harp about lesser wage differentials, but honestly, have any of the countries you mentioned done any better than the US? Chances are, they are in deeper trouble & that salary 'caps' are driving away top talent.Arya Sumantra wrote:Please check the difference between highest paid salary(CEO's) and lowest paid salary in a "Real" manufacturing economies like Japan, Korea and Germany. That should be our ideal. Don't make a role model out of "building castles in the air(internet and paper)" virtual economies like amirkhan and ukstan and justify ridiculous compensations. Everyone built castles in the air, massa, ukstan created a means to sell them.
Says who its less work? Not may people can, unfortunately, comprehend the level of complexity in the work that goes on. Just because it looks like a 'desk job' & may not involve a great deal of interaction with the outside world, does not in anyway make the job easier. If such was the case, why did those salaries rise that high in the first place? More importantly, why did the people with so-called "real" jobs stay quiet?more compensation for less work. As per Supply and Demand as more manpower become available the compensation should go down.
There is some truth in competition driving down salaries, but that driving down in marginal at best. The top managers will continue to get highly paid. Today, financial services industry is not just limited to US/UK/EU, its there everywhere, yet we do not hear of salaries coming down, do we? Don't look at the demand-supply eqn. purely from the numbers perspective, the demand-supply eqn. is best determined by taking into account the skills of the candidates.The whole economy is a pass-the-ball game where everyone in society passes the burden of least compensation to someone else and raising his own compensation requirement with time and the prices of everything keep going up to provide the ever growing compensation to employees until another country with goods/services at lower cost comes in and punctures the local bubble.
It was the systematic undermining of the free-market due to 'affirmative action' by Kilton-sahib's admin (Barack Hussain is doing the same mistake by trying to stifle the market driven compensation, its a disgrace!!) which utlimately led to the crash. Had there been no such externality, the boom would have sustained for decades.
Re: Indian Education System-2
This "salary cap driving away top talent" specter has been raised too often to justify blowing away billions of $$s. Then the pertinent question is where do those so-called top talent go after preening their injured feathers? In this economy where jobs are at a premium and that goes double for high-level positions, the top-talent wont go anywhere but do their job with their heads down till the whole thing tides over. So perhaps one should call the bluff of all these cos which claim they need to pay millions in bonuses to 'retain' top talent. coz even if they don't pay, the top talent is unlikely to go anywhere (bird in hand....). And when times becomes good again, rest assured that the same top talent will go to the highest bidder regardless of what bonuses you pay them. Plain and Zimble onlee!derkonig wrote: The ideal world is where the market decides the compensation & the closest we got to the ideal world was during the previous boom. Any attempts at wage control is bound to backfire & lead to loss of top talent. One can harp about lesser wage differentials, but honestly, have any of the countries you mentioned done any better than the US? Chances are, they are in deeper trouble & that salary 'caps' are driving away top talent.
Re: Indian Education System-2
No longer true and it is becoming less true with time. The more I see it, the more I am convinced that IITians making it successful in US has more to do with them being made aware of and exposed to opportunities to go and study in US/work there much more earlier, than being some highly exclusive cradle of talent. Nowadays since I am in the process of interviewing bacchas for interning under me this summer, I am coming across plenty of students who come from lesser 'elite' institutes in India but study at top-5 schools in massa and are pretty darn good too individually (I usually never look at the univ. reputation as a criteria for shortlisting). It is the individual talent that matters in the end not the institution. In India due to the huge gap between supply and demand in high quality college education, unfortunately talent takes a second place to cramming and plain ol' luck.Singha wrote: An IIT degree vaults a graduate into the global elite.
What is this obsession with SUN and Vodafone....haven't IITians made it big elsewhere? Everytime one asks some IIT prof. re. IITians in IT, out pops the same SUN and Vodafone like a phataa record!Graduates include Vinod Khosla, co-founder of Sun Microsystems Inc., and Arun Sarin, former chief executive of Vodafone Group PLC, the U.K.-based phone company. More than 1,500 Bansal Classes students got into IIT in the academic year that started in July.
All true....life before IIT rocks, life after IIT rocks....except I bet life in IIT does not rock."Bansalites rock, IIT rocks, Lyf after IIT rox."
Again an example of phata record....every IITian wannabe wants to work at NASA?Mr. Agarwal, the student from the northeast, says that if he gets into IIT, he would like to study aeronautical engineering and eventually work at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in the U.S. One of his cousins used his IIT degree to get a high-paying job working for Merrill Lynch & Co. in Tokyo.
The rest want to work in Google Ofcourse once they graduate...all such pious thoughts vanish and they join Merrill Lynch -
Arya Sumantra
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Re: Indian Education System-2
The ideal world is where compensation is commensurate with the effort. Hope is that market is the best judge of this. But markets can err too. If you see the ridiculous compensation of some of the hollywood actors and actresses going in millions do you really think it is commensurate with effort? Market does overcompensate. That's what we all as individuals hope to jump on to. The higher the barrier to entry the greater the scope of market overcompensation and as you clear the barrier and join the select club add your own bit and raise the barrier further to artificially reduce supply while you join the party.derkonig wrote:The ideal world is where the market decides the compensation
Germany today is seen as biggest saving grace of EU. why? why not ukstan? East asia is suffering because of export dependence on massa and others and because their small local populations and smaller internal markets not because they are manufacturing economies. In a growing economy there is more demand for engineers and technical professional and in a saturated/about to start declining economy the paper businesses proliferate.derkonig wrote:One can harp about lesser wage differentials, but honestly, have any of the countries you mentioned done any better than the US?
Well if you were offered greater salary for same amount of work as you do now would you not go? Thats what everyone strives for: more compensation for less work.derkonig wrote: Quote:
more compensation for less work. As per Supply and Demand as more manpower become available the compensation should go down.
Says who its less work?
Am not discriminating literally between desk job and sickle & hammer jobs. There are desk jobs in manufacturing too. An accountant in a manufacturing company could be more hard working than a union backed worker. It could be between two desk jobs as well. It could be between any two jobs: a design engineer or R&D or CAD/CAM engineer on one hand and a management/acting/pop singer position on the other.derkonig wrote:Just because it looks like a 'desk job' & may not involve a great deal of interaction with the outside world, does not in anyway make the job easier.
Because when a new type of career is created initially there are very few people qualified in that area experience wise and qualification wise. No body complains against that. It is later that supply-demand shift is supposed to cut the market inefficiency but the "first arrivals cabal" strives to maintain inefficiency by creating new barriers.derkonig wrote:If such was the case, why did those salaries rise that high in the first place?
Anti-MBA outbursts, some justified and some unjustified, are not so uncommon. Why do you find so many PhD in physics or quants as many are called moving into financial world. For the same amount of back breaking work or less, finance pays more than physics. Similar rants are found about acting and other careers too. There was some hue and cry about why the market paid millions to a dumb bimbo like Jade Goody in the aftermath of shilpa shetty big brother saga. Were markets overcompensating some while extorting back-breaking work from others?derkonig wrote:More importantly, why did the people with so-called "real" jobs stay quiet?
As an individual you give first priority to satisy personal greed and thinking what is in overall best interests for society comes later or not at all. So seeing rush of crowd in a certain direction and saying that direction is best for society IS WRONG. This is where markets-are-always-right type of guys falter.
In one sense even corruption is a natural market driven force so shouldn't all those anti-corruption rules be called "too much intervention" and those lawmakers who frame these regulations in constitution be called "socialist idealists". Just allow markets to function, naa?
Re: Indian Education System-2
Jokes apart, the ISB model is not for India, hence the resources are better used elsewhere.
can anyone tell us if
[a] ISB apart from the free land gets any annual grant from GOI like the IIMs?
if the fee for 1yr MBA is 18L ?
if its {no,yes} there is no wastage of public money on ISB and if people feel it adds value
they are fine to pursue it, otherwise it will die shortly.
can anyone tell us if
[a] ISB apart from the free land gets any annual grant from GOI like the IIMs?
if the fee for 1yr MBA is 18L ?
if its {no,yes} there is no wastage of public money on ISB and if people feel it adds value
they are fine to pursue it, otherwise it will die shortly.
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derkonig
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Re: Indian Education System-2
ISB doesn't use public funds, am not sure of the land though. But, the reason, why ISB model does not do well in India is for the simple reason that given a choice between choosing an MBA with say 0-2yrs of work ex versus another with say 5+ yrs of work ex & assuming that both of them are from comparable b-schools (or atleast similarly hyped b-schools), 99 out of a 100 companies will choose the candidate with lesser work ex. The merits/demerits of such policies may be debatable, but such is the ground reality. More importantly, I can say this with reasonable confidence, that such shall be the case for quite some to come.
Even IIMs had a tough time placing the class of 2009, but all IIMs have seen 100% placements. ISB OTOH has seen its class of 2009 graduate with almost 1 in 4 students not having any job offers.
As a result, in this day & age, it will make a lot more sense for the ISB to look up to the IIMs as far as the admission process goes. All that talk of diversity & work ex counts for little during placements. And trust me, out there on the street, poor placements, is a red flag as far as potential applicants are concerned. The current ISB model, may possibly work in India circa 2020 or even beyond, but for the moment, its doomed.
Even IIMs had a tough time placing the class of 2009, but all IIMs have seen 100% placements. ISB OTOH has seen its class of 2009 graduate with almost 1 in 4 students not having any job offers.
As a result, in this day & age, it will make a lot more sense for the ISB to look up to the IIMs as far as the admission process goes. All that talk of diversity & work ex counts for little during placements. And trust me, out there on the street, poor placements, is a red flag as far as potential applicants are concerned. The current ISB model, may possibly work in India circa 2020 or even beyond, but for the moment, its doomed.
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negi
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Re: Indian Education System-2
I believe work experience always helps (provided one actually did add some value in his/her organisation ) ; ISB might not have drawn as many placements as the IIM's but that might not be due to shortcomings of the former infact it also is a pointer to the fact as to what sort of roles/designation do the companies offer to Indian B schools ;I mean likes of Lehman Bros and Barclays definetly wont hire a fresh IIM grad with no work experience for a same designation as say someone with 6-7 year Industry experience from a comparable school.
What is important is if the roles or positions themselves require a couple of years of work ex then ISB's dismal performance is self explanatory .
I believe ISB like model is good for our education system ; being a business school I am sure fees is not an issue (specially when the average work ex for applicants if 4+ years).However at the same time since the institution is self-funded it is Autonomous in true sense ,assuming the quality of education is pretty much at par with IIM's I am sure it should be able to attract and retain quality faculty if the remuneration is good . Placements will only increase with time when the alumni network would grow and create a brand value .
Education system has to be decentralized I have heard good things about VIT (Vellore) when it comes to engineering ; more number of such institutions will reduce the burden on GOI and ofcourse make the market more competitive (something which IIT's and IIM's as of now do not have to worry about )
What is important is if the roles or positions themselves require a couple of years of work ex then ISB's dismal performance is self explanatory .
I believe ISB like model is good for our education system ; being a business school I am sure fees is not an issue (specially when the average work ex for applicants if 4+ years).However at the same time since the institution is self-funded it is Autonomous in true sense ,assuming the quality of education is pretty much at par with IIM's I am sure it should be able to attract and retain quality faculty if the remuneration is good . Placements will only increase with time when the alumni network would grow and create a brand value .
Education system has to be decentralized I have heard good things about VIT (Vellore) when it comes to engineering ; more number of such institutions will reduce the burden on GOI and ofcourse make the market more competitive (something which IIT's and IIM's as of now do not have to worry about )
Re: Indian Education System-2
not much point blaming the kota herd. in india we have 1.2 bil pop and half dozen engg schools perceived by the public as 'world class' and 'gateway to fame n fortune'. in Yamrika
they have atleast 50 large world class univs and a UG candidates from a 4x smaller population. Add to that most univs in US have much bigger enrollments in UG per dept compared to IITs. to get a IIT level UG educashun in Yamrika is simply not that hard,
esp if your parents have a bit of money - its common and most large univs there can blow away the IITs for faculty strength, industry connected projects, opps for UGs to get somewhat involved with Phd level multi-year projects and physical infra
we have created a commie style shortage economy where everyone is fighting like a dog for the small pie.
IITs have cornered the mindshare because in 60s and 70s nobody else was able to go study
in US in best univs and get best of jobs. the huge diff in GOI funding between IITs and NITs (something like 10X) only made this caste system worse. and state engg colleges probably got 10X less than NITs. you starve a set of people - one cannot blame them for lacking in
muscles! who knows what the genes were and what was lost due to this starved childhood?
with this selective elitist approach the country cannot move fwd. either the Govt sets up
large world class public univs like some of the state funded univs in US or gets out of higher
edu altogether. let the IITs also charge the market rate as the Pvt engg colleges do.
they have atleast 50 large world class univs and a UG candidates from a 4x smaller population. Add to that most univs in US have much bigger enrollments in UG per dept compared to IITs. to get a IIT level UG educashun in Yamrika is simply not that hard,
esp if your parents have a bit of money - its common and most large univs there can blow away the IITs for faculty strength, industry connected projects, opps for UGs to get somewhat involved with Phd level multi-year projects and physical infra
we have created a commie style shortage economy where everyone is fighting like a dog for the small pie.
IITs have cornered the mindshare because in 60s and 70s nobody else was able to go study
in US in best univs and get best of jobs. the huge diff in GOI funding between IITs and NITs (something like 10X) only made this caste system worse. and state engg colleges probably got 10X less than NITs. you starve a set of people - one cannot blame them for lacking in
muscles! who knows what the genes were and what was lost due to this starved childhood?
with this selective elitist approach the country cannot move fwd. either the Govt sets up
large world class public univs like some of the state funded univs in US or gets out of higher
edu altogether. let the IITs also charge the market rate as the Pvt engg colleges do.
Last edited by Singha on 18 Apr 2009 21:42, edited 2 times in total.
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negi
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Re: Indian Education System-2
'Satya Vachan' Gurudev. 
Re: Indian Education System-2
With no $10 laptop in sight, India buys 250,000 OLPCs
India has purchased 250,000 XO laptops. This move will boost the One Laptop Per Child project and could help the deflating effort get back on its feet.
Well, is it true then -- have the Indian babu blowhards had to eat crow after crowing so loudly about their own much-vaunted plans?
Re: Indian Education System-2
Three top UPSC ranks go to girls; Shubhra Saxena tops.
Girls have bagged the top three ranks in the Civil Services Examination 2008 with Noida's Shubhra Saxena topping the test, results for which were declared here today.
While Sharandeep Kaur Brar has been placed second, Kiran Kaushal secured the third position.
A total of 791 candidates have cracked the exam for which written test was conducted in October-November last year and the interview for personality test was held in March-April this year, the UPSC said.
The candidates, who have been recommended for appointment, include 364 from general category, 236 from OBC, 130 from SC and 61 from ST group.(Total number of candidates selected on the basis of 'Reservations' are 63 more then those from Open category)
30-year-old Saxena has done her B.Tech from IIT Roorkee. This was her second attempt. Second topper Sharandeep Kaur has done her MA from Punjab University.
The top 25 candidates included 10 women. While 12 of them are from Commerce, Management, Humanities, Science and Social Sciences, nine candidates are from streams of Engineering and four from Medical Sciences.
A total of 3,18,843 candidates applied for the examination, while 1,67,035 appeared for the preliminary examination. Of them 11,849 qualified for the Mains but only 2,140 could make it to the personality test.
Girls have bagged the top three ranks in the Civil Services Examination 2008 with Noida's Shubhra Saxena topping the test, results for which were declared here today.
While Sharandeep Kaur Brar has been placed second, Kiran Kaushal secured the third position.
A total of 791 candidates have cracked the exam for which written test was conducted in October-November last year and the interview for personality test was held in March-April this year, the UPSC said.
The candidates, who have been recommended for appointment, include 364 from general category, 236 from OBC, 130 from SC and 61 from ST group.(Total number of candidates selected on the basis of 'Reservations' are 63 more then those from Open category)
30-year-old Saxena has done her B.Tech from IIT Roorkee. This was her second attempt. Second topper Sharandeep Kaur has done her MA from Punjab University.
The top 25 candidates included 10 women. While 12 of them are from Commerce, Management, Humanities, Science and Social Sciences, nine candidates are from streams of Engineering and four from Medical Sciences.
A total of 3,18,843 candidates applied for the examination, while 1,67,035 appeared for the preliminary examination. Of them 11,849 qualified for the Mains but only 2,140 could make it to the personality test.
Re: Indian Education System-2
http://business.rediff.com/report/2009/ ... uition.htm
The article says it the best
There was a law in Maharashtra that teachers in schools cannot start or work in coaching classes. Wonder what happened of that.
The article says it the best
I wonder if we are the only major country that has such a massive failure of the primary education system that needs to be supplemented by "coaching classes""Many schools conveniently push the ball back to parents, to tell them to engage private tutors for their kids. This is a serious failure in the education system," Assocham secretary-general D S Rawat said.
There was a law in Maharashtra that teachers in schools cannot start or work in coaching classes. Wonder what happened of that.
Re: Indian Education System-2
well I think its there in east asia - to a greater extent. the soviet bloc also had well organized clubs to study science, math etc albeit that was to learn more not pass exams.
Re: Indian Education System-2
Well, the clubs thing was probably more of a community thing to pay for expenses.
Here an absolutely imbecilic education policy that artificially restricts supply directly impacts people who want to study. Its one thing having to pay tuition fees, but paying 1/3rd of total income? That too, a significant portion of which is for coaching classes? So not only does the restricted supply result in high fees for a substandard product, but you have to pay more just to get a passable education. Add to that the money cost of the time spent by the student, the parents etc. Shameless!
Here an absolutely imbecilic education policy that artificially restricts supply directly impacts people who want to study. Its one thing having to pay tuition fees, but paying 1/3rd of total income? That too, a significant portion of which is for coaching classes? So not only does the restricted supply result in high fees for a substandard product, but you have to pay more just to get a passable education. Add to that the money cost of the time spent by the student, the parents etc. Shameless!
Re: Indian Education System-2
Maharshtra Govt proposes to regulate the fees that can be charged by "coaching classes"
Check this A class of Kota fame, which is run from Don Bosco School, Borivli, and which came to Mumbai two years ago, last month launched a “Selection Guarantee Programme’’ for students preparing for the IIT Joint Entrance Exam (JEE). Under this scheme, the entire fee of Rs 1.5 lakh is refunded if the student does not get into an IIT, said branch manager Saraswati Shivhare. Students also have the option of paying a lower fee of Rs 89,000, but in that case the risk of not getting a seat would be theirs. 
Check this A class of Kota fame, which is run from Don Bosco School, Borivli, and which came to Mumbai two years ago, last month launched a “Selection Guarantee Programme’’ for students preparing for the IIT Joint Entrance Exam (JEE). Under this scheme, the entire fee of Rs 1.5 lakh is refunded if the student does not get into an IIT, said branch manager Saraswati Shivhare. Students also have the option of paying a lower fee of Rs 89,000, but in that case the risk of not getting a seat would be theirs.
Re: Indian Education System-2
The Odds Favor Business Schools in China and India
2. An MBA is valued because of the connections it brings - a degree, access to an alumni and peer network and so on. But do these things matter as much in Asia as in the west? Just wondering.
Asian B-schools must go a long way to match Western ones, but they are fast making giant strides
1. Is it really true that faculty research and quality isn't that big a deal?Leading indigenous MBA programs are able to provide much greater exposure to these contextual realities than Harvard or Stanford ever could. One U.S.-trained partner at the Mumbai offices of one of the world's leading strategy consulting firms told us: "We have direct experience with MBAs from the top Indian schools as well as returnees with degrees from the top Western schools. American MBAs are better packaged. However, the Indian MBAs are much stronger analytically and have more in-depth understanding of the Indian business environment. On average, the latter tend to be more successful for us. The importance of context also shows up in that our Europe-educated MBAs tend to perform better in India than those from the U.S."
2. An MBA is valued because of the connections it brings - a degree, access to an alumni and peer network and so on. But do these things matter as much in Asia as in the west? Just wondering.
Re: Indian Education System-2
Tanaji I believe the clubs thing was [a] the ruling regimes had a deep interest in nurturing science a desire to prove to the world the superiority of the commie system not just in sports but intellectual work.
if one looks at the ACM olympiads, pretty much all of the russia, kazakhstan, belarus, ukraine, bulgaria, czech,
poland, hungary always feature prominently. a couple of places like st petersburg and moscow have a overwhelming power in these olympiads and international contests.
whatever be the reasons for starting and sponsoring this - the benefit is that excellence and a desire to do everything in a world-class way has now become institutionalized.
if one looks at the ACM olympiads, pretty much all of the russia, kazakhstan, belarus, ukraine, bulgaria, czech,
poland, hungary always feature prominently. a couple of places like st petersburg and moscow have a overwhelming power in these olympiads and international contests.
whatever be the reasons for starting and sponsoring this - the benefit is that excellence and a desire to do everything in a world-class way has now become institutionalized.
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Bade
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Re: Indian Education System-2
End the University as We Know It
Some ideas in there was discussed in BR coincidentally, though all not related to Indian system.6. Impose mandatory retirement and abolish tenure. Initially intended to protect academic freedom, tenure has resulted in institutions with little turnover and professors impervious to change. After all, once tenure has been granted, there is no leverage to encourage a professor to continue to develop professionally or to require him or her to assume responsibilities like administration and student advising. Tenure should be replaced with seven-year contracts, which, like the programs in which faculty teach, can be terminated or renewed. This policy would enable colleges and universities to reward researchers, scholars and teachers who continue to evolve and remain productive while also making room for young people with new ideas and skills.
The dirty secret of higher education is that without underpaid graduate students to help in laboratories and with teaching, universities couldn’t conduct research or even instruct their growing undergraduate populations. That’s one of the main reasons we still encourage people to enroll in doctoral programs. It is simply cheaper to provide graduate students with modest stipends and adjuncts with as little as $5,000 a course — with no benefits — than it is to hire full-time professors.
Re: Indian Education System-2
if you compare to industry - what is the analogue of senior tenured professors in the industry and what are the expectations?
does one expects them to become deans, do people and financial management,
intimidate the opposition, exert a halo effect around the univ brand, meet
industry folks and arrange JVs and funding ? would they still teach and r&d
-- I dont think time would permit that.
that would be similar to a industry guy on managerial track
does one expect them to avoid all the above and just be very senior hands on
types still engaging in active r&d, project work and teaching?
that would be similar to senior tech leads in the industry.
I think expecting them to be BOTH is unfair. there is only 24 hrs.
one understands medical residency candidates, Phds trying to finish up and
non-tenured profs work until 2am everyday as a matter of expectation but
for long term morale and life balance thats not good.
and as one gets older surely not feasible without a health breakdown. outliers
0.1% might manage it and stay alive.
does one expects them to become deans, do people and financial management,
intimidate the opposition, exert a halo effect around the univ brand, meet
industry folks and arrange JVs and funding ? would they still teach and r&d
-- I dont think time would permit that.
that would be similar to a industry guy on managerial track
does one expect them to avoid all the above and just be very senior hands on
types still engaging in active r&d, project work and teaching?
that would be similar to senior tech leads in the industry.
I think expecting them to be BOTH is unfair. there is only 24 hrs.
one understands medical residency candidates, Phds trying to finish up and
non-tenured profs work until 2am everyday as a matter of expectation but
for long term morale and life balance thats not good.
and as one gets older surely not feasible without a health breakdown. outliers
0.1% might manage it and stay alive.
Re:
DIT changed name to NSIT (S.Abhisheik wrote:I for one am still confused between DCE and DIT
Pretty funny sanku! I believe DCE has upgraded itself recently, they have a swank new campus and building, the alumni luminaries include Vinod Dham of Pentium fame.
That upgradation happened a decade ago.Only difference is that DIT has a better faculty.
Vajpayee's idea)...hence the confusion....it has an awesome campus in Dwarka since 1997. Cutoffs go above DCE every year for the past decade or so....Faculty is awful at both places....babudom at its max due to multiplicity of authorities.....
Re: Indian Education System-2
Thats the problem. You don't hear of IIM students w/o offers. The ground reality is quite different. even at A/B/C many are sitting at home...less said about L/I/k the better....ISB at the end of the day remains a place where one can essentially get an MBA degree, but when it comes to an MBA education, no body can ever displace the IIMs in India. Period.
Yes, the recession hurt all, including the IIMs, but at the end of the day, its best to measure the worth of an institute by looking at the opinion of the recruiters. The IIMs too had a bad placement season but atleast we don't hear of IIM students graduating without offers.
Pretty courageous on the part of ISB to be honest & transparent....
and anywayz.. placements don't depend on quality of education...it all depends upon the alumni network....they are the ones who hire...nothing..and i repeat nothing else matters....like in engg.. education has zilch relevance to actual job...
Re: Indian Education System-2
ravig, interesting claim wrt the IIMs. Are you sure about the 'many sitting at home' part? I am not challenging you, just curious to know, thats all.ravig wrote:Thats the problem. You don't hear of IIM students w/o offers. The ground reality is quite different. even at A/B/C many are sitting at home...less said about L/I/k the better....
Pretty courageous on the part of ISB to be honest & transparent....
Are you referring to those who 'opted out' of placements?
Re: Indian Education System-2
stan said elsewhere. i thought it was very enlightened.
It is harder to change your opinions infinitely often in the search for truth. I am still in the process of changing my opinions from this side to that....
Re: Indian Education System-2
Teach India: Make free education for all a reality
The foremost task before the new HRD minister is getting the Right to Education Bill, ensuring free and compulsory education to children in the 6-14 age group, passed. All set to be introduced in the last session of Parliament, dithering and last minute pressure by the strong private lobby had ensured its delay.
Whatever might be the shortcomings of Arjun Singh’s tenure as HRD minister, there was clarity about the state’s role in school education — that it has to be in the driver’s seat. The failure of Public-Private Partnership in setting up 6,000 model schools in small towns should be a lesson for the new minister.
Driven by Planning Commission, the scheme could not take off because of the private sector’s demand for fixed revenue and its refusal to accept conditions on quality set by government. The new minister has to get cracking on it. The success of Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan (SSA) led to a similar programme, Rashtriya Madhyamik Shiksha Abhiyan (RMSA), for secondary education, which was launched a day before poll dates were announced. There are lakhs of children who after free education through SSA will be coming out of class VI/VII and look for a similar State intervention.
Their need has to be addressed immediately. The rapid expansion of the school system, and the right to education, imply a huge need for trained teachers. The lackadaisical approach witnessed till now in this key area — recognition to hundreds of incompetent training institutes — needs to be abandoned forthwith and a comprehensive policy guided by strong monitoring put in place.
The last five years witnessed a growth in institutions of higher learning, including IITs, IIMs and central universities. But most of these new institutions are functioning out of makeshift campuses and on borrowed faculty.
This has to be tackled urgently. There has been criticism of Singh's regime for the manner of appointments to higher educational institutions, with many reportedly close to him getting plum posts. A case in point was the hurried manner in which vice-chancellors of 15 new central universities were appointed, on the eve of the announcement of poll dates. Most of them, it is said, are mediocre academics.
UGC needs a complete overhauling, with corruption charges being levelled against it. While systemic change in UGC can take some time, a probe may be in order into the grant of deemed university status — 100 in last five years — to private institutions.
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derkonig
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Re: Indian Education System-2
I dont know what your sources are but that is *Completely Wrong*. No IIM grad from A/B/C or for that matter even L/I/K is "sitting at home", all have offers. If you are referring to ppl. opting out of placements, well firstly that does not exactly qualify as sitting at home. Besides ppl. opting out of placements were a rarity this year, not that opting out of placements was ever a strong trend ever at the IIMs. As for ISB, they have little to show in anything, so transparency is the only option they got. So much for experience & diversity.ravig wrote: Thats the problem. You don't hear of IIM students w/o offers. The ground reality is quite different. even at A/B/C many are sitting at home...less said about L/I/k the better....
Pretty courageous on the part of ISB to be honest & transparent....
and anywayz.. placements don't depend on quality of education...it all depends upon the alumni network....they are the ones who hire...nothing..and i repeat nothing else matters....like in engg.. education has zilch relevance to actual job...
Re: Indian Education System-2
^^
derkonig, ravig's claim surprised me as well, and that's why I asked him. The IIM v/s ISB argument is something I don't wish to get into, but 100% placements at IIMs are definitely not in doubt, at least AFAIK. Of course you would know better because you were/are actually there on Bannerghatta Road unlike me!
Lets wait for his reply.
derkonig, ravig's claim surprised me as well, and that's why I asked him. The IIM v/s ISB argument is something I don't wish to get into, but 100% placements at IIMs are definitely not in doubt, at least AFAIK. Of course you would know better because you were/are actually there on Bannerghatta Road unlike me!
Lets wait for his reply.
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derkonig
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Re: Indian Education System-2
^^^
Which is why, even I am curious about where did ravig learn of this 'ppl sitting at home' thing. Yes, the DDM went after IIMs with a vengeance this placement season, crying hoarse about how placements were extended, offers were slashed, etc, yet they did not come out with any '<100% placements @ IIMs' thing.
Alternately ravig is confusing 'sitting at home' with ppl. who haven't joined their jobs yet. Joining dates can extend right from april to august.
Which is why, even I am curious about where did ravig learn of this 'ppl sitting at home' thing. Yes, the DDM went after IIMs with a vengeance this placement season, crying hoarse about how placements were extended, offers were slashed, etc, yet they did not come out with any '<100% placements @ IIMs' thing.
Alternately ravig is confusing 'sitting at home' with ppl. who haven't joined their jobs yet. Joining dates can extend right from april to august.
Re: Indian Education System-2
30/30 for Super 30
These guys are always an inspiration.The Super 30 coaching institute here has witnessed complete success for the second consecutive year with all 30 of its students clearing the highly competitive Indian Institute of Technology-Joint Entrance Examination (IIT-JEE), the institute announced on Monday.
“Everyone is in a celebratory mood. We distributed lots of sweets,” said Nagendra Ram, a Super 30 student.
The institute selects talented students from poor families and provides them free coaching, food and accommodation so that they can focus on passing the IIT-JEE exam.
“Hard work, proper guidance and supervision are the secrets of our success,” Super 30 director Anand Kumar told IANS.
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Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Indian Education System-2
Recession Prompts Foreign Academics to Seek Jobs at Indian Universities
http://chronicle.com/jobs/blogs/onhirin ... _medium=en
http://chronicle.com/jobs/blogs/onhirin ... _medium=en
Re: Indian Education System-2
Congress immediately at what it does best --- Division of society by pursuing foolish policies.
Next will look into provision of quota in private sector.
Will look into OBC quota for pvt educational institutes: Sibal
Next will look into provision of quota in private sector.
Will look into OBC quota for pvt educational institutes: Sibal
NEW DELHI: As he assumed charge, HRD minister Kapil Sibal promised to look into the implementation of OBC reservation in private unaided educational institutions.
"We will look into all such issues," Sibal told reporters when asked about his plans with regard to implementation of OBC reservation in private and unaided educational institutes considering that his predecessor Arjun Singh had gone half way by introducing quota in government institutions.
The government has implemented 27% seats for OBCs in Central Educational Institutions (CEI). Most of these institutions are implementing the quota in a staggering manner.
The government has allocated additional funds towards enhancing infrastructure for increasing the seats to implement the OBC quota.
To another question on educational institutions facing difficulties in implementing the OBC quota, Sibal said that "all new policies have teething problems. We will look into all those things".
The 27% quota in CEI has been implemented since 2007.
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Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Indian Education System-2
India's New Higher-Education Minister Welcomes Foreign Universities
http://chronicle.com/news/index.php?id= ... _medium=en
http://chronicle.com/news/index.php?id= ... _medium=en
Re: Indian Education System-2
^^^^
Say hello to high tuition fees. We need competition for the rates schools charge for LKG. I heard sometimes it between Rs50,000 per year in some schools.
Say hello to high tuition fees. We need competition for the rates schools charge for LKG. I heard sometimes it between Rs50,000 per year in some schools.