MRCA News and Discussion

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Tilak » 20 Apr 2009 23:41

X-Posted :

I am posting this here to provide a context, and hope there will be no trolling but a serious BVR Vs. WVR wrt. the smaller planes sneaking in.. If one remembers the Jock from USAF paid his full due to the improved Mig 21 MKI.. and where does it place the LCA ..


T-38 Talon caps an F-22 8)




More from the DEW Line :

The facts are a bit sketchy here. This clip was posted to YouTube on 18 April by an anonymous user named "d43e49". The video identifies the attacking aircraft as a T-38, but it's not confirmed by anything shown within the clip. At the 35-sec mark, the F-22's shape is clearly visible as it emerges above the target sight after the kill.

As far as I know, this is the first video clip of a simulated F-22 shootdown to reach the public domain. That is newsworthy by itself. Let's also be very clear: a single simulated kill without context says nothing meaningful about the F-22's dogfighting or aerial prowess. Even an EA-18G can apparently get lucky once.

If a T-38 was really involved, then congratulations to the pilot. Your are either absurdly lucky or insanely skilled.


And let the :(( start in earnest..
Last edited by Tilak on 21 Apr 2009 00:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 20 Apr 2009 23:46

^^ And this is in MRCA thread because... :-?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kailash » 21 Apr 2009 00:24

Nikhil T wrote:PLUS why was there a two day delay in confirmation ???? What happens to Rafale's reputation now that the story has been published from ToI to Wall Street Journal??
Responsibility should be fixed in the MoD.


It is the media which needs to be taught some responsibility. If publishing cr*p is their right, now coming out with names is their duty. Dassault should drag them to court, asking them to name their sources.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 21 Apr 2009 02:02

Kailash wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:PLUS why was there a two day delay in confirmation ???? What happens to Rafale's reputation now that the story has been published from ToI to Wall Street Journal??
Responsibility should be fixed in the MoD.


It is the media which needs to be taught some responsibility. If publishing cr*p is their right, now coming out with names is their duty. Dassault should drag them to court, asking them to name their sources.


Its also MoD's responsibility to not let things go out of hand for a full two-three days. Only MoD knew the truth, and thus, only it had the responsibility to clear things up in the same way as Dassault's spokesman cleared up their side of the story (about not having any official info from MoD) within a few hours of the initial report.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 21 Apr 2009 03:22

quote the quoting of anglo saxons relaying ddm by jean_m.. makes me think this is all a feud between the two eye-rope-eean rivals - dassault vs. saab. it may be that dassault started it by denying the aesa for gripen ng, and gripen went vixen, and had to do something like this. by that note, then both could be disqualified like two fighting school boys.

never know!.. but sheesh! it was indeed bad to take this much time let lose on the media to play about. what would be in the next headline? typhoon vs. mig35? SH vs. F16? or other feuds. call it Indian Multi Massala Rumor Club AH ddm to even think about publishing without verifying or giving the benefit of doubt to the suspicion that none authorized such cancellation.

bad media.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby p_saggu » 21 Apr 2009 03:53

Ahem,
An entirely shocking story doing the rounds for a whole week before someone comes up to clarify it sounds fishy to me.

I am happy that the Rafale is still in the running. However,

If this results in Dassault and the Gov of france, stop and scratch their french beards, as to why such a thing is a not too unlikely, they might after all see why arrogance and sheer baniyagiri is not going to get them too far.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby dorai » 21 Apr 2009 04:23

@ SaiK

How many times must people repeat that Saab never intended to use the Thaley array on Gripen NG ? They said it the same day Thales was picked for the demonstrator project.

Vixen is also not selected for Gripen NG but a new radar that use both PS/05A and Vixen programs as source. AND officially the Gripen IN radar has not been announced. IN is a version of NG and more and more whispers talk about a Israeli frontend to PS/05A...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby JaiS » 21 Apr 2009 05:20

pankaj wrote:Indian Air Force says Rafale still in fighter competition
By Siva Govindasamy


:rotfl: DDM bests itself ! :rotfl:

A similar news was 'leaked' regarding Gripen, which was denied later on. I wonder whose turn is it next. :mrgreen:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Div » 21 Apr 2009 08:04

dorai wrote:What a joke this competiton is and all the corrupt journalists and unnamed sources in the mod.

The joke's on the Indian taxpayer.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kmc_chacko » 21 Apr 2009 09:27

Ok, Stop, now tell me is Rafael is IN or OUT of MRCA I am little bit :-?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby m mittal » 21 Apr 2009 09:38

As of now it is IN.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby narayana » 21 Apr 2009 10:59

Israeli Negotiations for F-35 Bogging Down Over Costs, Technology Concerns

While cost is no doubt a very real concern - the estimated price tag for the 75 F-35s is placed at $15.2 billion - much of the Israeli funding comes in the form of U.S. Foreign Military Financing (FMF) credits, which will total $11.425 billion from 2009 through 2012 alone.


Instead of spending 12 billion on AC which are not fully ready or subsystems like AESA, TVC not yet ready,why dont we just dump them and go for F-35,any of the current MRCA contenders are no match for F-35.

just have the below in IAF inventory
su-30 MKI
F-35
Pak Fa
LCA

some may ask why F-35 if we have PAK-FA?i think Pak-fa can be compared to F-22 and not F-35

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 21 Apr 2009 11:15

narayana wrote:Instead of spending 12 billion on AC which are not fully ready or subsystems like AESA, TVC not yet ready,why dont we just dump them and go for F-35,any of the current MRCA contenders are no match for F-35.

There are many points against F-35. TOT is one sour factor. Even England is displeased in this regard. Second point is that we want a MULTI-ROLE aircraft. F-35, though touted as one, is really only good for a2g roles. Its a2a capability (especially its agility) is highly suspected. There is much opposition in US itself who claim that the F-35 is not worth its price tag.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby narayana » 21 Apr 2009 14:09

Parijat Gaur wrote:There are many points against F-35. TOT is one sour factor. Even England is displeased in this regard. Second point is that we want a MULTI-ROLE aircraft. F-35, though touted as one, is really only good for a2g roles. Its a2a capability (especially its agility) is highly suspected. There is much opposition in US itself who claim that the F-35 is not worth its price tag.


What we got in return of the so called "TOT's" is a big mystery for me,not even once we could do what china does every time,creating a desi clone of almost every imported weapon system.

this is what wiki has to say about F-35, of course it is quoted by USAF,so at least it has half truth.
The criticism of the F-35 has been dismissed by the Pentagon and manufacturer.[39][41] The USAF has conducted an analysis of the F-35's air-to-air performance against all 4th generation fighter aircraft currently available, and has found the F-35 to be at least four times more effective. Maj Gen Charles R. Davis, USAF

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Ajay K » 21 Apr 2009 14:39

At the time of AJT selection, uncle offered us the T-38 assembly line with complete TOT but we opted for Hawk instead. I feel that no matter what uncle offers we would not fall for it. :roll:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 21 Apr 2009 14:46

Parijat Gaur wrote:
Jamal K. Malik wrote:Cost and Performances of MiG-35 is better then others
Can some one break my illusion :)
In this forum,We always talk abt these amreeke and europian fighters
Why not our all seasons' friend

Though even I feel there is a bias against Mig-35 in this forum, I kind of understand why. A major reason is that people are sceptical of Russia. They have been leeching on us form quite some time. Another factor may be that, unlike other contenders, no one knows full potential of Mig-35. It is still somewhat in development. It has not been tested like the others. Also there is a lot of speculation about its capabilities. You will always find different specs of it on different sites.
Though aside all this, even my favourite choice for MRCA next to Rafale is Mig-35. But it is basically due to my paranoia with Unkill and also because I personally doubt Eurofighter's a2g capability.

The prototype In AERO INDIA 2007/2009 was the final.
This prototype was the better then these amreeke fighters
I m fully agree with u that it has not tested like others becoz it is latest in all

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 21 Apr 2009 14:53

narayana wrote:Israeli Negotiations for F-35 Bogging Down Over Costs, Technology Concerns

While cost is no doubt a very real concern - the estimated price tag for the 75 F-35s is placed at $15.2 billion - much of the Israeli funding comes in the form of U.S. Foreign Military Financing (FMF) credits, which will total $11.425 billion from 2009 through 2012 alone.


Instead of spending 12 billion on AC which are not fully ready or subsystems like AESA, TVC not yet ready,why dont we just dump them and go for F-35,any of the current MRCA contenders are no match for F-35.

just have the below in IAF inventory
su-30 MKI
F-35
Pak Fa
LCA

some may ask why F-35 if we have PAK-FA?i think Pak-fa can be compared to F-22 and not F-35

Sir
Unkill will not sell it to INDIA untill it become out dated or they have better then this fighers

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Apr 2009 17:47

This is NOT to side track this thread, but members need to catch up with the past, specially WRT the F-35:

Economics Times :: Monday, July 23 2007 :: US' F-35 bait is too tempting for India to resist

Posting in full to facilitate more mature discussions here (Again: JULY, 2007 - not even 2 years old):

NEW DELHI: In a clear sign of the growing defence cooperation between India and the US, Washington has indicated its willingness to transfer high- technology weaponry to India. Reports said the US could agree to technology transfer of the fifth generation joint strike fighter F-35.

Lockheed Martin's vice-president for Business Development Rob Weiss told agencies after the meeting with Indian officials that they had indicated that the F-35 was ready to be in the reckoning for India's fighter needs beyond the induction of the 126 Multi-role Combat Aircraft.

Although Pentagon has offered New Delhi participation in its missile shield, top-of-the-shelf 4th generation F-16 and F-18/A fighters, weapon-locating radars and its new brand of long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft, the F-35 was kept out of discussions.

Reports said a top-level team from Lockheed Martin met the Indian Air Force brass to convey that the F-35 Lightning-II - single-seat, single-engine, stealth-capable military strike fighter - was available for IAF's fifth generation fighter requirements. The offer brings some relief to India, which has been seeking partners to develop futuristic fifth-generation fighters. India has been in discussions with the MiG Corp for some time on India's fifth-generation fighter requirements. Pranab Mukherjee had held several rounds of discussions with Russia on the issue.

The IAF, which is not inclined on the Sukhoi-led T-50 programme, is of the view that a low-cost fifth-generation fighter should be deployed for meeting the challenges in its neighbourhood. New Delhi has been in negotiations with Moscow for joint development and investment in next-generation fighters.

Mr Weiss told a news agency that India was considering the offer. "We briefed top IAF officials about the new fighters," he said. With embedded antennas, aligned edges, internal weapons and fuel and special coatings and material, the F-35 fighter uses stealth to pick and choose engagements while roaming undetected by enemy defence systems.

Mr Weiss said the F-35 fighters boast of the most powerful sensor suite ever to be fitted on a fighter plane which will enable it to bring a seamless real-world and real-time 360-degree display of the battle space to turn the pilots into "tacticians rather than technicians". Lockheed Martin officials said if new countries joined the F-35 programme, the US could be open to delivery of new generation fighters within the next decade.

He said if the IAF chose Lockheed Martin's world's best-selling fighter F-16 fighting falcons, it could "position India to be ready to receive advanced technologies incorporated in the F-35s". Lockheed Martin officials said a lot of the new technologies being tested on the F-35 would be leveraged in the new generation F-16 Block 50 fighters.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Apr 2009 17:50

Now, the "reports" suggest that the ToT would be the SAME for any US aircraft: most techs will be allowed and some techs - like the AESA - will NOT be allowed. It does not matter which aircraft the IAF is interested in, the ToT concept remains the SAME for ALL of them - per various reports.

Also, please note that the "F-16IN" POSTdates this article. (So, please do not go off on a tangent on that topic. Timelines are very important.)
Last edited by NRao on 21 Apr 2009 17:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Sajith_J » 21 Apr 2009 17:50

narayana wrote:Israeli Negotiations for F-35 Bogging Down Over Costs, Technology Concerns

While cost is no doubt a very real concern - the estimated price tag for the 75 F-35s is placed at $15.2 billion - much of the Israeli funding comes in the form of U.S. Foreign Military Financing (FMF) credits, which will total $11.425 billion from 2009 through 2012 alone.


Instead of spending 12 billion on AC which are not fully ready or subsystems like AESA, TVC not yet ready,why dont we just dump them and go for F-35,any of the current MRCA contenders are no match for F-35.

just have the below in IAF inventory
su-30 MKI
F-35
Pak Fa
LCA

some may ask why F-35 if we have PAK-FA?i think Pak-fa can be compared to F-22 and not F-35

That's right, Pak Fa is made for air superiority and F35 is for strikes and BVR combats, so both can operate alongside in IAF and IN. But LM offered us F35 only if we take F16 IN now, which is a ridiculous cause F16IN offer us not enough advantage against PAF F16 block 52+. And in the time we have to wait for F35 we could also develop MCA, which serves in the same role.
So if US wants a pice of this huge market they should offer us the best, otherwise we should take something from Europe. Those fighters seems to be better and are also able to use US weapons too.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Apr 2009 17:54

But LM offered us F35 only if we take F16 IN now


Not true.

The dynamics between the M/MRCA "F-16" and F-35 offer has changed. Even today I would think it is still fluid.

The above article shows that the LM is willing to untie the two and compete for BOTH the M/MRCA and the FGFA (which TODAY seems to be in the PAK-FA camp). What the US/LM would say/do today, about this dynamics, remains to be seen.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Apr 2009 18:11

Folks,

One MAJOR point WRT "ToT".

ToT does have a glow around it about the latest-and-greatest technologies that will be (or should be) absorbed into India. No two ways about that.

BUT, there is another technology that is even more enticing: supply chain. THIS is what the US companies bring to the table that most other are still catching up with (Russians I am told are out of sight on this page - I do not know how far it is true, but certainly seems so when one sees the problem India is having with "spare parts").

This (I am told) impacts India in two ways: internally to build better stuff (since this IT Tech will be applied elsewhere too) and equally importantly in the world supply chain. I am told India should witness a dramatic change in industrial production, etc.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Sajith_J » 21 Apr 2009 19:08

NRao wrote:
But LM offered us F35 only if we take F16 IN now


Not true.

The dynamics between the M/MRCA "F-16" and F-35 offer has changed. Even today I would think it is still fluid.

The above article shows that the LM is willing to untie the two and compete for BOTH the M/MRCA and the FGFA (which TODAY seems to be in the PAK-FA camp). What the US/LM would say/do today, about this dynamics, remains to be seen.

From the article you posted above:
He said if the IAF chose Lockheed Martin's world's best-selling fighter F-16 fighting falcons, it could "position India to be ready to receive advanced technologies incorporated in the F-35s".

If F35 really would be offered NOW, I bet it would win MMRCA easy and we would take large numbers for IAF and IN!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby trushant » 21 Apr 2009 19:55

BUT, there is another technology that is even more enticing: supply chain. THIS is what the US companies bring to the table that most other are still catching up with

This (I am told) impacts India in two ways: internally to build better stuff (since this IT Tech will be applied elsewhere too) and equally importantly in the world supply chain. I am told India should witness a dramatic change in industrial production, etc.


NRao sir,
Kindly explain your post with respect to supply chain.... are you refering to the supply chain expertise that Indian Cos would gain along with the ToT? You have termed it as "technology" which is thoda confusing. Also how do Americans differentiate themselves against their European or Russian counterparts in this regard.
Thanks.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Apr 2009 20:26

Sajith_J,

Has the "offer" of F-35 been ever taken off the table? I am not aware of that.

What has changed over time (I called it dynamics earlier) is the dependencies: only F-35 or F-16 + 5th Gen tech -> F-35. The F-35 was "offered" even when Min George Fernandez(sp?) was the DefMin. It peaked in 2007 (as posted above), then came the offer of a F-16 with F-35 techs, with the hope that they could perhaps even beat the FGFA commit with the Russians.

I have not seen anything that says that LM is not willing to offer the F-35 (an in, Boeing was not willing to offer the F-15).

trushant,

One of the biggest factors in reducing costs is have a finely tuned supply chain. SC essentially is very timely delivery of materials - from the very basic parts (raw materials, then to screws, nuts, bolts, etc, etc) to the entire AC.

Tech can be hardware (radar) or software (radar), so, SC tech is mainly software based.

US diff is in the fact that they have already built software that is very, very finely tuned. Their software is not only for building a component (AC, ships, etc), but also for maintenance (of ships at sea, etc).

It is not that others cannot catch up, just that it will take years for them to do so. So, the life cycle cost of a M/MRCA will take this into account too (as it should).

______________

when one takes a look at the bigger picture, the US does have a huge leg up on others in most, if not all, fields. IMHO India is a an excellent fit from this respect - software is where India excels. The ONLY reluctance that I have - one every Indian has - is US reliability at the political level. Do not have an answer for that. Even then I think India will benefit a great deal by going with the US - PROVIDED - India gets a baseline tech ToT - on which India should build and then differentiate herself.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 21 Apr 2009 20:30

Sajith_J,

One more think. Specifically WRT to IN, they cannot buy a plane and try and fit it into a ship. The aircraft AND its carrier go hand-in-hand. I do not know if any of the Indian proposed aircraft carriers would actually be able to handle the F-35. They may, but I am not sure about it.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Avid » 21 Apr 2009 20:50

ToT on F-35??? :rotfl:

They are spending $300 billion on the program for development and acquisition of 2500 odd a/c. That does not include the $$$ spent by partners.

Someone in DDM is having a wet dream, and it is being fed further by LM.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 21 Apr 2009 21:22

groannn... :( this MRCA thread runs in circles and further circles. the question of F-35 for the MRCA doesn't even arise. stop having day dreams and please stick to discussions on the CURRENT MRCA CONTENDERS.

the F-35's delivery schedule is such that ALL scheduled production will be fulfilling the orders that PARTNER nations have made. there is no question of anyone who is not even a partner will be allowed to slide into that schedule till 2018 at the very least. do you think that the IAF will sit around pottering, waiting till 2018-2020 so the first F-35 will be available for induction ? "yayyy F-35s!!"

F-35 delivery schedule

secondly, the F-35 is currently still under development, has NO fixed price as yet and ToT on the F-35 is just not going to happen. anyone who thinks that some statement made by a US neta on ToT is the gospel truth is delusional.

regarding the IN, they may look at the F-35, but then again, not before 2015 at the very earliest, because they'll have their hands full with the MiG-29K and N-LCA and the 2 carriers that they'll be inducting.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby tripathi » 21 Apr 2009 21:39

Computer Spies Breach Fighter-Jet Project
WASHINGTON -- Computer spies have broken into the Pentagon's $300 billion Joint Strike Fighter project -- the Defense Department's costliest weapons program ever -- according to current and former government officials familiar with the attacks.

Similar incidents have also breached the Air Force's air-traffic-control system in recent months, these people say. In the case of the fighter-jet program, the intruders were able to copy and siphon off several terabytes of data related to design and electronics systems, officials say, potentially making it easier to defend against the craft.

The latest intrusions provide new evidence that a battle is heating up between the U.S. and potential adversaries over the data networks that tie the world together. The revelations follow a recent Wall Street Journal report that computers used to control the U.S. electrical-distribution system, as well as other infrastructure, have also been infiltrated by spies abroad.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124027491029837401.html

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Bhaskar » 21 Apr 2009 22:06

I know this is off - topic but ... it is related to the Mig - 35 ...

Looks like the russians have raised the price of Vikramaditya again
http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-39164920090421?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-pays-1 ... 793-3.html

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 21 Apr 2009 22:53

Kartik wrote:groannn... :( this MRCA thread runs in circles and further circles. the question of F-35 for the MRCA doesn't even arise. stop having day dreams and please stick to discussions on the CURRENT MRCA CONTENDERS.

the F-35's delivery schedule is such that ALL scheduled production will be fulfilling the orders that PARTNER nations have made. there is no question of anyone who is not even a partner will be allowed to slide into that schedule till 2018 at the very least. do you think that the IAF will sit around pottering, waiting till 2018-2020 so the first F-35 will be available for induction ? "yayyy F-35s!!"

F-35 delivery schedule

secondly, the F-35 is currently still under development, has NO fixed price as yet and ToT on the F-35 is just not going to happen. anyone who thinks that some statement made by a US neta on ToT is the gospel truth is delusional.

regarding the IN, they may look at the F-35, but then again, not before 2015 at the very earliest, because they'll have their hands full with the MiG-29K and N-LCA and the 2 carriers that they'll be inducting.

I am agree with you.F-35 is not participant in MMRCA.
Moreever we are participating in PAK-FA,as a equal partner.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 22 Apr 2009 02:43

another way to beat the mmrca is by acquisition of old squadrons of diff air forces. israeli f-16s could be acquired if they are to move over to f35.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Guddu » 22 Apr 2009 05:06

tripathi wrote:Computer Spies Breach Fighter-Jet Project
WASHINGTON -- Computer spies have broken into the Pentagon's $300 billion Joint Strike Fighter project -- the Defense Department's costliest weapons program ever -- according to current and former government officials familiar with the attacks.

Similar incidents have also breached the Air Force's air-traffic-control system in recent months, these people say. In the case of the fighter-jet program, the intruders were able to copy and siphon off several terabytes of data related to design and electronics systems, officials say, potentially making it easier to defend against the craft.

The latest intrusions provide new evidence that a battle is heating up between the U.S. and potential adversaries over the data networks that tie the world together. The revelations follow a recent Wall Street Journal report that computers used to control the U.S. electrical-distribution system, as well as other infrastructure, have also been infiltrated by spies abroad.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124027491029837401.html


One implication of buying American is that their goods are more "network centric", and thus by definition susceptible to cyberwarfare trojans etc. I would not be surprised if Indian military computers become compromised. The Umrikuns cant do a thing against the cheeni cyber juggernaut.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 22 Apr 2009 06:56

The aspects of learning lies in the susceptibility of existing systems. If systems are fool proof and never exposed, it would never learn. Hence, its in the larger interest of the system security, a well known aspect of the system or a dmz-ized setup is always let free for attacks to study and learn.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 22 Apr 2009 07:15

I don't know whether India will get the F-35, but Pakistan most certainly will get it, as soon as numbers become available, as the "closest and most important ally in the war against terror".

Those of us who think that India can buy a special version of F-16 that can trump the version PAF has, will be disappointed. There is no way the US will let the PAF stay on an older version of F-16 while India buys a newer version. The PAF inventory will immediately be upgraded in the name of "restoring military balance on the subcontinent".

In any case, the IAF will not be allowed to fly any U.S. made aircraft against Pakistan.

If India has to buy A US aircraft for MMRCA, better buy the F-18 , under explicit understanding that they will be used only against China, and base them in the northeastern airbases. The F-16 has already been compromised by Pakis to China.

JMHO

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 22 Apr 2009 07:27

I don't know whether India will get the F-35, but Pakistan most certainly will get it, as soon as numbers become available, as the "closest and most important ally in the war against terror".

Those of us who think that India can buy a special version of F-16 that can trump the version PAF has, will be disappointed. There is no way the US will let the PAF stay on an older version of F-16 while India buys a newer version. The PAF inventory will immediately be upgraded in the name of "restoring military balance on the subcontinent".


I am not sure if I understand the logic here, but, even IF Pakistan get a F-35 it will be only around 2030+. IF it gets it earlier then someone who paid to get in line will have to wait. Is that possible - sure. Is it probable?

On the F-16 front, why is it so difficult to understand that no matter which aircraft India selects it will NOT be an off-the-shelf aircraft? And, that the chances of such an aircraft being "Indianized", over a period of time, are excruciatingly high. I would actually venture to predict that India would have technologies that cannot be matched even by the US in the future - for the region, based on ROI. You can already see it in the case of some missiles.

The ONLY segment, in this entire episode, that I have no faith in is Indian politicians - I am not yet convinced that India has a mature leader on the horizon. But then who care? And I guess it is a diff topic/thread.

In any case, the IAF will not be allowed to fly any U.S. made aircraft against Pakistan.


IF Pakistan exists?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Nihat » 22 Apr 2009 10:07

In any case, the IAF will not be allowed to fly any U.S. made aircraft against Pakistan.


I'm not so sure about that , in a future conflict if Pakis use their F-16's for sorties and ground attacks on Indian Positions and India is not allowed to use the full force of those American Jets against them then it would set Indo-Us relations back massively , clearly something which US will never want.

F-18 would come with a highly capable AESA and cost significantly lesser than either Rafale or Eurofighter and not to forget an amazing weapons package.

Who is to say though if it would be enough to negate the negative aspects of the Jet such as EUMA , ToT on Radar , source codes for weapons , possible limited use against Pukes.

IF it were not an american het , I would never even have thought twice about going for the F-18 as it is the most complete jet out of all the contenders and ticks most boxes.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby KrishG » 22 Apr 2009 11:02

Nihat wrote:
In any case, the IAF will not be allowed to fly any U.S. made aircraft against Pakistan.


I'm not so sure about that , in a future conflict if Pakis use their F-16's for sorties and ground attacks on Indian Positions and India is not allowed to use the full force of those American Jets against them then it would set Indo-Us relations back massively , clearly something which US will never want.

F-18 would come with a highly capable AESA and cost significantly lesser than either Rafale or Eurofighter and not to forget an amazing weapons package.

Who is to say though if it would be enough to negate the negative aspects of the Jet such as EUMA , ToT on Radar , source codes for weapons , possible limited use against Pukes.

IF it were not an american het , I would never even have thought twice about going for the F-18 as it is the most complete jet out of all the contenders and ticks most boxes.


Not all! The amount of ToT is still a big question mark. And do not believe that the Americans are ready to share the technology of the second best AESA in the world. APG-79 is the most important aspect of F/A-18SH and Boeing has already said that it is still skeptical about full ToT. I don't think a scaled down version used be of any particular interest for IAF & MoD considering that EF is offering full ToT including the new AESA which is still in the development stage. Again, the end point here is that will IAF or MoD be ready to wait for another 5-7 years for the full package and as you said at a higher price than SH.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 22 Apr 2009 11:17

I really don't understand all this fuss about AESA's TOT. We are already developing AESA tech with Israel, so who cares if we get AESA tot through MRCA or not?( Unless it is APG-79 of course, but that is not going to happen)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Nihat » 22 Apr 2009 11:29

Again, the end point here is that will IAF or MoD be ready to wait for another 5-7 years for the full package and as you said at a higher price than SH.


Thats where I think a little bit of compromise by IAF and MoD would come in good , the virtues of APG-79 are well proven and as was mentioned that we are already working towards building our own AESA , however there is no match for having APG-79 installed on 126 of our most modern and front line jets , the edge it gives us is just amazing.

Also , the US would be able to ramp up production if needed whereas I have my doubts if the likes of Saab , Dassault or Euro nations would be able to do so.

ToT is important but not worth leaving the SH AESA for.


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