Indo-UK: News & Discussion

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Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Vsudhir,
Mihir Bose is an old hand in documenting Anglais perfidy. In his book "THE MAGIC OF INDIAN CRICKET -- Cricket and society in India" posted here in full for the interested reader,
http://depositfiles.com/files/fbyo9du0x
he chronicles Anglais perfidy on the cricket field and beyond:
This early sign of arrogance was transformed into the much more pernicious belief that the British were the master race destined to rule India after 1857 when India came under direct Crown rule. It was the high tide of the new western imperialism when everything non-western was suspect and Britons, presenting themselves as Europeans, imposed their superior civilisation. This meant, as George Orwell put it, ‘You turn a Gatling gun on a mob of unarmed natives and then you establish “The law” which includes roads, railways and court-house.’ It was, of course, during the period of ‘a sort of forcible evangelising’ that cricket took root in India.

However, despite this, the British, starting with Hastings and Oriental Jones, were the catalysts of change in India. They brought new ideas, new ways of looking and reconnected India to the world. Its effect on the Indian, particularly the Hindu mind, was immense. The most significant reforms of Hinduism, removing some of its barbaric customs, for instance, were not carried out by the British but by Indians who looked at their own society with the help of British ideas and, finding it wanting, sought to change it.

But having helped open the Indian mind the British also chained it, put a ceiling on what Indians could aspire to. The classic illustration of this is the way Everest was named. It was named after George Everest, a British colonel who, along with William Lambton, helped map India, something that had not been done before. It was an awesome achievement and it also resulted in the first accurate measurements of the Himalayas, including the world’s highest peak which bears Everest’s name.

But who actually calculated that the mountain we call Everest was the highest in the world? It was certainly not Everest. In the early stages of the mapping it was denoted as Peak XV as efforts were made to measure it. In Calcutta worked a Bengali called Radhanath Sikdar, a young mathematical genius whose skills had been much admired by Everest. He was the Chief Computer and he was asked by Andrew Waugh, Everest’ successor as Surveyor-General of India, to provide the mathematical formula. This he did working out that Peak XV was 29,002 feet above sea level, making it the highest in the world. However, when it came to the name Waugh insisted it should be named Everest. He had already dismissed the names the Nepalis had for the mountain, saying Everest was a ‘household word among civilised, nations’, so for him to consider an Indian subordinate’s name for the peak was impossible. This incident illustrates British rule rather well. It allowed someone like Sikdar to rise, even become the Chief Computer, but his Indian name could not possibly be given to the highest peak in the world.

The other great feature of the British connection with India was that from the very beginning the British behaved as if they always occupied the moral high ground. You can get some idea of how deeply the British held to this notion during the Raj if you visit the third floor of the British Library in Euston. This is where the India Office Library is now located and a truly magnificent library it is, essential to anyone researching into the India of the last two hundred years. Here the British have not only carefully preserved the records of their rule but much of value relating to India. There is nothing like this available anywhere else. However, among the many wonderful things here, one set of publications is not much in demand, although in many ways it is the most revealing.

These are the annual reports presented to the British Parliament by the Secretary of State for India, summarising the activities of the government in India during the preceding year. The report underlined that the ultimate ruler of India was the British House of Commons and through this report the representatives of the British people, who owned India, could judge what had been done in their name. Such government reports are not uncommon and the red-bound books are full of the sort of dry government facts and figures you would expect. But what is really remarkable is the title the British gave these reports. They were not called the Annual Report on British India or anything like that. Their title was: Moral and Material Progress in India. The message was clear. The British in India were not only improving the economic condition of the Indians – a claim some British historians still maintain is valid – but they were also improving the morals of this barbaric, decadent, people.

Such a view became the orthodoxy in the middle of the nineteenth century. But even when the British were mere traders in India, and had no expectations of ruling the country, they projected themselves as people who were always in the right and considered all those who opposed them as usurpers.
....
Once the British converted themselves from traders to rulers in India then this desire to portray all their actions as being on a higher moral plane to that of the Indians became an almost obsessive British concern. The British were the conquerors, yet it was British heroes who always sought to occupy the moral high ground. This started right from the moment when Clive fought Siraj-ud-daulah at Plassey in June 1757 to launch the British Empire in India.

That victory on that rainy Thursday was more like the sort of one-day cricket international that the South African Hanje Cronje might have organised with the result fixed by judicious bribing before the match (battle) begun. It rained, which affected Siraj’s powder, there was some dare-devilry from Clive’s cavalry but the outcome was not in doubt because Clive had bribed Mir Jaffar, Siraj’s ambitious Commander-in-Chief, promising him the kingship of Bengal in exchange for remaining neutral. The result of the battle was Mir Jaffar replacing Siraj on the throne of Bengal and Clive and his men earning fortunes they could never have dreamt of. When Clive and his men entered Murshidabad, Siraj’s capital, he described it as ‘as extensive, populous and rich as the city of London, with the difference that there are individuals in the first possessing infinitely greater property than in the last’.

As it happens, the crucial battle of Plassey was preceded by not one deception but two, one of which involved a banker called Omichand who was the middle man between Clive and Mir Jaffar. At one stage he threatened to blow the whistle on the whole enterprise and tell Siraj unless he was paid very large sums of money. Clive and the English in Calcutta were convinced that Omichand was a crook. However, for their plan to work they knew they had to associate with him and, since everybody else was crooked, perhaps more so, they decided that the only way to deal with Omichand was to be as deceitful. They produced two versions of the treaty with Mir Jaffar. The true one, coloured blue, had no clause about any payment to Omichand, the false one, coloured red, with forged signatures had. Clive justified it on the grounds that Omichand was the ‘greatest villain upon earth’ and that it was necessary to deceive him in order to achieve the greater prize of securing these possessions for England. Many years later Clive’s action was the subject of a censure motion in the British House of Commons. The proposer, Colonel Burgoyne (who was later to suffer defeat at the hands of the Americans during their war of independence), denounced Clive for his looting of Bengal and his deception of Omichand. Clive defended himself in much the same style as Napolean justifying the shooting of Duc d’Enghein. The debate showed the English at their sanctimonious worst. Part of Burgoyne’s resolution was accepted, that Clive had made money, but he was also praised for ‘great and meritorious service to the country’. As Nirad Chaudhuri, Clive’s biographer, says, the Commons had ducked the question: how could they condemn Clive without condemning the very establishment of British power in India? ‘England could not retain the stolen goods if they called Clive a thief.’

It is very interesting to see how popular British histories deal with this seminal period. Little or no mention is made of the bribery of Mir Jaffar or Clive’s deception of Omichand, but much emphasis is laid on an event that preceded Plassey.
Read it along with
http://depositfiles.com/files/fa967xvrt
Boria Majumdar
LOST HISTORIES OF INDIAN CRICKET -- Battles off the Pitch

PS: Admittedly, cricket and sports are not the flavor of this thread, but the books by Mihir bose and Boria majumdar are far from sporting documentaries, they are a chronicle of the perfidious albion as seen from a sporting eye.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

Tks a ton Stan saar!

Will see that excerpts are disseminated in certain unbelieving forums onlee.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

But isn't Mihir Bose shooting his own credibility by saying

"The British had seized power in the subcontinent mainly from Muslim rulers".
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Keshav »

surinder wrote:But isn't Mihir Bose shooting his own credibility by saying

"The British had seized power in the subcontinent mainly from Muslim rulers".
He's probably referring to Bengal, where there were many Muslim rulers. Without Bengal, they would not have had the beachhead to deal with the Sikh and Maratha powers. They're approaches from the Western side had all been destroyed by both the Mughal and Maratha navy (people like Kanhoji Angre).
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

surinder wrote:But isn't Mihir Bose shooting his own credibility by saying

"The British had seized power in the subcontinent mainly from Muslim rulers".
Please read the full book, he says it in a specific context.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

surinder wrote:But isn't Mihir Bose shooting his own credibility by saying

"The British had seized power in the subcontinent mainly from Muslim rulers".
Technically British brought down the Moghul empire in 1857. Everyone knows that Moghuls were under the Maratha by 1750 and the Mughal was only confined to the Delhi-Agra area.

British got their first trading concession in 1610 from the Vijayanagar empire.
British were advisers to many small kingdoms by 1700. So were other colonial countries.

But British first entry to rule one area was in Bengal 1770s after the defeat of the French in Europe and in India. The balance among the small Indian kingdoms was gone once British gained supremacy against the other European powers.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

Stan_Savljevic wrote:Please read the full book, he says it in a specific context.
I haven't read the book, but the line is still misleading. I don't mean to split hairs, but a lot of TSP'ians & M's of India have created this delusion for themselves that they lost power to the Biritsh only. They don't wish to adertise that M's power in India had collapsed much before the British took over. The decisive British battles in India were either with the Marathas or the Sikhs. It is from them that India was taken. This point needs to be emphasized very srongly bus non-M's.

(You are still right, I haven't read the book and hence the context is lost on me.)
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

Acharya wrote:Technically British brought down the Moghul empire in 1857.
Yes, technically Jammu & Kashmir was an independent country under the Dogaras and never under the British rule. ;-)
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

surinder wrote:
Acharya wrote:Technically British brought down the Moghul empire in 1857.
Yes, technically Jammu & Kashmir was an independent country under the Dogaras and never under the British rule. ;-)
The British Royal crown took over after the defeat of Bahadur Shah from the East India Company. Till then it was the Company which was "controlling" the region.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

Keshav wrote:
surinder wrote:But isn't Mihir Bose shooting his own credibility by saying

"The British had seized power in the subcontinent mainly from Muslim rulers".
He's probably referring to Bengal, where there were many Muslim rulers. Without Bengal, they would not have had the beachhead to deal with the Sikh and Maratha powers. They're approaches from the Western side had all been destroyed by both the Mughal and Maratha navy (people like Kanhoji Angre).
Bengal, Awadh, Mysore, Delhi itself (all islamic rulers) left them in charge of much of the sub-continent
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Johann »

surinder wrote:I did not know abou them before, if I am posting stale well-known news, then I apologize. I was shocked to read that Tuskagee experiments were carried out on the Indians. Oh, the wages of slavery.

The Rawalpindi experiments were experiments involving use of Mustard gas carried out on hundreds of Indian soldiers by the British scientists from Porton Down. Experiments were carried out before and during the second world war in a military installation at Rawalpindi. These experiments began in the early 1930s and lasted more than 10 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rawalpindi_experiments
There was similar experimentation on thousands of British servicemen at Porton Down, starting in the 1930s up until the 1980s. In most cases up until the 1960s the risks of volunteering for this kind of testing were never really explained.

Most of the survivors were sickened are still fighting with MoD for compensation. I know of only one case so far where its come to court and they've been forced to pay out - to the family of an RAF airman in 1953 who died within an hour from direct exposure to nerve gas. He was told he would be helping research in to the common cold.

Australian and British servicemen are also still fighting compensation for deliberate exposure to radiation during the tests of the 1950s.

So even though it is a difficult fight, it would still be a good idea for the Indian government to support any surviving ex-servicemen, or the immediate families of ex-servicemen who are asking for compensation. There would certainly be mutual support with other veterans groups.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

This idea of "technically" keeping the Mughal king alive and warm the seat was used by the Marathas when the conquered Delhi, and then later in 1780's by Baghel Singh when occupied Delhi. The British followed suit and kep the seat warm till 1857. This has caused delusions to many M's as well as Hindus. For instane, one TSP writer wrote thus: "We musallmaans are more independent and less slavish because our slavery under the British lasted only 90 years (1857-1957), but the Hindu has been slave for 200 years under the British."
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

Thanks, J. It would be a good idea to trace families of Indians who may have "participated". it would be good to collect evidence and get compensation, if possible.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Johann »

Hi Surinder,

While the Mughal empire was in decline after Aurungzeb's mindless jihads, Muslim power in the Gangetic valley from Delhi to the Bay of Bengal was not overturned until the British arrived.

In Bengal you saw a wholesale turnover of administrative power from Muslims to Hindus, and the growth of Hindu landlords.

British retribution for 1857 fell largely on Muslims in Delhi and UP. Muslim economic, political and social power greatly decreased as lands were confiscated and auctioned off, usually to Hindus with capital.

Muslims stabilised further erosion of privilege and power when many of the notable class in decided to work with instead of against the Raj - although some like those at Deoband refused and retreated, waiting for better times.

Its these same classes who championed the cause of Pakistan, fearing further loss and decline.

Of course this story is different from Punjab, and the upper Deccan. That's not to say it couldnt have happened - but rather that the Gangetic valley was the core area of Muslim strength and economic power, followed by the lower Deccan. Mughal ascendancy over the Subcontinent had been broken, but they still had their core areas of strength. In some ways the situation had reverted to the Delhi Sultanate period.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Mughal empire was in decline after Aurungzeb - actually was only confined to Delhi-Agra.
The gangetic plain region was not under the Mughal rule but the local zamindars both Hindu and Muslim were in charge. They did not pay any tribute to the rulers.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

Johann,

It is easy to see if you look at the map and count either in square kilometers (or even in population and/or resources) the lands that the British had to seize from Muslim rulers and those they had to snatch from Hindu/Sikh. Or alternatively, you can count the most formidable and decisive battles the British had to fight in acquiring India---they are not with the Muslims rulers, they were with Marathas & Sikhs.

The proximity of time and confused history books has allowed a myth to prevail that British took over where the Mughal left. It is far more humiliating for some to have lost to indegenous uprisings of Marathas & Sikhs, than to the mighty British. For some ill-informed Hindus an argument I have heard quite commonly is that "Gee thanks for the British, for they got us rid of the Mughals". Which again is patently not true. If the British had never set foot on India, Indian had already taken care of the Mughal rule.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

Yours humbly coined the term "DER" argument. DER stands for Democracy, English & Railways. These are three things that supposedly we got from UK, and if they hadn't done us a favor by taking over India, we would not & could not have done either of these things.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Johann wrote: British retribution for 1857 fell largely on Muslims in Delhi and UP. Muslim economic, political and social power greatly decreased as lands were confiscated and auctioned off, usually to Hindus with capital.
Shri Mihir Bose uvacha:
The historian Michael Edwards has written that even after the British retook Delhi – having stripped and then shot out of hand the sons of the Mughal Emperor, Bahadur Shah – there was no stoppage ‘in the amount of innocent blood ruthlessly shed, for the city of Delhi was put to the sword, looted and sacked with the ferocity of a Nazi extermination squad in occupied Poland’.

Many of the English officers delighted in dreaming up ways they could degrade the Indian rebels before killing them. Muslims, forbidden pork by their religion, would be sewn into pork skins or smeared with pork fat before being executed, high-caste Hindus, forbidden to eat beef, had beef stuffed down their throats before they were hanged. It was common for Indians to be lashed to the mouth of a cannon and then blown apart by grapeshot. British officers encouraged rape and pillage before whole villages including old women and children were burnt and the dead were often strung up on trees, some of them resembling figures of eight. One huge banyan tree which still stands in Kanpur had no less than 150 corpses. It was in Kanpur that there had been a horrific massacre of British men, women and children, and Colonel James Neil exacted terrible revenge for this. He forced the rebels he had apprehended to lick with their tongues a square foot of the floor which contained the congealed blood, all the while being lashed by an English soldier before they were hanged.

In British eyes such things were justified because of the way the Indian rebels had behaved, but as A. N. Wilson has pointed out in The Victorians this is trying to establish a moral equivalence where there can be none:

The ruthlessness of British reprisals, the preparedness to punish Indians of any age, sex, regardless of whether they had any part in the rebellion is a perpetual moral stain on the Raj and it is no wonder that in most popular British histories these atrocities are suppressed altogether or glossed over with such a distasteful anodyne phrase as ‘dark deeds were done on both sides’. It is not to defend the murders of European women and children that one points out such remarks suggest an equivalence where none can exist . . . There can be no moral equivalence between a people, by whatever means of atrocity, trying to fight for their freedom to live as they choose, without the interference of an invading power, and that power itself using the utmost brutality to enforce not merely a physical but a political dominance over the people.
Yet even now, Wilson apart, when British historians deal with this period they cannot help trying to prove the moral superiority of the British over other people. Thus Niall Ferguson in Empire published in 2003, which seeks to show how Britain made the modern world and was a force for good, describes a scene from the revolt just after the British had lifted the siege of Lucknow. A young boy supporting a tottering old man approaches the gate of the city. But the British officer convinced all Indians whatever their age must be rebels brushes aside his plea for mercy and shoots the boy. Three times his revolver jams, the fourth times he succeeds and then the boy falls. Ferguson writes:

To read this story is to be reminded of the way SS officers behaved towards Jews during the Second World War. Yet there is one difference. The British soldiers who witnessed this murder loudly condemned the officer’s actions, at first crying ‘shame’ and giving vent to ‘indignation and outcries’ when the gun went off. It was seldom, if ever, that German soldiers in a similar situation openly criticised a superior.

So it’s all right then. Even when the British behave as badly as the SS, they are still morally superior to the Germans because there are always a few dissenting British voices.

The Indians have always found it difficult to cope with such British certainty about their moral superiority. Their answer has been to consistently play down their own dark side and pretend the atrocities they committed were a mistake or did not happen. Mention of incidents such as the Black Hole or the massacre of British men, women and children in the Bibighar in Kanpur is either ignored or glossed over.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

Regarding the comparison to Nazis:
Even when the British behave as badly as the SS, they are still morally superior to the Germans because there are always a few dissenting British voices.
Germans were stupid, the British are smart. If the British had to do what the Germans had, they would done the following: First and foremost launch a media campaign about their high moral goals and great fight for greatness of humanity, how just their cause is and how high their morals are. First they would have reduce the undesirables (Jewws/Gypsies) to penury and slavery, then express their Xtian desire to help them (while disdaining them for not being up to the mark). Then find fissures amongs the Jewws/Gypsies, or occupy Poland and encourage the Poles (behind the scenes, of course) to cleanse the undesirable. They would co-opt sections of the undesirables to descredit the remaining undesirables. Then express outrage at the Poles and try a few of the Poles for doing this. Then when/if the truth starts leaking, express indignation with elabortely flowery speech of how a few bad apples have stained the great German nation, but emphasize they are an exception to an otherwise noble cause.

Of course, Germans were fools, they did an open genocide and got a mark of Cain on their forehead for the rest of history. British got more killed by inaction in India, but got a crown for their great empire.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

One reason why I emphasize the proper credit for destroying the Mughaals is the following: It changes ones view dramatically of the British from one who saved India's Hindus from the Mughals to the ones who quashed a nascent Indian resurgence against Iszlaam.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

the british and german comparison is chronologically problematic, in mid nineteenth century, everybody committed terrible atrocities - often with a racial dimension. in the mid twentieth, many fewer did. there was no pretence in victorian england about the savagery of the reprisal on the 'mutiny'. it was much later when social norms changed in europe that these acts were seen as excessive. the germans committed atrocities mostly on people they considered inferior races, they treated whom they thought of as comparable races with more 'humanity'.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Lalmohan wrote:the british and german comparison is chronologically problematic, in mid nineteenth century, everybody committed terrible atrocities - often with a racial dimension. in the mid twentieth, many fewer did. there was no pretence in victorian england about the savagery of the reprisal on the 'mutiny'. it was much later when social norms changed in europe that these acts were seen as excessive. the germans committed atrocities mostly on people they considered inferior races, they treated whom they thought of as comparable races with more 'humanity'.
British came to India which is a foreign country for them and doing atrocities on Indians in the 19th century is still bad. Indians were not attacking them in UK
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by shyamd »

Acharya wrote: British came to India which is a foreign country for them and doing atrocities on Indians in the 19th century is still bad. Indians were not attacking them in UK
A singaporean remarked to me recently, "Why are the Indians soo kind to the brits?!"
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

the british and german comparison is chronologically problematic, in mid nineteenth century, everybody committed terrible atrocities - often with a racial dimension. in the mid twentieth, many fewer did. there was no pretence in victorian england about the savagery of the reprisal on the 'mutiny'. it was much later when social norms changed in europe that these acts were seen as excessive. the germans committed atrocities mostly on people they considered inferior races, they treated whom they thought of as comparable races with more 'humanity'.

Lalmohan, you might have indeed gone native. Firstly, "the germans committed atrocities mostly on people they considered inferior races, they treated whom they thought of as comparable races with more 'humanity'". Now tell us, how was the British act different?

Secondly, atrocities did not go down because of a new morality erupting and illuminating the world. It went down for two reasons: the downtrodden developed ability to retailiate. Secondly, many of those pesky races were all finished, there wasn't much to finish. Pesky races like, Native American, Native S. Americans, Native Australians, Native Maoris were all practically finished. Indians, Arabs, etc. developed balls and made it inherently expensive to suppress them.

"there was no pretence in victorian england about the savagery of the reprisal on the 'mutiny'." The savagery of first conquering India and then employing the terror apparatus to keep Indians as slaves was elaborate and extensive. The full extent of that was known to those who know, but carefully hidden from public eye. Mishra has pointed out that so extensive was the repsisals after 1857 that Indian population went down. A Harvard historian had written a revealing book about British Gulags in Africa. She wrote of an extensive effort to keep the Gulag a secret. The Black of Hole of Calcuatta was immortalized, but the Black Hole of Amritsar was never mentioned.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Lalmohan wrote:the british and german comparison is chronologically problematic, in mid nineteenth century, everybody committed terrible atrocities - often with a racial dimension. in the mid twentieth, many fewer did. there was no pretence in victorian england about the savagery of the reprisal on the 'mutiny'. it was much later when social norms changed in europe that these acts were seen as excessive. the germans committed atrocities mostly on people they considered inferior races, they treated whom they thought of as comparable races with more 'humanity'.
Yes, agreed to some sense. But the point is not that. The uppity of the British (and in extension, the gora-log) to chide India and Indians for evils of the historical past such as casteism, suttee (sic), thuggery etc., somuchso that they pull India to the "genocide-watch" committees left, right and centre even today, when the fact is that these same oiseaules have committed the worst-type of human right violations ever-documented in the annals of history in their spree of Christianizing (and humanizing) the heathens and in the name of revenge is both amusing and hypocritical.

When we should be talking about repentance of the gora-log for their insidious acts in the past as well as the current, we are sitting here and discussing "friendship" with these idiots and answering their jibes at our problems, which are far less serious than their acts of perfidy. The bottomline is that our rendition of history has been vociferously subdued both by material destruction of historical records and by the Brits' stealing away our historical records/wealth to the UK so that even to do material research on our country's past, we need to go to the UK and beg these oiseaules for permission. Why dont the Brits' start over by handing our historical wealth back to us? Forget all that,
No group of foreigners have had a more loaded agenda than the British and the legacy they have left behind, of which cricket is only a part, is a historical minefield as much for the British as for the Indians. Today, some sixty years after Indian freedom, there are many interpretations of British rule but very few conclusions to which both the British and the Indians can subscribe. Every now and again in the most unexpected of situations history can jar. In 2002, when the Queen Mother died, the British media made much of the fact that she was the Last Empress of India and during the mourning period her jewels, such as the Star of India, were much on display, leading to a certain amount of nostalgia about India, the Jewel in the Crown. This provoked a very pained response from Kuldip Nayar, a journalist and former Indian High Commissioner to the UK who came on BBC radio’s prestigious Today programme to complain that such British wallowing in imperial nostalgia was meant to remind the Indians that they were once a conquered people.

Contrast this with how the British and the Americans react to their shared past. A few months after the Queen Mother’s death, Tony Blair, the British Prime Minister, addressed a joint session of the US Congress – the first British Prime Minister to do so since Winston Churchill – and a reward for having supported George Bush’s policy on Iraq. During his speech he made a reference to the war of 1812 when British troops invaded the then young republic of the USA and burned down Washington. Blair apologised for that British action making a joke of it and the Americans joined in the general laughter. But that was an event in the midst of a war that the Americans had started. The British action could be said to be retaliation for the American destruction of public buildings in York (present-day Toronto).

I, personally, think such historical apologies are ridiculous and unjustified. How far back are we meant to go to apologise for what our ancestors did? But if ever an apology was needed it was for the Amritsar massacre of 1919 when the British general Reginald Dyer ordered his troops to fire at an unarmed, peaceful, Indian crowd killing or wounding more than 1,500 men, women and children. This, as opposed to killing during wars, was an unclean killing. However, when in 1997 the Queen and Prince Philip visited the site, the Queen did not apologise, merely signed the visitors book at the memorial. Philip, for good measure, questioned the figures for the dead listed on the memorial. As he passed the memorial which spoke of 2,000 being martyred he said, ‘That’s wrong. I was in the navy with Dyer’s son.’ Philip’s remarks angered the Indians and coming on top of other gaffes by the British turned this royal visit, meant to mark the 50th anniversary of Indian independence, into a disaster with much bad blood between the two countries. The then Indian Prime Minister described the British as ‘a third rate power’ and Indians cancelled a speech the Queen was supposed to make, which angered the British. A spokesman for the Indian Foreign Ministry Talmiz Ahmed, who had been press secretary in London some years earlier, reacted strongly to the British criticism, saying:

This is British ineptitude. I think they scheduled a speech for her in the programme assuming they would be able to bully Indians into acceptance of something completely without precedence. When they did not succeed, they thought they could find a way out by blaming bungling Indian officials.
British newspapers like the Times condemned the Indians saying ‘the government in Delhi had let down its people’. India, said the Thunderer, had abandoned its own deeply rooted cultural and religious traditions of how to treat a guest and ‘slipped back into the habits of awkwardness that Indians and the world believed that it had outgrown’.

The whole affair illustrated how very differently the British view their relationship with its two former colonies. With one it has a special, we are all one family relationship, with the other it is still, three hundred years after the initial contact, more often a case of strangers tiptoeing around each other.
And noone here is even talking about providing refuge and succor to anti-Indians of every possible tripe. The underlying lesson is this: We cannot have peace with the UK based on our past dealings, we have been wronged too much to say shanti-shanti and walk away as if nothing happened. We need a new beginning and as always, new beginnings start from an ending of some sort. My personal prayer is for the material destruction of UK in all forms and types so that we can begin afresh, a new chapter. Call it the curse of the evil, angry yindoo....
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

However, when in 1997 the Queen and Prince Philip visited the site, the Queen did not apologise, merely signed the visitors book at the memorial. Philip, for good measure, questioned the figures for the dead listed on the memorial. As he passed the memorial which spoke of 2,000 being martyred he said, ‘That’s wrong. I was in the navy with Dyer’s son.’ Philip’s remarks angered the Indians and coming on top of other gaffes by the British turned this royal visit, meant to mark the 50th anniversary of Indian independence, into a disaster with much bad blood between the two countries.
That g@@nd00 Philip actually disputed the Jallianwala bodycount on an official visit to the site?? Typical $hitsh good taste on display, am sure. Betters even the classical $hitsih good taste displayed by Milipede lecturing us yindians from on site in Mumbai about how our J&K stance has caused 26/11. :evil:

But again, WTF. :?: Why isn't philip g@ndu's and queen maadar's arrant arrogance on that occasion better known amongst ordinary yindians? Heck, I'm hearing about it only now!

Why are our aam janta denied the privilege of making an informed decision about how yindia should treat $hitish interests here going forward?
British newspapers like the Times condemned the Indians saying ‘the government in Delhi had let down its people’. India, said the Thunderer, had abandoned its own deeply rooted cultural and religious traditions of how to treat a guest and ‘slipped back into the habits of awkwardness that Indians and the world believed that it had outgrown’.
bl00dy b@stards! And quite literally, with a majority of native UKstani children born or living in homes out of wedlock, Great $hitain is indeed raising a generation and a nation of ********. Like the yanks say,
truth is sufficient defense against slander.
Meanwhile the $hitish press (the conomist for one) despite paying generous obseisence to the rise of PRC doesn't forget to berate this rising level of 'nationalism based on a vinctimization complex over past wrongs' they see in PRC. Essentially, the PRC folks remember well the games the $hits played in PRC in the colonial era. And the $hits haven't managed to do a McCaulay there. So they're scared, I guess. When PRC does get into a sufficiently strong position, they may choose to repay $hitain in the same coin.

Well, if PRC does so, they should know India will understand.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/au ... deepramesh
What they said about the 1857 First War of Independence

Charles Dickens: "I wish I were commander-in-chief in India ... I should proclaim to them that I considered my holding that appointment by the leave of God, to mean that I should do my utmost to exterminate the race."

Karl Marx: "The question is not whether the English had a right to conquer India, but whether we are to prefer India conquered by the Turk, by the Persian, by the Russian, to India conquered by the Briton."

L'Estaffette, French newspaper: "Intervene in favour of the Indians, launch all our squadrons on the seas, join our efforts with those of Russia against British India ...such is the only policy truly worthy of the glorious traditions of France."

The Guardian: "We sincerely hope that the terrible lesson thus taught will never be forgotten ... We may rely on native bayonets, but they must be officered by Europeans."
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

Indians were often tried for smallest of crimes and sentenced to be hung, or given kala pani. Some 70 Naamdharis were tied to the cannon and blown to smithrens. You could get caught and brutally treated for merely suggest an offence to the British. Contrast this what happened to Dyer.

Gen. Dyer was responsible for such murder, but all the Indinas got was a white wash of flowery shakesperean speeches in parliament (which are quoted with glee by Hisotrians). But in the background he was promoted, retired into a peaceful respectful life in England. He received an official state funeral when he died. Anyways, after Jallianwala massacre, his supporters raised money for his retirement. How much did they raise? They raised equivalent of 30 years of his salary (an already bloated salary, which was standard for Britishers in India). He became a man of independent means, able to support his hobby of inventing a range-finder device.

Well, if you don't look carefully, all you see is those flowery pariliamentary speeches by Churchill decrying Dyer and calling it an exception to the otherwise great noble rule of the British. But the true lies behind the enormous ground support he had, as evinced by his supporters (many of them were earning in India). Indian blood paid well for him.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by surinder »

British newspapers like the Times condemned the Indians saying ‘the government in Delhi had let down its people’.
Note, India did not let down Britain, it let down its own people. This is the stuff propaganda & denial is made of. It is subtle, but very effective. Always have other fight it out, no one fights UK, they fight each other.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

In 2002, when the Queen Mother died, the British media made much of the fact that she was the Last Empress of India and during the mourning period her jewels, such as the Star of India, were much on display
A nitpick - the Star of India (a sapphire found in Sri Lanka) is on display at the American Museum of Natural History in NYC. It was never the property of the Queen Mother.

http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/expedit ... /star.html
The then Indian Prime Minister described the British as ‘a third rate power’ and Indians cancelled a speech the Queen was supposed to make, which angered the British.
IIRC, the Queen wanted to use the Darbar Hall in the Rashtrapati Bhavan.
Her father George VI had requested a Darbar but it had been refused.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Stan_Savljevic wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/au ... deepramesh
What they said about the 1857 First War of Independence

Charles Dickens: "I wish I were commander-in-chief in India ... I should proclaim to them that I considered my holding that appointment by the leave of God, to mean that I should do my utmost to exterminate the race."

Karl Marx: "The question is not whether the English had a right to conquer India, but whether we are to prefer India conquered by the Turk, by the Persian, by the Russian, to India conquered by the Briton."

L'Estaffette, French newspaper: "Intervene in favour of the Indians, launch all our squadrons on the seas, join our efforts with those of Russia against British India ...such is the only policy truly worthy of the glorious traditions of France."

The Guardian: "We sincerely hope that the terrible lesson thus taught will never be forgotten ... We may rely on native bayonets, but they must be officered by Europeans."
Some of the Americans who have been brain washed said to me that because of the British the Hindus were saved from the Muslims. British stopped the conversion of India to Muslim country.
Recently another american told me in a conversation about genocide of the Hindus by the Muslims in the past history. The other american was surprised and asked if it was true. I replied that it was the best kept secret in the western world.

Falsifying Indian history is necessary for the British as well as the Pakistani muslims.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vsudhir »

G-8's first bankruptcy?

Chan Akya in Asia Times. Prone to some spicing up, I;d have said in saner times. Times are far from normal though.

Folks have remarked on the T&EC forum abt how UKstani credit rating magically continues its AAA march whilst maudy's downgraded the outlook on India's. Turns out UKstan is in some semi-serious dudu indeed.
Gilts prices fell for a second day in a row on Thursday amid increasing alarm over the country's rising debt levels. Investors took fright after the government's annual Budget on Wednesday revealed borrowing would soar to levels not seen since the second world war, with a debt to gross domestic product ratio rising close to 80% from today's 50% .

Investors also questioned the credibility of the UK government's growth forecasts, which are far more optimistic than International Monetary Fund estimates. Benchmark 10-year gilt yields, which have an inverse relationship with prices, have risen about a quarter of a point since Alistair Darling, the UK chancellor, unveiled the annual Budget on Wednesday.

Ten-year gilt yields rose to 3.51% at the London close - up from 3.31% at the market close on Tuesday - as fears have risen that investors may start to sell because they believe the UK economy is likely to deteriorate further. Rising debt levels and a record amount of government bond issuance at ฃ220 billion this financial year - a 50% increase on last year - have also sparked fears the UK could lose its prized triple A credit status.

If this were to happen, it would represent a disaster for the gilts market that needs the top-notch rating to attract international investors and domestic pension funds.


Well, well....I won't be surprised if Maudy's maintains AAA rating even after a sovereign default onlee ..."hiccup, ahem, cough".

But yes, turns out UKstani conomy does have surprising resilience and internal strengths that shall yet again prove critics wrong. ("yay!")
[Ukstan]was among the first to have a failed bank, Northern Rock collapsing just a few weeks after Germany's IKB Deutsche and Saschen LB in the late summer of 2007 (see Rocking the land of Poppins, Asia Times Online, September 22, 2007) and the first economy to go into an actual recession in this cycle. Its central bank was the first to directly support banks' interbank borrowings, the country was the first to aggressively cut rates and, lastly, it was the first country to go in for quantitative easing (QE). Not being composed of complete imbeciles, the UK government also recognizes that its actions will cause significant financial hardship. Additional borrowing that doubles last year's total will fill the gaping hole of 220 billion pounds (US$323 billion) in this year's budget. Mind you, this from a country that has already had the ignominy of a failed bond auction, and perhaps a whole lot more to come its way once the rating downgrades are baked into the cake.

How does it choose to counter the costs of bailing out: does it suggest a means of wiping out government waste (if you will pardon the tautology) or does it plan to provide greater incentives for savings? Neither, as it turns out: the government's magic bullet is to increase the top tax rate in the country from 40% to 50% in a move designed to raise a further 6 billion pounds in taxes (a piffling 3% of the government deficit).

So let me get this right. You are the finance minister of a country where the number of people making a decent disposable income, say over US$100,000 per year, has sharply declined over the past year. You have already spent hundreds of billions on bailing out your sick banks and even sicker industrial companies. Now, facing a deep recession, you choose to further reduce the disposable income of your most productive citizens to drive home a political point?
x-posting from the T&EC phorum.
If (and its an IF after all) UKstani conomy gets flushed down the tubes, just remember that it couldn't have happened to nicer beebal onlee.

And all this while the one clear, pure solution to all of UKstan's conomic (and social and spiritiual, I must add) problems has never been clearer.......Import more Bakis!
On that note, lez all raise a prayer......AoA indeed.

Update:
Might as well clarify, lest moi be accused of victimization-driven revenge-mongering fantasia.....!!!

British economy shrinks at fastest pace for 30 years during first quarter of 2009
Gross domestic product (GDP) fell by 1.9pc in the first quarter ... a sharper decline than the 1.6pc fall in the final quarter of 2008 when Britain officially entered recession.

It was the sharpest quarterly fall in GDP since 1979, when it fell by 2.4pc in the third quarter.
Yawn, you might say, 1.9% ain't too bad. Waz the big freakin' deal, eh?

Well, here's the thing....
In the U.S. the headline GDP number is the real (inflation adjusted) quarterly change, seasonally adjusted at an annual rate (SAAR). In Britain and the EU, the headline GDP number is the real quarterly change, but it is not the annual rate. So a 1.9% decline in the U.K. is about the same as a 7.6% decline (SAAR) in the U.S.
Ouch onlee indeed.

More. An excellent read from Will Buiter. Folks'll do well to take this guy seriously. He's classically understated, unlike an Ambrose Evans blowhard and he knows his stuff.

Darlin's doing his best to clean up Brown's mess

A brown pants mess, u mean?
Mr Darling is doing his best to clean up the mess left by his predecessor, Gordon Brown. The fiscal profligacy of Mr Brown, now prime minister, after New Labour’s first term and his leadership since 1997 in the global financial regulatory race to the bottom have left the UK suffering from multiple imbalances. It is in its worst fiscal shape ever in peacetime - in the G8, only the US and Italy come close. It has a bloated financial sector, including a banking sector that is too large to save unless state support is restricted to the UK high street banking bits of UK-based global banking groups. It has a distorted and moribund housing sector and excessively indebted households.
During the next couple of years the UK will run public sector deficits of 12 per cent of gross domestic product or over - figures historically associated in peacetime only with developing countries or emerging markets en route to an International Monetary Fund programme. {AoA $hitain finally facing turd world descriptors? Someone wake up the haughty conomist rag, the telegraph and the FT plz.... :mrgreen: } Large deficits will persist into the second half of the next decade. The structural deficit for the next few years is at least 7 per cent of GDP. Not counting the fiscal cost of the banking sector rescue, public debt will reach 80 percent of GDP two years from now.
12% on-balance-sheet deficits? Does Moody know?? And what happens to those rising bond (or gilt==govt bonds in UKstani parlance) yields when even Moody's AAA goody's can't sustain much longer eh?
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

Man tied up in car filled with gas canisters sparks mass evacuation
West Midlands Police said the Asian man had been put in the car against his will and told that it contained a bomb.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Keshav »

Gerard wrote:Man tied up in car filled with gas canisters sparks mass evacuation
West Midlands Police said the Asian man had been put in the car against his will and told that it contained a bomb.
The UK should use this to show what the extremists are doing to the "Asian" community. It's a great way to make sure a split occurs between the hardliners and the moderates who might be silent supporters.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by shyamd »

In all likelyhood this was probably the regular drug gang wars. Kidnappings in this business are becoming increasingly hugely popular, but hardly ever make it to the news. Welcome to Britains Drug problem.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Keshav »

shyamd wrote:In all likelyhood this was probably the regular drug gang wars. Kidnappings in this business are becoming increasingly hugely popular, but hardly ever make it to the news. Welcome to Britains Drug problem.
I haven't read any articles on the subject. What are the major cartels operating in Britain?
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

no, i haven't gone native - definitely not when it comes to historic barbarism. and if you actually read what i have written, i have not condoned any of these atrocities nor asked for their forgiveness. i have only given them a historical perspective and contrasted some of the comparisons being used - which in my opinion are not like for like, e.g. victorian britain and nazi germany.

in the victorian era, germans were also committing genocide in namibia and belgians in the congo - and to europeans - black and brown lives were inferior. in the 20th century, european society had moved some way from this viewpoint but not as far as it has today. the wholesale slaughter of gypsies, jews and mentally handicapped people may not have worried too many in 1840's britian either, but it did in the 1940's. the social upheaval and trauma of WW2 means that today's europeans have developed a different mindset and standards on human rights and genocide and related issues.

my point (not relevant to this specific discussion) is that the world changes and changes fast. today, as indians we need to adapt and move forward and not live in the past ALTHOUGH WE MUST UNDERSTAND IT. we are not facing the east india company as our deadliest foe, we are facing jihadists and khilafatists - under the present circumstances, we need to align our interests where it is beneficial.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Sachin »

surinder wrote:Gen. Dyer was responsible for such murder,
Chanced to read the biography of Brig.Gen Dyer. Was surprised to find that Dyer was not born and brought up in any part of UK. IIRC, his family was initially settled down in Murree and later moved into Shimla side. His first long term visit to UK, was when he had to do the training at Sandhurst.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Keshav »

Ajatshatru wrote:"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Remembering and obsessing are two different things. Far too often, it is the latter on BRF.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by shyamd »

Keshav wrote:I haven't read any articles on the subject. What are the major cartels operating in Britain?
2,800 crime gangs ravage UK streets

For kidnapping, google around for articles. Its a big problem, but it only occurs with gangsters/drug dealer gangs etc. Its the cool thing to do now for these sort of people.
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