Miscellaneous Pictures - Indian Military

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 20 Apr 2009 00:45

I am going to make a few observations here.

1) The woman security personnel at WB CM's speech. Looks like the communists in WB are not Kosher enough for the Naxalites? WOW!!! Also, the lady's bicep/tricep looks preety big. Must work out big time. Now, how many of the jokers here in BR can match that?

2) The so called "American" way of holding the personal weapon.
Well, it a may not be the best way to hold the weapon but from the accumulated combat experience using fire arms they have come to appreciate the present form is what they are most comfortable with. Others may disagree. From my personal experience, I am also very comfortable with that position. Most often ground combat took place (my experience) just about parallel to the ground I was positioned at that particuler moment. The angular distance (to use physics parlance) for the barrel of the weapon to be swung around from position pointing upwards into the direction of combat is much bigger. It would be more so if the weapon is held on the shoulder pointing upwards and backwards. In my experience it could save me a mili second or some such. But then it is also culture. If you are comfortable in the position you have been doing for a long time then I aint gonna argue on this. The nature of combat is a little different too. The Indian soldier is soldiering in an environment with a lot of vegetation and undergrowth while I operated in a very urbanized environment. Perhaps he would not want to have his barrel pointed at his comrade behind some bush.

2) Straps are important. There have been countless attempts by Palestinian arabs to snatch away weapons from Israeli soldiers especially from female soldiers. Particulars females who are not very tall. Palestinians see the women soldiers as vulnerable. (I am quite surprise to see that lady with the Skorpion without a strap). We use long straps for ease of use and when needed we just roll around our hands for tight grip. This is where I learned the lesson of the advantage of broad/wide strap. I hated the broad strap and had a customized thin/narrow strap. In the mid summers heat and sandy dusty desert, the narrow strap can be a real discomfort cutting through your skin however tough a trooper you are. I am speculating that the dog chain could be discomforting too?

3) One of the poster mentioned of seeing soldiers holding the weapon away from the body with both hands while discharging it. In some situation, you discharge your weapon not because you want to deliver accurate fire. You discharge with massive bursts. To provide cover and also partly because you may not know the exact location of the intended target. In such situation it has happened that soldiers if caught in such position some may discharge fire in similar way. It may expand a lot of ammo though and in the IDF, its religion for us not to waste ammo. Its inherited from the days of War of Independance when we had continually faced ammo shortage and the command threatened court martial on whoever fired their guns in auto mode. That does not mean there are no rule breakers.

4) The poster is right about bullets falling from the air. If a gun is fired at 90 degs, the bullet will go up straight, deccelerating all the way till it reaches its peak and would then fall back accelerating with vengeance. In theory the velocity it would reach ground would be just about the velocity it left the gun barrel. In another words, the Abdul who fired 90 degs upwards would be dog food if he had stood at the same spot for the next few minutes. If it was a fifty cal, his family would have chimichanga for dinner if they are cannibals. I have seen numerous cases or similar ones. Bullet holes in tv sets, sattelite antenas, dead goats, wounded goats, bullet holes in mellons, fruits, car roofs etc. There is also a scene captured and once posted on youtube where Hamas terrorists fired into the air and the bullets hit the power lines which then collapsed resulting in some of those caught in it being electrocuted. Brilliant indeed. Oh...I know of people (Palestinians) who have seen people getting killed by falling bullets in wedding parties.

However you hold it, if don't respect the weapon the weapon will not respect you.
Avram

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Apr 2009 03:23

asprinzl wrote:I am going to make a few observations here.

1) The woman security personnel at WB CM's speech. Looks like the communists in WB are not Kosher enough for the Naxalites? WOW!!! Also, the lady's bicep/tricep looks preety big. Must work out big time. Now, how many of the jokers here in BR can match that?

Which one Avram?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Apr 2009 03:28

rkhanna,

Every professional soldier has a reason for holding the weapon as they do. Little details matter including as Avram pointed out, the conditions in which you operate. So lets not go into ABCD army does it this way or that way because it is comparing apples and oranges. While to us armchair jarnails and rear admirars, it might not look good or cool and we might think why is IA not following west which obviously know so much about handguns, remember that in the end, the man on the ground knows best. Yes there are bad habits but it is not limited to any particular army (whether east or west) and neither is it institutionalized in any particular army.

Here's a request to you: Please don't quote incidents like the 8 SF men dying in Haphruda forests, as examples of requirement for better training in weapons handling in IA - sometimes men die facing fearful odds, they are human too and in this particular incident, training was not found wanting. Don't just form your own assumptions from some incidents and post them as fact here. If you dont have details or specific information actually supporting your assumptions, please don't make them up.

Finally, its quite amusing that you think that MP doesn't know the 'proper' way of handling a handgun (the ex-NSG guy you are talking about, training the Maharashtra Police)

While no doubt NSG equipment and training can be improved (and it is but needs to be faster), even now do you have any idea what is the proficiency of NSG shooters? If not, try to find out, you will be surprised at their skill. However, in case you were looking for a movie style storming and 3 mins. operation with flash bangs and choppers hovering, sorry to disappoint you but thats how the real thing rolls. And in case you didn't notice, the terrorists this time were neither amateurs with a grievance nor hostage takers - they were there to kill (as much as possible) and be killed (as late as possible) period. If you have specific examples of which SF/HRT units have tackled that and trained for it please post it in the SF thread. If not, then please dont post your assumptions formed on the basis of pretty pictures and Discovery Channel.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 20 Apr 2009 05:17

Mr. Bose. the discusion started with holding a rifle and now its digressed to far. I think i have offended you in some way and i am sorry . I think you misunderstand me. I dont want the Indian army to follow the west that is not my intention. But simply saying they are doing right is again a fallacy. I come from a long line of serving personel and i know everything is not all right. I am also a little too old for things to "look cool".

I do not mean to make assumptions on the SF incident. I merely asking for a need to question. Is it really that the situation went FUBAR or could we have done something better. It was an example thats all. The question comes from certain knowledge of dilution in our NSG over the past 5 or so years. Told to me so by ex NSG officers. I have read about new SF battalions being raised in a hurry so i am asking could it be that dilution in training has trickled down there too?. Anyways it was an example for the need to question thats all.

As for assuptions. Having lost 2 family members to various conflicts i guess i feel i have earned the right in some small measure.

on the MP gun handling incident. No nothing wrong with what he is doing. all i am saying is that it can be done better. Concepts , Tactics , Theories continue to evolve in all areas of life. The Indian army in some areas has been stagnant. This is not an assumption is merely an observation. And i do know very well the proficiency of NSG shooters. I have seen it first hand. I have visited the NSG Raising day exhibition a few years back that is held for the press and media. And no i dont mean for any movie style storming of a 800 room hotel. Its just that 60 hours is a bit much. So again as a citizen of this country i reserve the right to question. Do keep in mind that the Army and NSG and others are not infallible.

Why am i questioning. because i do believe that a systemic rot has been introduced into our military over the past decade or so and its saddening because its one of the few institutions in this country that i am truely proud of.

Anyways again i apologize for any slight caused to you. I shall end this discussion here on my part.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Apr 2009 09:23

^^^ rkhanna ji, No offense was taken and I know you did not intend any either, hence no question of apologies - B-R is the place to have a vigorous discussion (and mijjile maalish, if one believes the denizens of BENIS thread

) however my apologies, if my post came out too strong. Some of the points you make are valid and so is your right to question and demand answers. Yes the issues with NSG are very true and quite sad actually. While their basic training is still great, they have not evolved or upgraded their equipment and in some cases tactics (compounded by lack of vital equipment). In the end it is all a continuous learning curve so one needs to keep improving - I guess that it true for most things in life! MP himself has been quite critical of the unit he helped co-found (refer to his blog posts others B-R members have linked to, in the SF thread - some of the things he said there may be unfair but the rest is quite valid). As re. the dilution of SF with this penchant for en masse conversion of Para batts. into SF, all one can do is

.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Apr 2009 09:40

Raja Bose wrote:
asprinzl wrote:I am going to make a few observations here.

1) The woman security personnel at WB CM's speech. Looks like the communists in WB are not Kosher enough for the Naxalites? WOW!!! Also, the lady's bicep/tricep looks preety big. Must work out big time. Now, how many of the jokers here in BR can match that?
Which one Avram?

how could you miss her ??

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 97#p655097
btw, that's a one-point sling is it not ?

as an aside, could someone give me a primer on the types of slings and their advantages/disadvantages ? In the small arms thread, not here !

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Apr 2009 10:36

^^^ Thats what I meant...which one....the one with mother-in-law triceps or the one with the skorpion??

The one with the mother-in-law triceps may not be as strong/fit as she looks whereas the slim one is probably much stronger than she looks. Anyhow no more discussion from me on female bodyguards and their physiques from me otherwise I will suffer from adminullah hellfire concussion!

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 20 Apr 2009 15:08

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 20 Apr 2009 18:49

In the west COIN troops in the middle of an Insurgency or in open battle...

RK without exaggeration, Indian COIN personnel can forget much more about COIN strat+tactics in an afternoon and go about their work with customary efficiency, than every thing current Western COIN groups can learn for now and a few years more. Starting from around the '50s, Indian COIN have fought a greater variety of insurgents/terrorists at sustained low intensity in every terrain imaginable and a half in political situations of every kind than any fauj in the world. It's another matter why India has still has to fight COIN after so many years. But that is an issue of grand strategy and politics and not COIN theory. I will ignore your comments on the NSG/Marcos Mumbai Op and that remark about why 60 hours. I have refuted every such remark earlier on this thread and related ones a few months back. For all we know the ITBP guy holding his rifle like bajrang bali is just back from the Valley or Ladakh and may well have a thing or two to teach the 9 out of 10 forces of the rest of the world who are no doubt great gunsmiths and marksmen. Unless we have actual personal testimony from experienced people of both sides with v. well experimented procedure, my word is as good as yours. The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not evidence.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 Apr 2009 23:33

Thanks kaangeya - you said it. History Channel's Dogfights says "Erich Hartmann does not exist". They must be right

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 20 Apr 2009 23:59

RK without exaggeration, Indian COIN personnel can forget much more about COIN strat+tactics in an afternoon and go about their work with customary efficiency, than every thing current Western COIN groups can learn for now and a few years more. Starting from around the '50s, Indian COIN have fought a greater variety of insurgents/terrorists at sustained low intensity in every terrain imaginable and a half in political situations of every kind than any fauj in the world. It's another matter why India has still has to fight COIN after so many years. But that is an issue of grand strategy and politics and not COIN theory. I will ignore your comments on the NSG/Marcos Mumbai Op and that remark about why 60 hours. I have refuted every such remark earlier on this thread and related ones a few months back. For all we know the ITBP guy holding his rifle like bajrang bali is just back from the Valley or Ladakh and may well have a thing or two to teach the 9 out of 10 forces of the rest of the world who are no doubt great gunsmiths and marksmen. Unless we have actual personal testimony from experienced people of both sides with v. well experimented procedure, my word is as good as yours. The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not evidence.

I agree with your post. (please try re-reading mine).. However assuming that because the Indian Army has being doing something for 60 years and has mastered it is a fallacy of argument. Suggesting they could do it better however is not a crime.

About the Mumbai Attack. I have spoken to some ex NSG soldiers about it. Without going into specifics all was not well with the NSG. Lets leave it at that. They did a commendable job no doubt. But given their mandate they should have done better. Asking that of them (Here i mean specifically the upper echelons in planning and execution including political boses) is not too much to ask. I do not wish the continue the Mumbai Attack conversations any further. I have asked my questions to people whose judgements i trust and i ahve gotten my replies and have satisfied. There is a whole lot of shakedown happening with the NSG currently. GSG-9 did not extend an arm to help NSG informally pretty much asked them to do a joint eval. If the rumours i have heard are correct so was the FBI.

Also do keep in mind that Tactics+Equipment+leadership(Political+Military) all go hand in hand in Combat. You cannot exclude any one of those variables otherwise the system doesnt work. The System as awhole HAS to be improved. When i say NSG i just dont mean the operators i mean the whole 9 yards.

So the NSG will evolve. But should we only improve when pushed to a wall or should we make it a continous process?

And yes ANY Indian soldier can teach 9/10 armies a thing or two. BUT my point is that we COULD learn a thing or two from those very same 9/10 Armies. THAT WAS MY WHOLE POINT. The Idea to continiously questiona and evolve. That is all.

We could learn a thing or two from how the brits fought the IRA (they had some of the best Terror Intel people in the world) We could also learn a thing or two from the Columbians who have been fighting the FARC for decades. Again some of the best equiped and trained jungle fighters of the world. And the Rest can learn High Altitude Combat from us both conventional and COIN because nobody does it better than us.

I dont know which ITBP guy you are talking about. I was simply talking about Pictures i have seen generally for the last decade or so.

Lastly. This is a pointless conversation that started with the holding position of a weapon. as you said your word as good as mine.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 Apr 2009 00:15

^^ I know that the Mumbai Operation has been discussed to death here, but I cannot help being interested. What according to these ex-NSG soldiers, did NSG do wrong? I do not mean as to what was wrong at political level. What was wrong at NSG level? Most of the criticisms that I have heard till now have been pretty pointless, so it will be interesting to read the views of ex-NSG men. Could you please post in SF thread?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 21 Apr 2009 01:32

according to these ex-NSG soldiers, did NSG do wrong? I do not mean as to what was wrong at political level. What was wrong at NSG level?

Actually its hard to remove the political level from the NSG. It is what makes the mandate Effective. The NSG is a system. The NSG soldier peformed above par compared with their limited resources and situational awarness. Also its not a question what what was wrong its more of a question of what could have been done better.

Having read MP's blog that boseji was talking about the sentiments of those whom i spoke to was similar. Simply put NOT ENOUGH DELEGATION OF RESPONSIBILTY to unit leaders. There was not enough out of the box thinking. In the past the NSG used to role simulate really impossible HRT senarios and get their officers to come up with workable plans in double quick time as a training excersise.

Another critque was way to much interaction and leway was given to media. They Supect that it was a Govt instruction (both Center and Mah) NSG should not have been dictated too. Once they have been activated they alone should have gotten last say on ALL matters.

Local support (Cops/etc) could have been better. They even had to drive from the Airport to the Sites. No Helos. No plans in place to to actually get the ball rolling. NSG was fighting an uphill battle even before leaving delhi.

SRG's job is holding the perimeter and collecting intelligence. Which they did/could not do. The reason for this was lack of proper equipment. Directional Microphones , small camera's,etc. The NSG had simply no idea what was inside the hotel or whateven the hotel looked like from the Inside. Hotel staff had to guide them. Thus they lost the ability of suprise and take the upper hand inside. The battles inside were dictated by the Terrorist and not the NSG. Why couldnt the BMC provide the NSG with the Taj blueprints. Why werethey not asked for? Further more the NSG database is supposed to include the blueprints of Known sensitive installations.

Infact the simple act of using Hotel staff was probably the most harmful thing for the NSG. Hotel staff was limited This forced the NSG teams to only move in from select locations. The Taj is a BIG hotel with multi areas of entry but going in blind they were not able to use all of them. Helo Support was non existant. NSG teams could have landed on the roof and tried to come down (which they did eventually but lack of logistics took time). this also limited their speed. But

Also taj being a heritage building the NSG was also told to be careful. Dont know how much this hurt their movements. (this above told to me by a reporter..so with a pinch of salt)

There was a statement in the MPs blog about the fact that the NSG took too much time because they started clearing operations while hunting for the terrorist instead of trying to conner them. This allowed terrorist freedom of movement. while the exact same line was not told to me the rough sentiment of the time taken was and hinted at the Mah govts need to save face (wrt to more dead). Actually most of the hostages who died were already dead in the first few hours. The rest of the civilians were locked in there rooms (on their own). Do keep in mind that these guys have not seen the AAR but only have heard what the grapevine suggested.

Secondly Comms were BAD. Nsg teams at times lost track of each other and almost fired on each other (Taj). Night fighting capability was existant but the NVGs didnt help. due to many fires and grenades , they had to fight without them. No fault of the nsg on this one. However it slowed them down considerably. An option is using monoculars attached to helmets where one eye is exposed to natural light. They dont have the equipment or training for that yet

Also Ballistic Shields could have saved NSG troopers while going down long Hallways with no cover.

obviously the biggest critique (as in with the kandahar episode) was the time to get the team to bombay however i heard alot of praise for MARCOS. They did well even with HRT not as a primary expertise.

I heard critique on inappropriate firing at the Jewish Center from the building across. ALOT OF AMMO WAS WASTED. But then again these gents admitted that they did not know the actual sit on the ground they did lay that disclaimer on me. However the amount of ammo used made them cringe.

In 2003-2004 i had the priviledge of visiting the NSG raising day press exhibition. the NSG put on a nice show for the politicans and press. An old gent (IPS) remarked to my friend (a reporter) that the NSG used to sweat alot more in the past. An Average shooter (SAG) fired as much as 300+ rounds a week when not on rotation. They were constantly training. They dont do as much anymore.

The NSG didnt perform badly however they Could have done better. Mainly do to better training , Equipment , Logistics and most importantly better CO-OPERATION with other governmental agencies. In such a senario all Agencies , BMC , Fire department , Army , Marcos , Police , Ambulances , etc should have come UNDER Nsg command. Such did not happen.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 21 Apr 2009 02:21

^^^ rkhanna, lets move this discussion to SF thread before adminullahs do a swat on us

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 21 Apr 2009 02:43

RK IBTL,

To give you an idea how "tajurba'd" some of our SF/SPG/COIN men, and women

- hat-tip to Buddhadeb-da's personal security detail

- in the Army there are times when the infantry types - for whom the junior leaders' commando course is compulsory - are so busy that they don't get to attend it well into their 3rd and even 5th year of service, after having done their share of COIN, despite which they would tell you that the course is a boat load of pain and torture.

Rajput · Post by **Rajput** » 21 Apr 2009 12:29

rkhanna wrote:I once had a discussion with an ex Indian Army Officer about OPs in Kashmir. In the west COIN troops in the middle of an Insurgency or in open battle will never wear their ranks on their BDUs and will never salute their officers in public (Incase somebody is watching. they know who the important people are) there is no such concept in India. Little things like this can make a difference.
. . . .
But then i am just nitpiking here.

In the Vietnam war, the Vietcong snipers were known for hiding in the tall (coconut?) tree and picking off officers if they could identify them. But then, saluting and insignia isn't the only way to identify them. Dress up a bunch of army men in civvies and you'll be able to spot the officers from the jawans just by the interaction. Just because an officer isn't wearing a uniform or an isignia doesn't change his behavior.

But coming to your point: please keep in mind that the Indian Army is a professional army, and has seen more COIN ops and wars than most of the armies of the world, especially those in the west. Indian officers have special cloth insignia that they wear during operations. And we do what works for us; we don't need any lessons from weekend warriors whose idea of combat is Halo 3.

And the "not saluting" thing? Happened with LTTE snipers in Lanka. It's just common sense.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Apr 2009 18:05

rkhanna, Raja Bose et al., I think it is time we revert to the thread topic.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 21 Apr 2009 18:40

Indrajit · Post by **Indrajit** » 22 Apr 2009 13:19

INSAS LMG is getting popular amongst the forces it seems.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Apr 2009 02:30

Pakistani militant, Moinullah Shah speaks before media persons at
Army base camp in Srinagar on Saturday. Daily Excelsior/Amin War

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 26 Apr 2009 04:12

Gerard wrote:Pakistani militant, Moinullah Shah speaks before media persons at Army base camp in Srinagar on Saturday. Daily Excelsior/Amin War

I think that's a risky strategy to put a terrorist with a mike in front of the press.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 26 Apr 2009 04:27

No one puts a headstrong captured terrorist in front of the media. Only the pliant ones.
Most of the captured terrorists - see Ajaml Kasab turn into lambs once reality dawns when they're captured. They are greatful to be alive and have finally seen through the fact that they were used by their terror handlers.
Good psyops. Now this needs to be broadcast over DD Kashir into POK.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Apr 2009 04:52

A Pakistani militant arrested by Army today said there is no need of Jihad in Kashmir as contrary to what he has been told in Pakistan, Kashmiris are not facing any oppression.

"I was told by Kashmiris who come there (Pakistan) that they are being tortured by the Indian Army. Their houses have also been taken away besides not being allowed to do the namaaz. They also said their women were being raped," Shah who was presented before the media said.

Shah who underwent an intensive training in Pak-occupied Kashmir, said,"When I came here, I did not see any kind of torture. Everybody was busy doing their own work. I felt their was no need of jihad in Kashmir and hence wanted to go back."

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 26 Apr 2009 04:55

He will be giving more important transmissions over the Pakjab terrorists wireless frequencies, urging his colleagues to give themselves up and to return back and not fight a futile war.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 26 Apr 2009 07:11

An Indian Army soldier displays a selection of seized weapons and ammunition during a press conference at Army headquarters in Srinagar on April 25, 2009. Indian army arrested Sakib Moinullah Shah a suspected Pakistani rebel in Indian-controlled Kashmir and revovered large arms and ammunition from him, a top army officer said. Some 31 Islamic militants infiltrated into Indian Kashmir from the Pakistani zone of the disputed region over the past few weeks, a captured Islamic militant said. The revelations came as Indian Kashmir is preparing for the next round of general elections. Voting in Kashmir has been split into five stages for security reasons. The first two rounds passed off peacefully but next week polling moves to the region's more sensitive Muslim-majority areas. AFP PHOTO/Rouf BHAT (Photo credit should read ROUF BHAT/AFP/Getty Images)

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 26 Apr 2009 07:21

I think that's a risky strategy to put a terrorist with a mike in front of the press.

The IA currently has the most battle ready senior officers anywhere in the world. The Brigadier sitting next to the reformed terrorist looks very mean and business like. Very unlike his TSPA counterpart who is busy running a factory and making bribes on the side. Kasab broke in a few hours just looking at the pictures of his dead comrades, after which he was kept in chaddis, and treated like a baccha. It works very well.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 26 Apr 2009 07:55

Any videos of Paki terrroist speaking infront of media?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Apr 2009 08:34

anupmisra wrote:
Gerard wrote:Pakistani militant, Moinullah Shah speaks before media persons at Army base camp in Srinagar on Saturday. Daily Excelsior/Amin War
I think that's a risky strategy to put a terrorist with a mike in front of the press.

why do you say that?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 26 Apr 2009 09:35

shiv wrote:
anupmisra wrote:I think that's a risky strategy to put a terrorist with a mike in front of the press.
why do you say that?

The risk is that pig may use that moment as a platform to say the exact opposite of what the army expects him to say or what he had told the army that he would say.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 26 Apr 2009 11:25

gauravsurati. Video->No need for jihad in Kashmir

Courtesy Times Now

Ankit

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Apr 2009 13:36

kaangeya wrote:
I think that's a risky strategy to put a terrorist with a mike in front of the press.
The IA currently has the most battle ready senior officers anywhere in the world. The Brigadier sitting next to the reformed terrorist looks very mean and business like. Very unlike his TSPA counterpart who is busy running a factory and making bribes on the side. Kasab broke in a few hours just looking at the pictures of his dead comrades, after which he was kept in chaddis, and treated like a baccha. It works very well.

Absolutely, the SDRE sardar Brig(and the "short" Naga standing behind him with a AK) sitting next to the TFTA NWFP pig certainly didn't look like cowering in his fatigues.

The very sight of 3-4 such SDREs when in custody must have broken the poor pig and he became ready to even lick boots if need be to avoid the Indian danda...

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 26 Apr 2009 13:57

Ankit Desai wrote:gauravsurati. Video->No need for jihad in Kashmir

Courtesy Times Now

Ankit

Manshera looks hardly far then 300K from J&K. Surely under BrahMos scanner.

Gaurav_S · Post by **Gaurav_S** » 26 Apr 2009 14:02

anupmisra wrote:
shiv wrote: quote="anupmisra"I think that's a risky strategy to put a terrorist with a mike in front of the press./quote
why do you say that?
The risk is that pig may use that moment as a platform to say the exact opposite of what the army expects him to say or what he had told the army that he would say.

Cant understand why media have to broadcast this live? Cant IA ask media beforehand not to broadcast such things live. It would safeguard against any wrong doings by him.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 26 Apr 2009 15:18

PR Ops like these are very very well managed affairs.
The subject goes through many hours and days of gruelling affair. They are usually begging for mercy and the PR Ops are done given as trade in for few less years in some jail or maybe their family being looked after (if they are locals).

Last not least ... what makes us so sure that it was live... maybe it was delayed by 5 just five minutes but LIVE label kept on...

The media being patriotic enough and maintain an edge over the enemy often agree not to broadcast in case the affair turns sour.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 26 Apr 2009 17:02

Khalsa wrote:PR Ops like these are very very well managed affairs.
The subject goes through many hours and days of gruelling affair. They are usually begging for mercy

In that case, the terrorist was coerced into saying whatever he said?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 26 Apr 2009 18:42

It is no different to any other criminal making a deal and a statement in court.
Cooperation in return for clemency is quite above the board and done throughout the world.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Apr 2009 20:33

anupmisra wrote:
Khalsa wrote:PR Ops like these are very very well managed affairs.
The subject goes through many hours and days of gruelling affair. They are usually begging for mercy
In that case, the terrorist was coerced into saying whatever he said?

A fundamental rule in psy ops is not to say things that the enemy will like to hear. The terrorist is not doing that why are you doing that?

Are you feeling an intense need to do a self examination of Indian motives and be totally "dharmic"?

I cannot argue against your admittedly noble and high thoughts - but they remain a self goal.

And there remains a 50% probability that the terrorist is doing it voluntarily - but the self goal remains 100%. negative.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 26 Apr 2009 20:51

shiv wrote:A fundamental rule in psy ops is not to say things that the enemy will like to hear. Are you feeling an intense need to do a self examination of Indian motives and be totally "dharmic"? I cannot argue against your admittedly noble and high thoughts - but they remain a self goal. And there remains a 50% probability that the terrorist is doing it voluntarily - but the self goal remains 100%. negative.

I realize this is out of topic but my thoughts on this action by IA are: why needlessly create an opportunity for the enemy to go to town and critique this one "sincere" action as a coerced one. It would be so easy for them. Kasab recanted everything he admitted when given a chance in public court. This happens all the time in Indian criminal justice system.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 26 Apr 2009 20:52

Gerard wrote:It is no different to any other criminal making a deal and a statement in court. Cooperation in return for clemency is quite above the board and done throughout the world.

Except in the Indian judicial system where a confession to the police can be recanted later in the court. This was a press meeting.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 27 Apr 2009 06:39

Seized Chinese grenades are displayed by the Indian army during a news conference inside a military garrison in Srinagar April 25, 2009. India army's Brigadier General Staff, Gurmit Singh, told a news conference that a huge consignment of arms and ammunitions was recovered and one Pakistani militant was arrested after a gun battle with separatist militants who sneaked into Indian Kashmir from Pakistan Kashmir earlier this month.