Strategic leadership for the future of India

Locked
Keshav
BRFite
Posts: 633
Joined: 20 Sep 2007 08:53
Location: USA

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Keshav »

Arjun wrote:I would be uncomfortable with the notion that combining religion with even desired activities such as healthcare and education as a package deal somehow makes it acceptable. But lets leave that aside for the moment and assume that is OK.
You might be uncomfortable with it, but it happens nonetheless. You being uncomfortable is your Hindu mind speaking which believes that social work should be done without looking towards the fruit of the work. Christianity and Islam are not so high minded, unfortunately.

It is acceptable by law. Creating a law which states that it should not happen would be a travesty to those poor whose only means of education and healthcare are through Church or Islamic organizations. The only reasons Hindus complain is because they don't do it and when they do - RSS, VHP - its never that good.
What you claim is not feasible - there are ways to address it. In fact I recollect Brihaspati spelling out the details of how this could be implemented on one of his posts which I can try digging out. Please look at examples in other more earthly 'industries' where the problem has been equally complex and how regulations have had tremendous success (eg mutual fund sales and marketing).
Where could I find this post. I can't respond to your point without what he said.
You have not been able to contest any of my points logically - but this really takes the cake. What I am suggesting as promotion of non-exclusivism is the antidote for extremism - and yet you persist in seeing 'extremist' shadows in the very country that can provide the solution.
The point I made about extremism was an aside. I specifically talked about the efficiency and morality of stopping conversion efforts and what not, but I didn't really understand the point you made.

The question again, just for clarification is: how do you remove the exclusivism of a faith from each individual conversion? You are never going to remove exclusivism from an Abrahamic faith - all of them are based on division!

You cannot delineate between those conversions that are attached to humanitarian causes and those that are done on threat of Hell. It is there choice, ultimately.

The only way to counter it is to change Hinduism and then sell that to the masses.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Keshavji,
probably he means my post dated 16th April on the "Demise of Pakistan" thread.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

"Hindusim" is a result of "changes". Which is also natural, since the "Hindu-ism" aspect stressed out more in reaction to the "alien" than any internal dynamic. The task is to realize that the "dress" is not equivalent to the "body" which is covered by that dress. "Hinduism" is that dress, "Hindu" is the body. Dresses need to be changed when they get old and no longer serve the original purpose or are appropriate for the current weather. That should not cross over into changing the body itself, amuptating its parts and try to fit in artificial limbs. And dresses should be appropriate for the weather the body is most likely to face, and not chosen simply because it looks good or have been shouted about by a group which swears by it.
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Arjun »

Keshav,

For your reference: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 59#p653959

Includes Brihaspati's and my thoughts.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

Folks please read this if you can...
X-posted...
http://www.newstatesman.com/asia/2009/0 ... j-pakistan


Legacy of the Raj

Mihir Bose

Published 23 April 2009

Born in Mumbai, Mihir Bose has won numerous awards for his wide-ranging journalism over four decades. Now the BBC’s sports editor, he reflects here on democracy in India – and asks if the British really wanted their former colony to survive

As last viceroy, Lord Mountbatten (in white dress uniform, centre right) handed over to Jawaharlal Nehru (far right). It was Nehru’s work that made secular democracy thrive in India

At one point during the recent general election campaign in India, the leader of the BJP opposition, L K Advani, accused the prime minister, Manmohan Singh, of being “weak”. Singh and his colleagues reacted with fury. This was an abusive term, they said, that insulted both the office of the prime minister and the country itself. Not to be outdone, Advani reacted by claiming he was “hurt” by the attacks on his record, and for good measure then failed to attend an all-party dinner in honour of the departing speaker of the Indian parliament.

Such exchanges suggest that levels of debate in the Indian political class are not particularly elevated. But to be fair to the participants, they have not been helped by the historical inheritance the new state received at its birth. It may be hard to credit now, as 700 million voters go to the polls in the world’s biggest elections, but back in the 1940s the wise men of the British Raj predicted that while Pakistan would prosper, India would soon be Balkanised. Pakistan, it was thought, would become a vibrant Muslim state, a bulwark against Soviet communism. India’s predominantly Hindu population, however, was presumed to be a source of weakness and instability.

Nobody expressed this view more forcefully than Lieutenant-General Sir Francis Tucker who, as General Officer Commanding of the British Indian Eastern Command, had been in charge of large parts of the country. His memoirs, While Memory Serves, published in 1950, the year India became a republic, reflected the view of many of the departing British.

Hindu India was entering its most difficult phase of its whole existence. Its religion, which is to a great extent superstition and formalism, is breaking down. If the precedents of history mean anything . . . then we may well expect, in the material world of today, that a material philosophy such as Communism will fill the void left by the Hindu religion.

Tucker was hardly alone among Raj officials. By then, it was almost an orthodoxy to believe that Hinduism was, if not an evil force, at least spent and worthless. Islam, on the other hand, was a religion the West could understand and with whose political leaders it could do business.

Rudyard Kipling, the great chronicler of the Raj, had long made clear his fondness for Muslims and his distrust of Hindus. He was appalled by the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, the two great Hindu classics, and repulsed by the jumble of the faith’s beliefs. In contrast, Kipling claimed that he had never met an Englishman who hated Islam and its people, for “where there are Muslims there is a comprehensive civilisation”.

The British had seized power in the subcontinent mainly from Muslim rulers, and the crushing of the 1857 revolt, after which the last Mughal emperor was removed, put paid to any chance of Muslim revival. By the beginning of the 20th century, however, the Muslims had become the allies of the Raj as it struggled to quell the agitation for freedom led by the Indian National Congress. [b]The Raj encouraged the formation of the Muslim League and determinedly portrayed the INC as a Hindu party, despite its constant promotion of its secular credentials and advertisement of its Muslim leaders. (True, the party was mostly made up of Hindus; but as India was overwhelmingly Hindu, this was hardly surprising. The Raj just could not believe that a party made up largely of Hindus could be truly secular.)[/b]

Such was the hatred for the Hindus, particularly Brahmins, that the Raj could not be shaken from this fixation – even when the Congress Party had political victories in diehard Muslim provinces, the most remarkable of which was in the North-West Frontier Province. Today, parts of the province (which voted to join Pakistan in 1947) are adopting sharia law, but in the 1930s a secular Muslim movement had grown up there, led by Ghaffar Khan and his brother Khan Sahib. They joined the Congress Party and won successive election victories from 1937 onwards, defeating established Muslim parties.

But the Raj pictured these secular Muslims as dupes of the wily Hindus. The only consolation for Sir Olaf Caroe, considered to be the supreme Raj expert on the local Pashtuns, was that they would soon come to their senses, “It is hard to see how the Pathan [Pashtun] tradition could reconcile itself for long to Hindu leadership, by so many regarded as smooth-faced, pharisaical and double-dealing . . . How then could he [the Pathan] have associated himself with a party under Indian, even Brahmin, inspiration . . .”

What would the West not give now for such secular Muslims to return to power in this playground of the Taliban and al-Qaeda – even if under the spell of “pharisaical Brahmins”?

Such caricatures of Hindus were not uncommon (featuring, for instance, in Evelyn Waugh’s Scoop), but it was when this view was espoused by major politicians such as Winston Churchill that it became truly dangerous. When Churchill argued vehemently against Indian independence in the 1930s, his fire was directed mainly at the Hindus (in contrast, he praised Muslims, whose valour and virility he admired). As the Second World War neared its close, the British prime minister was so consumed by hatred of the Hindus that he told his private secretary John Colville that he wanted extraordinary destruction visited upon them. Colville’s The Fringes of Power records the extreme nature of his master’s feelings in February 1945, just ­after his return from Yalta:

"The PM said the Hindus were a foul race “protected by their mere pullulation from the doom that is due” and he wished Bert [Bomber] Harris could send some of his surplus bombers to destroy them." :x

Clement Attlee, who came to power within months, did not share Churchill’s Hindu-phobia. There were also historic ties between Labour and Congress. Yet his government nevertheless agreed that a separate Pakistan was vital to Britain’s global interests. By early 1947, British policymakers realised they had to withdraw from the subcontinent, but still wanted a military presence there: to protect Britain’s position in the century-long Great Game with Russia, and to protect the sea routes to Arabian oil wells. Partition, the foreign secretary Ernest Bevin told the Labour party conference that year, “would help to consolidate Britain in the Middle East”.

British strategy was also shaped by Pakistan’s wish to remain in the Commonwealth, while India wanted out. By the end of the war, what little love there had been between the Raj and Congress had long evaporated, as most of the party’s leaders spent much of the war inside British jails. They had refused to co-operate with the war effort unless their masters promised freedom when peace came. Regarding this as blackmail during the empire’s “darkest hour”, the British made mass arrests and banned the party. In such circumstances, it was understandable that the pleas of both Churchill and Attlee that the king-emperor should remain as head of state were ignored.

British hopes for the country that emerged were not high. Just before he left India in 1943, the Viceroy of India, Lord Linlithgow, forecast that it would take Indians at least 50 years to learn how to practise parliamentary democracy. Even then, he felt it would require much tutoring from the British and other Europeans, whom he thought could be tempted to the subcontinent by the arrival of air-conditioning. (Once they didn’t have to worry about the heat, he reasoned, some six million Britons could be persuaded to settle in India to take on the task.)

That democracy took root so quickly and successfully owes much to Jawaharlal Nehru, the first and longest-serving prime minister of India, who was in office from 1947-64. So well did the system embed itself that when his daughter Indira imposed emergency rule in the 1970s – the closest India has come to a dictatorship – it was ended not by tanks rolling down the streets of Delhi, but through the ballot box. That election showed, as have many since then, that ordinary Indians, many of them poor and illiterate, value their vote (perhaps even more than the rich, who feel money can buy them influence). They queue for hours in the baking heat to cast their ballots.

Before the Second World War, the Raj’s relationship with India was like a father promising to allow his stepson to come into his inheritance at some unspecified date in the distant future. It never quite believed that there could ever be a time that this brown person would be capable of managing the estate.

This general election campaign may have exposed just how fractured the political classes are today, with numerous caste, religious and communal groups competing and doing deals with each other. The Congress-led United Progressive Alliance may have completed its five-year term of office, but many of its allies, including cabinet ministers, are opposing Congress at local level. Some of them make no secret that they aspire to the prime ministership, and all of them are aware that, as the Times of India put it: “Opportunistic post-poll equations will be more important than the pre-poll pitch of the parties.”

Yet the patchwork quilt that is made up of British India and the hundreds of princely states united and survived, and still manages to do so despite all the challenges that could have led to that Balkanisation predicted by old Raj hands. The likes of Tucker, Churchill and Kipling were proved wrong: constructing the new nation of India was not, after all, beyond the Indians.

Mihir Bose will be reporting on India for “Newsnight” on 23 April (BBC2) and for BBC World and BBC News in early May
Tucker and Caroe were part of the Viceroy Study Group (VSG) and were the mentors of the new Great Game.

Looks like in one article validated many of BRF's thoughts in print. And folks were saying all this was conspiracy theory!
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

Looks liek this post is relevant to this thread and the one on Future scenarios thread.
Sanjay M wrote:The Revenge of Geography, by Robert Kaplan

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms. ... 62&print=1
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by svinayak »

ramana wrote:Looks liek this post is relevant to this thread and the one on Future scenarios thread.
Sanjay M wrote:The Revenge of Geography, by Robert Kaplan

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms. ... 62&print=1

Few areas
The Indian subcontinent is one such shatter zone. It is defined on its landward sides by the hard geographic borders of the Himalayas to the north, the Burmese jungle to the east, and the somewhat softer border of the Indus River to the west. Indeed, the border going westward comes in three stages: the Indus; the unruly crags and canyons that push upward to the shaved wastes of Central Asia, home to the Pashtun tribes; and, finally, the granite, snow-mantled massifs of the Hindu Kush, transecting Afghanistan itself. Because these geographic impediments are not contiguous with legal borders, and because barely any of India’s neighbors are functional states, the current political organization of the subcontinent should not be taken for granted. You see this acutely as you walk up to and around any of these land borders, the weakest of which, in my experience, are the official ones—a mere collection of tables where cranky bureaucrats inspect your luggage. Especially in the west, the only border that lives up to the name is the Hindu Kush, making me think that in our own lifetimes the whole semblance of order in Pakistan and southeastern Afghanistan could unravel, and return, in effect, to vague elements of greater India.

In Nepal, the government barely controls the countryside where 85 percent of its people live. Despite the aura bequeathed by the Himalayas, nearly half of Nepal’s population lives in the dank and humid lowlands along the barely policed border with India. Driving throughout this region, it appears in many ways indistinguishable from the Ganges plain. If the Maoists now ruling Nepal cannot increase state capacity, the state itself could dissolve.

The same holds true for Bangladesh. Even more so than Nepal, it has no geographic defense to marshal as a state. The view from my window during a recent bus journey was of the same ruler-flat, aquatic landscape of paddy fields and scrub on both sides of the line with India. The border posts are disorganized, ramshackle affairs. This artificial blotch of territory on the Indian subcontinent could metamorphose yet again, amid the gale forces of regional politics, Muslim extremism, and nature itself.

Like Pakistan, no Bangladeshi government, military or civilian, has ever functioned even remotely well. Millions of Bangladeshi refugees have already crossed the border into India illegally. With 150 million people—a population larger than Russia—crammed together at sea level, Bangladesh is vulnerable to the slightest climatic variation, never mind the changes caused by global warming. Simply because of its geography, tens of millions of people in Bangladesh could be inundated with salt water, necessitating the mother of all humanitarian relief efforts. In the process, the state itself could collapse.

Of course, the worst nightmare on the subcontinent is Pakistan, whose dysfunction is directly the result of its utter lack of geographic logic. The Indus should be a border of sorts, but Pakistan sits astride both its banks, just as the fertile and teeming Punjab plain is bisected by the India-Pakistan border. Only the Thar Desert and the swamps to its south act as natural frontiers between Pakistan and India. And though these are formidable barriers, they are insufficient to frame a state composed of disparate, geographically based, ethnic groups—Punjabis, Sindhis, Baluchis, and Pashtuns—for whom Islam has provided insufficient glue to hold them together. All the other groups in Pakistan hate the Punjabis and the army they control, just as the groups in the former Yugoslavia hated the Serbs and the army they controlled. Pakistan’s raison d’être is that it supposedly provides a homeland for subcontinental Muslims, but 154 million of them, almost the same number as the entire population of Pakistan, live over the border in India.

To the west, the crags and canyons of Pakistan’s North-West Frontier Province, bordering Afghanistan, are utterly porous. Of all the times I crossed the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, I never did so legally. In reality, the two countries are inseparable. On both sides live the Pashtuns. The wide belt of territory between the Hindu Kush mountains and the Indus River is really Pashtunistan, an entity that threatens to emerge were Pakistan to fall apart. That would, in turn, lead to the dissolution of Afghanistan.

The Taliban constitute merely the latest incarnation of Pashtun nationalism. Indeed, much of the fighting in Afghanistan today occurs in Pashtunistan: southern and eastern Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan. The north of Afghanistan, beyond the Hindu Kush, has seen less fighting and is in the midst of reconstruction and the forging of closer links to the former Soviet republics in Central Asia, inhabited by the same ethnic groups that populate northern Afghanistan. Here is the ultimate world of Mackinder, of mountains and men, where the facts of geography are asserted daily, to the chagrin of U.S.-led forces—and of India, whose own destiny and borders are hostage to what plays out in the vicinity of the 20,000-foot wall of the Hindu Kush.
Also check the document and see how Kaplan and this document match
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4812906/India-and-Geopolitics
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

Wow. Who wrote that scribd document? If you happen to know please convey our good wishes.
yogi
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 94
Joined: 18 Jun 2008 02:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by yogi »

Ramana,

You may have seen this thesis before. But if not, then you will love it:

Unification of South Asia: Master's Thesis by Hardev Singh
The thesis proposes unification of South Asia, comprising India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bhutan, and Maldives into a single democratic federal structure, like the U.S. with certain amount of autonomy to the states/provinces. The study first establishes the major instability problems in the region and then analyzes the feasibility and suitability of South Asia's unification into a single nation.

A detailed examination of the Kashmir problem concludes that India and Pakistan are unlikely to find a solution to this highly emotional issue which has its roots linked to the illogical partition of the British India in 1947. The conclusion highlights as to why the decision to divide British India was incorrect and how this partition has aggravated the religious division between the Hindus and Muslims instead of resolving the same.

The detailed analysis of Hinduism and Islam in South Asia establishes that religious division in South Asia would be reduced by unification. The study concludes that the unification, besides bringing stability to the region, would bring other major benefits including cutting down the defense budget of South Asia by two-third and a reduction of armed forces by 48 Infantry/Armed/Mountain Divisions. Unification of South Asia, Stability to the Region.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote: http://www.newstatesman.com/asia/2009/0 ... j-pakistan
. And folks were saying all this was conspiracy theory!

Ramana - great article, thanks.

You have asked a rhetorical question and so let me use this opportunity to add a corollary to what the article suggests. No. There is no conspiracy theory, but...

If one accepts that that there is no conspiracy theory in Britain's vicious opposition to India, one must also accept the other side (as stated by Sarila and on here) - that the US inherited Britain's global role.

If we can accept that the US inherited and carried forward Britain's role, is it so difficult to believe that Pakistan will go down only when the US goes down?
samuel
BRFite
Posts: 818
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 08:52

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by samuel »

That depends on who takes the baton from the US, doesn't it?
S
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

There is a diff in US and GB outlook. GB was imperial while US is mercantilist. The trick is to make them understand why TSP de-Partition is in their interest.
Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Pulikeshi »

What is India? Has India decided de-Partition is in her interest?
Would such a conclusion not be a precursor to convincing someone else of this goal?
pgbhat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4172
Joined: 16 Dec 2008 21:47
Location: Hayden's Ferry

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by pgbhat »

What would an Indian strike achieve? by George Friedman
Interesting reading.... some excerpts ....
The argument against attacking Pakistan therefore rests on a very thin layer of analysis. It requires the belief that Pakistan is not responsible for the attacks, that it is nonetheless restraining radical Islamists to some degree, and that an Indian attack would cause even these modest restraints to disappear. Further, it assumes that these restraints, while modest, are substantial enough to make a difference.
From the Pakistani point of view, the only potential military action India could take that would not meet U.S. opposition would be airstrikes. There has been talk that the Indians might launch airstrikes against Islamist training camps and bases in Pakistani-administered Kashmir. In Pakistan's view, this is not a serious problem. Mounting airstrikes against training camps is harder than it might seem. The only way to achieve anything in such a facility is with area destruction weapons -- for instance, using B-52s to drop ordnance over very large areas. The targets are not amenable to strike aircraft, because the payload of such aircraft is too small. It would be tough for the Indians, who don't have strategic bombers, to hit very much. Numerous camps exist, and the Islamists can afford to lose some. As an attack, it would be more symbolic than effective.

Moreover, if the Indians did kill large numbers of radical Islamists, this would hardly pose a problem to the Pakistani government. It might even solve some of Islamabad's problems, depending on which analysis you accept. Airstrikes would generate massive support among Pakistanis for their government so long as Islamabad remained defiant of India. Pakistan thus might even welcome Indian airstrikes against Islamist training camps.
Pakistan's strongest card with the United States is the threat to block the port of Karachi. But here, too, there is a counter to Pakistan: If Pakistan closes Karachi to American shipping, either the Indian or American navy also could close it to Pakistani shipping. Karachi is Pakistan's main export facility, and Pakistan is heavily dependent on it. If Karachi were blocked, particularly while Pakistan is undergoing a massive financial crisis, Pakistan would face disaster. Karachi is thus a double-edged sword. As long as Pakistan keeps it open to the Americans, India probably won't block it. But should Pakistan ever close the port in response to U.S. action in the Afghan-Pakistani borderland, then Pakistan should not assume that the port will be available for its own use.
The Indians have made it clear that the ISI is their enemy. The ISI has a building, and buildings can be destroyed, along with files and personnel. Such an aerial attack also would serve to shock the Pakistanis by representing a serious escalation. And Pakistan might find retaliation difficult, given the relative strength of its air force. India has few good choices for retaliation, and while this option is not a likely one, it is undoubtedly one that has to be considered.

It seems to us that India can avoid attacks on Pakistan only if Islamabad makes political concessions that it would find difficult to make. The cost to Pakistan of these concessions might well be greater than the benefit of avoiding conflict with India. All of India's options are either ineffective or dangerous, but inactivity is politically and strategically the least satisfactory route for New Delhi. This circumstance is the most dangerous aspect of the current situation. In our opinion, the relative quiet at present should not be confused with the final outcome, unless Pakistan makes surprising concessions.
btw does any rakshak still under the illusion that indian gobermund will do something??
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Sanku »

pgbhat wrote: btw does any rakshak still under the illusion that indian gobermund will do something??
The Abdullahs are claiming NDA will be a disaster for Kashmir because it would take India to war against the maleecha asuras. Usually these kinds of posturings are based on some real hidden discussion and understanding in the polity.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

The only difference between the NDA and the UPA as regards war on TSP, will be that while NDA may "talk" of war as part of psy-ops, at most it will resort to this if there is severe provocation and more likely to be defensive in essence, but the UPA will "talk" of not going to full-scale war, but "defend" Indian sovereignity if "attacked". Both will avoid taking aggressive action on TSP as afar as possible in reality.

So the Abdullah talk is simply a naked "appeasement" to the separatist/militant section of Kashmir, and possibly a fear that they will lose control over the "Muslim" vote bank in the valley, if they do not play this card.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Convincing the other powers of the necessity of "de-partitioning" will be important only if these other powers are in a position to interfere in favour of TSP. Soon, the course of history and military/political development will take out US and UK out of consideration. Russia will play neutral if it is promised access to the Indian Ocean through the TSP corridor. Only PRC will remain an inveterate opponent. This also needs some time and flanking moves (diplomatic, financial, political and military alliances) to South East Asia and the Pacific, even naval missile coverage of the Chinese coastal cities, to create deterrence. Draw PRC out to its vulnerable south-eastern flank, so that posturing in the North and Tibet will mean splitting up military capabilities on two distant fronts. Encourage a Tibetan armed resistance and support it. This will tie up PRc to a great extent.

India has to take initiative. How long can it wait on other's shoulders and expect that others will do things to her advantage? Don't put all hope on the NDA or the UPA. The future may need much more focused power and mobilization centres, which could form out of the core of NDA and even some segments currently with the UPA. Politics is a strange "barangana", whose fancy as to her "master of the night" changes in subtle apparently inexplicable ways ("nripaniti barangana-sama").
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Sanku »

brihaspati wrote: Both will avoid taking aggressive action on TSP as afar as possible in reality.
I don't know if that will change with prominence of NM in BJP. We may have a situation where BJP leadership plans for a show of strength to back it nationalist credentials. Given that exploding nukes now will only get some pain without having any returns in terms of "new move of a nationalist govt" they have to look for other options.

So even a cynical cold headed approach does indicate to me a possibility of BJP attempting some strong arm action or the other if it gets to power. I am sure Pakis will be happy to oblige them with an excuse. Also if Pakis keep providing GoI a reason to act and a BJP govt does nothing, it will lose its chance to talk about it shortly.

No I do think we will have a confrontation of sorts if NDA makes it power. Last time it was in power, we nearly went to a full scale war, fought one low scale war and were under war clouds for significant amount of time. This time is going to be only worse.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rahul M »

The only reasons Hindus complain is because they don't do it and when they do - RSS, VHP - its never that good.
:rotfl: :rotfl:
and you say this based upon.......... ?
there are many other organisations other than vhp/rss who do a far larger amount of work than missionary organisations(not saying that rss doesn't work) in a much better fashion w/o the pre-condition of conversion. missionary charitable orgs work only in situations where the honchos can be assured a comfortable life-style, in my experience they are conspicuous by absence during times of calamities like flood and earthquake.

some RK missions I know in fact maintain fibre glass boats for incidences of flood.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Second Rahul M's view. I have met Bharat Sevashram Sangha and RKM in my own forays into such situations. I have sepcicifically found EJ's conspicuously absent in severe flood situations, and endemics. I represented "secular" forces, but had no problems in interacting and collaborating with them. In fact "die-hard" "comrades" under my "command" actually got "sick" and "bed-ridden" when they saw what was involved - no such hesitation from the other two orgs. On one occasion I spent most of time working with them, which was cause for lots of grumbling among the "sick" comrades and cause of heartburn back at central - you know, "its not good for public image" if our "post-holders" are seen with "reactionary religious forces". I will always back these groups if it comes to that. Haven't seen EJ's - so no place for them.
Abhi_G
BRFite
Posts: 715
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 21:42

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Abhi_G »

Cross posting for what is worth:

Hindu organizations do these activities but the level of exposure is very less. There are two reasons for such a thing. One there is open media bias (note by media, I mean the city based English/Vernacular media) of not reporting the good work done by Hindu organizations. They may get reported in the very local news papers. Second, to get a level of exposure in the so called *mainstream* media, these organizations have to cough up a huge amount of money. Money may not be a real problem but the bias of the journos is definitely an issue . For example, when there is a flood or cyclone Bharat SevaShram Sangh goes full throttle to save the victims but the indifference of the media on the Ashram's activities leads to a non reporting of their work. The Ramakrishna mission does a whole lot of work in poor areas but their policy is more cautious and for obvious reasons they do not want to bring in the gaze of politicians. Sometime back there was a report of a swami being tortured by local cpm goons in West Bengal under the gaze of the local Govt. Please see the pictures in this link.

http://hindusamhati.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... nk-of.html

Regarding the caste problem, I know of RSS doing good work in promoting priesthood from lower strata of the society. It is good but in what ways would priesthood enable the family of four to earn a decent living in today's world? Secondly, there are powerful politicians like Mulayam Singh or Paswan. Their hold needs to be broken and that has to come from the nationalist forces. The issue is when you have an anti national Govt. at the helm of affairs, the good work done can be easily distorted. The most recent one that we observed was in Orissa.

So the issue is not that there is no effort. There are a huge number of hurdles that Hindu organizations face. But they carry on the good work that is not always reported. Among the numerous examples, I would like to point out this one:

http://www.aimforseva.org/projects/

founded by Swami Dayananda Saraswati (not the Arya Samaj founder).
Abhi_G
BRFite
Posts: 715
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 21:42

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Abhi_G »

Sometime back there was a discussion about the role of the INC in shaping the early part of the politics in India. Among the members who funded the INC was a prominent industrialist. During the years running up to the independence, there was a strong argument as to what the nature of the economy of independent India should be. AFAIK, Bose advocated an industrial policy similar to the Soviet Union. It was normal in those times since the propaganda emanating from the USSR was strong. There was a sharp disagreement between Bose and Patel but I am not sure if it was on the issue of socialism versus capiltalism. Patel gave speeches in Bombay that nationalization of industries would not be done, or at least gave some assurances to the business community.

There is a reason why I am raising this question in this thread. We needed (still need) indigenous business and industries in post 1947 India. Therefore, to allow continuity of established businesses during the British Raj, the INC possibly may have had to make some concessions to avoid an out and out struggle to throw the British out of the Indian soil. Especially when the funding sources were prominent industrialists. To what extent, business interests contributed to the action/inaction of the INC? Will such a situation arise once again in India, when there is a serious crisis in the country and the GOI is not able to take decisions since that may jeopardize interests of some business houses? The question may be too hypothetical but probably requires some look.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

A very important issue. The reason INC could go forward was primarily because it adapted itself to two driving ambitions and interests. The search for restoration of power to "Hindu" elite and middle-sections, the lawyers, barristers, doctors, and middle-level administrators (the top was reserved for "White British") on the one and "native" fledgeling "capitalists" for markets, inputs and growth. Where, the Indian capitalists came into conflict or competition with British business and financial interests, they could be coopted into INC support.

Under the current scenario, "industrialists" would be looking for national support towards "external expansion". Here their interests coincide with ours, and we should be able to align them to the objectives. It is better that the inherent "exploitative" component be not turned inwards, and let loose outwards. Internally we may actually need to put in reforms that could almost appear "leftist" in certain aspects or "rightist" in other aspects. This may not always suit "big capitalist" interests. However we can come to "agreement" that India will do all it can, and it is in national interests that they expand "out" with benefits to the "mother country". This should defuse the worry that you have raised.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

Pulikeshi wrote:What is India? Has India decided de-Partition is in her interest?
Would such a conclusion not be a precursor to convincing someone else of this goal?
I think they have. One thing is there is no chatter about it. Means case closed. Wait for WKK whines soon.

And those are Stratfor's views and not necessarily Indian views on options.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Actually how do we know what "India" thinks? Different subgroups of Indians may think differently. There are two problems here. First the question is not posed properly to all Indians. We do not even ask such sensitive questions as to whether Kashmir's belonging to India (based on cultural claims more than legalese - exactly those cultural claims of unity and indivisibility that become doubtful in the minds of certain elite) is undisputedly agreed to by the majoirty of Indians.

The second problem lies in the selective representation of such questions and their answers in the media, which then interacts and confuses those in the middle or on the opposite side of the spectrum even further.

Once a correct strategy and understanding has been reached, "peer reviewed", and congealed after repeated "dusting" and "picking", it should be adgered to firmly and without hesitation. Conviction generates conviction, and over the long term will solidify into game changing force.
Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Pulikeshi »

Boss,

Not to indulge in intellectual sophistry of what "India" thinks -
my question was simply whether GOI had reached this conclusion on de-partitioning.
I am yet to see any evidence in open-source that can make this claim.

GOI has never articulated a greater vision of a role for India post NAM.
Even that was a defensive sort of vision not an overtly ambitious one.
Indian politics remains at the - roti, kapada, makan aur internet level!
Absorbing "gangrened limbs" of splinter states requires more that what is...

Will be happy to be proved wrong.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

The problem is that GOI may realize the stark reality and necessity, but may be very very scared about taking concrete steps. That is where the political will question comes in. In fact even in an NDA dominate dgivernment there will be lots of hesitation about this even if they would be more eager in general to bring about such steps. But the provocations and crises will intensify only.

So my assessment is that it may not be possible for any future GOI to remain neutral about this. Either lose the North or face continuous debilitating "low-to-medium intensity" bleeding warfare or move in and finish off the problem for ever.
Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Pulikeshi »

GOI has never indicated in its history a desire to expand the territory of India.
If anything, its defensive lax behavior has caused ceding territories to others.
Even in 1971, there was no major effort made to readjust boundaries to India's advantage.

Given this, I dare say there is neither the intent nor the desire to execute on de-partitioning.

Linking the security of the Gangetic plain to that of securing the Indus is a leap of faith in as far as current GOI thinking is concerned.

All current actions of GOI indicates it still wants a well-adjusted Pakistan as a western neighbor and no more.

It may have still not dawned on the babus that the desire to have a well-adjusted Pakistan as a western neighbor is a pipe dream.
Without having TSP's jadi-booti in India's firm hands there can be no peace. :mrgreen:
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5405
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ShauryaT »

Pulikeshi wrote:Boss,

Not to indulge in intellectual sophistry of what "India" thinks -
my question was simply whether GOI had reached this conclusion on de-partitioning.
I am yet to see any evidence in open-source that can make this claim.

GOI has never articulated a greater vision of a role for India post NAM.
Even that was a defensive sort of vision not an overtly ambitious one.
Indian politics remains at the - roti, kapada, makan aur internet level!
Absorbing "gangrened limbs" of splinter states requires more that what is...

Will be happy to be proved wrong.
Pulikeshi: Forget de-partitioning, Actions speak louder than words, capability to act is what matters for intent can change. When we would have built the capabilities to take such an action, we will all know loud and clear, what is the "conclusion" of GoI.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

Well capabilities can outrun political will. In some of the previous wars with TSP, territories were sometimes gained - proving capability, but were promptly surrendered and returned to TSP proving lack of political will or strength to resist foreign arm-twisting.
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5405
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ShauryaT »

brihaspati wrote:Well capabilities can outrun political will. In some of the previous wars with TSP, territories were sometimes gained - proving capability, but were promptly surrendered and returned to TSP proving lack of political will or strength to resist foreign arm-twisting.
Is that the goal, to gain territory, through war, that by itself was never the issue.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

The question was about capabilities to carry out certain actions - which in turn was centred on the question of "de-partitioning". The primary problem with departitioning is indeed dissolving the physical act of partition, which means territorial expansion and absorption. The question of military capability mismatching political will came up because of this conection. Without such military capability, there will be existence of independent "states" that survive on maintaining both the physical as well as ideological "partition", and no amount of wishfull thinking of "de-partitioning" will come to fruition.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

ShauryaT wrote
Is that the goal, to gain territory, through war, that by itself was never the issue.
Another angle is the complete lack of direction, and attitudes as to what to do with Pakistan. This comes from the peculiar brand of secularism that we have in India. This is actually a vacuum of ideologies and faiths in the space of the "state". Such a space gets hijacked by determined aggressive faiths. On the other hand, because there is no foundational core of beliefs, attitudes towards competing faiths for dominance cannot be clearly formed or spelt out - leading to total lack of purpose - leading to ambivalent and directionless reactive policy only towards Pakistan.
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5405
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ShauryaT »

brihaspati wrote:
ShauryaT wrote
Is that the goal, to gain territory, through war, that by itself was never the issue.
Another angle is the complete lack of direction, and attitudes as to what to do with Pakistan. This comes from the peculiar brand of secularism that we have in India. This is actually a vacuum of ideologies and faiths in the space of the "state". Such a space gets hijacked by determined aggressive faiths. On the other hand, because there is no foundational core of beliefs, attitudes towards competing faiths for dominance cannot be clearly formed or spelt out - leading to total lack of purpose - leading to ambivalent and directionless reactive policy only towards Pakistan.
And to many other issues. What you have written is what I was pointing to in part. Capabilities need to be built across the board - economic, defense, political, (both geo and internal). At the same time there needs to be a corresponding clarity of purpose and a sense of our place, stemming from who we are. Secularism in India is a weak response of weak and ignorant minds (this is not just a statement, but a conclusion after volumes of works read on the matter).

Both, the general building of capabilities and a new framework are long term projects. One cannot wait for the other. Building a new framework is also part of what I will term as a political capability. Job number one here, is to de-dhimmify and de-macualay the Hindu mind. Just political will alone, does not cut it.

e.g: There was political will in the BJP governement to provide a fitting response to Kandahar and in Parakram, but my readings suggest, it is lack of capabilities that stopped them - lack of offensive capabilities, geo-political, economic, internal and most of all the lack of a sustainable political goal, worthy of the risks on the table.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

The question is that of a comprehensive assault on all fronts - ideological, and material. Such a comprehensive assault takes on the internal dissent and opposition to hammering out a consensus, to build material capability overcoming international and domestic opposition. What we see now, is the citing of the ideological problems as leading to impossibility of the material buildup - and material problems leading to impossibility of building up ideological consensus. Both can be and should be part of a strategic leaderships' agenda - simultaneously.
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

An interesting question was raised on the Elections thread. But on a longer trem - the question is can the forces now crystallized around Mayavatiji and the BSP even come together or merge with the forces represented by the BJP?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by ramana »

brihaspati wrote:An interesting question was raised on the Elections thread. But on a longer trem - the question is can the forces now crystallized around Mayavatiji and the BSP even come together or merge with the forces represented by the BJP?

yes they can if the DIE die out. Let me clarify. The Macaulayite Education (M E) transfers the guilt of the societal subjugation on to BJP which can be corrected by the removal of DIE thought process. Throughout history the social gropus enjoyed upward mobility thorugh the process of Sanskritization. ME stopped this.

Mayawati has already forged new alliances in UP which brought her to the top at State level.

The forces of ME product are the DIE esconced in the INC. If it does badly its possible to shatter the image.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21234
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Prem »

May be BJP should sacrifice power and support Mayawati from outside. Red and Greens are bigger threat to nationals security than any foreign power. 5 years of Mayawati with BJP support will uproot many Political, social, economic assumptions and give us new fresh start equal to 47 event .
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by brihaspati »

The problem will be replication of the UP tactic on a larger scale all over the country. I do not think the Mayavati formula will work in the rest of the country. It will not even work in Bihar, and WB. UP was reformatted for a long time under the Sultanate, and the Sharqi's of Jaunpur. It has a long history of fracture and ultimate preponderance of "survivalists" who will swing at micro-opportunism. It will only be dragged along if the rest of the country swings in a certain direction. So the UP method cannot be an outline for leadership of the whole of India.

Need to think of merging the two trends together. But it may mean removal of the current sets of leadership - for they would try to prevent the merger as loss of "constituency" for personal power.
Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4268
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Strategic leadership for the future of India

Post by Rudradev »

brihaspati wrote:An interesting question was raised on the Elections thread. But on a longer trem - the question is can the forces now crystallized around Mayavatiji and the BSP even come together or merge with the forces represented by the BJP?
In the immediate term, by consolidating around issues of mutual interest. For example, reservations for Muslims. Nobody will fight this as hard as the Dalits (now that they have to share reservations with OBCs anyway, and the Supreme Court has capped reservations at 50%, they will lose the most by implementation of the Sachar recommendations).

Issue-based consolidation will provide the common ground, and experience of issue-based joint maneuvers will engender the mutual confidence and trust required to take things further.
Locked